GM News, New Models and Market Share

andre1969

Well, at the time the 1977 Impala almost seemed like an automotive revolution. It was smaller than most midsized cars at the time, didn't weigh much more than some of the heavier compacts (like the Nova or Aspen Volare), yet had more interior room than the old-school full-sized mastodons that Ford and Chrysler were still selling.

The car, however, was not without its faults. GM started using the undersized THM200 transmission with the 305 V-8, although oddly, the 250-6cyl still used the sturdier THM350. The 305 and 350 had a weak bottom end and tended to lose crankshafts. However, overall the cars were still good enough that they consistently rated better-than-average in the reliability ratings, right up until 1984 when the 1977 models would have dropped off the charts. CR only kept reliability records for the previous 6 years in those days. And, none of those reliability issues would surface until a few years down the road, so they wouldn't appear in the "cons" column of an all-new car. And, other than the Vega, in those days, GM didn't usually botch a product launch, so the old mantra of "stay away from the first year design" hadn't quite caught on yet.

The car handled better than its peers, got better fuel economy, had better visibility, ease of entry/exit, etc. There was a lot to like at the time.

Other disadvantages I can think of were the loss of the hardtop body styles and the big-block engines. Now, Chevy had gotten rid of the hardtop coupe in the Impala/Caprice after 1975, but kept the 4-door hardtop through '76. And Pontiac/Olds/Buick kept their Catalina/Delta/LeSabre hardtop coupes through '76.

However, Consumer Reports never did like hardtops, because they usually have less interior room than their sedan counterparts, are often harder to get into and out of, and are more prone to squeaks, rattles, and leaks. So CR was probably happy to see them go.

CR also tended to not like big, guzzling engines, so I'm sure they were happier than a pig in slop to see the big GM 454's and 455's go the way of the dinosaur. And, truth be told, a 1977 Impala with a 350 was probably every bit as fast as a 1976 was with the 455. And a '77 Impala with a 305 was probably as quick as a '76 with the 350 had been.

Oh, here's one example of what I think was some CR bias, just to prove their point. In 1977 they did a comparison test of a 1977 Impala, against a 1977 LTD-II, 1977 Fury (or Monaco, can't remember which now) and a 1977 Cutlass Supreme. They were trying to make the point of how awesome this new downsized Chevy was, and comparing it to the old-school intermediates of the time.

Well, they got the Impala with a 305 V-8. The LTD-II had a 302, and the Fury/Monaco had a 318. All had around 140-145 hp and were good for 0-60 in around 12.5-13 seconds. However, the Cutlass Supreme came with a tiny 110 hp Olds 260 V-8, and managed 0-60 in something like 21 seconds!

The vast majority of Cutlasses that year came with the Olds 350 V-8, which was fairly powerful and adapted well to emissions controls, so it probably would have ended up smoking the Caprice. CR probably figured the 350 would have been an unfair advantage compared to the 305, 302, and 318. However, specifying one with the 260 really gave it an unfair disadvantage. However, if they wanted a Cutlass Supreme for that test, there was nothing else they could do, as there was no intermediate engine that year. If you wanted a V-8 you either got the 260, 350, or a 403.

To make that test more fair, CR should have gotten a Malibu, which could also be had with the 305. Or a LeMans, which had a 301.

andres3

As for the Prizm vs Corolla debate, who knows. Maybe there are different demographics between those customers and they have different expectations from the car or possibly don't treat it the same.

If he's talking about different reliability results, I'd agree that those could be different depending on demographics. If he's talking about their score from the written reviews on how great (or not) the vehicle is, I'd be shocked.

andre1969

If I were to buy domestic again, I would ream the dealership so hard at the first sign of trouble, I'm just better off avoiding that situation in my lifetime.

When I bought my 2012 Ram last month, I sort of came down a bit hard on the finance lady. She kept trying to push an extended warranty on me, but I told her that honestly, if the truck starts breaking down and becoming unreliable that early on, I'll probably get pissed off and dump it. And NOT replace it with another Dodge!

