I was recently in Germany and rented a BMW 320d for a week. This is a 2.0L diesel powered 3 series sedan. I loved the car, it got outstanding mileage, and I found the car surprisingly quick (even accelerated very nicely in 5th gear.
Does anyone know why we currently do not have any 4 cylinder or diesel versions of the 3 in the states?
Even without leather,its not a bad price.Just make sure it comes from a good home. I did not get leather in my 2001 325i. I dont regret a bit. Good luck! Dan
Well, for Diesels, 'cause only a vanishingly small percentage of the US wants diesel cars, and California pollution requirements are very hard to pass with the current high-sulfur fuels.
For 4-bangers, a brief look at the sales history of the late 318-ti will tell you all you need to know.
master: I'm one of the first to accept that you get what you pay for. But I'm from a culture where the sticker price is just a suggestion. So I've had no qualms about offering $5000 for a car the dealer says is going for $8995. (My 93 Dodge Shadow which I drove for 2 1/2 years before I sold it for just under half that [would have got more but had a minor ding or two])
I also knew exactly what I wanted to spend on my car this time around. I'll admit I exceeded my limit by $1500-2000, but got a great interest rate that balances it out perfectly. (I asked for 14% off, got 10, which is ok in my books)
Maybe you should take me along to negotiate your next deal.
Personally, I've always believed that dealers start high and expect you to negotiate. I don't like the process but I work too hard for my $$ to just give it away without a token resistance
The SC does have a waste gate so it is possible depending on the pulley size to engineer in extra boost. You would as in the turbo just use the extra boost if environment or driving conditions require it. I think the use of an intercooler tends to even the cars boost curve out over temp changes. I think the visibility of altitude effects would also depend on how high of a boost application you have. A turbo or SC increasing power by 100HP on a 240HP NA car probably will not loose enough power to be noticed at altitude. I have also noticed that higher displacement engines usually use SC while smaller ones use turbos. I would think the turbo would actually make more sense in the larger engine. The larger engine usually has more exhaust gases, and is more likely to run out of breath at high RPM (even with DOHC and VVT do to the cylinder size). The smaller engine on the other hand usually needs more low end torque, where it produces the least exhaust gases. Now, a small super lightweight (no lag) efficient (high boost from given exhust pressure) turbo would probably give you the best of both worlds. I think it make be more a customer preference as oppose to pure engineering choice, assuming of course engineers would choose to balance or flatten the torque curve. The costumer who buys a high RPM small displacement engine wants to keep the engine at the top of the powerband, and would not see much benefit from supercharging. The large displacement engine buyer wants torque on demand, and would probably never downshift to put the turbo in its sweetspot. A side note concerning cylinder size, maybe this is why BMW uses a V12 once displacement goes beyond 5.0L. They can get the torque of greater displacement without sacrifing high rpm capabilities. A smaller cylinder will arguably lighter and able to generate higher RPMs, and its smaller volumn will probably create less breathing challenges. I would imagine you get to a point with VVT where you just can not open and close valves soon enough or fast enough to perform exhaust or intake cycles on a large cylinder within an RPM period. I am sure this is one of the reasons we see 4.4 V8's instead of 4.4 L6's, in addition to 5.0L V12s as oppose to 5.0L V8s (with the exception of the M5). I sure there probably some theoretical limit to VVT, maybe 100% overlap ? No matter how small the cylinder or high the compression, you can't do something in literally zero time between cycles ?
brave: My vote is to put on the spare tire as you mentioned, then use "cut" tire as spare. Not sure about your experience with flats, but I've only had 2 since I've been driving. The point being, you're unlikely to get a flat--but if you do, you could certainly use the "cut" tire to get you a short distance. Of course, knowing the tire is compromised means you'll be driving less than your usual 9/10s! Uh... won't you?(;>}
silver: Glad to help. Hope you find your thrill like the rest of us.
You proved my points. Getting a Dodge Shadow (or my example Saturn) for a major discount is not surprising at all. It's supply/demand. And if you got 10% off the price of your BMW (a 1998 318 right?), it means the seller wanted to sell bad enough! Timing and luck. And thanks for your offer to help me negotiate, but I think I did REAL good--try and find a CPO 2000 BMW with 8k miles for $5600 off MSRP (which at 7% sales tax also saves me another $400 from new). Timing and luck.
That is a great deal for your car. I'm envious. Market conditions in different parts of NA also impact the final price. The market here for the 98 328 seems to be holding steady at well above my range. So I'm happy with the price I paid for the car I got.
"Mommy, he's done it again". I was accelerating away from the toll booths on the pike and I got carried away in second. Twice in one week. I wasn't looking at the tach - I was just going by the engine sound and as I started shifting into third, I peaked at the tach, which was at 6,700 RPM's. The rev limiter might have kicked in very briefly - I'm not sure - but I think I managed to avoid it by a 1/10 of a second. So yes, I clearly saw 6,700 RPM's and all I can say is that even at this RPM level, the engine did not have a single worry in the world. It was quite happy to play, I might add. Once moving and especially on the interstate, I rarely let the RPM's fall below 3,500. I guess I found the perfect car for my driving style, what can I say? Rev it and love it.
A warning to all of you: be careful what you clean your windshield with at gas stations. I was rubbing some spots hard to get rid of the dead bugs and bird droppings before I noticed that the blade was worn out and some of the scratches it left are not going away. Ahhh, well...I rarely go 3 or 4 months without having some flying rock hit it anyhow.
The faster you drive the 3-series, the more composed it feels. You can definitely tell that this car has been engineered to perform best at high speed. It seems to me that the sweet spot is between 90 and 120 - you can switch multiple lanes at a time instanteniously, or brake fast if you have to, or both. The car feels as solid and stable in that speed range as it does at 50 - it is truly amazing!!
wagons: The more I hear how some posters think that wagons are uncool, the more I think I'd like to have one, probably in a few years when we have two kids. A BMW wagon performs 98% as well as the sedan/coupe and I think it looks very appealing, IMO. Also, the key thing for my driving style is that it looks like a responsible vehicle. See, if you get pulled over going twice the speed limit in the ramp driving a coupe, the cop will be like "This yuppie guy is dangerous and must be stopped". You do the same in a wagon and the cop will be like "Well, this mature, responsible parent got a little carried away but I'm sure he'll slow down as soon as he picks up his daughter from the dance lesson. I guess I'll let it slip". If that's the image wagon drivers portray, I could care less if twenty-somethings think the wagon looks uncool. It's a Bimmer in every way and I like the looks of it a lot. I wish they sold the 330T, though - I suspect the 325T may be a little slow for my taste with that added weight.
