Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/22 for details.
Options

GM News, New Models and Market Share

15152545657631

Comments

  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    What have they done with those billions of dollars?

    Driven up the price of food, putting pressure on family budgets and probably tipping many into foreclosure. With the high prices of corn many farm corporations and commodities traders made a lot of money, they otherwise wouldn't.

    Oh, and they decreased everyone's mpg.

    On another note, if GM goes bankrupt they default on a lot of debt; but even if they get a loan this still may be defined as a default on all their debt!

    http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/Creation-car-czar-could-trigger/story.aspx- ?guid=%7B2650E125%2D00B8%2D4C6C%2D8425%2D4DF2FA1A15AD%7D
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Exactly. 15 billion buys an awful lot of asphalt. Sure, it may suck, but work is work, and our infrastructure is a far FAR better thing to be wasting money on. In fact, the work programs in the 30s and 40s did exactly that - they literally paved and powered the way to our modern economy.
  • jae5jae5 Member Posts: 1,206
    Thanks Kernick, agreed. I'm not sure where 62 is getting his information but it's a little flawed. I'm not sure if he's basing everything on an antiquated form of JIT or on suppliers that aren't diversified and they supply one component 100% to one OEM. While they may have one supplier for shocks, one supplier for glass, one for an IP door, it doesn't mean only that one supplier can make that shock, or glass or that IP door or stamping or injection-mold tool. As you know, when designing these parts many suppliers quote the product or tooling so it's not like another supplier couldn't undertake that business.

    And in terms of the his example of door trim, if what he said was correct we would have never picked up the Hummer H1 business years ago (at a previous employer, led the team that updated, designed and built the interior tooling for the entire vehicle, as well as supply the interior panels. The original supplier also stayed in business as they continued to make the basic panels, as well as replacement parts but eventually got out of the business and we took over their parts production.) as well as other businesses. And any OEM (or supplier) that's worth anything will stay in touch with its suppliers and know when trouble's brewing so they can make the appropriate moves, i.e. bank parts and search to obtain another supplier before that one goes out of business. And because of the way we designed the tooling and lines we were able to be flexible and make quick changes for military versus civilian trim, as with our other heavy truck interiors for the other OEMs. But I will agree somewhat with '62 in that with the large stamping & heat seal dies, presses and injection molding machines it can take a little bit to get them torndown, moved and back up and running again. They can be some tempermental SOBs at times ;)

    Most suppliers diversified years ago when these OEMS, particularly Chrysler, was pounding us with crazy cost reductions - they essentially wanted top-notch parts for practically nothing. Some even "suggested" to go to low-cost labor countries or lose business.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    I'm not sure where 62 is getting his information but it's a little flawed. I'm not sure if he's basing everything on an antiquated form of JIT or on suppliers that aren't diversified and they supply one component 100% to one OEM. While they may have one supplier for shocks, one supplier for glass, one for an IP door, it doesn't mean only that one supplier can make that shock, or glass or that IP door or stamping or injection-mold tool. As you know, when designing these parts many suppliers quote the product or tooling so it's not like another supplier couldn't undertake that business.

    That is not what I was trying to say. GM does not have one supplier for seats. They use all 3. So EACH supplier has ~33% of their business with GM. (GM has ~25% of vehicles sold, therefore if split between 3 suppliers each would have ~33% of their business at GM). If GM had only one seat supplier then that one supplier would be 100% GM and all the others had no GM business. Not the way it is. GM works to diversify among multiple suppliers but not for each model, but among all their vehicles.

    So if GM quit buying seats all 3 suppliers would have a sudden stoppage of 33% of whatever business they have left. Sorry but in today's climate very few if any suppliers could take a sudden drop in that kind of volume. The OEM's would have to send boatloads of money to each of those suppliers. Now multiply this by all suppliers of parts to the OEM's. The money would be huge and only Toyota and Honda have that kind of cash available.

    Now the other reason given why this would not happen is that the other OEM's would increase their volume to make up the difference. And this is true in the long term but there is already a huge supply of vehicles out there and IF one of the big 3 went under the country would cough real loud and sales of all vehicles would plummet even more. I do not see any of the OEM's suddenly increasing their volume 25%. So there would be a cascading effect of suppliers going under and it only takes one to shut down a plant.

    And to move the tools from a seat supplier to a new one takes weeks at the least. You just do not move tools and start building. Seats take lots of finesse to get it just right. There is a lot of hand work that needs to be tuned in.