She didn't like that too much. She started telling me about how complicated cars are these days, and that it's good to have. I told her that I had bought an extended warranty on a 2000 Intrepid and never needed to use it once. She replied with about how cars are a lot different today compared to 2000, but I twisted that around to "Well, I hope a modern car is better built than a 2000 Intrepid!". :P

And, I don't mean that as a slam against the Intrepid, as mine was a pretty good car, and the second-gen was usually rated average by CR.

andres3

To make that test more fair, CR should have gotten a Malibu, which could also be had with the 305. Or a LeMans, which had a 301.

To be fair though, CR isn't the only publication to be accused by fanboys of not comparing apples to apples and oranges to oranges in car comparisons.

The fact that you knew they had selected the wrong engine in the Olds makes me think it is not unacceptable bias, as they have truthfully shared that information with you to make your own conclusions. Now if you show me that CR used a 110 HP Olds to publish a 0-60 time of 21 seconds, and then blatantly lied and said it was an Olds with a bigger and better engine to get that lousy time, I'll buy your argument of bias.

It's similar to another situation where I was arguing with someone in another forum here that Audi's were not necessarily slow in the corners due to their heavier AWD weight compared to say, a RWD Porsche Cayman R.

Originally, he was trying to point out that the Cayman S or R was faster than a TT or TTS, so I pointed out that the new TTRS was faster around a track than the Cayman R (as reported by some car mags out there), and that the TTRS was the fair comparison with that Porsche.

He countered with a link and stated that I was wrong; the link showing track times in Germany that indicated the Cayman R was faster than the Audi TTRS. Upon looking deerper into his link, I saw that it was an ancient 2009 TTRS, that wasn't even sold here in the US, and more importantly, was a previous generation with much less Horsepower than the current model.

Should I accuse the website of BIAS just because they hadn't published a current model TTRS' time around the track yet?

fintail

I believe it was user reviews. Anyway, google it

andres3

If it was user reviews, then it isn't CR bias, but perhaps CR subscriber bias? LOL. It isn't bias IMO, it's simply demographics.

My friend in HS had a Prizm, and it was flawlessly perfect in my opinion. At least the drivetrain and functionality of the car was perfect, but when you take crazy teenagers and friends around town, things do get broken and damaged which aren't necessarily the car's fault, but might get blamed on the car by an owner and/or CR subscriber.

For example.. two friends got in a tussle and someone's elbow knocked his Rear view mirror off the windshield. Other trim pieces had been kicked, abused, wrestled/fought on, and sure, there were a lot of trim and finish pieces that were loose, hanging, falling off, and such. So the drivetrain was able to handle geting to 100K miles being floored most everywhere he went, everyday he drove, but the interior did suffer some wear and tear from the abuse.

dieselone

I believe it was user reviews. Anyway, google it

I'd guess the sample size for the Corolla would have been much higher. Plus I'm willing to bet the average income/age of a Corolla buyer were different than a Prism.

I don't think it's much different than asking my neighbors about Mitt Romney, then drive 10 miles down the road to the university and ask the same question. I'm willing to bet the results will be different.

dieselone

My friend in HS had a Prizm,

I had a good friend that also had a Prism. His was a high trim level, leather, manual trans. It was a very nice car. Though his was repod so he didn't have it long enough to determine reliability. He liked it though.

fintail

I don't think the cars were *that* far apart in price, when new. No doubt the Corolla sold more, but both went to toaster buyers. It's not like we're talking Accent vs Rolls Phantom or something.

andres3

The prestige and satisfaction of owning a Toyota instead of a Geo did cost a couple thousand dollars, so it was significant.

Thinking about that, my Toyota has fallen from their bulletproof perch above all other automakers (except maybe Honda). They definitely have some GM disease going on.

dieselone

No doubt the Corolla sold more, but both went to toaster buyers. It's not like we're talking Accent vs Rolls Phantom or something.

True. It likely has more to do with sample size than anything else. I'd bet the Corolla sold in far more numbers and those customers were more likely sampled vs. a Prism.

I just saw a Chevy Prism on the road a little bit ago.

dieselone

Thinking about that, my Toyota has fallen from their bulletproof perch above all other automakers (except maybe Honda). They definitely have some GM disease going on.