The Shtroumpf is fast approaching 5K miles. Wondering if I'd be able to fit in a 5K write-up the size it deserves on this board )
Streetracer, have you ever taken your car on the track? With a BMWCCA membership I paid $125 for a day at the track with experienced instructors. Also got a half day on a skidpad and a parking lot course. It was a blast and made me a better, faster driver. But most of all it was safe. The track we use is just less than 2 miles with 13 corners and is fairly wide so if you get into a curve a little too hard and slide, you just make a lousy apex. On the street someone could die. I do like to drive fast on country and mountain roads, but well below what I might try on the track. In any case the BMW is simply amazing through corners and especially fast in higher speed turns (through the S'es in third at 85). It sounds like you have a lot of experience driving fast cars, so if you haven't been on a road course (or maybe an autocross), I suspect you would be hooked. I didn't stop smiling for a week!
Silverprincess, my car has the exact same options as the one you are looking at (even the same colors) except no sunroof, but mine has leather. I have a 2000 with 8,000 miles. If the car you are looking at is in great shape, $26,990 sounds fair. You might offer $1,000 less and see what the response is - it can't hurt. I suspect my car is worth about $29,000. Make sure you let us know what you decide and if you get any additional discount.
Sorry to hear that. If I recall correctly, most tire manufacturers literature will state that the speed rating is voided with any sidewall damage on speed rated tires. In addition to weakening the stiffness of the tire, gouges are a prime place for moisture to enter into and weaken the inner structure of the tire. The uncertainty involved with the damage makes the tire dangerous. Especially in a performance car, and I think you should replace it with the spare and then replace the damaged tire altogether. I would not consider repairing sidewall damage. I don't want to hear about you sliding of the pike on the overdramatized 7 News here in Boston.
Also, I know that some tires include a one year road hazard protection, even as OEM equipment. You should check with Continental (I believe you have the ContiSports)to see if it is offered on your tire. It is typically pro-rated but may mitigate some of the costs.
One of the very few things I found lacking in the BMW Owner's Documentation was the tire warranty information, which in my case was non-existant. Every car I have Owned previously included that information in a pamphlet included in the Owner's Manual case. (and believe me, none were close to BMW's league)
Thanks for the advice. I'm convinced. I was stupid not to look at the damage immediately after I hit the pothole. I drove my usual (fill in blanks) speed after that and I am getting chills down my back spine thinking what could've happened. I am replacing it first thing tomorrow morning.
How's your new car working out for you? I hope it's breaking it nicely. BTW, another owner who bought his 3-series at BMW Peabody sent me an e-mail advising me that Kay is the most helpful customer service rep. I hope you won't have to deal with them any time soon but just in case...
I absolutely love this car! This being the first "luxury" car I've owned, I thought I would feel a little guilty after It sunk in that I owned a BMW. But that hasn't been the case. It is way too much fun and hell, I deserve it!
Thanks for the info on the service rep. I'll need it sooner or later.
Just wanted to report that I had a not so good experience today at a BMW dealership in Winter Park FL. All the 2001 325s they had were pretty well loaded and were in the 32-33K range. During a test drive the salesman told me they don't deal much,'cause if I don't buy the car, someone else will. When I asked about his CPOs, he informed me that he had some 1998 and 1999s and the least expensive started at $27,995.
I have an internet guy looking for a 2001 without all the packages, we'll see what he finds. If nothing, I'm going to take your advice and start shopping some CPOs around the southeast area. Ther were a few interesting cars in the list i shared with you.
I'm in a position where I don't "need" a car, I "want" one, but I can walk from any deal. I'm a contract negotiator by trade, so after spending 20 hours at a negotiating table with labor unions, I don't have any problem acting insulted and walking away.
I need to find a nice Bimmer soon though, my wife wants an IS 300 or an Acura TL!
Here here on the wagons. I absolutely love my 325iT. I agree that it could use a bit more power. However, it is nearly as fast as the sedan and only a shade harder to handle, thanks to the increased weight at the rear. However, the SP does a great job of turning this utilitarian vehicle into a great handling sports sedan. It's only a shade slower to 60 than the sedan and tops out at only a few miles per hour slower (thanks to the higher rear end).
As an added bonus, I think I'd be really getting a kick out of beating sedans and especially coupes with a wagon. I think the wagon concept is grossly misunderstood in this country...Can you imagine a nice S-curve and you blow by some pretentious coupe 10-20 mph faster? What a sight; am smiling just thinking about it.
You know...I have to agree. It's been gratifying to see the horrified looks on the other driver's face (usually Maximas and Accords) as I out accelerate them from the light (after they made pointed stares from the light to my car several times) and left them in the dust on highway on ramps...all in a wagon.
The wagon concept is coming back in America. Mazda has come out with a sporty Protege wagon. Lexus is coming out with a "sport wagon" version of it's IS300. I think that in time America will lose the image of the wagon as a large, cumbersome, boring vehicle that our parents drove. Gone are the Cutlass Cruisers and Buick Roadmasters. I just hope that people start to understand that they do not really need those huge gas guzzling monstrosities just so they can have cargo carrying ability.
Oh, by the way...what kind of milege are you getting? I'm usually seeing about 21-23mpg. I have yet to break 25mpg except once. Much of my driving is uninterrupted highway driving (although this month has been uninterrupted stop and go rush hour. the price for commuting at a sane hour.)