    If you watched my link you would know that I am not just making this up. The import OEM's also believe this will probably happen.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The import OEM's also believe this will probably happen.

    I would imagine that Toyota, Honda and Ford have a good handle on their suppliers. They are probably letting them know that there may be an uptick in demand if GM closes their doors. If some of the suppliers are weak or mainly supply GM they will probably bite the bullet. You are assuming that demand for those that are left will jump by 25%. What percentage is GM selling now. Last year it was only about 23%. This year even less.

    My big question is what will GM do with all the overseas production that is making money? Seems in a C11 restructuring they could shed most of the US operations and keep the money making ones. They could build more in Mexico. My best GM trucks were all built in Mexico or Canada.

    I still don't think it will be near as big of a hit to the economy as the construction drop has been. It is so much smaller in size and scope. Most everyone has a car that needs one today. If they have to have a car the used car lots are overflowing. I believe that all auto building in the USA could stop for one year and we would not be in dire straits for transportation. The auto industry shut down for 5 years during WW2 and we survived and came out stronger.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    The auto industry shut down for 5 years during WW2 and we survived and came out stronger.

    Thats great. Now you want to start a war where we need to change over GM's plants so they can stay in business. Hey, GM would probably be for that. Would Toyota?
  • dtownfbdtownfb Member Posts: 2,918
    Agree with your rationale but I think this raises another question: do we have too many suppliers given the current market and foreseeable market? Will new car sales return to 16M+? I don't see it happening for at least another decade. I think the past year and half has had an impact on most Americans. People are really re-evaluating their lives and what is important. buying a new car every 3-4 years is not very important no matter how many deals they throw at you.
  • dtownfbdtownfb Member Posts: 2,918
    We also had fewer drivers. Most households only had one car. Plus I think we are trying to get our selves out a war right now.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    Plus, back in those days, people tended not to commute as far, and there were more public transportation options available. The idea of the suburb, and long commutes, hadn't really caught on yet.

    And while cars have come a long way since 1942, I think those old cars were easier to nurse along. If you had some old 30's clunker that was on its last legs, you could still manage to find a way to limp it along indefinitely if you had to. They were simple enough that there wasn't a lot to break, and they were usually easy to fix. Nowadays though, if you have some late 90's clunker that's on its last legs, you might as well just stick a fork in it, because it's done!
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Will new car sales return to 16M+? I don't see it happening for at least another decade. I think the past year and half has had an impact on most Americans.

    Yes they will return to 16M. The experts (sorry, the ones actually in the business of looking at the car business) say that the pent up demand of a couple years of 10 million a year will bring this country out of the recession/depression with huge up swings in sales. Sure today many will keep their cars a couple years longer but does anyone really think that a 2 car family will suddenly go to the one car family of the 50's? Not gonna happen. And once the money starts flowing they will buy again. So we will have a big uptick in the first couple years out of the recession but it will probably not be going higher than 16 million in the long term.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    The Swedish government has decided to provide its ailing auto industry
    with a $3.4-billion support package.

    The plan offers credit guarantees, emergency loans and research funds to
    boost companies in the "Swedish automotive cluster," the government
    said.

    Swedish automakers Volvo and Saab, which are owned by Ford Motor Co. and
    General Motors Corp., respectively, employ about 20,000 people in
    Sweden.
  • dtownfbdtownfb Member Posts: 2,918
    Yes they will return to 16M. The experts (sorry, the ones actually in the business of looking at the car business) say that the pent up demand of a couple years of 10 million a year will bring this country out of the recession/depression with huge up swings in sales

    After the past several months, I have little faith in anyone who feels they can predict anything dealing with the financial or consumer market. Not until unemployment returns to sub 5% and there is clear evidence that the economy is growing, people are not going to saddle themselves with a $25k+ car loan. I hope I am wrong but I'm hearing too many people who have exponentially more money than i do saying this.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    After the past several months, I have little faith in anyone who feels they can predict anything dealing with the financial or consumer market. Not until unemployment returns to sub 5% and there is clear evidence that the economy is growing, people are not going to saddle themselves with a $25k+ car loan. I hope I am wrong but I'm hearing too many people who have exponentially more money than i do saying this.