While I've never owned a Toyota, their products have looked less appealing to me year after year. Though a buddy of mine just bought his wife a fully loaded Sienna and wow, that's an impressive minivan. But other than that, I'm not interested in any of their products.

keystonecarfan

Exactly which imported cars received a "pass" from Consumer Reports for recording 18 mpg fuel economy?

If the imports were DIRECT competitors to the Impala, and offered similar size and power, then the magazine is biased for dinging the Impala while letting competitors slide. But if they were bigger and/or more powerful cars than the Impala, then that is hardly proof of "bias."

The real problem is that, for too many years, the domestics were inferior to their direct competition. Don't blame Consumer Reports for pointing out the obvious. Also note that Consumer Reports wasn't the only publication noting this.

And, based on personal experience (which includes family members' GM cars), and the observations of independent mechanics and people working in the auction business, the bottom line is that Honda and Toyota have been, collectively, the most reliable makes out there. Don't blame the messenger. The good news is that Ford and, to a slightly lesser extent, GM have stepped up their game in recent years.

berri

I remember renting a few Prism's (maybe late 80's or early 90's?). As I recall, they were very similar to the Corolla except slightly different seats and Delco electronics in the Prism.

andre1969

In the first generation Prizm, which I think was 1989-92 (?) they even went so far as to change the area around the rear door and C-pillar. The Corolla had a quarter window built into the door, while the Prizm had the quarter window in the C-pillar, and the overall look was similar to the '87-91 Camry.

My memory could be fuzzy, but I seem to remember those Prizms as being a bit upscale from a Toyota Corolla. At least, I remember seeing them with sunroofs and leather interiors, while the Corollas were usually rather plain inside.

I also remember one local Chevy dealer trying to push Prizms out the door for $20K plus. They'd throw on aftermarket crap like ribs and wings and such, ADM, and suddenly the damn thing was priced about the same as a Lumina or even a base Caprice!

stever

"The GM PSA Global Strategic Alliance plans to launch the first of these new jointly developed models by the end of 2016, which will, it says, be created by using the best platforms and technologies from each partner. However, there's no word on how the resulting platform choice will fit in with GM's global platform strategy, which enables the Opel, Chevrolet and Buick brands, and others, to utilize the same architecture and plant tooling in factories across the world. If GM Europe uses PSA platforms, this strategy could be undermined.

At the same time, a PSA spokesperson told Edmunds that the French company has developed an all-new platform similar to Volkswagen's new modular MQB architecture, whose greater versatility will allow it to be used across models of a variety of sizes and a wider spread of segments. PSA says that each of the four projects will be led either by GM or the French company, but the allocation of responsibilities has yet to be determined.

Coincident with this announcement, PSA is also negotiating with the French government to win state aid."

GM, PSA Peugeot Citroen To Co-Develop Four New Models (Inside Line)

Freep.com says the deal will save GM about $2 billion over five years.

circlew

Excellent post. Following CR is better than blindly sticking by GM, F and C while they lost market share for excellent reasons.

Regards,
OW

berri

I seem to remember those Prizms as being a bit upscale from a Toyota Corolla.

I think that's a fair statement regarding the seats and interior, except for the electronics. I remember the radios sucked in the Prism rentals I had. I actually owned an 88 Corolla. The seats were typical, firm Japanese. But the radio and the switchgear in the Toyota seemed less flimsy even though it maybe looked a bit better styled in the Prism. The rentals I had looked a bit different under the hood too. Besides a Delco battery, maybe the alternator and the like was changed. For an around town car either would have been fine back then, but I think the Toyota had better resale.

andres3

I'm 100% believe that GM, F, and C MORE than earned every last one of their lost customers, they more than earned every lost bit of business.

uplanderguy

I remember renting a few Prism's (maybe late 80's or early 90's?). As I recall, they were very similar to the Corolla except slightly different seats and Delco electronics in the Prism.

uplanderguy

remember renting a few Prism's (maybe late 80's or early 90's?). As I recall, they were very similar to the Corolla except slightly different seats and Delco electronics in the Prism.

