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GM News, New Models and Market Share

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Comments

  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Here's their 'nox review from when it came out, generally pretty positive (I think they Recommend it):

    http://youtu.be/VMeNk30H5tU

    The V6 has been replaced, I think with the 3.6l, right? So it's due for an update as well.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    edited January 2013
    Outback is made domestically and that's their best selling model, so I'd say yes, they're open minded about good made-in-the-USA cars. :shades:

    Equinox is made in 3 plants but 2 of them are in Ontario, Canada. So mostly imports.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 11,322
    Yep, and all their management is in the U.S. right?
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 11,322
    No offense to anybody, but you couldn't have given me an Aveo, ever. I knew they were a 'captive' Korean import from day one. I'm glad the Sonic is built here...the only subcompact built in the United States.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Posts: 3,062
    Teen-age boys and fans of Star Wars movies are sure to like the styling of the new 2014 Corvette.
  • busirisbusiris Posts: 3,490
    No doubt about it, it's a great looking piece of automobile.

    Lets hope it avoids many of the "teething pains" that so many new generations of models end up suffering through.

    It definitely wins the beauty contest award...
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Don't care one bit about overpaid auto executives.

    Look at the pay ratio between a CEO and the average blue collar guy on the assembly line. The gap keeps getting bigger and bigger.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 48,379
    And sour out of touch older men who made their gold during a period of unrepeatable economic expansion will still be the ones lining up to buy it, just like with the very aged previous model.

    That being said, nice to see GM is finally starting to address that interior. I think the car looks great, a quantum leap over the past couple decades.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    It's a halo car, that is a very important part of its mission.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 11,322
    You're talking about top executives. I assume there's a good number of middle-class white-collar guys, like me, who work for the car companies as well. I'd rather pay them in Michigan than Korea, Japan, Germany, wherever, but trust me, I know that's a big 'who gives a damn?' anymore to most everybody.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 11,322
    It's new, but with some heritage in its design. Personally, I like that. I don't think the Nissan Z-car is a particularly handsome design, as a comparison.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Do you work for GM?
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 11,322
    edited January 2013
    No, you know that.

    I believe in balance. And I've liked my GM products. Many people here find that somehow impossible.

    I detest when only part of the story is presented...or even worse, when incorrect information is presented. Opinions are OK, but wrong "facts" aren't. That problem is rampant on this board.

    Clearly, GM employs more people in this country than any import company--also employs more suppliers. Let's not drag those numbers out again.

    I can't blame you for asking, though, really--I wondered if you worked for Hyundai after the "Automobile" magazine brouhaha last year!

    And fintail, geez, that's some stereotyping! LOL I have some Benz owner stereotypes in my mind too, but I'll keep them to myself! ;)
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Posts: 3,062
    edited January 2013
    And sour out of touch older men who made their gold during a period of unrepeatable economic expansion will still be the ones lining up to buy it, just like with the very aged previous model.

    So, what is demo of those who buy new Corvettes? If one is sour, out of touch and older, buy a Corvette? If un-sour, in touch and young, buy a what?

    Should one generalize about Mercedes Benz owners when seeing these expensive models in parking lot by orthodonists' office? Or, seeing many times seasoned citizen women driving Benzes slowly?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I assume there's a good number of middle-class white-collar guys, like me, who work for the car companies as well. I'd rather pay them in Michigan than Korea

    The Sonic you just recommended was designed by white collar guys in Korea, FWIW.

    Spark is designed and built there.

    Meanwhile, cars like the American Accord and Camry are unique to the US and are actually designed and built here.

    I think you fix in on the label too much.

    The Accord is an American car.

    The Spark is a Korean car.

    Doesn't matter what badge you slap on the front.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Sorry but it started to sound like you did.

    Balance means recognizing the Spark is a Korean car, designed and built.

    I call it like it is, some times I agree with you (Corvette rocks), other times I disagree.
  • fho2008fho2008 Posts: 393
    Hope they like the fit and finish, look at the mismatched body panels. Way to go GM!

    I spent my tax dollars for this? (Not my choice, no taxpayers had a choice, unless you are a politician)

    I'm part owner of a company that made this? (again not my decision to waste money on GM)

    Tell me its a joke.
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 5,192
    Wasn't it you, tlong, who said (and I quote), "Why is the Malibu so lame?"

    It could have been me. If I am saying that statement it is not because it's a terrible car. It's because for a company that nearly died and was saved by the government, I don't understand how a redesign could be worse or no better than the previous model, and how it could be decent, but still trail most of its competitors. By itself it may not be "lame", but taken as a perspective on GM and it's competitors, yes, it is "lame".

    GM should have been able to do much better.
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 5,192
    Yep, and all their management is in the U.S. right?

    And management is Sooooo important because?

    People like Lutz, Wagoner... don't know why we are so worried about the 1% rather than the 99%.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    GM employs more people in this country than any import company

    That's a sign of poor efficiency, though.

    The transplants build more cars per man hour because they are often more efficient.