    No problem there. Once things look like they have hit bottom (and I sure do not know when this will be but it will come) people will loosen up their purse strings and start buying. This will cause hiring and more buying and then the economy will start gong back up. Cars will then start selling in higher numbers and the cycle goes on.
  • dtownfbdtownfb Member Posts: 2,918
    I hope you are right and i am wrong on this one.
  • nwngnwng Member Posts: 663
    still banking on people rushing to buy trucks and suvs? people were buying what they "want" in the last few years by tapping into their home equities and cheap,easy credit. That's not gonna happen for a long time. For the most part, noncommercial use trucks and suvs are "lifestyle" vehicles. You really need to tow a boat/jetskis/trailers? Same with cuvs. GM cannot sustain just by selling cars that are priced under $25k, no matter how many they sold. If the economy picks up, so does gas prices. The "pent-up" demand buyers will still remember the $4 gas and you think when they look at a 19 mpg behemoth and won't have 2nd, 3rd, 4th thoughts about getting it? That on top of the larger monthly payment?
  • jae5jae5 Member Posts: 1,206
    And to move the tools from a seat supplier to a new one takes weeks at the least. You just do not move tools and start building. Seats take lots of finesse to get it just right. There is a lot of hand work that needs to be tuned in.

    Apparently you didn't read my response fully as I stated I agreed with you in terms of moving tools and the like. As I stated I know you can't just undo a couple of bolts, snatch the tools out and put them in another location in a day or a week. I deal with this on an almost daily basis. One of my duties is to design flex cells in our manufacturing facilities, as well as working with the mold and tooling makers when I do product design. And am well-aware of seating and interiors, as well as exterior and underhood components.

    But the point is, you act as though if GM goes down, or files Chap. 11, most or all suppliers would go under immediately and that is simply not the case. And using that reasoning, there must be some suppliers cleaning out their offices now since GM is getting consulting and going over options for possible BK.

    You also miss the point most are making that GM and for the most part Ford and Chrysler believed in their own hype and didn't change their business models & arrogant thinking for decades and it's now biting them in the butt.

    To not have any type of contingency plan for when the 16M vehicles/year parade ended was stupid, plan and simple. I mean, it's basic common sense. If you continue to sell into a very high market eventually that market is going to reach it's peak, become fully saturated and start to decline. Eventually everone is going to have a vehicle and not need or maybe not want to trade, so then what do you do?

    To think they could continue to build SUVs / Trucks and that fuel would be cheap forever, dumb. There should have been a plan in place, i.e. small cars, for when the bang goes bust. Oh, I forgot, you can't make money with small cars. Did they not learn anything from the 70s?

    To believe that people will continue to buy their product no matter what, not too bright. Did they not see the huge push in incentives just to get people to buy the new cars and a higher demand in people buying their used cars? The thinking on the street when purchasing GM vehicles (and Ford & Chrysler) was buy one that was a year or two old, due to the huge depreciation. The new Malibu and CTS can't change this alone.

    To think they could bring also-rans or just-good-enoughs to market and not continue to lose market share, not smart. You can't bring something to the market that just merely or barely competes, it must exceed the current competition and be able to give any new competition a run for its money, taking into account what the competition may bring to the table in a year or two. And you must keep it fresh. Again, the new Malibu and CTS can't do this alone.

    Not trying to be harsh but come on, this has been a long time coming and is WAY overdue, like our governor Blago getting busted.
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    As I stated I know you can't just undo a couple of bolts, snatch the tools out and put them in another location in a day or a week.

    Thanks for the info. on that. But I saw a video from gagrice the other day, where the latest production lines are able to build multiple vehicles on the same line (a Brazil Ford plant). Knowing about Toyota manufacturing and other Japanese methods, I would asume that many suppliers and assemblers can make quick changes. (I subscribe to Assembly magazine, which is available on line also).

    And I figured this to be true of smaller components. If I were to do a pareto of parts in a vehicle I would guess that 80% of the parts are small enough that I could change the tooling on a machine. So when talking about the typical supplier, I'm figuring the typical supplier is dealing with knobs, switches, relays, carpet, mats, tires, wheels, shocks, springs, nuts, bolts, water pump, belts, plugs, bulbs .... So my impression, and correct me if I'm wrong is that these are all things that can easily be switched from 1 part number to another.

    Now I do agree that the suppliers of the body pieces, and engine blocks and such do have some issues switching tooling. but I would think this is a minority of suppliers.

    Otherwise totally agree.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    For the full month, GM doesn't expect sales to be higher than year-ago figures, but they could be stronger than they have been for the past 60 days, according to the memo.

    "We have great incentives in the market and our December sales pace has been strong compared to October and November," LaNeve wrote.

