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I can't address the problem of individual dealerships, but anyone who doubts the commitment of the people who design & build the LS simply doesn't know what he/she is talking about. Not to rub it in to those who couldn't attend Mania 2, but as Joe said above, we know. We've seen it. The money Ford spends on development, testing, and problem solving is mind-boggling, but it's the dedication and passion of the people that makes the strongest impression.
And they really rolled out the red carpet for us. They didn't have to; they've already got our money, and surely there are some statistics somewhere that tell them how many of us will buy another Lincoln, so why bother? They could have led us on a quick, superficial tour of their facilities, but they didn't. These are very busy people, yet they took a lot of time in preparing a thoroughly informative and entertaining agenda for us. Our questions were answered and our opinions sought.
Thanks to Brian & Debbie's tremendous efforts and planning, and the courtesies extended to us by Ford/Lincoln (especially, but not exclusively Jonathan Crocker), Mania 2 was perfect. Well, it could have rained less, but whaddya gonna do?
I'm a Ford customer for life. I'd say Lincoln, but we were invited to examine some new Thunderbirds at the assembly plant, and I think I left some claw marks on one as I was being dragged away from it.:)
I had something "interesting" happen yesterday. I took the LS out to fill it up with gas. I drove back home, stopped just past my driveway, shifted into reverse in order to back in, but no go ! The car had stalled ! This is the first time that this has happened with this car, but I can't ever recall it happening with any of my automatic transmission equipped cars in the past. Anyone else had this happen ? Any idea what may have caused it ?
The most common cause of idle stall is gum and varnish build-up on the edge of the throttle plate. You need a "throttle-body cleaning". This residue from your fuel is clogging up the necessary and small amount of air flow that signals the injectors to put out idle fuel. Evidently it is so bad that the ISC motor can't overcome it fast enough or enough. Two solutions: take it to a garage or dealer or buy the swabs and cleaner, remove your intake hose and attack. This is a maintainance item and not a warranty item. But I would do this first. Next suspect is the ISC (Idle Speed Control) motor but if your idle keeps adjusting to load and temp it is probably ok. From there, next is the O2 sensor(s). There are 4, two in front and two behind the cats. But at this point you need the car scanned. There is no point in throwing parts at the car.
or. . . you can have it now. You can't have it right, now.
Sounds like the folks who showed up in Detroit learned what it's like to try to implement running changes for systems that are initially deficient. The rear window mechanism comes to mind, but so do paint quality, trunk liner quality, rear seat release cable retention quality, mystery beeps, half-shaft rumble, and a host of other items discussed over the past 18 months. Mirrors that don't retract and no underhood lighting were commented on months ago, but not lately. Perhaps expectations have been lowered. Is this a good thing?
Lincoln needs to communicate what they're doing, in detail, to address these issues. Most of us bought the car on faith, and if we're updated on the progress of the fixes, much will be gained. The company I work for does all kinds of unpleasant stuff, but they at least try to keep everyone up to speed on it. Jim R. & the other Lincoln folks who used to populate this board (beyond lurking), helped us all feel that we knew what's going on. That's gone, or have I missed something?
I guess my biggest disappointment (and that's saying someting) is the realization that the LS wasn't going to be marketed in Europe, where it's common to drive cars all day long at speeds in excess of 100 mph (at least in Germany). Now the LS is just another "entry level luxury" sedan that only has to compete in North America and a few other areas where the competition in this niche isn't so intense. If the LS were marketed in Europe and its share increased year-over-year, the conclusion would be that the "locals" thought it was competitive with BMW, Audi, MB & all the rest, and were voting with their hard-earned & heavily-taxed income. Or, the LS could run and hide. The bar has been lowered, perhaps to benefit Volvo & Jaguar, but not to benefit our car.
I want to thank Brian and Debbie (and Ryan) for making this an absolutely wonderful event. Everything we saw was very worthwhile and interesting. The engineers answered all questions and did not duck any issues. Everyone was very excited to see us and was very glad we were there. There was no possible way to pack more into the day than we did on Friday. Everyone at Lincoln treated us really well.
I was surprised at the large geographic draw that this event had. There were many people that traveled a very long distance to attend (some drove, some flew).