I forgot to tell you that the wagon comes standard with two small subwoofers in the cargo bay. My salesperson had told me this long ago. If you want more info, the Edmunds test of the 2000 323iT included a evaluation of the stero and they noted this feature. If you look in the trunk space you'll note two rear facing speakers. The ONLY potential purpose for such misplaced speakers is bass. As bass is generally non-directional for humans, this makes perfect sense (you can put your home stereo subwoofer anywhere in your room and it sounds like it's coming from everywhere). I don't know, but would assume, that the HK package would upgrade these speakers along with the rest. By the way, BMW has improved the standard head unit since the 323 review was published.
brave: I'm sorry about your tire. I agree with daswolf. Replace the tire. If not for warranty purposes but for safety.
I am very happy to hear the 330 is composed at highway running speeds. I do a lot of my driving in the 80 to low triple digits range. I am considering leasing one, and was a little concerned about its stability up high given its size (wheelbase/track width). I am assuming you have the manual, given you keep it above 3400RPM while crusing. However, you also mentioned a rev limiter. I didn't realize the manuals came with rev limiters. I know the E36 M3 does not, and have heard stories about drivers throwing connecting rods and warping heads from over reving. Does anybody know if all the E46 cars have limiters (including M3) ?
I haven't been to the track yet, with any of my cars. However, I must say it is tempting, especially considering the safetly and legal benefits of being "on a closed course with a professional driver". I know BMW and all other manufacturers always "urge you to obey all traffic laws" and "not attempt this on public roads". However, the driving I most enjoy is barnstorming down the highway. I always stay within the limits of myself and car. I also always leave time and space, for unexpected cars in my path or unexpected actions by their drivers. I usually always make sure their is a safe way to "ditch" such as a wider flat shoulder on both sides. I am very tempted by the highway race they have out in Las Vegas area. I believe they close like 50 miles of highway out in the desert. You race against the clock both ways. You are also on the road with all sorts of cars, from beemers, and mercs to vettes, vipers, porsches, caddies, and trans ams. However, they place a "maximum" suggested speed for your run, based on your car. I am sure most of us will run out of skill, nerve or hit an electronic limiter before that number. I also sure no matter what you drive it will humbing and inspiring to have a viper or vette or 911 turbo pass you in the strait at 180MPH+, making you feel like you standing still. Now, what would be nice to see are of course M5/M3, but also Aston Martins. They are luxurious and also pack some potent 500HP V12s, and thus are more of an ultimate "dream car" for 3 series driver, after you get tired of that M3 or M5 of course. Maybe once the M6 coupe comes out you could see and aspire to those too.
I am totally with you on the psychological warfare capabilities of a wagon. I often have to tell myself when racing against a 540 wagon that is still a BMW 540, and not "handicap" myself. Now, as for Buick Roadmaster wagons, you still need to be careful. A last generation Buick Road master Wagon is RWD and can be had with around 275 and 320ft/lbs of torque. I also think it has closer to 50/50 weight distribution than the sedan, thanks to the rear end. They are also very wide and low, helping with center of gravity. I am not saying you have to worry about them in the twisties, but on the highway, especially in the straits watch out. My family had one. I actually drove a bit, when I first got my license. I use to love to make it burn rubber at the light, and rip past mustangs, jettas, and even the BMW 318/323/325 of the era. A nice bonus was no speed limiter. You should see the looks on peoples faces when a big "Bur-ick" passes them at a 120.
Roadmaster: That's a great story! There ya go...another plus for the wagon side! What I would LOVE to see would be a 330iT...or my dream car...a 3 wagon with the M3 engine and running gear. Imagine it with the same old 325i badging. Now imagine the poor soul in the S4 Avant staring in shock at your taillights.
Rev limiter: Well...even in the prior generation 3 series I believe they had a rev limiter. However...you can still ruin your engine by shifting into 2nd while at 80mph, and popping the clutch. One of my friends did this. He thought that he was shifting into 4th, but blew his engine instead. It was a pretty penny to fix. I knew he actually broke the timing chain, messed up the valves, and blew a few gaskets. He still has his 328i and has gotten 100k more miles out of the engine since the blowout.
I was going on I-95 this morning, and I heard some weird noise coming from the rear, after 2 or 3 seconds, I lost control a little. when I looked up at the rearview mirror, I saw a black round thing rolling on the road, IT WAS MY TIRE!!!
I pulled over and the only thing that was left on the rear right wheel were the 2 sidewalls of the ContiSports Contact. Nothing else! The whole tube was gone!!!
So I tried to call the BMW roadside assistant, their response was that they couldn't find anyone who was "willing to take the job", because they had only a handful of towing companies in my area...
So I changed it myself, and went to the dealership, after inspecting the "remains", they tried to tel me it was becase the tire was running flat for a while, and the side wall was touching the road, so the whole thing broke off. I found it a little odd, I didn't even feel/hear anything irregular until just before the incident.
I'll have to bring it up again next monday when their service dept opens, and have somebody look at it.
hippo168 - glad to hear you're OK but what a horror story with the tire... You have the 325i SP, right? And you, daswolf, and I all use BMW Peabody. Please let us know if you have any road hazard coverage on the tire. I do check the tire pressure once every couple of weeks. At any rate, you have a new car and there's no reason why any tire would have to lose so much air (assuming that's what caused it to blow up). BTW, I read in the manual that the lug bolts tightness should be 72 lb ft - have the dealer check the lug bolts on the rim that you replaced with a torque wrench. Road Assistance should be renamed to Road Helplessness...BTW, was your rim damaged?
streetracer - all cars that I know of have rev limiters. This is the engine speed we're talking about, not a top speed electronic governor. BTW, I have the 325, not the 330, and as I specified, the rev limiter kicks in at 6,700 RPM's in second gear. Yes, I have the manual and yes, the car is exceptionally stable and nimble in the low 100's. It was, afterall, enginnered to have a sweet spot in that speed range. I think 107+ inches is sufficiently long for a wheelbase - anything longer than that may be even more stable but at the expense of weight increase.
Once again, I'm asking for help from all you pros out there. I have a Jet Balck 2001 330xi that I purchased six weeks ago. I keep it garaged at night and also during the day while at work. It is exposed to the elements from time to time when I'm driving it and when it's parked at stores and the like. Today while washing it I noticed something very strange. On the hood there were several (I'd say perhaps a dozen) of marks on the finish that are hard to describe. There is a small pin tip sized dot, and around this dot is an irregular shaped grayish, purplish smudge. It would not wash off, and I could not feel anything on the surface of the finish. It looks to me the way acid rain might affect a finish over a long period of time.
