over in that other forum can be pretty rancorous at times - lots of harassment if you make any statement that could be remotely considered pro GM. I got sick of it and unsubscribed - found the personal attacks and insults to be infuriating.
granted there are a lot of good points in GM favor. But turn a rounds do not and can not occur over night. The big Q is, can GM get out of its own way to do it, and get all of their people working in the same direction.
To me, it is going to take GM at least 5-10 years to get back to the top of the mountain. Otherwise the force to look out for is going to be --> Toyota. [ JMHO ].
I am waiting for my new Catera to come in(with lux package I'm getting it for $23,000!) In the meantime,the dealer loaned me a 98 Intrigue with 33,000 miles on it.I'd driven them before,and loved them,but living with one has really driven home what a fine car it is. Other than the Catera,I think it is the finest car GM makes.I'm preaching here to the choir,I know,but I am at a loss to explain the demise of Olds.This should not have been a hard car to sell.As all others I've driven,the dash on this Intrigue is a little creaky,but not enough to ruin the car.I think it drives fantastic!If any here are on the fence about buying one,I would advise you go ahead and do it. It really is very entertaining-a car a car lover can get excited about. Now as far as the rest of GM....
Jgriff : The only Toyota has going for it is quality perception. Most of their cars are mediocre at best in the performance category. Only good car they have is the Celica.
GM bashing is a hobby of about 10-15 people on these boards. You can't talk to those people. It's one thing to criticize, it's another to abuse and attack on a personal level.
It'll be real depressing if Toyota does get 220hp in the 2002 camry as rumoured and the new Accord gets the TL motor/tranny. I would hate to be slower than that crowd.
My 2000 Intrigue had its first real problem. Tuesday night, it stalled twice on my and was really hard to start back up. Wednesday morning it started fine, but halfway to work, it stumbled and seemed to misfire, causing the check engine light to work. Subsequently it ran ok. The dealer looked at today. As the mechanic started it, it refused to start.
The computer said two things: crankshaft position monitor was bad and the oxygen sensor was bad. Anyone else seen this?
Gave me a Cavilier rental. Definitely makes me appreciate how well put together the Intrigue is/was ; )
I agree with you in that Toyota does not have great performance cars in their stables. You have to move UP to Lexus GS/SC to get something with a little bang. That new SC/430 looks dang pretty sexy.
I guess it just depends on what a person wants, *Performance & Excitement* or *Quality & Reliability*.
GM just wishes they'd had the vision and commitment to quality demonstrated by some of the Asian auto manufacturers!
I think that we on this board continue to bat this issue around without fully validating the automotive industry (and driving public) opinions that GM products are poorly engineered rattle traps. The now deceased Oldsmobile line-up (particularly the our beloved Intrigue...) is MORE than competitive with the comparable Asian products. The engineering and execution of the Olds line far exceeds anything else currently coming out of "Detroit." Though there will always be issues of quality control, frankly , the majority of the gripes I read (from the automotive magazine reviews) were either subjective tripe ("hard plastic dash buttons" "difficult to operate climate controls" etc.) or dealership customer service issues. The Intrigue is the first GM product I've ever purchased (September '00), and I would make the same decision today, even with the knowledge that GM would pull the plug on the division. In fact I'm a little honked off that I didn't wait two months to save five or six grand utilizing the current incentives!
I've said it before in this forum: GM has the goods, they just have no idea of how to sell them or to whom! Honda and Toyota have done a masterful job of defining a demographic and effectively marketing a consistent product to that group (effectively "cradle to grave" automotive marketing). Their methods have been so effective that the boring Accord and the uninspired Camry are two of the best selling vehicles on the planet.
This strategy did not happen overnight! GM management needs to take the long view and collectively pull their heads out. They've got to develop a coherent engineering and marketing strategy or they stand to lose additional market share to unimaginative but well-constructed imports.
Haven't heard from you in a while. My car does rough starts all the time. I just can't convince the dealer to look at the crankshaft sensor or cam sensor.
It has been over a year since the camshaft sensor problem first came to light. I wish my dealer could diagnose things as well as we can.
I'm all about discusing the Intrigue here and I'll put it up against comparably priced imports. As I've said before, the Intrigue is hard to beat on performance, style, and standard equipment level for the price. Over 34K on my 98 now and if I'm not careful I'll be paying overage charges on the mileage. No more leases for me unless it's a 15,000 a year allowance. Anyone know if Intrigue production has started again? Local dealers still seem very thin on selection.
I seem to be the only one interested in this but, what the hay, I'll say it anyway. Since I've been commeting on the Acura engine I decided to drive one to see if my assesment has been correct. Drove the Acura RL w/3.5 and I will admit, it was a nice car. Not worth $45,000 (I don't think ANY car above $35,000 is worth it) but a very nice car none the less. One of the problems I have with auto manufacturers that rely on VVT-i is that they don't even bother to getting the most out of the engine before using high-tech toys. What I mean is: 225 hp only AFTER using VVT-i???