My only suggestion for improvement would be to make this a 2 day (or more if possible) event. Many people came from great distances for the event and I think having 2 days planned would have made the trip more worthwhile.
the window failure maybe "trivial" and not a safety issue but that's only true if you never had one. My real concern is not the problem but the way Lincoln has responded to the issue. For me up front information is the best way to go. If they knew this was a problem, and new the fix was an interim solution and planned a later fix, why did it take 50 dedicated LS owners showing up at the door of the plant to get that info. If someone had just told me the facts upfront I wouldn't be so ....opps cant say that... well you know what I mean.. Lest you all forget... I am not a disgrunted LS owner.... I love the car.. it's the windows I hate..
Kevin LS2000 V8 bought sept 1999... before it was the car of the year...
Contrary to what you think, the LS in Europe is a marketing issue and not a performance one. The benchmark for many performance criteria were European such as the BMW braking test (which the LS exceeded)It has also run high speeds all day long on the autobahn. I believe the side glass thickness was increased to reduce wind noise at autobahn speeds. They have the tooling to build any combination of RH/LH drive you want. I know the LS will cruise all day at 100 (I've done it)I know it handles and breaks fantastically as I had someone pull over an embankment in front of me while I was cr using at 142! Stop worrying about about where it may or may not sell and go out and enjoy it. Folks that drove in from Colorado,Arizona, North Carolina etc did exactly that.
cdnpinhead, Having attended LS Mania II, my first reaction was to disagree with your comments. But, in thinking about the comments of those who attended, I realize that we are reacting exactly the way others on this board did when Lincoln interaction was evident. Hearing from the source that things are being corrected or are being looked at goes a long way towards instilling confidence in the car and the company. Knowing that someone is listening helps attitudes a great deal.
I think Lincoln is still trying to get a handle on how to deal with the Internet forum and the LLSOC members. I would not doubt that there are other issues that we are not aware of (lawyers, bean counters...) that are influencing how Lincoln acts with Edmunds et al.
What I think we can do is show that acknowledging a problem and that a fix is ready (or coming) is much more beneficial than letting people rant about the problem to everyone they come in contact with. I've never had a car where so many people stop me and ask me about the car and my thoughts on whether they should buy one. The existing LS Owner is a powerful tool for Lincoln.
That being said, I do think Lincoln (and Ford) recognizes its quality issues and is committed to dealing with it. In my opinion, the reliance on third-party suppliers, and the trust in those suppliers to quality test their modules is a big part of the early problems with the vehicle.
Lincoln convinced many of us in attendance that they have the ability and dedication to make the LS as good as we all think it can be. We now need to work with them to get the communication level to be the best it can be. In the long run however, I think the dealer is supposed to be this knowledge source, not some engineer who takes time out of his day to answer a question (though we appreciate it !)
The dealer is supposed to be the communicator to/from the user of the product.
The LS is probably is best/worst example of how this link has broken down, at least in terms of the LS customer.
The Lincoln dealers, by and large, have absolutely no understanding of the LS enthusiast community. From what I saw in January (I was at Mania I) and what I've heard (so far) about Mania III (II was cancelled), the folks in Michigan are fully dialed in.
The dealers, at least the ones I've dealt with, haven't a clue.
cdnpinhead - If I'm not mistaken, the US market is far and away the largest market for the European brands (and all others). Given that, in what way is the LS not competitive? I've driven the German brands, and quite frankly, I prefer the LS. Performance and reliability is comparable, while the price is substantially lower. I guess I just don't understand your point.
cdnpinhead, your comments on the LM dealers brings up OLD MEMORIES. Recognizing the LS as "probably the best/worst example" is a repeat of how LM handled the Merkur. Loved my 1985 XR4Ti! A great car, at a bargain price when compared with the Europeans. Do too dealer apathy, the customers were generally far more knowledgeable than sales staff (who were always ready to put forward a lie to cover their ignorance.) We also had our string of numerous not-ready-for-prime-time first year problems. Really wanted to go LS, but based on the ongoing dialog and my earlier XR4 experience I took the high price/lower risk approach and just ordered the BMW.
"I know the LS will cruise all day at 100 (I've done it)I know it handles and breaks fantastically as I had someone pull over an embankment in front of me while I was cruising at 142!"