I have ordered the Zaino prodcuts, but have not yet used them. Does anyone have any ideas of what this could be? Could it perhaps be some corrosion under the clear coat? Any advice or suggestions would be appreciated.
I would be more entheused about the wagon if the beltline did not have such a pronounced upward sweep as it goes back.It was done to lend the supposed sporting wedge,but it makes the back seat unnecessarily claustrophobic. The low cowl/low beltline is what has made Honda cabins so inviting. Also,I wish the D-pillar had a more Volvo-like vertical orientation.The Bimmer's sweep so cuts into cargo dimensions. When I first heard of the wagon,I was very exicted,but I must say the stressing of "sport" is dissapointing.Being a BMW,sport is a given.Its design could have been more subtle.
I apologize for the confusion on your car. The 325 is also an exceptional car. I would suspect it might even be a little more nimble than its bigger brother, with closer to 50/50 weight distribution. I know you were talking about the rev limiter, as oppose to a speed limiter. I was just unaware manual BMWs had them, even though almost all cars do. However, it makes sense that you can still get around it on the down shift. You down shift above the mechanical rev limit so the electronic one never has a change to kick in and save the engine. I wonder if the SMG (future) and automatic have safeguards that prevent the downshift in the first place, given electronic control of the clutch.
I test drove the Z3 3.0 roadster today. I also sat in the 330ci, 330i, and X5. I am going to go back and test drive 330ci and 540i.
I was disappointed in the Z3 acceleration with automatic, including using manual and sport mode. I thought the handling was nice and tight but a little lite in terms of steering.
The brakes seem strong but the peddle has very little travel, which may be giving a false sense of stopping power. You think you can press down more and stop even harder, but there is not much more to go. The car cornered nicely at slow and medium speeds, but not at the level of my exceptations. I will have to take it out for a higher speed run, if they will let me.
I thought the 330ci cabin had the best driver and front passenger room. The rear passenger room on the 330ci was far too small. The 330i sedan had more balanced cabin, but it seem cramp for both the driver and passengers. I usually drive alone or with one other person, so the coupe or roadster is a better fit.
I think the fit and finish of the interior and exterior were best on the 330i/330ci. The roadster seemed a little bit less posh, which is fitting with its nature. The roadster might make the most sense for me near turn. I am in the market for a second car right now, and won't be replacing my daily driver for at least another year. I like the 330i and 330ci exterior surfaces, the use of actual metal and deep paint. I think a lot of the look of beemers comes from the use of metal, as oppose to composites. The cockpit in the 330 was very low and ecapsulating, suprizingly similar to my car. I know many beemer owners who have complained about the "bathtub" cockpit of Pontiac GTP and Trans AM.
I think the best thing about the 330 interior was the smell and feel, especially the smell (type of leather???). The feel of everything was soft yet firm, and very heavy. I think this also has to do with the use of metal, leather, and wood.
I know the Z3 3.0 is quicker than the 330ci (same engine/trans with 500 to 6000lbs less weight), so it seems the 330 might not satisfy my acceleration jones. However, I want to see if the extra weight actually improves the car's stability, so will drive it anyway. I also felt in the Z3, that a SUV could roll over me and not notice. They would have to catch me fist of course, but there are some fast ones out there like X5 4.4, not to mention those old turbo GMC Typhoons.
I want to drive the 540i too, and sample its V8. However, both BMW and the mags usually get better times for the Z3 3.0. I know the BMW numbers for the automatic are 6.0 on the Z3 3.0 and 6.1/6.2 on the 540iA. However, the Z3 3.0 did not appear to be in that performance range. The dealer insists the 540 sport package is faster, not sure if he was considering auto vs auto.
Personally, I like the outward design of the wagon and think that it's one of the most beautiful wagons ever designed, especially after returning from Europe, where stylish wagons are very common. The upward sweep and hatch design work very harmoniously with the rest of the design. A more upright D pillar would cause some design imbalance (Camery wagon or Accord wagon anyone?) between the angle of the C pillar and the D pillar. However, I agree that it could use some more interior space. It seems as if they have maxxed out the space given the exterior dimensions. Apparently, the suspension design has a lot to do with the interior space as well. Also, the upward sweep of the body does cut into rear visibility. The rear window is suprisingly small for a wagon. As for the high beltline, none of my friends have been disappointed with the back seat.
One nice thing about the wagon, though...the more upright doors make loading cargo and installing things like baby seats much easier than in the sedan, where the wedge shaped doors hamper rear seat entry/exit.
hipo - you say the tire's side walls were still on the rims? And the tire had torn itself off and went rolling off? If so, it sounds like you had a flat tire (quite difficult to tell that it's flat) and after enough grinding the rim on the side walls, they tore themselves off.
streetracer - That's a rather diverse range of cars to be looking at. Are you really looking seriously at all of them or just "taking them for a spin" to see how they feel? Just wondered.
With the moonroof in the tilt position, does the one touch close feature work? One touch works fine for me in every situation except closing the moonroof from the tilt position. I'm wondering if this is normal or a defective switch.
gurumike - that's what the people in my dealership told me (see #8524). The only strange thing was that I didn't notice anything abnormal until the few seconds before it happened. There was no noise, no uneven balance, etc...
daswolf - I think the one touch feature WON'T work if the roof is in the tilt position. MY salesperson especially reminded me to push the button forward until I hear the roof closes.
I bought my 325 last month and it overheated while caught in a traffic jam. I had to pullover a few times and even turned on the heater to dissipate the heat. I would like to know what this incident has done to the engine such as ruined oil seals, possible breakdown of engine fluids and the like. The BMWs have been having this problem lately which is rather disappointing. So much for the "ultimate machine".
I saw an old post in www.bimmer.org and it says that DBC are not in the earlier built 2001 cars. Since my 330ia's build date is Nov of last year, does my car have it or not? If yes, how can I find out? Because before I read that post, I thought DBC is standard on every 2001 cars. Thanks.
