Back in the early 80s I did CA to NC in 2 1/2 days. Middle day was 1,000 miles from AZ to OK and I did it in 12 hours! (only two 10 min stops for gas and restroom break)
The same day I picked up my OBS, I drove to SC from NJ. It took two hours longer than normal because of the break-in driving.
I know a guy on the i-club that lives in NY. He drove his RS to Tampa and traded it for a WRX. http://mastrowrx.com/andy.html That's his former dealer and they're a Prodrive distributor. He's driven to Alaska 7 times. Once in his RS.
The WRX STi is more of a competitor to the Evo than the WRX. Sport Compact car has a comparo between the RSX-S and the WRX wagon!
My personal opinion regarding the acceleration times of the wagon in this test is that a)the tester doesn't know how to launch AWD cars (WRX in particular) and b)with outside temps of 90 degrees, the WRX was experiencing heat soak with its intercooler. They registered 6.3 secs to 60mph. I know that I hover around 6secs with an easy launch (read: no clutch drop). The wagon's 80lbs weight penalty vs the sedan would only account for maybe 2/10 of second lag when compared to the avg times of the sedan based on a pleuthra of mag articles. Overall, the review was pretty fair and spot-on. The reviewer mentioned how easy it was to get the rear end of the wagon to come around compared to the WRX sedan they tested before. The tester actually preferred this and preferred the wagon over the Acrura RSX. As a side note, I put the 20mm rear sway bar from the sedan on my wagon and it makes a world of difference. Much less body roll and more planted rear end. I can still get the back to come around but I have to try much harder than before. I prefer this set-up to the stock.
Long Island to Buffalo, NY about 450 miles in 6 hours 15 minutes! I was in a 1986 Hyundai Excel with a four speed. I'm not really sure why, but after that trip it was harder to find people to drive with me! Most of my friends would take at least 7.5 hours.
The base invoice for a WRX sedan with manual tranny is $22,502 per KBB. 5% of that amount is $1,125.10. No matter which model of WRX it is, we're still talking over $1,000.
So you're saying $1,125 over invoice is a better deal than $500 over? How is that?
You REALLY need to stop trying to correct people's figures...
My dealer sold a YELLOW WRX for $250 over invoice. My buddy got it for $23,XXX with upgraded stereo, mirror, diffy protector and a boatload of other options.
Thanx Mc for correcting rex luther on that simple calculation and regarding $250 over on that ugly yellow is fine by me. It is fugly. I think 500 over is pretty good.
Rex did you pay 5% over or get screwed at $250. jk
Two people in my office own purple Dodges, a Stratus and an Intrepid respectively. Nice guys but I question their taste as I'm sure they question mine.
My Autoweek mag. had a nice little mention of the new STi available in Europe and Japan. It sounds more and more likely that Subaru will bring the car over in 2003 as a 2004. It is just a shame we have to wait until then!!! It would seem like there will be allot of exciting cars on the market then (EVO VII, Z350, G35, maybe a new Mustang and hopefully the new C6). It is a great time to love cars!
thanks ,,,,,,Im still in this state of amazement of owning the thing. I cant wait to drive it on some roads that have some twists and turns.......im sure I will turn into a speed racer and will make a hobby out of owning this WRX. I am gratefull for this forum. I probably would have talked my self into something more basic of a car and listened to that overdeveloped sense of practicality that defines much of my life. I have a magnet on my fridge that says "cleverly disguised as a respsonsible adult" I will have have devious pleasure out of buring the roads up "of course allways staying in perfect alingment of the laws!! " heehheheh This WRx is only in my life due to an unexpected inheritance. I am 43 and attending college. Studying for a masters degree and PLOP I find out im getting some money from a relative ive never met. I had no idea that it was going to be a nice chunk o' change that it is ,,,,,,,soooo I get to finish my school in a new car and more than ample funds during the process. enthusiam is contagious!!!!!!!!!!!!!
that said he did 450 miles in 6 hours 15minutes, thats really not that fast. i do 430 from santa rosa to los angeles about twice a month in my grand cherokee in 5 hours 10 minutes or so. thats on a car that has to stop for gas twice on that trip, since my tanks never full when i start and i get about 18 miles to the gallon in it.
I can't speak for others, but my A4 has been absolutely perfect in 6 months of ownership. It has been better than my 1998 4Runner was, and that was a good truck.
No, you don't take out holdback. I'd like you to find me a dealer who will go into holdback on a WRX...(most won't do it on any car, let alone a popular one). Holdback is not additional dealer prifit, it's a subsudy from the factory to help the dealership cover their flooring (interest) expenses from the factory. Dealerships have a TON of overhead, if you haven't noticed.