How did you get to 142mph? When I speed tested the car on the way to Phoenix the speed limiter cut the engine off at about 133 mph. 2000 LS-8 non-sport.
I guess I'm a victim of the adage (credit to Click & Clack, NPR) that Happiness = Reality - Expectations. If the reality is large enough or the expectations small enough, happiness results. About two years ago, when I heard the LS was a legitimate competitor to European sports sedans, I sat up and took notice. It didn't hurt that my Eagle Vision's reliability over the previous year had been a bitter disappointment, or that the normally "sky-is-falling" zealots at Consumers Reports called the car the best one they'd ever driven. I won't trouble anyone with their most recent comments on that subject.
So I, along with several on this board, bought the car. I (along with you, as I recall) actually bought it, as opposed to renting (leasing) it, as I think the majority do. The lessors are secure in the knowledge that if it goes "Tango Uniform", it can just be turned in when it's over. We, on the other hand, have to sell the thing.
Then came the various "issues" we've been discussing here. But that's not all. Our champions, Mr. Rogers & Mr. Cupka, left the LS program and this forum. Perhaps I'm looking through "not" rose-colored glasses, but my recollection is that their participation, in terms of soothing those of us with problems, slowed down toward the end. Either way, much of customer satisfaction is communication: Even though the product may not be "perfect" yet, help is on the way. Don't recall getting much of that type of communication, except in the always noteworthy case of the automatic transmission -- Mark can always be depended upon.
I (and you, in a past life) work for a large corporation in which passion and love of a product often falls victim to the beancounters. What I've seen on this forum, heard about the car, and experienced myself since January leads me to fear that the LS is going to have to wait until the Explorer and other FoMoCo issues are resolved. Fixing or changing this stuff costs money, sometimes in large quantities. I'd love to be wrong.
Then I went on two business trips to Europe. Both times I rented an Audi. Both times I scoured the autobahns for Ford products, while enjoying standard transmission vehicles that were far more driveable than my LS. I saw remarkably few. The point of my previous post was that the people in Europe are a much tougher (not larger, tougher) audience than the one in the U.S. The European drivers have to meet a much higher standard of performance, the cars are inspected more often (or at all, in the case of AZ), and in the day-to-day use of vehicles in the beloved "not" 130 kph zones (ie: unlimited), performance issues will be revealed. Do you really believe the people who buy the LS in the U.S. generally have a clue how they handle at 125 mph relative to Benzes, BMW's or Audi's? They buy them because they "look cute," are painted the right color, or have 0% financing. You've got to remember that we're a tiny fraction of those who buy this car, and the beancounters only care about numbers, not the quality of the numbers.
I've driven manual transmissions in everything from Lambretta motor scooters to Kenworth trucks, with stops along the way at a 240-Z and two Miata's, and the LS's fuel delivery system is the most prone to stalling of any I've driven. But, what do I know? I've only driven 1.17 million miles.
The LS has excellent handling around corners, and I love enjoying it the 10 - 15 days a year I get to exercise it. The rest of the time I drive back and forth to work. Interior quality, paint quality, fuel economy & day-to-day driveability are the issues that come into play then, and had I not been exposed to Audi, I might be much more satisfied now.
Echoing previous comments, if you suspect your windows are going to fail, then do not put them in the full up position as this puts the most stress on the plastic holder which causes the failure. I asked the specific question of whether Lincoln would continue to cover the repairs of the window mechanisms that failed after warranty expiration and their response was that they do not have a final decision on that yet. But the feeling I got was that they would and I base this on their response and the number of failures that are occurring.
Slowdriver, don't know what your speed limit is, could be drag, but I have been above 133 and I have the same vehicle as you. Could also be the fuel to air mixture just cutting off the limit for you to get better mixing. I ran my runs at night. I read somewhere that 10 degrees difference can cause roughly a 1hp decrease. If your doing it in the heat of Phoenix, then that can definitely have an impact. Consequently, I also read that each 1000 feet above sea level can cause an average of 3hp decrease. Don't know how true these are, but both combined can cause you to lose a lot of power.
Those of us who drive manuals do this thing that involves letting the clutch out while we apply more fuel. . . or so we hope.