As I drove I could feel the engine trying to decide how to time the valves. It wasn't harsh, rough, or jerky. But it was obvious. I then drove the 3.5 Aurora. Smooth across the board. And after reading the brochures I knew why.
Acura has the nerve to say in writing that it has a "broad, flat torque curve" right below a graph where the the torque curve looks like a mountain chain. It hits the 231 lb/ft torque at 2,500 rpm, drops to around 215 lb/ft at 4,000 rpm then back up to 230 lb/ft at 4,500 then drops off sharply.
The Olds steadily climbs, hits its peak and fairly drops off. I've driven the Chrysler 3.5 in the 300M and the 3.5 Magnum in the Intrepid R/T. It appears that the domestic engines try to push what they can out of their engines FIRST. It would be interesting to see what both Olds and Chrysler could do with high-tech gadgetry.
I think we've gotten so obsessed with horsepower numbers that we've forgotten about the application of it. I think that the Intrigue's performance can be improved drastically just by adding a 5 speed as some have said. I'm no mechanical engineer but I would think it wouldn't be too difficult or expensive to give us a 5th gear. Since the 3.5 puts out numbers that $50,000 luxury cars put out I'd like to see VVT-i used. If they do use it, I'd put it in the Grand Prix first.
Yeah, I know I'm rambling but the talk about horsepower in the Type-S got me going.
I think the Olds lineup has been the best example of what GM CAN do if they want to. I feel that GM is behind the curve in a number of things, quality being one of them. But keep in mind: quality and reliability are not necessary synonymous although they are used interchangeably. However, since I usually trade my cars in over 100,000 miles, what's more important to me is transmission and engine reliability. And one thing that can't be denied is that GM is about the best in the business when it comes to that. Good enough for BMW to use them in the 3-series. When it comes to engines GM was the first to come out with the 100,000 mile engine with the Northstar. And despite how "old-tech" the 3800 is, nobody disputes its dependability. The 3.5 has been winning races since its inception. Even some foreign manufacturers choose not to compete against Oldsmobile because of it.
If body panels are 2 microns off, so what? If the plastic on the dash (which I rarely touch) is made of hard plastic, big deal? While I think that GM should extend the 5/60 warranty to draw new customers, critics claim that Olds and Hyundai use the lengthy warranties to compensate for an inferior product. Using that reasoning, why do Toyota, Honda and Nissan provide 4/50 on the powertrains? Won't answer that but you see where I'm going.
I'm pushing 77,000 miles on my 98 Intrigue. No major problems. And since I've added the K&N throttle response btwn 2000 and 4000 rpm has improved greatly. According to most GM bashers my car should be ready for the heap by now. I think people have been looking at things with such a large magnifying glass that they don't remember what their looking at. Fit and finish has nothing to do with and is NOT the same as reliablity. Quality materials (which is highly subjective) has nothing to do with how long the car will continue to operate.
I think GM needs to work on a lot of things. Look at the mismanagement of Oldsmobile for examples. But GM reliability is another thing. GM cars are higher in initial quality than many of its foreign counterparts ( http://auto.com/autonews/cwirh17_20000517.htm ). I don't have facts on long term quality but if I use the same standard that foreign owners use (themselves), GM has excellent long term quality.
This might get deleted but it does have to deal with the Intrigue since it is a GM car.
"That's the way I see it, that's the way it outta be."
The five speed would certainly help with drop off in power on the 1-2 shift that is present in the 3.5L.
Were you comfortable in the intrepid? It just doesn't seem to have the legroom that the intrigue has. Also the intrigue has a much more open greenhouse.
Glad you were able to read it before removal. Another reminder, this is the Intrigue forum and in review; I believe your Intirgue went bye-bye almost a year ago, so why are you still bonded to us? You didn't own or drive yours far enough to have an opinion; so why do we have to sustain your heresay facts.. Go polish your Acura!!!
one2one----I had a chance in Florida to ride in a yr old 3.5 Acura with its little 210hp slush pump motor and rattling, bland body..It certainly wasn't abused for its owner was a 70+ female.. To each is own; but based on the price and performance my old 96 Northstar is in a different world. I ask my wife whether she would give up her Caddy for the 3.5 Acura; can't print her reply!!!
Your Intrigue with the 3.8 is past the critical stage in mileage buildup and 100k is a breeze for it..The alternator should go around 115k and the struts at 120k..
I bet you will miss the $1,000 expense of timing belt and waterpump around 80k.. It's a privilege that Acura/Honda owners have to belong to that exclusive club..
When you are as old as GM, Ford, and Chrysler you are bound to have disappointed somebody along the way..
3 of my 5 cars have been from GM. No disappointments, even with my 91 Cavalier (which was suppose to be a bad car). My biggest disappointment was with Honda service on my old Accord. I'll take Mr. Good wrench any day!
Next summer my wife and I plan a trip to Pennsylvania to tour Frank Lloyd Wright's Falling Waters home. The trip one way is 600+ miles from Milwaukee and of course requires travel through Chicago. I don't do much traveling and don't have the endurance that I did when I was 30 yrs old. Is this a distance that can be driven in one day in the Intrigue or would I be better off palnning a leasurely two day trip. By the way gas mileage on round trip to and from Appleton, Wi this week was 30.66 mpg in Intrigue at 69 mph.