Weren't they assembled on the same line? I find it hard to believe that the Prizm had Delco electronics and the Corolla did not.

I remember my salesman trying to guide me to a Prizm demo when I wanted a new Cavalier. I didn't bite and was happy not to--got 129.6K miles out of the Cav and it had more to go...I just wanted a new Cav at employee cost IIRC.

I didn't like the looks of the Prizm--so "Toyota".

uplanderguy

I think most of the auto press has been biased toward imports for three decades.

Didn't have anything to do with reality, right? GM, Ford and Chrysler were far and above better than the imports for the last thirty years, right? They all lost market share because of those rags!

The auto mags review new cars, not used. They'd frequently mention 'tactile' things like switchwear that I really didn't care about as long as it worked, but wouldn't mention domestics' advantages in interior and luggage space, price, body styles, not to mention model, option, and color choices. That's what I'm talking about.

andre1969

but wouldn't mention domestics' advantages in interior and luggage space

I remember one issue of CR where they did a comparison test that included, of all things, a Prelude and a newly-downsized Riviera...so this must have been 1986. I forget what the other cars in the test were.

But, I do remember CR stretching to dis the Riv. They said that, while it had more legroom in the back than the other cars, all that meant was that taller passengers would be just as uncomfortable as shorter passengers would in the other cars.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. :confuse: That's like saying a basketball player is going to be every bit as uncomfortable in the back seat of a Suburban as a circus dwarf will be Fiat 500!

price, body styles, not to mention model, option, and color choices.

Well, back in the 1960's, CR's idea of a perfect car was something like a white, 6-cyl Rambler American 4-door sedan. They hated hardtops, convertibles, musclecars, ponycars, any big-car trim level above an Impala or Catalina, personal luxury coupes, big engines, and so on.

I guess today's equivalent of that would be a Frigidaire-white base-level Camry? Decent, competent enough car, very capable. But the world would be a boring place if that's all everyone drove.

lemko

Those downsized 1977-era B and C-body cars seem like they must've had me in mind as they fit me like a finely tailored suit!

lemko

Well, back in the 1960's, CR's idea of a perfect car was something like a white, 6-cyl Rambler American 4-door sedan.

YECCHH!!! Probably the LAST car I'd have purchased in 1960 aside from a VW Bug or Renault Dauphine!

dieselone

They'd frequently mention 'tactile' things like switchwear that I really didn't care about as long as it worked, but wouldn't mention domestics' advantages in interior and luggage space, price, body styles, not to mention model, option, and color choices. That's what I'm talking about.

The domestics have gotten much better in regards to "tactile" feel of switch gear etc. Frankly, having switches and turn signal stalks that sound like they have arthritis and feel like they could break at any time drives me nuts.

Interior room and layout mean little, if I can't stand to drive the vehicle. That was a big reason why I've disliked GM vehilces. Everything felt and looked cheap. But that has changed as the D3 has vastly improved in these areas over last 10 years.

My '00 Suburban and the '07 Grand Prix we had probably were the worst vehicles I've sampled in terms of feeling and looking cheap.

The Suburban was probably the biggest offender as trying to actually use it as a SUV/truck meant crawling on the floor to collect all dash pieces that would fall off. I'm not exaggerating. I'd drive down a gravel road and the radio knobs always would pop off, I even had the over head console fall down and dangle from the room by the wires. This was on a vehicle with under 50k miles on it. The '01 Nissan Pathfinder I had at the same time could cruise down that road twice as fast w/o as much as a squeak. It was tight as a drum. Sure it didn't have the room or towing ability, but it sure was more pleasant to drive and no matter how much I beat it, it never felt like it could break at any moment.

But that was 10 years ago. My Expedition has certainly met and exceeded some of my expectations. It has it's issues. Mainly exterior paint and trim issues. Inexcusable in a $40-50k vehicle and Ford won't do crap about it. That is pure BS.