I understand that 98% or more of the driving public could care less about what's involved in causing a manual transmission-equipped vehicle to function. This is a beancounter thing.
Here's where I'm going to go off the reservation. If one drives a diesel vehicle (well, a truck), when the foot feed (that would be the accelerator pedal to you car guys) is depressed, more fuel is introduced. Why this matters is that the fuel is modulated by RPM. If the RPM drops, the fuel is automatically increased. Life is simple.
My put is that the "extremely clean" exhaust feature we've all been blessed with in the LS tends to disallow sufficient fuel feed to allow a smooth clutch engagement and departure from whatever stop you've just endured.
The Audis in Europe felt just like real vehicles. The LS doesn't.
Please help me understand, with examples, why I'm wrong.
Of course, 98.5% of all LS owners have automatic transmissions. This isn't the case in Europe. Don't get me started on high-performance turbodiesel engines.
I actually have to agree that the LS is more stall prone than other manual cars I have driven. The LS definitely requires a lot more "attention", especially starting on a large hill. Maybe it has to do with the fact that the V6's don't make much torque on the lower end. For comparison, my '90 T-Bird SC which put out most of it;s 315 ft-lbs of torque on the lower end, was almost impossible to stall Sure miss that torque!!!
I spoke to several engineers on the top speed issue while at Wixom. They said there was no speed limiter and that it's a drag limit problem (It just runs out of grunt) You won't hit max speed in 5th as there's not enough power- you have to wind it out in 4th. I've hit 138 with 4 passengers and a trunk full of luggage. They are continuously playing with calibrations and axle ratios, so that may be a factor. Mine is a box stock LS8 built in May 99.
I think it's 3% drop in power for every 1000 ft in altitude. And Steve, I agree that the manual does bog off the line. I always thought it was gearing, but it could be "tip-in" transition off the idle mode. Fuel injection has a lot to do with clock/timing cycles as far as sensor input goes. The fuel injection may be a little late for emissions reasons (too lean?).
I found myself stalling occassionally my V6 manual at the outset. As many have said, the duratec takes a long time to loosen up. However, at 19,000 miles I find it much more difficult to stall. The engine runs more freely than at first as evidenced by significant increases in mpg.
Are you sure there's no speed limiter? I thought the mfr was required to limit the speed to what the tires are rated for, which for non-sport models is H (V for the sport pkg models).
Brian mentioned a MT editorial as having some info about engine losses, supposedly the numbers are: 3.6% per 1000 feet above sea level 1.5% per 10F increase in temperature
My non sport LS has 215x60x16 V rated Firehawks (which are worn out at 24K miles)I'm sure weather and fuel quality also play as factors. I've seen it sputter at other times at 130.
I understand that plans to market the LS in Europe are NOT dead. They are still planning to do this.
A couple of other tid bits from Wixom... - There is NO speed limiter on the V8, just a rev limiter.
- The speed is measured via the ABS system, so any changes to gearing ratios won't effect the speedometer.
- The new audiophile system available in the LSE and Sport models has two "Bass Speakers" mounted under the rear deck which were specifically designed for this purpose. This system is 20 lbs lighter than the old and (according to the engineer) sounds even better. I saw them and they are not very intrussive into the trunk space either.
- The LS, Continental, and Town Car (and stretched Town Car) are all built on the same line, one after another. This is the only plant in the world that makes a RWD unibody, a FWD unibody, and a RWD full-frame on the same line. The T-bird is made in the same building but not on the same line.
- The Wixom plant has 13 million sq ft of floor space on 750 acres.
I actually have to agree that the LS is more stall prone than other manual cars I have driven. The LS definitely requires a lot more "attention", especially starting on a large hill. Maybe it has to do with the fact that the V6's don't make much torque on the lower end. For comparison, my '90 T-Bird SC which put out most of it;s 315 ft-lbs of torque on the lower end, was almost impossible to stall Sure miss that torque!!!