The Intrepid is a little tight and the roof line a bit low. But I can't deny it... it was a blast to drive!!! Sounded and felt like a muscle-car. I don't know what's different about the 3.5 in the 300M and the 3.5 Magnum in the R/T but give me the Magnum anyday!
just curious as to why you chose to compare Olds latest 3.5 against Acura slightly outdated 3.5. Acura is just squeezing another year of sales out if it, before they make any major updates.
Try comparing the Intrigue 3.5 215hp to Acura 3.2 260hp 5-speed auto to boot. The Intrigue 3.5 is a very good engine coming from the Generals stable, but it still lags compared to the latest and greatest of others.
The Intrigue was simply a "GREAT Idea", "Poorly Executed". If someone could have magically guaranteed me a virtually trouble-free Intrigue, I would still be driving one today.
600 miles is doable in one day. of course it depends on what kind of traffic you are dealing with.
I do chas to washington dc every year and that is 550 miles. I make sure that i time it so that i get into wash. before 3 pm. It can easily be done in less than eight hours.
I have done chicago to chas. 920 miles in a day. also litchfield conn. to chas. almost a 1000 miles in one day.
I couldn't walk the next day but that is irrelevant. LOL.
The reason I choose the Acura 3.5 is because it is still in production and has the same displacement as the Olds. If the rumors surrounding the Olds 3.5 and Acura are true, it would be a mute point anyway.
The point I was making with the comparison is that the Japanese tend to take the "easy" way out with VVT-i before pushing the limits of the engine. As far as the Olds engine lagging compared to others, I disagree. Just the limp-home feature alone puts it ahead of any V-6 Toyota and Honda put out. The only V-6 it competes against that I would agree with you on is the Nissan 3.0. Now THAT is a very good engine!
I have to agree with you about the execution of the Intrigue's production. It seems from the problems that it had the first year that GM didn't do a good job of quality control of its suppliers. E.g. steering shaft (even though it was made thru a subsidiary), rotors, etc. They fixed them later, but you're right; they should have been more careful from the beginning.
One of the things I noticed about Japanese engines vs American and even German engines is that the Japanese seem to focus on horsepower instead of torque. It's been a while since I took physics in college but one thing I do remember is that horespower is not a true form of measurement. The true rating of power is torque. If anyone disagrees, please correct me.
This isn't a personal attack. It's just that you seem to be in tune with Asian engines. I'm just curious... my life won't end if I don't get an answer.
Torque is usually a function of displacement in a naturally aspirated engine. A larger dispacement engine has more torque so it can run a taller gear which gives it good highway numbers.
An car with a small displacement engine will get better around town numbers but will need to run steeper gears which will limit its advantage on the highway. This is why the 3800 gets slightly better mileage than the 3.5L.
The japanese cars were smaller due to width regulations. Gas is more expensive over there, hence the smaller cars and smaller displacement engines. As cars got bigger the japanese did not have the engines to pull the heavier loads, so they devised ways to get more power. Which usually meant higher revving engines, and less low end torque. The only way to increase horsepower of a specific sized engine is to increase rpms.
The 5.0L TPI engine in my camaro has so much low end torque that i can put the car in 5th gear a 25 mph and take my foot of the gas and it will drive for ever a t 750 rpms.
However at 4800 rpms it falls on its face. This is contrast to my intrigue that will flat blow it away on the highway.
If the K&N filter improves the 3.8 noticably between 2000 and 4000 RPM, I have to wonder what it could do for the 3.5. The 3.5 doesn't really come alive until you get above 3500. Would the midrange improve, or would you instead get more "blast" above 3500?
Agree with those who say a 5 speed would be a simple solution to the low-end weakness of the Intrigue. If the 3.5 continues production, surely Pontiac will offer a 5-speed combo, and we'll learn what "could have been".
looks like b4z summed it up pretty well. Me, I am glad that the Asians are putting out larger displacement engines at least in some of the upper end cars. But there is NO replacement for displacement. And I do not care for the Euro methods of taking small engines and turboing the heck out of them just to rise the HP stats, and not much on the torque side.
It is really too bad that Olds did not release the 3.5 from the get go, under price it a little, implement 5/60 warranty, and then go to town on the marketing. If the quality had been there, then maybe after a while the Intrigue would have been TOO HOT, and we would be talking a different scenario today.
Your trip from Wisconsin thru Chicago is a brutal one; so 600 miles will give you time to enjoy life. 1200 miles in the area where you are at is not good..
My longest mileage deals are approx 780 and that is done in 11 hrs. with cocktail time at the end in Jonesboro, Ga
cd96ns and b4z Yes going thru Chicago is always brutal. The trip to see Fallingwater in Bear Run, Penn will probably be extended to include a trip to the Smithsonian, and time in Washington D.C. Trip home will definately be broken down into two days. Driving thru hills of Penn. with the Intrigue should be great fun.