You and the BMW sales guys must be on the same wavelength, that was their exact words. However, here is my reasoning. I will mostly be likely leasing two new cars within the next 12 months. A weekend car, something sporty with no focus on practicality. A daily driver, something quick and agile, but that can hold people and things, and deal with rain and snow.
I would consider the 330, 330ci or 540 to be possible daily drivers. I like the size of the 540 and its raw power. However, I am partial to two doors. I also think the 3 series offers of more the "bmw" thing, relative to my current cars. The Z3 3.0 would be a possible weekend car. I will be getting the weekend car first, possibly within the next few weeks. The daily driver is at least 12 months out.
The quote on the Z3 3.0 lease was 575 a month, including tax, for 10,000 miles a year and 36 months. The purchase price was 38,000 on a list of 42,000, with 57 percent residual. A new RAM AIR Trans AM by comparison, will actually lease out at 600+ a month for 36 months.
The residual does you in on the muscle cars, it prices out for 32,000 but is probably only worth 15K after three years. I guess I could just buy one cash now. I am not sure if the model years with the new Corvette based LS1 engine are in that price range yet.
However, in terms of pure performance numbers, you are getting an M3/M5 level car. A 5.0 0-60 and 13.4 1/4 at 104 mile with the automatic (4.9 and 13.1 with 6 speed), and .90G of grip. Now, before you get stared, I know the Ms have those numbers and are also luxury sedans. I also now have zero belief in third party performance data in terms of both applicability and validity, from recent test drives.
The M cars actually all had at least a two year wait, including M3, M5, M Roadster, and M Coupe.They had a M3 convertible on display. I sat in it is was very nice. I got politely yelled at for playing with the shifter/clutch with the car off, is this bad for it ? I thought it felt very smooth, but seemed like it was easy to pop into R when going for first or third.
I'm amazed that you got your test drive! My local BMW dealership is so snotty that they won't even take my purchase order! Or so it seems. The sales guy tried to confuse me about their limited monthly allotment from the factory or maximum quota -- probably trying to backtrack into a higher bargaining position to leverage the most bucks out of me. Phooey.
I just made an order for my first BMW yesterday. '02 325i Steel Gray Metallic, Gray Leather SP, PP, CWP, Zen, CD. Thanks to everyone for posting here in the last few months. I've been lurking here since May. I have to say that love the whole BMW lifestyle. I bought the car based on performance alone. No other car in the world drives like a bimmer. For years my wife and I were enamored by the quality and value of Japanese products. But once we drove a German auto we were SOLD. She's driving a 00 VW Jetta 1.8T (which I love to flog) and I will keep the 89 Honda Accord until it absolutely dies. I've gotta have an all weather for the IN winters. Ten weeks until bimmer bliss.
After a couple of the posts in the last few days, and the tire incidents described therein, I think it bears repeating that there are some universal truths associated with radial tires:
-The sidewall of a radial has to be able to flex, [it is what distinguishes any radial tire from its cross-ply counterpart], and thus is subject to heat and stress from the flexing. NEVER, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, DRIVE ON A RADIAL TIRE WITH SIDEWALL DAMAGE.....PERIOD. Moreover, because the ability of the sidewall to flex is central to the performance of any radial, any damage to the sidewall should be considered terminal. Do not use it as a spare, do not drive on it...good for backyard swinging or a road hazard warranty claim, but never for driving. Ignore this rule at your peril, particularly on any "performance" car like the 3er.
-Tread separations, tread / carcass adhesion irregularities, vertical runout [out-of-round], horizontal runout [wobble]...all of these occur even with the best manufacturers in the world. The primary reason is that making any radial tire is forcing disparate pieces of differing materials with differing expansion/contraction rates together in ways that Ma Nature never intended. This is exacerbated by the fact that virtually all radial manufacturing still involves enormous amounts of handwork, which is inherently error-prone. Thus, EVEN THE BEST TIRE MAKERS will produce and release some small number of tires that are going to fail. Frankly, there is no fool-proof defense, except to check pressures weekly and be on the alert for any sudden increase in vibrations. [On a sidenote, all of the Big 5 worldwide tire manufacturers are working feverishly at getting more automation, and thus both lower costs and better quality control into the factory process...each is taking their own run at the problem, but all are aiming at the same goals.]
Those of you here are, by definition, car and driving enthusiasts. That said, there is no area of automotive lore that is as full of falsehoods and campfire legends than the tire business, with some of the so-called "techs" in the dealer body being the worst offenders. Check your pressures at least once a week; IMMEDIATELY investigate any vibrations. These cars should not shake, just as they should not leak oil or drop parts on the pavement. And shaking [these days, on any relatively new car] is almost NEVER due to wheel balance...it is almost always a sign that the total wheel/tire package has some dimensional irregularity that needs attention. Tires are expensive, but they are cheap compared with the damage that can be done if things go suddenly wrong...if in doubt, replace, do not repair.
I had to work HARD to get 2% off MSRP. Edmunds had TMV for 01 somewhere around 2% off. That was what I was prepared to pay in this one dealer market. I started at 3% but after wasting half of my precious Saturday I backed down for 2% plus floor mats and the black molding to replace the front license plate.
I had Conti Touring tires on my 99 323i, and after two years they developed serious cracks on their sidewalls, with front tires being more serious than rears. A guy in Tire Kingdom told me that he had the same tire on his Mazda Protege with the same problem. I called and e-mailed the pics of my tires to Conti Tires Corp, and they called me back and told me to replace the tires, for which Tire Kingdom charged me $25 per tire + all that stuff that goes with tire replacement, which was a total of about $150 (incl. tax). The reason I am saying all that is that Contis seem not to be perfect, yet they probably are better than Firestones that Ford mounted on their trucks.
RE: the post above on Contis with sidewall cracking...
I do not share the enthusiasm of some on this board for Continental and their products. Generally, I have gone out of my way to avoid them on my German cars, after having to replace the OEM Continentals on two of my Mercedes [with Michelins that both times completely solved the problem] because of two or more tires of the original set of 5 being seriously out of round. Now, I would be very demanding of any new car with Contis as OEM - a long test drive under varying temp conditions, and even then, I would immediately budget for replacements.