While cars are required to be maintained in Europe with no such regulation in the US, I'm confident that a properly maintained LS will perform every bit as well as a European competitor. Bear in mind, maintaining the LS will cost a fraction of what it costs to maintain that European brand. For the extra $5k the Audi A6 2.7T costs, I'll take the better balanced LS8 through the mountain twisties. I know you haven't been happy with the paint job on your LS, but mine is fine (although, the Audi's is better). To date, my only gripe with Lincoln has been with the window regulator issue, and I haven't yet had a failure. Also, I understand many owners have had problems with their dealer as far a service is concerned. No such problems to report here (knock wood).
Interior quality . . . the Audi is unquestionably gorgous inside, and the LS OK. I added a wood trim kit to improve the asthetics of the center stack. The Audi still looks better, but not enough to justify the $5K greater price.
Two years into my (love) affair with the LS, and I'm still happy. I looked at the A6 2.7T back in Jan '00 before I took delivery on my LS, and frankly, I'm glad I went with the LS. Compares well in my book.
Very subjective. I love the interior of the LS, it is very functional and looks just fine. However, this is my opinion. I dislike my friends Bimmer 530i interior, too non-functional for me and hard to access controls. I take function over form in my book because for me, it is more important to easily access these controls while driving than have them look cute and make me work to control them, thereby taking my concentration off of driving.
I haven't seen the Audi interior, but I don't like it's exterior, again, subjective opinion.
Nosho, thanks for the corrections on the altitude and temparature degradings. One question though, are those % decreases in HP or overall engine output?
Not trying to be antagonistic here, but don't you prevent stalling with your right foot? I think the auto-box users forget it's not just about changing gears, it's what rpm, throttle position, and how fast you engage the clutch that affect performance. I have stalled my LS trying to be too smooth, but mainly it's been driver error. As for the window failure issue, I took delivery in the middle of march (fairly cool for open windows in St. Louis)and had a failure in early may (still slightly cool). I used global open 1-2 times a day every day from the end of May to the end of August and didn't have another problem. More use helps prevent the problem fits with my experience. As for bad dealer experiences, My God father the former Carter Carborator Plant manger told me years ago the solution is to eliminate dealers and allow the Manufacturers to sell direct. In this global economy it's not like we only have 3 manufacturers to choose from. There are enough manufacturers competing to ensure the free market system will work for auto consumers.
Just passed the 20k mileage milestone and I absolutely love this car as much as I did when it only had about 20 miles on it. What a car(!), best car I've ever owned (and 1st brand new car).
Anyway, has the matter come up regarding how secure the LS is given the recently discussed "stress" factor on the rear window assemblies? Could that mean that the window(s) is vulnerable to unscrupulous people?
With the 3.31 axle ratio, fourth gear allows more engine HP than fifth up to about 147 MPH.
For the 3.58 axle, the crossover of fourth & fifth gear HP curves occurs at about 135 MPH.
I conclude that if you have the 3.31, your top speed will be greater in fourth in fifth.
Stanny: Your statement: "a four-valve engine is weaker at low rpm than a two-valver"
I think that statement is a bit too broad. Consider that 4-valve valves are smaller (lighter), have less inertia, & therefore can be popped open & closed faster providing more airflow without increasing overlap. More air flow = more torque = more horsepower at any given RPM.
We will not see auto manufacturers selling directly in any of our life times. Car dealers wield too much political power at the state level. They have guaranteed their futures thanks to political bribery, oops, I mean campaign contributions. Ford tried to list used cars on the internet. Even though the cars were still delivered through local dealers the states of AZ & TX already (in not other states too) shut this possible breach of the dealer strangle hold on car sales. Ford announced several years ago that it was going to trim hundreds of dealers from its network. I don't think they made much progress. The Blue Oval Certified program was originally supposed to weed out weak dealers. Due to dealer might and threatened legal action the Blue Oval program has become so watered down its close to being a joke. If I sound a bit aggravated it's because right now my LS is sitting at a dealer for the 7th time with the same problem. Sign me out as hoping 7 is my lucky number.
I'm not trying to be argumentative here but I don't understand what you mean by:
"Here's where I'm going to go off the reservation. If one drives a diesel vehicle (well, a truck), when the foot feed (that would be the accelerator pedal to you car guys) is depressed, more fuel is introduced. Why this matters is that the fuel is modulated by RPM. If the RPM drops, the fuel is automatically increased. Life is simple."