So you're saying that 5% over invoice is really 2% over invoice? That doesn't make any sense.
You take the invoice (as stated here or at KBB or wherever), and multiply by 5%. That's how you figure out how much over invoice 5% is.
Even if you were to take holdback out, you'd take it off the invoice price first - it wouldn't make your 5% over offer magically drop to 2%. So if the Invoice is $22,500, you'd subtract the 3% for holdback ($675) first, and then figure your 5% over off the new invoice amount of $21,825. 5% over that amount is still $1,091 (IOW, you saved yourself a whopping $34!).
Well, I couldn't get any dealers here to come off MSRP
I think you shouldn't worry about holdback, etc. Just find out how much you are willing to pay for the car. If they say yes, it's yours. If they say no, either re-adjust your sights or pick another car.
If I owned a dealership, I would NEVER go into holdback for anyone. It should have nothing to do with the sales price of the car.
yah, mmcbride, its actually all profit on orders like most of us got our cars from. Nearly pure profit, since there is no advertising, no floorplan allotment, none of that. It comes of the truck, they PDI (practically costs nothing except about 1 unit labor and $25 worth of gas). Most dealers DO go into holdback (except on truly in demand and exceptional vehicles), and thats why a good deal is "under invoice"....since the car industry has rooked the average consumer into believing as you do, that its a legitimate cost and should be left out of negotiations.
And also, either you did your calculations wrong or at least you are not explaining it correctly. Take the number you got, add 5% and you get 22916.25 , which if you subtract the original "invoice" amount of 22,500 from , you are left with $416.25. As i originally posted. and 5% is viewed in the car industry as an acceptable margin. I paid 5% exactly (over dealer cost) for my Volvo V70 T5 wagon the second week they were released. Of course when I walked onto the lot, the salesman tried to tell me I would be paying sticker because it was new and "really hot, thats why we only have 3"
blah blah blah. I would urge you to read the posts on www.beatthecarsalesman.com for the real scoop on what most dealers will sell cars for. The holdback myth is a huge hoax perpetuated on the gullible consumer. Unfortunately there are a lot of suckers out there.
Holdback is already built-in to the price of the car, even the invoice price. We all pay it, technically, because the dealer gets a 2 or 3% reimbursement after the sale.
So if you buy for $1 under invoice, they lose money up front, but then make a couple of hundred bucks once the manufacturer pays them the holdback.
To simplify:
Dealer cost = invoice - holdback - any other incentives
Most dealers will not go into their holdback. Some will. That's their choice. But I don't think it's the 'normal' course of business, not by a long shot.
But I see what you are trying to say. We are both saying the same thing, we're just using different terms.
There are tons of costs of doing business for a car dealership. Holdback just helps the dealership pay for it's staggering interest charges. Don't forget that they have huge insurance bills, salaries, benefits, mortgages, electric bills, etc.
Holdback is not 'pure profit'. It may or may not even show up on financial statements as revenue (it very well may show up as a reduction of interest expense). You'd probably want the dealership to not charge you for your car's portion of the electric bill since your car was only there for part of one day while the sun was up, too, wouldn't you? Maybe if you told them not to wash it, you could save $.30 on your portion of the water bill, too? Better yet, don't let a single person from the dealership touch it - you guide it off the truck and you prep it - and then you could cut another $50 off as well...
And the price you pay is not determined by you, it's determined by the market. Take BMW's (or Mercedes, or Audis, or Lexus) for example. If you went into a BMW dealership looking to buy a 325i and told the salesman you'd pay 5% over invoice but you wanted their holdback, you'd be laughed off the sales floor. Why? Because they can sell every single one they have for at or close to MSRP (which is $3-4k over invoice, BTW). Why should they sell to you for 2% over when the next guy in line will happily pay $500 under MSRP?
BTW - I'm a CPA, and I know a lot about the auto industry. I'm hardly a 'gullible' consumer.
Invoice-holdback-incentives+Profit to dealer = what I pay.
Profit to dealer = however much I feel the dealer should be making on the car as a whole, cheaper car profit is less, higher line car dealer makes more. Generally my min dealer profit = $500-$700, max of about $1500 on a car <$30K
Ten years from now, I doubt anyone will remember (or care) that SOA painted only 450 2002 WRXs Post-It Note Yellow. This is a standard production car, not an exotic. I can't think of many used cars that sell for a significant premium just because of their color.
More along the lines of 20+ years. For instance, certain cars of certain years were only available in certain configs and those, if original, bring a much higher price.