My experience puts Michelin first, followed by the Japanese [Dunlop, Yokohama, Bridgestone, probably in that order]...
Hippo - sorry to hear about your experience with the ContiSports...I would think you would've definitely have noticed some oddity if the tire was really going flat. Glad to hear your rim is in good shape, however. It is difficult for me to tell if these low profiles are underinflated sometimes, so I check every other week...
Daswolf - I'm pretty certain that the tilt function is not one-touch close. I thought the same thing when I tried it. I'm too damn lazy to check the manual or pop in the tape sometimes. However, I notice that when you slide the button to close the tilt position, it doesn't seem to have a "closed" reference and attempts to "reclose" the tilt operation.
Streetracer - Well, it sounds like you're in a nice position to be in! For a daily ride, I would think that the 540i would be a preferrable choice (size, V8 acceleration, luxury), however, it seems that your taste in 2-door species would probably land in something like 330ci if not an M3. Either way, like I said, it's always fun during that search for the right vehicle for you...good luck!
Otherwise, I don't have too much to expand on with my 15-day old 325i. It has yet to give me any concern whatsoever. Well, maybe except this...sometimes from 3rd to 4th and 4th to 3rd, I feel the clutch giving me a slight pulsating resistance when I disengage it (step into it). Is this normal during breakin? BTW, it has 1150 miles as I speak. It didn't occur to me until recently (maybe the last 400 or so miles). Anyways, before I call and ask the service guy, I was wondering if anyone had this experience or if anyone even understands my explanation...otherwise, it is breathtaking everytime I ignite this driving machine! Sometimes, I don't want to get out of the car! It IS addicting! BTW, I'll post some pics soon...
And Continentals are among the worlds finest tires. In The USA, Michelin is far a and away the most "popular" (considered the best) brand for tires. The fact of the matter is that ANY good make of tire will offer virtually identical performance in the real world. Everyone has a story about one brand of tires and how they "had problems" and that person "had to change" to their favorite make. I have no clue what one could possibly achieve by any "test drive" that would show up any characteristic of a tire where a different make would perform differently (provided same size & speed rating). You can tell when someone has no idea what make a tire click when they make comments like "I don't like the handling on the limit as much as Brand X". Michelin Green Xs (touring), Bridgestone Turanzas and Conti touring-contacts are perhaps the three best tires of their type on sale. Debating which tire is "better" is no different than arguing that Chevron Premium is "better" than Premium from Mobil, Shell or BP (etc etc). Or that blue is better than red or green. It depends on who you talk to. It's all subjective and there is no right answer.
Comments
Does anyone know why we currently do not have any 4 cylinder or diesel versions of the 3 in the states?
Cheers, Daniel
I did not get leather in my 2001 325i. I dont regret a bit.
Good luck!
Dan
For 4-bangers, a brief look at the sales history of the late 318-ti will tell you all you need to know.
master: I'm one of the first to accept that you get what you pay for. But I'm from a culture where the sticker price is just a suggestion. So I've had no qualms about offering $5000 for a car the dealer says is going for $8995. (My 93 Dodge Shadow which I drove for 2 1/2 years before I sold it for just under half that [would have got more but had a minor ding or two])
I also knew exactly what I wanted to spend on my car this time around. I'll admit I exceeded my limit by $1500-2000, but got a great interest rate that balances it out perfectly. (I asked for 14% off, got 10, which is ok in my books)
Maybe you should take me along to negotiate your next deal.
Personally, I've always believed that dealers start high and expect you to negotiate. I don't like the process but I work too hard for my $$ to just give it away without a token resistance
silver: Glad to help. Hope you find your thrill like the rest of us.
Bon weekend!
A warning to all of you: be careful what you clean your windshield with at gas stations. I was rubbing some spots hard to get rid of the dead bugs and bird droppings before I noticed that the blade was worn out and some of the scratches it left are not going away. Ahhh, well...I rarely go 3 or 4 months without having some flying rock hit it anyhow.
The faster you drive the 3-series, the more composed it feels. You can definitely tell that this car has been engineered to perform best at high speed. It seems to me that the sweet spot is between 90 and 120 - you can switch multiple lanes at a time instanteniously, or brake fast if you have to, or both. The car feels as solid and stable in that speed range as it does at 50 - it is truly amazing!!
wagons: The more I hear how some posters think that wagons are uncool, the more I think I'd like to have one, probably in a few years when we have two kids. A BMW wagon performs 98% as well as the sedan/coupe and I think it looks very appealing, IMO. Also, the key thing for my driving style is that it looks like a responsible vehicle. See, if you get pulled over going twice the speed limit in the ramp driving a coupe, the cop will be like "This yuppie guy is dangerous and must be stopped". You do the same in a wagon and the cop will be like "Well, this mature, responsible parent got a little carried away but I'm sure he'll slow down as soon as he picks up his daughter from the dance lesson. I guess I'll let it slip". If that's the image wagon drivers portray, I could care less if twenty-somethings think the wagon looks uncool. It's a Bimmer in every way and I like the looks of it a lot. I wish they sold the 330T, though - I suspect the 325T may be a little slow for my taste with that added weight.
The Shtroumpf is fast approaching 5K miles. Wondering if I'd be able to fit in a 5K write-up the size it deserves on this board
Silverprincess, my car has the exact same options as the one you are looking at (even the same colors) except no sunroof, but mine has leather. I have a 2000 with 8,000 miles. If the car you are looking at is in great shape, $26,990 sounds fair. You might offer $1,000 less and see what the response is - it can't hurt. I suspect my car is worth about $29,000. Make sure you let us know what you decide and if you get any additional discount.
Also, I know that some tires include a one year road hazard protection, even as OEM equipment. You should check with Continental (I believe you have the ContiSports)to see if it is offered on your tire. It is typically pro-rated but may mitigate some of the costs.