But overall, considering how much I tow with it and how I treat it, it's held up remarkably well as far as the powertrain, suspension, and interior. I got rid of the Suburban at about the same mileage I have on the Expedition and the Suburban felt thoroughly tired. Mainly with suspension issues (sloppy steering ) and interior rattles which drove me nuts.

fintail

Big and cheap vs the feeling of well made. Some care for it, some don't.

I've never driven a German car where I thought the turn signal lever or light switch would break off from normal use, but at one time that was typical for domestics (I remember my grandma's 80s Olds had a signal switch that seemed very iffy to me). The tactile stuff some don't want to embrace must have merit, as the domestics have been working hard to improve theirs.

dieselone

I've never driven a German car where I thought the turn signal lever or light switch would break off from normal use, but at one time that was typical for domestics (I remember my grandma's 80s Olds had a signal switch that seemed very iffy to me)

Yeah, that's been my experience as well.

The tactile stuff some don't want to embrace must have merit, as the domestics have been working hard to improve theirs.

Definitely, the domestics have been working hard to become more like the competition in those areas.

uplanderguy

Those downsized 1977-era B and C-body cars seem like they must've had me in mind as they fit me like a finely tailored suit!

I liked them a lot then, and still do.

uplanderguy

Definitely, the domestics have been working hard to become more like the competition in those areas.

Including, sadly, reduction in body styles, exterior colors, interior colors, and individual options.

andres3

I think the reduction in styles, options, and color choices is coming from Used Car Managers, who are not competent enough to sell a vehicle unless it is white, gray/silver, or black, automatic transmission, leather interior, and has a sun/moon roof.

fintail

It's also a a lot cheaper to make just a few popular packages, rather than an infinite amount of possible combinations, or endless weird special orders. As Henry said, "Any customer can have a car painted any color that he wants so long as it is black". Cars with lots of color or option possibilities tend to be expensive.

motorcity6

Was sorry to see them tank for I supplied most of the cable assemblies..Out of the 53 cars owned to date my favorite GM would be the 71 SS350 Camaro,a quick 90k miles in 18 mos. and only lost 1/3 of original purchase price..The worst was probably an 82 Z-28, wife's car and was sold after a couple yrs., and it developed an engine fire and turned to toast..

Earlier on this forum I read where someone had an 07 Grand Prix which was not their favorite ride, and my current 06 GPGT-supercharged has been in my garage since 6/30/07,showing 73k now,and is finally getting broken in..bought car 1/2 price from MSRP total w/4,300 miles. Loaded and loves the open road..Shake-proof to top end, comes into its own around 70 and starts to have fun up the scale,not a great stop-light performer..Stock auto except for the tranmission oil cooler, Florida heat destroys trannies..Main engine and tranny mounts collasped around 50k and is on its fifth battery..

Ordering a Mustang GT w/performance pkg and 6 spd manual, std coupe no frills..Every 80 yr old should have one, drove the V-6 Stang with auto/and performance pkg, good but not great..No V-8 rumble..

Had 3 big-block Grand Prixs, 74, 76, and 77..Each did around 90k miles and were outstanding..

My 06 Prix will stay in the garage for the family to drive.

ateixeira

I recall their 4-5 car comparisons

CR doesn't even use that format. Once in a while they'll compare 2 cars head to head. The rest are individual tests.

ateixeira

When I think of CR, I think of different ratings for Prizm and Corolla, identical vehicles made in the same factory.

Source? Month and year?

I don't think that's true at all.

For clones they rank them in alphabetical order. So the Pontiac Vibe always ranked ahead of the Toyota Corolla, which demonstrates a blatant bias against Japan. :P

Prizm rated highly for years, I remember recommending them to non-enthusiast friends.

ateixeira

If he's talking about different reliability results...

Let's check before the old wives' tale spreads. Had the CR 2000 Buying Guide handy:

91-94 Prizms rated worse than average
95-97 were at least average or better

91-94 Corolla rated worse than average
95-98 were at least average or better

So much for any bias, or even any difference, LOL.

Look at who is making the claim, Mr. Nipponophobic himself. It's simply not true.

