GM News, New Models and Market Share

uplanderguy

But the GMC Lambda is worse than the Traverse? Also, why would the Avalanche be different than a Silverado?

Also, how fickle one model year's difference can be, when there truly aren't that many changes in most vehicles on the "Best" or "Worst" lists between 2011 and 2012 models, for instance.

Prepare for the barrage of "...but my (1995 or 2003 or whatever) sucked!".

bpizzuti

Not only is CR biased but they also use completely inconsistent data and should obviously be discarded. Obviously the Chevy Equinox and GMC Terrain are completely different vehicles with completely different target markets, one being premium and the other not being so. Or are they the same this week? I lost track. :shades:

ateixeira

Well first off, you just overlooked the Terrain and Equinox being grouped together.

GMC and Saturn Lambdas were virtual clones (in fact the facelifted GMC Acadia *IS* the old Saturn Outlook) but the other platform-mates are more differentiated.

I just sampled the Enclave and Traverse back to back, since friends bought one of each, and you cannot tell they come from the same platform.

The Beetle and Audi TT also share a platform but you could never tell. There are time when a manufacturer does a good job giving each a distinct personality.

Sierra and Silverado are twins but Avalanche is very different than those two. The midgate, plastic bed, built-in bed cover, many many things to differentiate it.

ateixeira

See what I did there?

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-10-31/civic-passat-caravan-buyers-shake-off-c- onsumer-reports.html

Ironically it's their criticism of the Civic that's being ignored by consumers.

circlew

I gues "New Cars" are available for low sales then, right? Like I said, when Kia has the full line ahead of GM, who is leading and who is following? You always have an excuse for GM mediocrity. But then, I regress.

What is the free-fall for Hyundai's reliability? Did you not see my statements relative to "GM-Disease" regrading the quest to be the top seller? Did you leave that out in your balanced response? Did you not see my comment regarding Honda and Toyota meeting that same fate GM is famous for???

Regards,
OW

ateixeira

What we're observing is that no one is immune from such rapid expansion. Hyun/Kia may actually want to limit growth so that the demand vs. supply balance remains in their favor, and of course for better quality control.

circlew

What????? Mustang Top Reliability over the Camaro? Blasphemy, I say!

Regards,
OW

bpizzuti

Well, this is the difference between an automaker that wants to take over the world, like GM or Toyota, and one that simply wants to serve a market niche, and do so well, like Subaru or Mazda.

circlew

I stress this point regarding the article you posted:

Consumer Reports recently unveiled its latest predicted reliability results, from the 2012 Annual Auto Survey, which found Japanese brands claimed the top seven spots in our rankings. However, it's not all bad for the domestic brands and within some vehicle segments there are standouts

USA is still following, don't you agree?

Regards,
OW

ateixeira

Japanese brands, yes, but where are those seven cars built?

Don't you think the folks in Marysville or Lafayette deserve credit if their car remains in one peice a decade after it's built?

I'm just posing the question, to be honest I haven't even looked at where those top 10 are built.

dieselone

But the GMC Lambda is worse than the Traverse?

I'd imagine the average Acadia has more stuff on it vs a Traverse. And yes, variation can raise it's ugly head even when little has changed. I'm not shocked at all that one year can be worse than another.

As for a Avalanche vs Silverado, as others have mentioned they are more different than you realize. It has more in common with a Suburban (same wheel base and suspension with coil springs in back, interior etc) then add the complexity of the midgate and bed cover or whatever it's called.

uplanderguy

I believe you just listed all differences between an Avalanche and a Silverado--LOL.

So the midgate mitigates all the mechanical similarities between the two? Um..yeah, OK.

uplanderguy

I'd imagine the average Acadia has more stuff on it vs a Traverse

But there are a lot of Traverse LTZ's out there.

uplanderguy

I saw your comments about Honda and Toyota, but did not see that same thing mentioned about Hyundai. Maybe you can identify that post number of yours for me.