If you're talking about me, think again. I've been around Edmunds a lot longer than you have, and I enjoy talking about a lot of different cars. You don't have to own a car to talk about it. I just pop in here because even though I didn't buy one, the WRX still intrigues me (esp. the wagon - I'm wishing I had gotten a wagon because nothing will fit in my A4). I will definitely look at the STi if/when it gets here. If it has leather and bun warmers (i.e., heated seats), I might even get one
If you're not talking about me, please ignore this post.
Look, I'll admit to coming in here to get a rise out of people, but only after reading about the WRX in every topic it DIDN'T belong in (I don't care who brought it up, you guys always chime in). If that makes me a troll in your eyes, so be it.
As far as the whole "I've been here longer" thing, IMO, a true 'troll' has a short life at Edmunds. I think you'd agree to that.
that dealer holdback was based mainly on MSRP. I looked at the %ages that edmunds has here for every make and nearly all of them were on MSRP. Maybe I missed something but it looked like to me that the above figures were all on invoice. In that case it would probably be a lot less than MSRP. Please ignore this if I am mistaken...
1988, Boston to Seattle solo (told 'em I'd start work Monday AM, but the movers didn't show 'til Thursday afternmoon) in ~3 days in my GTI 16V. Friday: Boston to Madison, WI (avg 75 MPH). Saturday: Madison to Sheridan, WY (avg 85). Sunday: Sheridan to Seattle (avg 95).
No cruise control. Left Friday at 3:30 AM. Lots of coffee
I've enjoyed the debate here this morning. I must say that this board is a class act and the slamming is kept down, unlike some other places and the way they would have reacted to your post.
I appreciate your opinions. Because I work for Subaru and drive a WRX, I'll refrain from my opinions because I know that one might think my opinions are slanted (they would be - but for more reasons than I've listed).
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. One suggestion, if you want people to be softer in their response post, you may want to consider eliminating the "P" from your sign-off and keep it more tongue in cheek? It may appear to be less taunting.
mmcbride: No harm, no foul. I don't like to see things get inflammatory in here, and many of the Subaru owners here get that way too. I'm on my first and I was warned by others here and elsewhere that they (I guess I should say "we" now) are a bit of a cult.
As for time spent on the boards as some indicator of tenture or expertise, I disagree. I don't hold myself out as an expert, and I lurked here for almost a year before deciding to buy my Subaru in January 2000. I shopped Audi (A4 Avant 2.8 and 1.8T) and Volvo XC before deciding on Subaru. Reputation for reliability and long-term operating costs outweighed luxury and perceived prestige in my mind.
I love this board because of its non flame, non troll nature. (Go to SUV.com sometime and look at the boards on the large SUVS. Very childish although i can't feel too sorry for the owners of the behemoths). Anyway I appreciate that the post I put up about my WRX was responded to in a respectful mannner by mmcbride. It is hard not to get offended because Sube people are so independent and brand loyal. TWRX
Comments
-Frank P.
I always had to stop 3 times for gas. Small tank.
I've done Baltimore to Lansing MI a few times in one day, which is roughly 600 miles.
Bob
I know a guy on the i-club that lives in NY. He drove his RS to Tampa and traded it for a WRX.
http://mastrowrx.com/andy.html
That's his former dealer and they're a Prodrive distributor.
He's driven to Alaska 7 times. Once in his RS.
The WRX STi is more of a competitor to the Evo than the WRX. Sport Compact car has a comparo between the RSX-S and the WRX wagon!
Dennis
Stephen
-mike
So you're saying $1,125 over invoice is a better deal than $500 over? How is that?
You REALLY need to stop trying to correct people's figures...
-mike
Rex did you pay 5% over or get screwed at $250. jk
-mike
If they made a Barney-purple WRX and only made 50 of them, would you want one?
Laugh, but weren't purple Prowlers really popular?
-juice
Ed
I think the other colors (esp. silver and yellow - a friend was shopping for one last summer) are much more popular now.
defines much of my life. I have a magnet on my fridge that says "cleverly disguised as a respsonsible adult" I will have have devious pleasure out of buring the roads up "of course allways staying in perfect alingment of the laws!! " heehheheh This WRx is only in my life due to an unexpected inheritance. I am 43 and attending college. Studying for a masters degree and PLOP I find out im getting some money from a relative ive never met. I had no idea that it was going to be a nice chunk o' change that it is ,,,,,,,soooo I get to finish my school in a new car and more than ample funds during the process. enthusiam is contagious!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Dennis
And I've got a longer warranty than you :P
So you're saying that 5% over invoice is really 2% over invoice? That doesn't make any sense.
You take the invoice (as stated here or at KBB or wherever), and multiply by 5%. That's how you figure out how much over invoice 5% is.