    December is traditionally a strong month for sales, according to J.D. Power and Associates. Power forecasts December U.S. retail sales will total 710,000, up from 595,000 in October and 668,000 in November.

    Trucks are hauling GM sales out of the trough.

    GM spokesman Pete Ternes said sales of GM's pickups, the Chevrolet Silverado and GMC Sierra, are leading the way, and sales of cars, especially small cars, are slumping.

    "We are seeing sales of trucks pick up because of [lower] fuel prices. Cars are slowing down because entry-level buyers are affected by the credit crunch," Ternes said.

    GM believes one factor driving December sales is the need of some buyers to replace worn-out vehicles.

    "We think the market is so low that people are in vehicle-replacement mode," Ternes said. "People can't wait anymore."


    http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081212/ANA05/812129946/1078-
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Another biased auto article from an auto related concern

    The warnings from Chrysler LLC and General Motors about impending collapse were not a bluff. Now that a minority of the U.S. Senate has blocked any aid to the auto industry, all Americans must rely on the administration to lend the automakers money so they can help fix a damaged economy, rather than drive it down to awful depths.

    As White House spokeswoman Dana Perino correctly said this morning, "A precipitous collapse of this industry would have a severe impact on our economy, and it would be irresponsible to further weaken and destabilize our economy at this time."

    The White House reversed itself this morning. It said it is now considering using some of the $700 billion in financial rescue money for the auto industry. This could be one of Bush's finest hours.

    The sudden failure of the industry, superimposed over a global credit meltdown and a terrifyingly deep recession, would be catastrophic. Look beyond the automakers to their suppliers and dealers, and the communities in which domestic auto plants drive the local economy. Millions of people would be thrown out of work, would lose health insurance and would lose the ability to pay taxes.


    http://www.autonews.com/article/20081212/ANA02/812129960/1200
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    After the past several months, I have little faith in anyone who feels they can predict anything dealing with the financial or consumer market.

    The fact is that economists are like weather forecasters. They can predict the next short period because it is usually correlated to right now. Once you go out a ways it becomes voodoo and astrology. I'm not being facetious. The systems are way too complex for any modeling to accurately predict them, and there can be unexpected events that disrupt everything.

    As an example, a year ago we were going to have a mild downturn in early 2008 and then be recovering right now. Obviously totally wrong.

    Another example that often occurs is that some company X that has many economic analyst "buy" recommendations for its stock announces a surprising bit of negative news such as low sales, etc. The stock begins to tank. The economists then change their ratings to "sell". They rarely do this PRIOR to the change!

    The auto industry example is that according to high profile study performed by "knowledgeable" analysts, if the D3 go bankrupt then all auto production stops in the whole country, as the suppliers go belly up, too. This is supposed to last for a year and would even shut down Toyota and Honda who depend upon these suppliers. Yet today after the auto bailout broke down, and before the Bush administration said they would use other funds for the bailout, the stock market was only down a max of 190 points, which in recent months is a normal daily fluctuation. The market is the sum of all the knowledge and expectations publicly known. If all auto production was REALLY going to shut down and 3 million jobs REALLY were going to go away, would the market have been down only 190 points?

    The argument of economic Armageddon is overblown. Supposedly the reason the senators from Tenessee, Alabama, etc. are against the bailout is to favor their foreign nameplate auto manufacturers. But if a D3 bankruptcy would really halt ALL domestic production, why would those senators oppose the bailout? Doesn't make any sense.
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    If all auto production was REALLY going to shut down and 3 million jobs REALLY were going to go away, would the market have been down only 190 points?

    Yes, the expert I heard on CNN said something about the stock market today like "just turn your TV set off today, don't even look". The markets finished up 1-2%.

    I also can't predict the future, but I do know that when people tell me they can and they can see that if A happens B thru Z will happen well that's not going to happen in a dynamic environment.

    Let me explain: forecasters typically predict events are like dominos, basically not moving. In reality, when people are involved and can make decisions the dominos "move" - they REACT to prior events. If GM goes under, all the auto manufacturers do not sit there and do nothing; they take actions - like buying suppliers, finding other sources, building safety stocks prior. Governments take actions. The consumers react. And you know the reactions by corporations who have billions to lose per $, will be to stabilize things.

    Toyota, Honda, Ford, BMW, Mercedes, Nissan, Mitsubishi, Subaru, VW and a few others have the combined resources, and the will to keep the U.S. supply system going without Chrysler and GM. The "experts" do not put enough thought into what these companies would do, and they certainly will be interested in gaining the former customers of GM and Chrysler. GM and Chrysler are unfortunately nothing more than the lame of the herd, who will die and the rest of the herd will flourish.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    The market stayed even because they knew Bush was going to give the money. Futures were way down before opening but WH let out they would not let the big 3 go under.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    The market stayed even because they knew Bush was going to give the money.