Someone on this forum has their Intrigue shod in the rain rubber tire w/80k warranty. In order to run 80k miles the rubber compound has to be hard; so it must be the tread design that dissipates the water..It's a less expensive tire and is T-rated; 118 mph.; and the normal 3.29 geared 99 Intrigue tops @ 108, really dumb because it is still trying to shift into 4th gear..
We know the Intrigue suspension is speed-rated for the old autobahn pkg and the new PCS deal uses the std Intrigue suspension with a speed-rated tire to get to the 130 mph speed-limiter.
The Buick Regal does not offer a speed-rated suspension/tire in any form in any model. Kudos to their struts.
The Pontiac GT 3.8 offers no speed-rated tires and shuts down at 108
The GTP has a different suspension components; and comes with a the speed-rated tires, good to approx 130mph..
The bargain hot-rod is the 3.5 Intrigue with PCS and spoiler..You need the downforce at speeds to keep the rear from squirreling.. Ask Audi what they had to do to the TT models because of handling problems over 90mph..
I have a 99 GLS and a 96 Caddy so please don't direct any questions to me on Asian type cars.. I am a fan of the German cars for they turn out some classic type machines and always consider a BMW or Mercedes a reasonable value. The dealer setup and attitude are a major drawback.
I am considering a 01/02 cheapie PCS equipped Intrigue to replace the 99 GLS.. 71ss had one equipped with spoiler, roof and driver control that could be the 20k hot rod. My question with the PCS option--will the system sense conditions during straight line top speed runs where it would automatically hold the engine back to compensate let's say for windy conitions(cross wind) and lower speed to 115mph.??? If the system is too smart then one is screwed with the 3.09 rear and touring tires.. There is an aftermarket fix for the speed-limiter and all one has to do is trade tires..
As I mentioned a little while ago, we are changing the names of some of our discussions to drop the various "Part" indicators.
Now that we have moved to our new platform, we no longer have the requirement to stop and restart discussions after the numbers of posts exceed a certain limit. Since this discussion can continue as long as anyone wants to talk about the Intrigue, there is no longer a need for the "VII" that has been included in the discussion name. Down the road, that could confuse our newer members so I have removed it. I altered the name of the original Intrigue discussion in the Archives to distinguish it from this one.
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On the first page of Sedan topics at EST 6:17 pm there were 87 different car forums; 39 of those were for Asian brands (45%),and the balance covered Big 3 and Europe..
Don't talk economics, politics, or culture because it doesn't fly on Edmunds. This is a car forum only; however if an owner of a Asian named car rips your domestic to bits; grin and bear it!!! It's called the future...
The USA is beginning to look like the rest of the world with HIGH-PRICED petrol. You want to cut gas consumption buy 3.1, 3.4, 3.8, and 3.5 V-6s.. The new I-6 270 hp is a dream; and GM is back up producing them in needed quantities..
Since the I-6 started out at 270 w/o tweaking; it has a beautiful future.. This is in full size SUVs, not midget sized SUVs with 250hp..
b4z-----Did the service manager return your call or will you let him off the hook???? Real estate sales are bad in the Carolinas; I would give a complete Detroit update but I could get into trouble..Ford is okay, GM is struggling, and Chrysler is on the block..
How did you like my idea on the hot-rod Intrigue.. I didn't realize that your Z was a 5.0; for I bought my wife one in 82, also a 5.0 and it was a whimp. The 71ss would run circles around it in 2nd gear. My wife's car caught on fire and burned up; an 82 trait..
No, he never did call me. I got busy doing grunt work and haven't had a chance to pursue. Had a closing today and got both sides, so that was pretty good. Will have a five figure month in April, but as yet have no closings lined up for May or June, and only one for July. I keep saying that things will pick up it hasn't yet.
Things are selling, just not like they were. We have seen an appreciation of about 63% in chas. since 1997. It couldn't go on forever.
My camaro is rare and i special ordered it. Your wife's car had 145 hp. 165 hp if it was a crossfire. I had a '83 Z28 with 5 speed and it would 0-60 in about 9 seconds. The 5 speed was the only thing that saved it from being gutless.
My '87 has 215 hp and was the first year for the Tuned Port and 5 speed. It will take your head off in first and second. All torque and absolutely no high rpm power. Turned 200,000 miles a few weeks ago. It is ready for only its third brake job now. I get 70,000 miles on each one. I have 95,000 miles on the clutch.
The intrigue starting making brake squeal noises last week. 32,500 miles. Will go there again soon, and talk to the man. Wish i had time to pursue arbitration.
The R/T has 242 hp. and the 300m 253 hp. Different chip is all. Have you driven a 3.5L intrigue with the 3.29 gear or PCS? I think you will find it as fast as the R/T.
I drove a 87 Formula 5.0 tuned port five-speed car about 5 or 6 years ago. Guy was selling it to clean out his garage... it had 48,000 miles on it. Bright blue metallic with gray cloth. It was a real blast to drive, but I didn't buy it for some reason that now escapes me. I think he was asking $7,500; seems like book was about $7,000 on a average miles car; his was low miles so a good deal. Oh well. But I got a new Formula last week, so I'm finally having some fun NOW!