There you go again...the discussion was about the drop in Hyundai reliability, following discussions of GM reliability in recent model years. And somehow, you actually use the term "GM mediocrity" in response to a conversation about Hyundai's decreasing reliability and GM's improving.

Wow.

dieselone

I believe you just listed all differences between an Avalanche and a Silverado--LOL.

Every Avalanche has a 5.3 v8 and 6 speed trans, in the Silverados you can have 4.3,4.8,5.3, 6.0, and 6.2 plus 4 speed trans (4.3 and 4.8) and 6 speeds in the others.

uplanderguy

I just sampled the Enclave and Traverse back to back, since friends bought one of each, and you cannot tell they come from the same platform.

But they are, Blanche, they ARE from the same platform!;)

uplanderguy

What????? Mustang Top Reliability over the Camaro? Blasphemy, I say!

Good for them. It somehow slightly counters the rest of their lineup being on that 'other' list.

Let me know what kind of discounts you've been seeing in the papers on those Camaro ZL-1's we were talking about a few months ago. Man, they can't give them away! Also, damn did they have a bad launch with the Camaro three years ago. At least that's what you said then.

uplanderguy

Does CR differentiate all those engines and trans in their reliability column for the Silverado? I didn't think so.

dieselone

Does CR differentiate all those engines and trans in their reliability column for the Silverado? I didn't think so.

No, but that's why the results can be different, plus they're built in different plants. I think all of the Avalanches are built in Mexico.

tlong

So the midgate mitigates all the mechanical similarities between the two? Um..yeah, OK

It's not the similarities that cause different problems, it's the differences.

I could see how the exact same vehicle optioned differently could have different problems. Higher end electronics, for example, could have more trouble (My Ford Touch anybody?). Power hatch doors don't fail when they aren't powered.

uplanderguy

But the differences aren't all that great...the similarities, are.

I'm not that convinced that assembly location makes that much of a difference, as it did forty years ago. I think cars and trucks are engineered to go down the line with much less "worker interpretation" than in the old days.

uplanderguy

And if different assembly plants did make a big difference, CR would include separate columns for assembly location in their reliability records.

circlew

Also, damn did they have a bad launch with the Camaro three years ago. At least that's what you said then.

They sure did. Perhaps that led to why the Mustang is on one list and the Camaro is not.

Regards,
OW

circlew

So who makes the best cars that are selling currently? Still not GM.

What is your definition of mediocrity?

Regards,
OW

uplanderguy

They've absolutely moved more Camaros in that time period than Mustangs, even with one less body style for a good portion of that time. Don't know that you've ever commented on that, however (sigh).

circlew

Agreed Camaro sales are more than Mustang since the terrible launch in 2009.

2009-2012 YTD Oct.
Camaro = 305,286
Mustang = 282,926

23K more for Camaro.

Regards,
OW

dieselone

I guess you need to do your own reliability study. BTW, I've looked briefly at JD Powers and ratings for quality on similar gm vehicles have different scores with them too. Ex. JD give the Avalanche a 4/5 for powertrain mechanical quality vs 3/5 for the Suburban 1500.

I think there are a lot of reasons why they score different. The different brands can have different options. A pickup truck will likely be used differently than a Suburban or Avalanche. I know quite a few farmers and how I use my Expedition pales in comparison to how they use their trucks.

Though in reality, the differences seem to be small. It's not like one is rated flawless and the other a lemon. Anyway, I think we've beat this dead horse into the ground, either you value the various reliability studies or you don't.

ateixeira

I believe you just listed all differences between an Avalanche and a Silverado--LOL.

No, I forgot about the completely different rear suspension as mentioned in the post before yours. There are several other differences. Fewer engines choices could easily sway numbers, too.

Even the customer they target are different. I view the pickups as work trucks, while the Avalanche is more the Harry Homeowner do-it-yourself type.