EDIT: 91 to 94 Corolla

ateixeira

Sienna and wow, that's an impressive minivan. But other than that, I'm not interested in any of their products

Guess which is the only Toyota I've ever owned?

It's a great van and GM and Ford abandoned the van market. Most Caravans are imported from Ontario FWIW.

Mine's made in Indiana, thank you Hoosiers!

ateixeira

Exactly which imported cars received a "pass" from Consumer Reports for recording 18 mpg fuel economy?

For the record, since people basically make everything up in this thread (2012 CR Buying Guide):

Chrysler 200 V6 - 21mpg
Genesis 3.8 - 22mpg
Avalon - 23mpg
Maxima - 22mpg
TL - 24mpg
Azera - 20mpg
LaCrosse - 20mpg
Taurus - 19mpg
Charger - 21mpg

If the Impala really only managed 18mpg then I think they were not nearly hard enough on Chevrolet.

ateixeira

We need a web site just like you get for spin in Politics.

Please list a SOURCE people.

Can't just say momma's cousin's friend saw a dude who read this some where.

Over the past couple of days the only BIAS that has been proven is one against Consumer Reports itself!

And that's a fact!

bpizzuti

Please list a SOURCE people. Why would they do that?

Can't just say momma's cousin's friend saw a dude who read this some where. My momms's cousin'd friend saw a dude that read that you can.

Over the past couple of days the only BIAS that has been proven is one against Consumer Reports itself! Well, it's completely biased to be opposed to someone else's bias.

And that's a fact! This is the Internet. Facts are completely irrelevant here. :shades:

None of these guys are ever going to admit that their love for all things GM has no basis in reality for anyone who has looked at any other comparable product. GM is coming back but they're still behind, and they're starting to make the same mistakes they did before. But that doesn't count.

fintail

Seek help, your obsession is unhealthy. Seriously.

Until I see every little circle filled in identically, I have no reason to believe otherwise.

ateixeira

That's all you got? LOL

Just wave the white flag already. You made it up.

No, I take that back, you heard someone else who made it up say it, liked what you heard, and then repeated it here.

This is what I mean when I say you often wear blinders. You will believe things that you only hope are true.

fintail

Why would someone make that up?

Smoke and fire, that's it.

What I mean is that Lexus vehicles are dynamic styling masterpieces driven by non-stereotypical people. That seems to be what it comes down to.

busiris

"This is what I mean when I say you often wear blinders. You will believe things that you only hope are true."

Such is the world we live in nowadays, and I blame it on the advent of email and 24/7 cable news channels.

Email, because people have a tendency to believe something they see written down that they would never believe just by hearing it, probably due to the assumed belief that the effort of writing something down is somehow superior in believe-ability to presumably no one would ever go to that much effort to write down a lie (although in reality, it's easier to email than to have an actual conversation),

And cable news channels, because there simply isn't enough significant news to fill 24 hours a day, so they "spice things up" a bit by adding rumor and opinion to fill up the time, often telling folks exactly what they wish to believe is happening .vs. just sticking to known facts. For the majority of "news" channels, they really aren't much different from the Midnight Enquirer you find at the grocery story check-out lines. All they need is to do a story on "Bat boy" and the transition will be complete...

cooterbfd

Probably the best source would be Automotive News, but that is a subscription only rag, and at over $100/yr, not many of us can pay that just to have facts at our disposal.

A shame though......it would keep us honest

stever

I bet people would complain that you can't trust a company based in Detroit to objectively report on foreign cars. Not to mention that their focus is on selling subscriptions for those horrid auto dealers.

cooterbfd

Yes, but they sell to all dealers, right?? Even an indie used car dealer.

stever

Yeah, and they also have reporters all over the world. Y'all write the home office and tell them the hosts need a subscription.

cooterbfd

Would there be anybody at Edmunds that does??? Even a sub. to Polk. After all we are talking about wrote facts about sales and cars still on the road to bolster or refute opinion.

stever

I know the home office people use Polk and I'm sure they have subscriptions to bunches of stuff. Unfortunately I can't walk down the hall and grab 'em. Probably mostly online stuff these days anyway.

But facts are so limiting.