    I don't believe that was announced until a few hours after the market had opened.

    What is your thought on the fact that if all domestic production would shut down, the "southern senators" would not logically oppose the bailout if it would harm production in their states?
  • dave8697dave8697 Member Posts: 1,498
    If we are the country that eats their young as you claim, tlong, why do we have hospitals? why do we have unemployment compensation? why do we need police? Social security, medicine, doctors, teachers...?

    My experience with GM cars is that they are certainly not inferior. Last time I checked, the D3 made more excellent vehicles here than Japan does. Go check the owner's reviews for the 2009 Malibu. Funny how the Edmunds editors give it a 6.9 score and the 25 owners give it a 9.6 score. One person not living with it vs 25 people who do. You seem convinced by the one.

    '74 Vega? Your knowledge of American engineering and quality is from 35 years ago?

    California emerged stronger in the 90's?....and is now in worse shape than GM. They want a gift, not a loan. Take away their excess share of defense spending and it would be a worse disaster. Wait till the auto supported workers there need to go on unemployment. what will Arnold do then?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    We had the dot.com bubble that encouraged buying big SUVs. Then the Housing bubble that encouraged people to buy fancy cars with their home equity, then the oil bubble caught people off guard and many bought econoboxes. What could possibly bubble that would get people buying again? Maybe a war. Nothing else to bubble. Only down hill as we get everyone to move into a cave and give up their GHG spewing cars. I don't see cars gaining past glory ever again. I don't think the market is near the bottom. Nothing to stop the fall.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    My experience with GM cars is that they are certainly not inferior. Last time I checked, the D3 made more excellent vehicles here than Japan does. Go check the owner's reviews for the 2009 Malibu.

    Ultimately what matters is not your experiences or my experiences. It is the aggregated experiences of the American car buyers. And those people are voting with their purchasing choices. On balance, they disagree with you. If more people felt your way the market share of the D3 would be growing.

    '74 Vega? Your knowledge of American engineering and quality is from 35 years ago?

    I'll tell you that it predisposed me against GM. I bought a used VW bug for $700 in 1974 - my first car. My friend plopped the entire $4k he earned at McDonald's on a brand new 1974 Vega. We carpooled to college. After 3 years His Vega was rusting through down to HOLES around his windshield and rear window - in Southern California. After 55K miles his engine block FAILED. My VW Bug was driven over 150K miles after buying it used, and I sold it for the price I paid. After owning it 18 years it still had no rust.

    I could go on about my sister in law's Citation, or other friends' GM vehicles. Safe to say that the more recent experiences were dismal as well. THIS IS THE PRICE OF SHODDY PRODUCTS. THIS IS THE LENGTH OF PEOPLE'S MEMORIES. That's why GM will have tremendous difficulty winning back customers, even with outstanding vehicles. It is very sad, it would be nice to be proud of world-class American car makers.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Last time I checked, the D3 made more excellent vehicles here than Japan does.

    The buying public doesn't seem to agree with you. Seems that the Japanese have more "hits" while the D3 have more "misses." Let's have a look at some of those

    Chevy:
    Malibu, Silverado, Traverse, Avalanche, Tahoe - Hit
    Cobalt, Impala, Equinox, Aveo, Colorado, Trailblazer - miss
    I suppose I could put in the Suburban, but it's lately number 1 in it's category because there isn't anyone to be #2

    Dodge/Chrysler:
    RAM Truck, Caravan, Wrangler, Grand Cherokee - Hit
    Everything else - Miss
    Talk about sad.

    Ford:
    Fusion, Flex, Escape, Edge, Taurus, Mustang, Expedition - Hit
    F-Series - Grand-Slam
    Ranger, Focus - Miss
    OK, you can tell Ford is turning itself around at least. The Focus started off great, but it's about time for a redesign. Same with Escape.

    Toyota:
    Corolla, Camry, RAV4, Avalon, Prius, Highlander, 4Runner, Sequioa, Sienna - Hit
    Tundra, Land Cruiser - Miss
    Lots of hits and very few misses.

    Honda:
    Fit, Civic, Accord, CR-V, Pilot, Ridgeline - Hit
    Oddesy - Miss (Kinda)
    Has Honda really even HAD a ""miss" since the Passport?