To say the Avalanche and Silverado are clones is borderline ridiculous. Seems the rear suspension has more in common with the Dodge Ram.

uplanderguy

What is borderline ridiculous is not admitting how similar they are.

You can get a Mexican-built Silverado with a 5.3 V8, correct?

OK, to make you feel better, wouldn't the Tahoe and Avalanche be more similar? If you can tell me how having an extended roof would negatively impact reliability, I'm all ears.

It's OK to admit that sample error exists.

ateixeira

Quoting myself here, but....

They're [Mazda is] not as vulnerable as Suzuki and Mitsubishi...

American Suzuki just filed for Chapter 11. You heard it from me first.

Mitsubishi is next, watch.

stever

I view the Avalanche and Silverado like the Aztek and Rendezvous. One has a lot more cladding.

My nephew got an Avalanche about 280,000 miles ago and used it heavily in his contracting work. He's back in school now and heavy into kayaking. All those cubbies work well for both uses for him.

ateixeira

Sample error exists, of course, and is something CR acknowledges. That's why their sample sizes are bigger than other surveys and they show "insufficient data" for models like the Pontiac Torrent.

They also weigh bigger problems more than small ones, unlike what's been claimed here.

Again, the critics don't read the magazine and know little about.

Avalanche scored higher than Silverado but for all we know it could have been a 1% difference. All CR did was pick the best score.

Can you say with certainty that the Silverado has more than 99% in common with the Avalanche?

Of COURSE not.

Avalanche uses 25% of the engines used by the Silverado.

That alone EASILY easily could explain the Avalanche's edge.

ateixeira

Same platform but very different packaging on those....

Rendezvous had a 3rd row of seats, for instance.

I actually test drove one of those.

dieselone

It's OK to admit that sample error exists.

It's possible. Just as it is possible an Avalanche and Silverado can actually be different in regards to reliability. They are not identical by any means. As I posted before, the Avalanche is on the Suburban chassis with the same wheelbase and suspension. If anything, I'd think the Avalanche would be a bit more troublesome overall due to the midgate. But both CU and JD rate is slightly better.

What are the odds that two separate surveys that get similar results are both suffering from sample error? I'm sure it's possible, but I'd think it would cause the Avalanche to score worse, not better. But I guess it's possible considering how few Avalanches are sold vs Suburbans or Silverados.

ateixeira

The 2012 Buying Guide has them both in the Average range, which means up to 20% better than average reliability (or up to 20% worse).

Assuming best case scenario, that means it could be that their surveys showed the Avalanche had 20% fewer problems than average, and the Silverado had 19% fewer problems than average.

Could be a tiny difference, they just picked the best.

It's not like they said the Avalance has 80% fewer problem and the Silverado has 65% more problems than average.

You only have to win by 1 to be the best, heck maybe even a fraction.

dieselone

On JD's top quality pics, their are 44 available spots. Japanese makes took 23 of the 44 spots vs 12 for the domestics which GM took 5 spots. I guess that is due to sample error too.

tlong

I'm not that convinced that assembly location makes that much of a difference, as it did forty years ago. I think cars and trucks are engineered to go down the line with much less "worker interpretation" than in the old days.

I suspect you are correct on that one. I'd expect reliability differences to be more about variations in the vehicle that might make a difference.

uplanderguy

Sample error exists, of course, and is something CR acknowledges.

I can honestly say I have never seen them acknowledge this. This is not the same thing as saying "Insufficient Data".

Also...again...they did say the Torrent was different in reliability than the first Equinox. Just because you don't own that particular year's issue doesn't mean it didn't happen. I refuse to go to a library and look. I just know what I saw...like I did when I said "Automobile" said the Sonata had four recalls, although people here accused me of all kinds of positively ridiculous things. Like I would care that much.

tlong

Anyway, I think we've beat this dead horse into the ground, either you value the various reliability studies or you don't.