Wife's Intrigue wouldn't start this morning after dropping our son at pre-school...turned key nothing, tried a couple of times, punched the accelerator and it started--but with Check Engine light illuminated along with PCS warning light and Trak Off light. Drove two miles home, started again without problem. Thought lights may have been due to loose gas cap. She made another couple of short trips without problem, then same series of events repeated. Took it directly to Oldsmobile dealer.
Dealer kept my 2000 Intrigue overnight and had it ready at 3 pm today. They replaced the Oxygen sensor and the Intermittent crank sensor. Car runs like it was brand new. After driving a 2001 Cavalier for a day, let me say one thing: "Thank God I've got my Intrigue back!" GM should be ashamed to be selling the Cavalier. It is a glorified piece of farm machinery--and I am sure some tractor's engines run smoother : ). Anyway, makes me appreciate that 1). the Intrigue is definitely quieter than the Cavalier, 2). the 3.5 is a very smooth engine, and 3). the structural integrity of the Intrigue is rock solid.
Bryan
P.S. Been to this dealer twice and they have treated me right twice. Now that is simply amazing. Hopefully I will never need their assistance again (besides oil changes) and they will have a perfect record. LOL!
I would like to report that last March I drove from North Carolina through Washington to Chicago in one day. As I recall that was better than 1000 miles and 14 hours. Of course the Intrigue (3.8 l engine) had no problem with this pace. A 600 mile drive will be a delight.
Oxygen sensors, crankshaft sensors, PCS lights, Check engine light, trac light, and various other maladies have not appeared in my 3.29 99er with 39.6k miles..My only glitch was after it sat in the garage in Mich for 2 1`/2 wks.. Upon starting it; backfired once, ran on a few cylinders for awhile, service engine light came on, ran it aound the block, shut the engine off, restarted--no service light, and once again smooth.
These engines like to be run, stretched a little, the pokey driving habits are not good, so take to the highway and run along at 2500/2750rpms for miles to keep the 3.5 happy.
Another good news factor is the Olds dealers are finally able to change filter and reinstall w/o creating a leak around the filter..I still like the 3k oil change for there are lots of moving parts in the Shortstar and I am sure fresh oil is appreciated--nobody likes flat beer????
bz4-----at 30k miles you have waited a little long for arbitration..Yours is a leased car if I remember right so just drive it.. The rear rotors on mine were replaced at 16,256 and the pads were done at 19,409 due to squealing, replaced per bulletin.. Fronts were resurfaced at 19,409 and at 34,429. Also the new rears were turned at 34,429.. All work was preformed under warranty..
I can hardly wait for warm weather and the warped rotor syndrome again; just bad driving habits--shame on me!!!!
Real estate is slowing in the Detroit suburbs for my son has been involved in residential since 1983 as a 100%er, previous agency owner; but enjoys the listing/selling game and not the people management end.. Weather permitting plays golf 3/4 times a week, and just got back from a couple weeks in Fla.. said it was time to hit the street..
Daughter is involved in the Sarasota area with real estate for the last six months due to their investments in rentals and fixup/resale deals.. I dumped my condo in W. Palm Beach and send the check monthly for furniture storage; so I am looking in the Ocala area for a senior/gated community w/decent golf course and tough community rules. Weak condo management was one of the reasons I dumped the W.Palm deal after 11+yrs..
Thanks for the Z-28 update on the 82 model; good looker but a whimp runner of a car.. 145hp explains it all..My wife saw the car in the Chev showroom--only one in stock and you can imagine the deal I got--ripped wide open--traded her mint 79 Cougar, cream exterior w/white interior and the 351 ci V-8.
By next Sat. the Intrigue will have 40k+miles for I got to trip down on business to central Ohio this week; so first week in May will be new tire time if they don't blow this week.
We complain about the ride quality in our intrigues. But the '82-'83 Z28's were probably the harshest riding cars ever produced. At 6000 miles mine had the structural rigidity of a wet noodle.
jgriff : Back for another round huh? You can't blanket your experience over everyone else. Ya, your Intrigue was a lemon, but most of them are good cars with AVERAGE reliability. I'm not sure what part of AVERAGE you do not understand. I am still trouble free after a year aside from a faulty temperature gauge. It amazes me that you can't let go of this car. You should just trade back up to one from your Honda.
Try as I might to contol my gas consumption, when the opportunity comes to make a high speed run against another car, I take it every time. Was just passing by a lane closure at about 50km/hr on the highway yesterday when I noticed I was just behind and to the left of a new Impala, silver with a leather interior. Noticed he gunned it when the lanes opened up and it was wide open in front of us.
Well not wanting to look at that "homely" plastic rear end anymore, I gunned it as well and pulled him in and walked away a couple car lengths till about 160kph at which point I eased up and slowed down to my usual 140ish. The Impala driver flew by at that point and kept his higher rate of speed.
Comments
Some die-hard GM fans, along with those who have felt GM burned and have made a switch.
Just in case anyone is interested.