Even if you were to take holdback out, you'd take it off the invoice price first - it wouldn't make your 5% over offer magically drop to 2%. So if the Invoice is $22,500, you'd subtract the 3% for holdback ($675) first, and then figure your 5% over off the new invoice amount of $21,825. 5% over that amount is still $1,091 (IOW, you saved yourself a whopping $34!).
Stephen
I think you shouldn't worry about holdback, etc. Just find out how much you are willing to pay for the car. If they say yes, it's yours. If they say no, either re-adjust your sights or pick another car.
If I owned a dealership, I would NEVER go into holdback for anyone. It should have nothing to do with the sales price of the car.
And also, either you did your calculations wrong or at least you are not explaining it correctly.
Take the number you got, add 5% and you get 22916.25 , which if you subtract the original "invoice" amount of 22,500 from , you are left with $416.25. As i originally posted. and 5% is viewed in the car industry as an acceptable margin. I paid 5% exactly (over dealer cost) for my Volvo V70 T5 wagon the second week they were released. Of course when I walked onto the lot, the salesman tried to tell me I would be paying sticker because it was new and "really hot, thats why we only have 3"
blah blah blah. I would urge you to read the posts on www.beatthecarsalesman.com for the real scoop on what most dealers will sell cars for. The holdback myth is a huge hoax perpetuated on the gullible consumer. Unfortunately there are a lot of suckers out there.
So if you buy for $1 under invoice, they lose money up front, but then make a couple of hundred bucks once the manufacturer pays them the holdback.
To simplify:
Dealer cost = invoice - holdback - any other incentives
-juice
But I see what you are trying to say. We are both saying the same thing, we're just using different terms.
There are tons of costs of doing business for a car dealership. Holdback just helps the dealership pay for it's staggering interest charges. Don't forget that they have huge insurance bills, salaries, benefits, mortgages, electric bills, etc.
Holdback is not 'pure profit'. It may or may not even show up on financial statements as revenue (it very well may show up as a reduction of interest expense). You'd probably want the dealership to not charge you for your car's portion of the electric bill since your car was only there for part of one day while the sun was up, too, wouldn't you? Maybe if you told them not to wash it, you could save $.30 on your portion of the water bill, too? Better yet, don't let a single person from the dealership touch it - you guide it off the truck and you prep it - and then you could cut another $50 off as well...
And the price you pay is not determined by you, it's determined by the market. Take BMW's (or Mercedes, or Audis, or Lexus) for example. If you went into a BMW dealership looking to buy a 325i and told the salesman you'd pay 5% over invoice but you wanted their holdback, you'd be laughed off the sales floor. Why? Because they can sell every single one they have for at or close to MSRP (which is $3-4k over invoice, BTW). Why should they sell to you for 2% over when the next guy in line will happily pay $500 under MSRP?
BTW - I'm a CPA, and I know a lot about the auto industry. I'm hardly a 'gullible' consumer.
-juice
Invoice-holdback-incentives+Profit to dealer = what I pay.
Profit to dealer = however much I feel the dealer should be making on the car as a whole, cheaper car profit is less, higher line car dealer makes more.
Generally my min dealer profit = $500-$700, max of about $1500 on a car <$30K
-mike
-juice
-mike
If you're not talking about me, please ignore this post.
-mike
PS mmcbride you do exhibit some characteristics of a troll.
As far as the whole "I've been here longer" thing, IMO, a true 'troll' has a short life at Edmunds. I think you'd agree to that.
-mike
-mike
No cruise control. Left Friday at 3:30 AM. Lots of coffee
Jim
I appreciate your opinions. Because I work for Subaru and drive a WRX, I'll refrain from my opinions because I know that one might think my opinions are slanted (they would be - but for more reasons than I've listed).
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. One suggestion, if you want people to be softer in their response post, you may want to consider eliminating the "P" from your sign-off and keep it more tongue in cheek? It may appear to be less taunting.
Have a good one!
Patti
As for time spent on the boards as some indicator of tenture or expertise, I disagree. I don't hold myself out as an expert, and I lurked here for almost a year before deciding to buy my Subaru in January 2000. I shopped Audi (A4 Avant 2.8 and 1.8T) and Volvo XC before deciding on Subaru. Reputation for reliability and long-term operating costs outweighed luxury and perceived prestige in my mind.
Thanks,
Ed
paisan - The holdback is based on MSRP, not invoice. :-p (oops, sorry Patti. Doesn't matter, paisan's never soft. :-D)
http://www.edmunds.com/advice/incentives/holdback/index.html
Dennis
-mike
TWRX