One of the very few things I found lacking in the BMW Owner's Documentation was the tire warranty information, which in my case was non-existant. Every car I have Owned previously included that information in a pamphlet included in the Owner's Manual case. (and believe me, none were close to BMW's league)
How's your new car working out for you? I hope it's breaking it nicely. BTW, another owner who bought his 3-series at BMW Peabody sent me an e-mail advising me that Kay is the most helpful customer service rep. I hope you won't have to deal with them any time soon but just in case...
Thanks for the info on the service rep. I'll need it sooner or later.
Just wanted to report that I had a not so good experience today at a BMW dealership in Winter Park FL. All the 2001 325s they had were pretty well loaded and were in the 32-33K range. During a test drive the salesman told me they don't deal much,'cause if I don't buy the car, someone else will. When I asked about his CPOs, he informed me that he had some 1998 and 1999s and the least expensive started at $27,995.
I have an internet guy looking for a 2001 without all the packages, we'll see what he finds. If nothing, I'm going to take your advice and start shopping some CPOs around the southeast area. Ther were a few interesting cars in the list i shared with you.
I'm in a position where I don't "need" a car, I "want" one, but I can walk from any deal. I'm a contract negotiator by trade, so after spending 20 hours at a negotiating table with labor unions, I don't have any problem acting insulted and walking away.
I need to find a nice Bimmer soon though, my wife wants an IS 300 or an Acura TL!
I'll keep you posted, thanx for the help.
jbreez1
The wagon concept is coming back in America. Mazda has come out with a sporty Protege wagon. Lexus is coming out with a "sport wagon" version of it's IS300. I think that in time America will lose the image of the wagon as a large, cumbersome, boring vehicle that our parents drove. Gone are the Cutlass Cruisers and Buick Roadmasters. I just hope that people start to understand that they do not really need those huge gas guzzling monstrosities just so they can have cargo carrying ability.
Oh, by the way...what kind of milege are you getting? I'm usually seeing about 21-23mpg. I have yet to break 25mpg except once. Much of my driving is uninterrupted highway driving (although this month has been uninterrupted stop and go rush hour. the price for commuting at a sane hour.)
brave: I'm sorry about your tire. I agree with daswolf. Replace the tire. If not for warranty purposes but for safety.
Rev limiter: Well...even in the prior generation 3 series I believe they had a rev limiter. However...you can still ruin your engine by shifting into 2nd while at 80mph, and popping the clutch. One of my friends did this. He thought that he was shifting into 4th, but blew his engine instead. It was a pretty penny to fix. I knew he actually broke the timing chain, messed up the valves, and blew a few gaskets. He still has his 328i and has gotten 100k more miles out of the engine since the blowout.
I pulled over and the only thing that was left on the rear right wheel were the 2 sidewalls of the ContiSports Contact. Nothing else! The whole tube was gone!!!
So I tried to call the BMW roadside assistant, their response was that they couldn't find anyone who was "willing to take the job", because they had only a handful of towing companies in my area...
So I changed it myself, and went to the dealership, after inspecting the "remains", they tried to tel me it was becase the tire was running flat for a while, and the side wall was touching the road, so the whole thing broke off. I found it a little odd, I didn't even feel/hear anything irregular until just before the incident.
I'll have to bring it up again next monday when their service dept opens, and have somebody look at it.
streetracer - all cars that I know of have rev limiters. This is the engine speed we're talking about, not a top speed electronic governor. BTW, I have the 325, not the 330, and as I specified, the rev limiter kicks in at 6,700 RPM's in second gear. Yes, I have the manual and yes, the car is exceptionally stable and nimble in the low 100's. It was, afterall, enginnered to have a sweet spot in that speed range. I think 107+ inches is sufficiently long for a wheelbase - anything longer than that may be even more stable but at the expense of weight increase.
I have ordered the Zaino prodcuts, but have not yet used them. Does anyone have any ideas of what this could be? Could it perhaps be some corrosion under the clear coat? Any advice or suggestions would be appreciated.
When I first heard of the wagon,I was very exicted,but I must say the stressing of "sport" is dissapointing.Being a BMW,sport is a given.Its design could have been more subtle.
I was disappointed in the Z3 acceleration with automatic, including using manual and sport mode. I thought the handling was nice and tight but a little lite in terms of steering.
The brakes seem strong but the peddle has very little travel, which may be giving a false sense of stopping power. You think you can press down more and stop even harder, but there is not much more to go. The car cornered nicely at slow and medium speeds, but not at the level of my exceptations. I will have to take it out for a higher speed run, if they will let me.
I thought the 330ci cabin had the best driver and front passenger room. The rear passenger room on the 330ci was far too small. The 330i sedan had more balanced cabin, but it seem cramp for both the driver and passengers. I usually drive alone or with one other person, so the coupe or roadster is a better fit.
I think the fit and finish of the interior and exterior were best on the 330i/330ci. The roadster seemed a little bit less posh, which is fitting with its nature. The roadster might make the most sense for me near turn. I am in the market for a second car right now, and won't be replacing my daily driver for at least another year. I like the 330i and 330ci exterior surfaces, the use of actual metal and deep paint. I think a lot of the look of beemers comes from the use of metal, as oppose to composites. The cockpit in the 330 was very low and ecapsulating, suprizingly similar to my car. I know many beemer owners who have complained about the "bathtub" cockpit of Pontiac GTP and Trans AM.
I think the best thing about the 330 interior was the smell and feel, especially the smell (type of leather???). The feel of everything was soft yet firm, and very heavy. I think this also has to do with the use of metal, leather, and wood.
I know the Z3 3.0 is quicker than the 330ci (same engine/trans with 500 to 6000lbs less weight), so it seems the 330 might not satisfy my acceleration jones. However, I want to see if the extra weight actually improves the car's stability, so will drive it anyway. I also felt in the Z3, that a SUV could roll over me and not notice. They would have to catch me fist of course, but there are some fast ones out there like X5 4.4, not to mention those old turbo GMC Typhoons.
I want to drive the 540i too, and sample its V8. However, both BMW and the mags usually get better times for the Z3 3.0. I know the BMW numbers for the automatic are 6.0 on the Z3 3.0 and 6.1/6.2 on the 540iA. However, the Z3 3.0 did not appear to be in that performance range. The dealer insists the 540 sport package is faster, not sure if he was considering auto vs auto.