    Nissan:
    Versa, Sentra, Altima, Frontier, Rogue, Murano, X-Terra - Hit
    Titan, Maxima, Pathfinder - Miss
    You can tell Nissan is the low man of the J3 but they still tend to hit rather than miss.

    There's a pattern to be seen here too. When it comes to trucks the domestics rarely "miss." They build great trucks. The imports have had more troubles along those lines, but they tend to be much better at cars than the domestics. I wonder if GM should just get out of the car business? Pinning all hopes on the (very well executed) Malibu is ignoring the fodder that is Cobalt, or the garbage that is Aveo, for example. The Malibu is nice, but it's ONE CAR, out of how many duds? GM needs to show more of a pattern with the Cruze, whatever replaces the Impala, etc, then people's perceptions might change. Until then, Chevy dealers will sell tons of Malibus so they'll have plenty of room to store all the Cobalts, Aveos, and Impalas that no one wants.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    My experience is GM is loosing market share because more people each day disagree with you.

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Don't for get the premium brands like BMW and Merc. Until 2008 CTS, nothing in the U.S. performed even remotely close if you like driving performance over a disconnected pillow ride. The AMG and M brands are so far ahead of engine precision it's scary.

    Regards,
    OW
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    I don't believe that was announced until a few hours after the market had opened.

    exactly. Market was way down before the announcement and then during the day it got back what it lost.

    As far as the senators maybe they are looking at the future 2/3 years out. Take the pain now but in 3 years the domestics are gone and their states start getting all the assembly plants. Plus I do believe they, as Republicans, feel they are doing the correct capitalistic method of letting the weak fail.

    They did seem to agree to the loan IF the big 3 became competitive.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Impala a miss? Its one of the top selling cars.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Yeah, but is it selling at a profit, or is it selling because they priced it at 50 cents on the dollar?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I keep reading how great the CTS is. I am sorry. I think that is a butt ugly car from every angle. I would take the "E" class Mercedes without even thinking twice. All Caddy has going in my book is the Escalade. And my wife thinks their ugly so it is a no go for us. The CTS is not as ugly as the Aztek. But very close. Add to that you can get an E320 CDI that will get you an easy 37 MPG out on the highway. What does GM have in a luxury car that is even close? If we are going on looks alone, I would take the Genesis over any of the others. The Koreans are going to pass up the Japanese before long.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Impala a miss? Its one of the top selling cars.

    That maybe, but it certainly would be near the bottom of my shopping list. How many of those are fleet sales. Probably 50%. Would be a decent company car though. I'm sure the Impala is a reliable car, but near a zero on the desirability chart with it's push rod v6s and 4 speed trans, bland styling, and cramped rear accomodations. No thanks.

    We're still suffering with an '07 Grand Prix that my wife has for a company car. I don't want any car that shares even one part from this disgrace of a car. I can't even begin to describe what a horrible car the GP is. It represents all that has been wrong with GM cars. At least GM decided to stop building it, because doing so does absolutely nothing for GMs image/reputation.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Until 2008 CTS, nothing in the U.S. performed even remotely close if you like driving performance over a disconnected pillow ride. The AMG and M brands are so far ahead of engine precision it's scary.

    At least in that area GM is starting to catch up....quite frankly a bit faster than Ford (Lincoln is still a bit "pillowy"). Caddy has made some great strides but so far very little of that technology, if any, has trickled down to Chevy and Pontiac. Ford, on the other hand, seems to be going from the ground up, juicing up Fusion, Festiva, then bumping that technology up to Lincoln.

    The result of this is that Ford's premium brand isn't advancing as fast but their mainstream, high sales volume stuff is taking off. GM may be looking for a "trickle-down economy" thing which we've seen doesn't always work, though it's at least made Cadillac worth something.
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    Last time I checked, the D3 made more excellent vehicles here than Japan does.

    Dave, if youre right then the D3 wont be losing this much market share. The public has spoken, the majority disagree with you, bud.

    Or are you saying the public are brainwashed to buy foreign? Theyre not that stupid you know.

    Personally there are very few D3 products I can recognize as excellent. Some that are good enough are, like bpizzuti mentioned, related mostly to trucks. The only ones I dare call excellent are:
    GM - Corvette, Tahoe (despite the fuel econ), Silverado, CTS
    Ford - Fseries, Mustang, Flex (though somewhat overpriced)
    Chrysler - Caravan, Wrangler, Ram, GrandCherokee

    11 excellent models out of all domestics of almost 100 models in total isnt what I'd call more than the Japanese. Yes there are more when you include the "good enough" ones, but we're talking excellent here.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Dave, if youre right then the D3 wont be losing this much market share. The public has spoken, the majority disagree with you, bud.