Ken
To me, it is going to take GM at least 5-10 years to get back to the top of the mountain. Otherwise the force to look out for is going to be --> Toyota. [ JMHO ].
The computer said two things: crankshaft position monitor was bad and the oxygen sensor was bad. Anyone else seen this?
Gave me a Cavilier rental. Definitely makes me appreciate how well put together the Intrigue is/was ; )
Bryan
I guess it just depends on what a person wants, *Performance & Excitement* or *Quality & Reliability*.
As always, to each his/her own.
I think that we on this board continue to bat this issue around without fully validating the automotive industry (and driving public) opinions that GM products are poorly engineered rattle traps. The now deceased Oldsmobile line-up (particularly the our beloved Intrigue...) is MORE than competitive with the comparable Asian products. The engineering and execution of the Olds line far exceeds anything else currently coming out of "Detroit." Though there will always be issues of quality control, frankly , the majority of the gripes I read (from the automotive magazine reviews) were either subjective tripe ("hard plastic dash buttons" "difficult to operate climate controls" etc.) or dealership customer service issues. The Intrigue is the first GM product I've ever purchased (September '00), and I would make the same decision today, even with the knowledge that GM would pull the plug on the division. In fact I'm a little honked off that I didn't wait two months to save five or six grand utilizing the current incentives!
I've said it before in this forum: GM has the goods, they just have no idea of how to sell them or to whom! Honda and Toyota have done a masterful job of defining a demographic and effectively marketing a consistent product to that group (effectively "cradle to grave" automotive marketing). Their methods have been so effective that the boring Accord and the uninspired Camry are two of the best selling vehicles on the planet.
This strategy did not happen overnight! GM management needs to take the long view and collectively pull their heads out. They've got to develop a coherent engineering and marketing strategy or they stand to lose additional market share to unimaginative but well-constructed imports.
Enough ranting. I'm going to go wash my car.
"Day late & a Dollar short"
IF they are not careful.
The proof is in the pudding, take a look how they managed to muck up the Olds division.
cam sensor.
It has been over a year since the camshaft sensor problem first came to light. I wish my dealer could diagnose things as well as we can.
Thanks,
L8_Apex
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I seem to be the only one interested in this but, what the hay, I'll say it anyway. Since I've been commeting on the Acura engine I decided to drive one to see if my assesment has been correct. Drove the Acura RL w/3.5 and I will admit, it was a nice car. Not worth $45,000 (I don't think ANY car above $35,000 is worth it) but a very nice car none the less. One of the problems I have with auto manufacturers that rely on VVT-i is that they don't even bother to getting the most out of the engine before using high-tech toys. What I mean is: 225 hp only AFTER using VVT-i???
As I drove I could feel the engine trying to decide how to time the valves. It wasn't harsh, rough, or jerky. But it was obvious. I then drove the 3.5 Aurora. Smooth across the board. And after reading the brochures I knew why.
Acura has the nerve to say in writing that it has a "broad, flat torque curve" right below a graph where the the torque curve looks like a mountain chain. It hits the 231 lb/ft torque at 2,500 rpm, drops to around 215 lb/ft at 4,000 rpm then back up to 230 lb/ft at 4,500 then drops off sharply.
The Olds steadily climbs, hits its peak and fairly drops off. I've driven the Chrysler 3.5 in the 300M and the 3.5 Magnum in the Intrepid R/T. It appears that the domestic engines try to push what they can out of their engines FIRST. It would be interesting to see what both Olds and Chrysler could do with high-tech gadgetry.
I think we've gotten so obsessed with horsepower numbers that we've forgotten about the application of it. I think that the Intrigue's performance can be improved drastically just by adding a 5 speed as some have said. I'm no mechanical engineer but I would think it wouldn't be too difficult or expensive to give us a 5th gear. Since the 3.5 puts out numbers that $50,000 luxury cars put out I'd like to see VVT-i used. If they do use it, I'd put it in the Grand Prix first.
Yeah, I know I'm rambling but the talk about horsepower in the Type-S got me going.
If body panels are 2 microns off, so what? If the plastic on the dash (which I rarely touch) is made of hard plastic, big deal? While I think that GM should extend the 5/60 warranty to draw new customers, critics claim that Olds and Hyundai use the lengthy warranties to compensate for an inferior product. Using that reasoning, why do Toyota, Honda and Nissan provide 4/50 on the powertrains? Won't answer that but you see where I'm going.
I'm pushing 77,000 miles on my 98 Intrigue. No major problems. And since I've added the K&N throttle response btwn 2000 and 4000 rpm has improved greatly. According to most GM bashers my car should be ready for the heap by now. I think people have been looking at things with such a large magnifying glass that they don't remember what their looking at. Fit and finish has nothing to do with and is NOT the same as reliablity. Quality materials (which is highly subjective) has nothing to do with how long the car will continue to operate.
I think GM needs to work on a lot of things. Look at the mismanagement of Oldsmobile for examples. But GM reliability is another thing. GM cars are higher in initial quality than many of its foreign counterparts ( http://auto.com/autonews/cwirh17_20000517.htm ). I don't have facts on long term quality but if I use the same standard that foreign owners use (themselves), GM has excellent long term quality.