    Not to pick on GM, because VW is even less efficient than GM is.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    look at the mismatched body panels

    Dude, pre-production. Please.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Posts: 3,062
    No doubt about it, it's a great looking piece of automobile.

    Of course, styling is very subjective.

    2014 Corvette gets me to thinking that the people who designed/styled some of GM cars of the past, such as at Pontiac - last Trans-AM, Aztek, cladded boy racer Grand AMs, etc - apparently are still around. Maybe these are the out-of-touch "old" guys another poster referred to as potential buyers.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I disagree.

    Watch it win Best of Show from all the major car mags.
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 5,192
    edited January 2013
    I believe in balance...I detest when only part of the story is presented...or even worse, when incorrect information is presented.

    Perhaps we actually all agree more than we realize. Let me throw out what I think is a "balanced" picture and let me know how much you agree (or disagree):

    1 - GM made crappy cars (even crappier than most of the competition) in the 80's and 90's
    2 - GM has improved substantially and is now much more competitive than it was back then
    3 - GM's trucks and SUVs are very competitive. While they are tough and durable, they have still had build and reliability issues, even in the 2000's *on average* vs. brands like Toyota, although GM has a much fully line of products in this area, so there is not much foreign nameplate competition.
    4 - GM's smaller cars were not very competitive at all until the past 5-ish years
    5 - GM's new smaller cars are hugely improved
    6 - GM still has some reliablity issues vs. the *average* of the better competition
    7 - GM's midsized cars were not very competitive until recently. The previous model Malibu was nearly as competitive as the other mainstream family sedans.
    8 - The newest Malibu is not better than the previous one and has generally tested near the bottom of the pack vs. its competition. This does not make it a bad car, but rather a middling car in a very competitive field.
    9 - Lots of GMs are made in the USA, and quite a lot are not
    10 - Lots of foreign nameplate vehicles are made in the USA, many with very high domestic content, and many are also designed in the USA.

    How is that?

    I actually suspect we agree more than not, but some people are saying "GM is not that bad" and I agree, while I'm saying "why isn't GM LEADING (or darn close to it)". Don't we want GM to be the best, not just "decent"?
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 11,322
    Is the Sonic a Daewoo? That's not my understanding. If it were, one would wonder why they'd spend the money to upgrade a new plant here instead of just continuing to import it from Korea.

    I'll just hand-off our differences to age and backgrounds. And that's OK of course.
  • fho2008fho2008 Posts: 393
    Dude they were showing it off. Please.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 11,322
    8 - The newest Malibu is not better than the previous one and has generally tested near the bottom of the pack vs. its competition

    and I again, I ask: What is your opinion of the Feb. CR where the Malibu 1LT tested better than many of the foreign competition? I think it's a simple question.
  • dieselonedieselone Posts: 5,729
    edited January 2013
    That's a sign of poor efficiency, though.

    The transplants build more cars per man hour because they are often more efficient.

    Not to pick on GM, because VW is even less efficient than GM is.


    Also the transplants' manufacturing facilities seem to be more flexible. That can actually reduce cars per man hour, but it's better in the end as they're less likely to have 130+ days of inventory of certain models.

    So far VW can afford to be less productive as their profit is double that of GM. Will see where VW group finishes for '12. They did have a big profit boost from the Porsche deal, but Europe has been hurting so I don't have a clue how the 4th quarter will be.
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 5,192
    and I again, I ask: What is your opinion of the Feb. CR where the Malibu 1LT tested better than many of the foreign competition? I think it's a simple question.

    My subscription lapsed so I haven't seen the issue. I'll take your word on it, though.

    That's great that the Malibu tested better than those other vehicles. How does it compare to the front runners in the segment - the Accord and Camry?

    Also, we don't know what the reliability will look like. I think the previous model averaged around the middle, with some better and some worse than average years.

    So it's a perfectly decent car in a very competitive market.

    If you (and I) want to be GM fans, do we want to accept "perfectly decent"?
    I know my sports teams should be leading the pack, not midpack.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Yep, the remnants of Daewoo designed the Sonic (and Spark). Sonic is built in Korea and the US. Spark just in Korea.

    GM's never shined at small cars so they basically outsource it to GM-DAT and let them do it.

    That's not necessarily bad, it just doesn't make them "domestic".
  • dieselonedieselone Posts: 5,729
    edited January 2013
    and I again, I ask: What is your opinion of the Feb. CR where the Malibu 1LT tested better than many of the foreign competition? I think it's a simple question.

    According to the CR website overall sedan ratings, the '13 Malibu 1LT returned a score of 83. That's still below the Sonota GLS 89, Accord LX 90, Camry LE 88. Overall ranking is 11th for the Malibu. I guess CR hasn't conducted a full test of the Fuison, as it isn't listed.

    So sure, the Malibu scored better than the Optima, Passat, Altima 4cyl (but not v6 model) it still is way behind the class leaders in both ratings and sales.

    FWIW, the Camry Hybrid had the top score of 93.