That might be true in a constant speed-governed feedback system but as far as I know, automobile and truck diesels don't work this way...the fuel is modulated by the fuel pump under the control of the driver's foot and/or a speed control unit. The accelerator pedal is connected to the fuel pump (whether direct mechanical connection as in my 93 Dodge Cummins or "by wire" through the engine control computer in the newer systems). If the load increases, say going up a hill, to a point that tends to slow the RPM, without "pushing harder on the accelerator" the vehicle simply slows down to the point where the load reach equiblibrium with the amount of power the engine is currently making. The only way it is going to go faster or maintain it's speed is to increase the fuel flow by mashing the accelerator harder...there is no govenor that maintains speed at a fixed pedal position according to varying loads. There *is* a govenor but it is strictly an RPM limiter to prevent the run-away that can happen in an ungoverned engine when things go wrong.
Perhaps you are referring to what I would call speed (cruise) control which does work like you describe but that is a function of the control unit, not the engine type, and it works the same way on gasoline powered vehicle.
Different subject: To me, stalling is a matter of foot/brain coordination. When I first got my V6 manual I would kill the engine if I wasn't concentrating. A lot of that was because my "other vehicle" was a Dodge Cummins which had about 500 foot pounds of torque...I could just let the clutch out without giving it any more fuel and it would chug merrily along...nearabout impossible to stall it by poor driving practice. On the other hand, the V6 had little available torque in the beginning (getting better as milage increases as frequently pointed out here) and if I didn't modulate the gas just right it would stall or at least stumble. I suspect my learning curve was slowed down inasmuch as the Dodge drove so differently but I was able to adapt to the idiosyncrasies of the V6 before too long and now it is second nature.
One more thing...did anyone at Wixom get an explanation of how it was that the heat adversely affects the window mechanism...I sure would like to understand that one.
OTOH, my Miatias and the 240 (not to mention the 510) didn't require nearly the finesse to launch the vehicle that the LS does.
I'm sure it's all my fault.
Some vehicles don't make me feel at fault. They just work.
I feel better when I drive vehicles that don't stall at launch, or require me to spin the engine to 2K+ just to release the clutch.
It's a "feeling" thing. Sadly, this is far more important than logic and data in today's world.
I can work either side of the fence, but I prefer the data & examples side.
I tried to check your profile to see if you currently own a manual LS but, as usual, there's no information there. Yes, I understand that diesel control systems are often/usually set up to add fuel to maintain a speed/RPM, while gas engines usualy run open-loop during acceleration. I wrote a treatise on the LS open-loop fuel control system, as I perceived it in the driver's seat, about a year ago. I won't do it again, but I do have what some people think is a fairly good grasp of how internal combustion engines work. That's theory & puffery, but what really matters is what the car feels like when one drops the clutch. The cars I drove in Europe (not unlike my Miata, etc. in past years in the U.S.) just "felt better." As I'm sure we're all aware now, or will be soon, Lincoln considers the manual a huge mistake, not worthy of future development. . .or I could be wrong.
I don't suppose you've driven a M3 with a stick in the last several years have you? If you did you would have noticed the same tendency as the LS.
You can't compare older cars or European-spec manual models to the new cars. Pollution controls are what ends up causing most of the headaches with clutches and stalling out. Granted some cars have an easier time with this than others, but any recent manual I've driven had some issues due to EPA requirements, such as being unable to blip the throttle to double-clutch because the computer wouldn't let the engine RPMs down fast.
The LLSOC team consisting of your truly, Joe Milano, Mark Kovalsky, Brian Johnson, and Artie Greenberg beat out 19 other teams at Greenfield Village for the NASCAR Pit Crew Tire Change Challenge with a best time of 19:27 seconds.
Just goes to show that Lincoln LS drivers can change tires too, and quicker than anyone else!
For anyone who has never participated in this event, it consists of a team of 5 pit crew changing both passenger side tires of a NASCAR racer, including jacking the car up and running back to the other side when finished.
No, I've not availed myself of an M3, or an S4, for that matter. Thank goodness. Ignorance is bliss.