This might get deleted but it does have to deal with the Intrigue since it is a GM car.
"That's the way I see it, that's the way it outta be."
Were you comfortable in the intrepid? It just doesn't seem to have the legroom that the intrigue has. Also the intrigue has a much more open greenhouse.
one2one----I had a chance in Florida to ride in a yr old 3.5 Acura with its little 210hp slush pump motor and rattling, bland body..It certainly wasn't abused for its owner was a 70+ female.. To each is own; but based on the price and performance my old 96 Northstar is in a different world. I ask my wife whether she would give up her Caddy for the 3.5 Acura; can't print her reply!!!
Your Intrigue with the 3.8 is past the critical stage in mileage buildup and 100k is a breeze for it..The alternator should go around 115k and the struts at 120k..
I bet you will miss the $1,000 expense of timing belt and waterpump around 80k.. It's a privilege that Acura/Honda owners have to belong to that exclusive club..
When you are as old as GM, Ford, and Chrysler you are bound to have disappointed somebody along the way..
Try comparing the Intrigue 3.5 215hp to Acura 3.2 260hp 5-speed auto to boot. The Intrigue 3.5 is a very good engine coming from the Generals stable, but it still lags compared to the latest and greatest of others.
The Intrigue was simply a "GREAT Idea", "Poorly Executed". If someone could have magically guaranteed me a virtually trouble-free Intrigue, I would still be driving one today.
I do chas to washington dc every year and that is 550 miles. I make sure that i time it so that i get into wash. before 3 pm. It can easily be done in less than eight hours.
I have done chicago to chas. 920 miles in a day.
also litchfield conn. to chas. almost a 1000 miles in one day.
I couldn't walk the next day but that is irrelevant. LOL.
The point I was making with the comparison is that the Japanese tend to take the "easy" way out with VVT-i before pushing the limits of the engine. As far as the Olds engine lagging compared to others, I disagree. Just the limp-home feature alone puts it ahead of any V-6 Toyota and Honda put out. The only V-6 it competes against that I would agree with you on is the Nissan 3.0. Now THAT is a very good engine!
I have to agree with you about the execution of the Intrigue's production. It seems from the problems that it had the first year that GM didn't do a good job of quality control of its suppliers. E.g. steering shaft (even though it was made thru a subsidiary), rotors, etc. They fixed them later, but you're right; they should have been more careful from the beginning.
This isn't a personal attack. It's just that you seem to be in tune with Asian engines. I'm just curious... my life won't end if I don't get an answer.
An car with a small displacement engine will get better around town numbers but will need to run steeper gears which will limit its advantage on the highway. This is why the 3800 gets slightly better mileage than the 3.5L.
The japanese cars were smaller due to width regulations. Gas is more expensive over there, hence the smaller cars and smaller displacement engines. As cars got bigger the japanese did not have the engines to pull the heavier loads, so they devised ways to get more power. Which usually meant higher revving engines, and less low end torque. The only way to increase horsepower of a specific sized engine is to increase rpms.
This is why F1 engines rev past 17,000 rpms!!
However at 4800 rpms it falls on its face. This is contrast to my intrigue that will flat blow it away on the highway.
Agree with those who say a 5 speed would be a simple solution to the low-end weakness of the Intrigue. If the 3.5 continues production, surely Pontiac will offer a 5-speed combo, and we'll learn what "could have been".
It is really too bad that Olds did not release the 3.5 from the get go, under price it a little, implement 5/60 warranty, and then go to town on the marketing. If the quality had been there, then maybe after a while the Intrigue would have been TOO HOT, and we would be talking a different scenario today.
My longest mileage deals are approx 780 and that is done in 11 hrs. with cocktail time at the end in Jonesboro, Ga
We know the Intrigue suspension is speed-rated for the old autobahn pkg and the new PCS deal uses the std Intrigue suspension with a speed-rated tire to get to the 130 mph speed-limiter.
The Buick Regal does not offer a speed-rated suspension/tire in any form in any model. Kudos to their struts.
The Pontiac GT 3.8 offers no speed-rated tires and shuts down at 108
The GTP has a different suspension components; and comes with a the speed-rated tires, good to approx 130mph..
The bargain hot-rod is the 3.5 Intrigue with PCS and spoiler..You need the downforce at speeds to keep the rear from squirreling.. Ask Audi what they had to do to the TT models because of handling problems over 90mph..
I have a 99 GLS and a 96 Caddy so please don't direct any questions to me on Asian type cars.. I am a fan of the German cars for they turn out some classic type machines and always consider a BMW or Mercedes a reasonable value. The dealer setup and attitude are a major drawback.
I am considering a 01/02 cheapie PCS equipped Intrigue to replace the 99 GLS.. 71ss had one equipped with spoiler, roof and driver control that could be the 20k hot rod. My question with the PCS option--will the system sense conditions during straight line top speed runs where it would automatically hold the engine back to compensate let's say for windy conitions(cross wind) and lower speed to 115mph.??? If the system is too smart then one is screwed with the 3.09 rear and touring tires.. There is an aftermarket fix for the speed-limiter and all one has to do is trade tires..