    So no the Malibu isn't a bottom of the barrel car by any means, it seems to me the goal of the Malibu was to be more than mid pack.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Keep in mind Lincoln's last show car was smoking from the doors.

    Show cars are basically hand built and then touched by journalists who tug at everything to see if it'll break.

    Thou shalt not judge.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    manufacturing facilities seem to be more flexible

    Unfortunately I have a feeling that has more to do with labor contracts keeping plants from going idle.
  • dieselonedieselone Posts: 5,729
    Unfortunately I have a feeling that has more to do with labor contracts keeping plants from going idle.

    I'm sure that's 99% of the reason, regardless those rules have costs.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Posts: 2,743
    I didn't hear that as positive. They seem to be less than impressed with dash/control design, visibility, and the powertrains. Though front and rear legroom is very impressive.

    I also don't think they took it on the rock trail anywhere. ;)
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Posts: 2,743
    You're talking about top executives. I assume there's a good number of middle-class white-collar guys, like me, who work for the car companies as well. I'd rather pay them in Michigan than Korea, Japan, Germany, wherever, but trust me, I know that's a big 'who gives a damn?' anymore to most everybody.

    You OK with paying them in Indiana?
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Posts: 2,743
    Is the Sonic a Daewoo? That's not my understanding. If it were, one would wonder why they'd spend the money to upgrade a new plant here instead of just continuing to import it from Korea.

    That was a condition of the bailout i believe: they had to build a subcompact high-mileage car within the US.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 11,322
    edited January 2013
    What exact ten models were ahead of the 1LT Malibu within that category in the magazine? Honestly, I can't recall nearly that many.

    I trust you are taking numbers from the high-end box in the mag and comparing the 1LT Malibu to those as well...tsk-tsk, dieselone, I thought you were more objective than that.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 11,322
    Today is the first time I ever heard that.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    edited January 2013
    Power train for the V6 was updated, and I bet they did take it on their rock course but just didn't show it on the video.

    They also mention how it was a huge improvement over the previous design.

    The DI 4 banger makes nearly as much power as the ancient Chinese built boat anchor with pushrods did.
  • fho2008fho2008 Posts: 393
    Just looking at the pictures I see some Ford, Audi, Lamborghini, Ferrari, Nissan, Dodge. Couldnt fit in any BMW, Porsche or Aston Martin? Maybe the ZL-1 will have more styling cues from other makes.

    Its a car that doesnt know what it wants to be. Lets put some Corvette in there, this is a Vette ya know.....four round tail lights, nah. It has the name and the flags.

    Whats next, front wheel drive 4 cyl? And the vid will talk about how eight was good but we can do more with four.
  • robr2robr2 BostonPosts: 8,863
    That was a condition of the bailout i believe: they had to build a subcompact high-mileage car within the US.

    Nope.

    The reason the Sonic is built in Michigan is because the UAW agreed to a lower wage at the plant, the plant is half the size of a typical plant and many energy efficient systems were put into place. Further, the same line also builds the Verano - a vehicle that is more profitable.

    Sonic Manufacturing
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    edited January 2013
    Be honest, if you saw an image of that car, would you think it was anything besides a Corvette?

    And yes, that is a trick question. :P
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Posts: 2,743
    Actually, I would be interested in seeing a 300 HP turbo-4 mounted longitudinally in the 'Vette engine bay. What could the thing do with so much less weight in the nose?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    edited January 2013
    Cars that perform at that level aren't any lighter.

    The Z06 is actually on the light side for its performance class, and the 2014 lost more weight.

    I could see a turbo 4 in something else, but not a Corvette.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 11,322
    A friend of mine who is friends with a Ford dealer technician said his friend said that the Dodge Dart has been a huge sales disappointment.

    Has anybody heard that? I haven't heard one way or the other.
  • andres3andres3 Southern CAPosts: 11,063
    I'll interject that the Malibu likely scored high in things like soft comfortable ride, quiet cabin at idle and at highway speeds, and on comfortable seats perhaps. Those are things CR weighs heavily.

    I don't think they are winning any drag races or FE contests though.

    Also, the Malibu will never be recommended if they can't maintain at least reasonable reliability (average or better).
    '16 Audi TTS quattro 2.0T, '15 Audi A4 quattro 2.0T, '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion AWD
  • fho2008fho2008 Posts: 393
    It doesnt know what it wants to be...Ferrari, no Viper, no Camaro tail lights wtf!?!?

    Vette shared its tail lights before, always four round tail lights, didnt take em from other cars. When you get rid of the hidden headlights I guess anything goes.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Posts: 2,743
    I'm sure the Ford dealer says the Cruze has been a sales disappointment also. ;)
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 5,192
    A friend of mine who is friends with a Ford dealer technician said his friend said that the Dodge Dart has been a huge sales disappointment.

    I think Chrysler has a much bigger image issue than even GM, given their products over the last 5-10 years.

    I did see a really cool Dart commercial during the Golden Globes. I don't believe I've seen a Dart on the road, though.
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