...and if those studies disagree with your favorite brand, then you obviously don't agree with them... :P

dieselone

Sample error exists, of course, and is something CR acknowledges.

I can honestly say I have never seen them acknowledge this. This is not the same thing as saying "Insufficient Data".

http://www.insideline.com/dodge/challenger/american-muscle-cars-having-off-year-- says-consumer-reports.html

"Last year (the Nissan 370Z) was the lowest-rated sporty model," it said. "Key reasons for its volatility is the small survey sample size and the fact that Nissan may be actually sorting out bugs."

fho2008

I remember reading about the Ave' when it first came out, its a Suburban that gets shipped to Mexico then transformed. At least it was at first, dont know if things have changed, but that should explain the powertrain choices.

uplanderguy

I do think if one breathes deep, and steps back from it all, it is somewhat laughable that a 2012 Nissan Z-car is that much better than a 2011. Was it all-new in '11? I seriously don't know.

I wonder where the Camaro V8 was in the survey, since they only mention the Challenger V8 and Mustang V8 being not reliable. But wasn't the "Mustang" on their list of ten most reliable American cars? I'm confused now.

uplanderguy

Suburbans have been made in Mexico too, and for awhile.

uplanderguy

I thought I've said this about 1,000 times here, but to me sample error is when the same vehicle gets different ratings in things than its corporate twin.

I also think it is reasonable to ask, that when, say, the Silverado has the multiple engine and transmission choices in any given model year, they are not broken out...they are all lumped in together, apparently. I think most car guys would say that reliability would be more based on engine/trans combo than if a vehicle has a center gate versus a roof and fixed glass over the rear portion of the cargo floor. Just sayin'. Seems rather basic to me.

ateixeira

again...they did say the Torrent was different in reliability than the first Equinox

How different, though?

Could have been the 'nox at 19% better than average, and the Torrent at 20% better than average, and the scores would differ. (Average vs. Better than Average)

I'm not saying you didn't see a difference. What I'm saying is that it may not be that significant.

ateixeira

they only mention the Challenger V8 and Mustang V8 being not reliable. But wasn't the "Mustang" on their list of ten most reliable American cars?

Per the 2012 guide the Mustang has rated Average or better for a while, all 2005-2010 models. Often better than average.

Recent scores dropped a little due to MyFord touch being confusing to a lot of people. That tech got criticism from all sides so they're not alone.

ateixeira

sample error is when the same vehicle gets different ratings in things than its corporate twin.

I can agree on that definition, sure.

The Equinox and Torrent were twins, but the Terrain is not. Platform mate yes, but not twin.

Avalanche is not the twin of a Silverado, in fact it's more closely related to the Suburban, and even then changed substantially (obviously).

dieselone

I think most car guys would say that reliability would be more based on engine/trans combo than if a vehicle has a center gate versus a roof and fixed glass over the rear portion of the cargo floor. Just sayin'. Seems rather basic to me.

Well I care about more than that. Other areas can be just as big of a deal. 4wd systems, electronics, window actuators, a/c etc. I spend thousands on my Suburban and Expedition to fix things that never caused me to be stranded.

Plus I just looked on CU comparing a Silverado to a Sierra and from '03 to '12 they are nearly identical on the different reliability areas. CU does break down by v8, v6, and 4wd, and 2wd. CU states both are predicted to be 9% better than average. So I really don't think the differences in ratings are as bad as claimed.

Now the Silverado/Sierra care basically clones except for the Denaili line that the Silverado doesn't have.

bpizzuti

Agreed. I don't think Mazda or Subaru is going anywhere, but at this rate GM will have more brands in the US than Japan.

uplanderguy

No one could tell me that the AC system or power window controls would be any different between an Avalanche and any other Chevy truck. You're actually bolstering my argument. The big differences could be in powertrains and all the things that go with an engine and trans. Apparently they are all lumped together as one for Chevy pickups. I can't really expect them to do more, I know, but on the other hand, that is a bit bogus.