As I mentioned a little while ago, we are changing the names of some of our discussions to drop the various "Part" indicators.
Now that we have moved to our new platform, we no longer have the requirement to stop and restart discussions after the numbers of posts exceed a certain limit. Since this discussion can continue as long as anyone wants to talk about the Intrigue, there is no longer a need for the "VII" that has been included in the discussion name. Down the road, that could confuse our newer members so I have removed it. I altered the name of the original Intrigue discussion in the Archives to distinguish it from this one.
Pat
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Don't talk economics, politics, or culture because it doesn't fly on Edmunds. This is a car forum only; however if an owner of a Asian named car rips your domestic to bits; grin and bear it!!! It's called the future...
The USA is beginning to look like the rest of the world with HIGH-PRICED petrol. You want to cut gas consumption buy 3.1, 3.4, 3.8, and 3.5 V-6s.. The new I-6 270 hp is a dream; and GM is back up producing them in needed quantities..
Since the I-6 started out at 270 w/o tweaking; it has a beautiful future.. This is in full size SUVs, not midget sized SUVs with 250hp..
b4z-----Did the service manager return your call or will you let him off the hook???? Real estate sales are bad in the Carolinas; I would give a complete Detroit update but I could get into trouble..Ford is okay, GM is struggling, and Chrysler is on the block..
How did you like my idea on the hot-rod Intrigue.. I didn't realize that your Z was a 5.0; for I bought my wife one in 82, also a 5.0 and it was a whimp. The 71ss would run circles around it in 2nd gear. My wife's car caught on fire and burned up; an 82 trait..
Things are selling, just not like they were. We have seen an appreciation of about 63% in chas. since 1997. It couldn't go on forever.
My camaro is rare and i special ordered it.
Your wife's car had 145 hp. 165 hp if it was a crossfire. I had a '83 Z28 with 5 speed and it would 0-60 in about 9 seconds. The 5 speed was the only thing that saved it from being gutless.
My '87 has 215 hp and was the first year for the Tuned Port and 5 speed. It will take your head off in first and second. All torque and absolutely no high rpm power. Turned 200,000 miles a few weeks ago. It is ready for only its third brake job now. I get 70,000 miles on each one. I have 95,000 miles on the clutch.
The intrigue starting making brake squeal noises last week. 32,500 miles. Will go there again soon, and talk to the man. Wish i had time to pursue arbitration.
Any one else had these symptons?
Bryan
P.S. Been to this dealer twice and they have treated me right twice. Now that is simply amazing. Hopefully I will never need their assistance again (besides oil changes) and they will have a perfect record. LOL!
These engines like to be run, stretched a little, the pokey driving habits are not good, so take to the highway and run along at 2500/2750rpms for miles to keep the 3.5 happy.
Another good news factor is the Olds dealers are finally able to change filter and reinstall w/o creating a leak around the filter..I still like the 3k oil change for there are lots of moving parts in the Shortstar and I am sure fresh oil is appreciated--nobody likes flat beer????
bz4-----at 30k miles you have waited a little long for arbitration..Yours is a leased car if I remember right so just drive it.. The rear rotors on mine were replaced at 16,256 and the pads were done at 19,409 due to squealing, replaced per bulletin.. Fronts were resurfaced at 19,409 and at 34,429. Also the new rears were turned at 34,429.. All work was preformed under warranty..
I can hardly wait for warm weather and the warped rotor syndrome again; just bad driving habits--shame on me!!!!
Real estate is slowing in the Detroit suburbs for my son has been involved in residential since 1983 as a 100%er, previous agency owner; but enjoys the listing/selling game and not the people management end.. Weather permitting plays golf 3/4 times a week, and just got back from a couple weeks in Fla.. said it was time to hit the street..
Daughter is involved in the Sarasota area with real estate for the last six months due to their investments in rentals and fixup/resale deals.. I dumped my condo in W. Palm Beach and send the check monthly for furniture storage; so I am looking in the Ocala area for a senior/gated community w/decent golf course and tough community rules. Weak condo management was one of the reasons I dumped the W.Palm deal after 11+yrs..
Thanks for the Z-28 update on the 82 model; good looker but a whimp runner of a car.. 145hp explains it all..My wife saw the car in the Chev showroom--only one in stock and you can imagine the deal I got--ripped wide open--traded her mint 79 Cougar, cream exterior w/white interior and the 351 ci V-8.
By next Sat. the Intrigue will have 40k+miles for I got to trip down on business to central Ohio this week; so first week in May will be new tire time if they don't blow this week.
How was yours before it burned up?
Well not wanting to look at that "homely" plastic rear end anymore, I gunned it as well and pulled him in and walked away a couple car lengths till about 160kph at which point I eased up and slowed down to my usual 140ish. The Impala driver flew by at that point and kept his higher rate of speed.
Nice to fly by one that isn't a radar trap.
Has anyone else experienced this? And if so, is it worth re-painting? Will OLDS do warranty repair on this?