    I have to agree there. I know several people that have been life long D3 customers, some for 50 years that just bought their first Toyota this year.
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    Yes the Corvette is a hit, but what does GM keep doing? - raising prices. They are now pushing $49K for a base model automatic. And while you can argue it is only 95% of the performance, what is the competition doing - the redesigned Nissan 370Z is hitting the markets at about $31K base.
  • obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    What does GM have in a luxury car that is even close? If we are going on looks alone, I would take the Genesis over any of the others.

    LMAO!! They say that this car was built for the 50 and over crowd that you qualify for. I'd take this car anyday over a Genesis, Toyota, Honda, even the new Nissan.

    image
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Impala a miss? Its one of the top selling cars.

    Rocky was saying his brother bought a $23k Impala for $17k. That is not a winner for Chevy. That is just dumping to get rid of excess inventory. I realize that all cars are going for under MSRP. Only a dolt would pay full price for any car in this market.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Well yah, I would too. The Corvette is the best thing GM has built forever..... I will be sad to see the name change to Chery Corvette. Though it does have a ring to it.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    >Funny how the Edmunds editors give it a 6.9 score and the 25 owners give it a 9.6 score.

    The interesting bias here is that everyone has someway of supporting their dislike for GM. If someone can't criticize them for their large size cars, they criticize them because they don't make a specialty high performance car that suits them since they like a BMW 327.5 XXCcii model and GM nor the other US makers don't have anything to compete.

    Of course here is where the joke is. Neither does Honda, Toyota, Nissan, etc.

    For years GM haters have criticized that GM didn't have an exact car to compete with Accord and Camry. But if they made a car that was exactly a competitor it never would be good enough to the afficianado who liked their 1999 Camry or their 2001 Accord; the GM product would always have a flaw, e.g., the grain on the plastic wasn't suitable, the A-Pillar wasn't as large as the new Accord's after 2003, the 4-cylinder didn't run 9000 rpm. There was always something else placed as the most important missing feature. Next if GM made a car slightly below or above the size of the "competition" that was criticized as a flaw.

    I frankly asked why GM advertises on Edmunds because of the continuing negativity nurtured in most discussions. Even Toyota seemed to try to manage talk in some site's forum about their warts, especially in re the sludge issue. Most businesses wouldn't have wasted money to help support such negativity.

    Somehow some people have decided that everyone is a 20-something who wants a car that will do 0-60 in 4.3 sec., will corner at 2 gs, will ride like a gokart, etc. Obviously from the sales of different models that aren't tuner material, most buyers want a more practical car. But somehow some people keep foisting their personal choice (or mischoice) onto everyone else's needs list.

    If something happened to one car tomorrow, I'd go buy a Malibu or Cobalt tomorrow. They are welcome to my buyer share in return for the good vehicles I've had through the years.

    I'm tired of hearing that selling cars by reducing advertising price is a negative (check Kohls pricing model) or that having fleets buy your car because they recognize a quality product that will be durable and they won't be overcharged by the selling company because the selling company is doing them a favor by letting them look at and buy their brand (a local Toyota dealership comes to mind)

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Of course here is where the joke is. Neither does Honda, Toyota, Nissan, etc.

    You are right. None of the majors offer what I want. I will never again buy a new gas vehicle. I have had it with gas guzzling low torque engines. At this time only VW and MB offer vehicles I would even consider with diesel engines. Soon BMW will join them. The big 3 offer diesel in every level of vehicle across the pond from US. They only want to sell US the gas guzzling dregs from their drawing boards. I was a GM fan until buying that 2005 GMC hybrid PU truck. It was a big disappointment and nothing since seems to have improved. I was fired up about the 2007 models until I drove one of those noisy POC trucks. It was worse than my 2005 GMC.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Impala and Grand Prix desirebility = -10

    On a scale from 1 to 10.

    GM always keep junk well past its scrap value over the years. I had a '97 and no changes over 11 years? ROTFLMAO.

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Add me but I'm in the 30 year club until the 2006 3-series...I wanted a car that takes corners without slamming into the wall...and now a CR-V which will be my daughter's car in 2 years...I looked at the Equinox but the interior sickened me and then it cost more :confuse:

    Oh well, let's see what happens post-detonation!

    image

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    The GM dislike is quite appropriate as a result of the products they offer. I am quite happy to see the coming changes. You?