One nice thing about the wagon, though...the more upright doors make loading cargo and installing things like baby seats much easier than in the sedan, where the wedge shaped doors hamper rear seat entry/exit.
My friend took some pictures of the rim, and I'll try to post it here later... : )
streetracer - That's a rather diverse range of cars to be looking at. Are you really looking seriously at all of them or just "taking them for a spin" to see how they feel? Just wondered.
daswolf - I think the one touch feature WON'T work if the roof is in the tilt position. MY salesperson especially reminded me to push the button forward until I hear the roof closes.
I would consider the 330, 330ci or 540 to be possible daily drivers. I like the size of the 540 and its raw power. However, I am partial to two doors. I also think the 3 series offers of more the "bmw" thing, relative to my current cars. The Z3 3.0 would be a possible weekend car. I will be getting the weekend car first, possibly within the next few weeks. The daily driver is at least 12 months out.
The quote on the Z3 3.0 lease was 575 a month, including tax, for 10,000 miles a year and 36 months. The purchase price was 38,000 on a list of 42,000, with 57 percent residual. A new RAM AIR Trans AM by comparison, will actually lease out at 600+ a month for 36 months.
The residual does you in on the muscle cars, it prices out for 32,000 but is probably only worth 15K after three years. I guess I could just buy one cash now. I am not sure if the model years with the new Corvette based LS1 engine are in that price range yet.
However, in terms of pure performance numbers, you are getting an M3/M5 level car. A 5.0 0-60 and 13.4 1/4 at 104 mile with the automatic (4.9 and 13.1 with 6 speed), and .90G of grip. Now, before you get stared, I know the Ms have those numbers and are also luxury sedans. I also now have zero belief in third party performance data in terms of both applicability and validity, from recent test drives.
The M cars actually all had at least a two year wait, including M3, M5, M Roadster, and M Coupe.They had a M3 convertible on display. I sat in it is was very nice. I got politely yelled at for playing with the shifter/clutch with the car off, is this bad for it ? I thought it felt very smooth, but seemed like it was easy to pop into R when going for first or third.
Thank god the wait is almost over, but the wait has been less painful since I have been driving around in a 2001 320i for the last month.
-The sidewall of a radial has to be able to flex, [it is what distinguishes any radial tire from its cross-ply counterpart], and thus is subject to heat and stress from the flexing. NEVER, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, DRIVE ON A RADIAL TIRE WITH SIDEWALL DAMAGE.....PERIOD. Moreover, because the ability of the sidewall to flex is central to the performance of any radial, any damage to the sidewall should be considered terminal. Do not use it as a spare, do not drive on it...good for backyard swinging or a road hazard warranty claim, but never for driving. Ignore this rule at your peril, particularly on any "performance" car like the 3er.
-Tread separations, tread / carcass adhesion irregularities, vertical runout [out-of-round], horizontal runout [wobble]...all of these occur even with the best manufacturers in the world. The primary reason is that making any radial tire is forcing disparate pieces of differing materials with differing expansion/contraction rates together in ways that Ma Nature never intended. This is exacerbated by the fact that virtually all radial manufacturing still involves enormous amounts of handwork, which is inherently error-prone. Thus, EVEN THE BEST TIRE MAKERS will produce and release some small number of tires that are going to fail. Frankly, there is no fool-proof defense, except to check pressures weekly and be on the alert for any sudden increase in vibrations. [On a sidenote, all of the Big 5 worldwide tire manufacturers are working feverishly at getting more automation, and thus both lower costs and better quality control into the factory process...each is taking their own run at the problem, but all are aiming at the same goals.]
Those of you here are, by definition, car and driving enthusiasts. That said, there is no area of automotive lore that is as full of falsehoods and campfire legends than the tire business, with some of the so-called "techs" in the dealer body being the worst offenders. Check your pressures at least once a week; IMMEDIATELY investigate any vibrations. These cars should not shake, just as they should not leak oil or drop parts on the pavement. And shaking [these days, on any relatively new car] is almost NEVER due to wheel balance...it is almost always a sign that the total wheel/tire package has some dimensional irregularity that needs attention. Tires are expensive, but they are cheap compared with the damage that can be done if things go suddenly wrong...if in doubt, replace, do not repair.
The reason I am saying all that is that Contis seem not to be perfect, yet they probably are better than Firestones that Ford mounted on their trucks.
I do not share the enthusiasm of some on this board for Continental and their products. Generally, I have gone out of my way to avoid them on my German cars, after having to replace the OEM Continentals on two of my Mercedes [with Michelins that both times completely solved the problem] because of two or more tires of the original set of 5 being seriously out of round. Now, I would be very demanding of any new car with Contis as OEM - a long test drive under varying temp conditions, and even then, I would immediately budget for replacements.
My experience puts Michelin first, followed by the Japanese [Dunlop, Yokohama, Bridgestone, probably in that order]...
Daswolf - I'm pretty certain that the tilt function is not one-touch close. I thought the same thing when I tried it. I'm too damn lazy to check the manual or pop in the tape sometimes. However, I notice that when you slide the button to close the tilt position, it doesn't seem to have a "closed" reference and attempts to "reclose" the tilt operation.
Streetracer - Well, it sounds like you're in a nice position to be in! For a daily ride, I would think that the 540i would be a preferrable choice (size, V8 acceleration, luxury), however, it seems that your taste in 2-door species would probably land in something like 330ci if not an M3. Either way, like I said, it's always fun during that search for the right vehicle for you...good luck!
Otherwise, I don't have too much to expand on with my 15-day old 325i. It has yet to give me any concern whatsoever. Well, maybe except this...sometimes from 3rd to 4th and 4th to 3rd, I feel the clutch giving me a slight pulsating resistance when I disengage it (step into it). Is this normal during breakin? BTW, it has 1150 miles as I speak. It didn't occur to me until recently (maybe the last 400 or so miles). Anyways, before I call and ask the service guy, I was wondering if anyone had this experience or if anyone even understands my explanation...otherwise, it is breathtaking everytime I ignite this driving machine! Sometimes, I don't want to get out of the car! It IS addicting! BTW, I'll post some pics soon...