    Regards,
    OW
  • bvdj84bvdj84 Member Posts: 1,724
    Okay, I just got an email from GM, and their email is so sugar coated, its sickening. At least spare me the extra lies. An ad would be fine without the lies.

    _____________________________________________
    Dear *****,

    Thank you for being a GM customer. There's been a lot of discussion about the auto industry over the past few weeks, and I want to make sure you know the facts about GM. This is important because with all the media coverage of late about our company and industry, it is evident that there is much misinformation and many very dated perceptions being communicated. The truth and the facts are always helpful. First, we're building our best cars and trucks ever, and we're committed to being the best car company on the planet.

    Higher quality.

    * We back our quality with the Best Coverage in America:
    A 100,000-Mile/5-Year Transferable Powertrain Limited Warranty.1 Plus, Roadside Assistance1 and Courtesy Transportation Programs.1 This coverage is superior to Toyota, Honda, Nissan and Ford. We believe in our quality and reliability, and we back it up! (HAHAHA!!)

    * The 2008 Chevy Malibu and Chevy Silverado were the "Highest Ranked Midsize Car and Large Pickup in Initial Quality" according to J.D. Power and Associates2

    Notice, they did not mention any other cars, because there are so few many quality cars. Edmunds reviews reflect these reviews too.
    __________________________________________

    Please, seriously, this is the best they can do, they do not offer the best cars on the planet! Other wise why are they so far under? Exactly. They do not offer the same level of attention to detail and quality on every single one of the cars! Only a few cars can validated as quality, the rest are just more production cars to bring in the cash OR sitting in the lot collecting dust.

    I am a little annoyed that they even emailed me. Its all lies. Sounds like I am really bashing them, but they created their own mess. First of I have a 08 GM product,
    (not by choice). Don't get me wrong, the car is actually pretty cool, its options, and it is fun to drive, I am have become to like it a bit, but I certainly don't have the same type of pride in it as my Accord.

    Soon I will move to an 08 Acura :) I also lease an 08 Jetta SE too, differences are amazing compared to the GM.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    These guys are in the industry too so they must also be biased. :P

    As the industry's outlook has deteriorated in recent months, executives at foreign car companies have said they want to see Detroit's cash-strapped automakers get through the crisis, noting that they all share the same network of suppliers.

    "We're joined at the hip with our Detroit brethren in manufacturing," said Irv Miller, group vice president and chief spokesman at Toyota Motor Corp.'s U.S. sales subsidiary. Whatever the U.S. government proposes to keep the U.S. automakers afloat, "we support it," Miller said.

    In the past few weeks, as senators from states with foreign transplants have grown more strident in their criticism of Detroit's top managers and the United Auto Workers union, executives from Japanese and German companies have tried to distance themselves from those sentiments.

    Honda executives made it clear last month that they didn't share the views expressed by Rep. Mike Pence, R-Ind., who said during the opening of Honda Motor Co.'s new assembly plant in Greensburg, Ind., that he would rather see the U.S. automakers file for bankruptcy than receive taxpayer money.

    Jeffrey Smith, assistant vice president for corporate affairs at American Honda, told reporters, "Honda supports measures that would maintain the short- and long-term viability and stability of the auto industry."

    Like his colleagues at Toyota, Smith noted that all automakers that have U.S. production facilities are "deeply and closely integrated at the supply base."

    In recent months, foreign automakers and parts suppliers have tried to work out contingency plans in the event of a collapse of one of Detroit's Big Three. But executives say they would not be able to shield themselves from the impact of an automaker's collapse because the number of distressed suppliers in North America already is in the hundreds.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    exactly. Market was way down before the announcement and then during the day it got back what it lost.

    Market was down max of 190 points. That's been pretty typical in past month or so. If D3 failures were really going to happen and the market believed it was a dire as the worst-case predictions then you'd see 500-1000 point drop. Most people are not believing that it would be nearly that bad.

    Again, there are lots of opinions. No way to know unless it happens, which we all hope it does not.
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,191
    And who exactly is buying that thing? Fleets, government, rentals. All of course at prices below profit.

    Problem with Impala and likes is not those are bad cars - they simply not enough for most at a given price point. They may be sufficient for many (like fleets and some less affluent or more cost-oriented customers) but at prices that are well below cost. And the circle closes.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

Sign In or Register to comment.