The point you're making is similar to something I alluded to months ago, when I pointed out that the Lincoln brand was backed into a CAFE corner. All their vehicles are big and get relatively poor gas mileage. Other brands (including BMW) sell a mix of much smaller cars, which can be traded in the CAFE formula. I believe the phrase I used was "heavy iron." This is what Lincoln sells, and while they tapdance around the luxury tax & the fuel consumption tax, the LS is the smallest vehicle in the fleet and gets to try to put CAFE where they need it to be.
I've asked it before, and I'll ask it again. Why did my (otherwise miserable) Eagle Vision get 2 mpg better both in town and shooting across Nevada at 85 - 100 mph? It had a bigger engine, weighed within a few hundred pounds of the LS, and didn't look like it had anything tremendous going on aerodynamically.
I agree that the way engines are designed today are pretty much a primary cause of the tendancy to stall..more anti-pollution devices and a design which wants a lot of RPM to make power. I believe my initial difficulty was due to the fact I am overly sensitive to slipping the clutch...something I learned in my youth that was to be avoided unless you like to change out clutches. In those days you had to work at stalling on launch because the engine design provided more power at lower RPMs. Today, the short stroke 4 valve etc etc engines along with their high gearing just don't have the smooth takeoffability (without practice and attention to what you are doing) that the older vehicles had without revving up the engine to compensate. With an automatic, this problem is masked because the engine revs to where it needs to and there is no problem with the slippage that occurs in the automatic transmission and torque converter. I suspect if we manual drivers revved the engine that much and manually slipped the mechanical clutch that much we would be a regular patron of Clutch City.
Slunar, I didn't mean to imply that selling cars direct is something that could actually happen. I agree with your comment and could take it farther to the rant & rave level, but I like to relax in this space not get my blood pressure up. Any first year economic student can see that the dealer middle man doesn't increase the total value to the end consumer. My closing comment would be isn't it scary that with all of it's flaws, our system of government is the best in the world?
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And they really rolled out the red carpet for us. They didn't have to; they've already got our money, and surely there are some statistics somewhere that tell them how many of us will buy another Lincoln, so why bother? They could have led us on a quick, superficial tour of their facilities, but they didn't. These are very busy people, yet they took a lot of time in preparing a thoroughly informative and entertaining agenda for us. Our questions were answered and our opinions sought.
Thanks to Brian & Debbie's tremendous efforts and planning, and the courtesies extended to us by Ford/Lincoln (especially, but not exclusively Jonathan Crocker), Mania 2 was perfect. Well, it could have rained less, but whaddya gonna do?
I'm a Ford customer for life. I'd say Lincoln, but we were invited to examine some new Thunderbirds at the assembly plant, and I think I left some claw marks on one as I was being dragged away from it.:)
The car had stalled ! This is the first time that this has happened with this car, but I can't ever recall it happening with any of my automatic transmission equipped cars in the past. Anyone else had this happen ? Any idea what may have caused it ?
Two solutions: take it to a garage or dealer or buy the swabs and cleaner, remove your intake hose
and attack. This is a maintainance item and not a warranty item. But I would do this first. Next suspect is the ISC (Idle Speed Control) motor but if your idle keeps adjusting to load and temp it is probably ok. From there, next is the O2 sensor(s). There are 4, two in front and two behind the cats. But at this point you need the car scanned. There is no point in throwing parts at the car.
Sounds like the folks who showed up in Detroit learned what it's like to try to implement running changes for systems that are initially deficient. The rear window mechanism comes to mind, but so do paint quality, trunk liner quality, rear seat release cable retention quality, mystery beeps, half-shaft rumble, and a host of other items discussed over the past 18 months. Mirrors that don't retract and no underhood lighting were commented on months ago, but not lately. Perhaps expectations have been lowered. Is this a good thing?
Lincoln needs to communicate what they're doing, in detail, to address these issues. Most of us bought the car on faith, and if we're updated on the progress of the fixes, much will be gained. The company I work for does all kinds of unpleasant stuff, but they at least try to keep everyone up to speed on it. Jim R. & the other Lincoln folks who used to populate this board (beyond lurking), helped us all feel that we knew what's going on. That's gone, or have I missed something?
I guess my biggest disappointment (and that's saying someting) is the realization that the LS wasn't going to be marketed in Europe, where it's common to drive cars all day long at speeds in excess of 100 mph (at least in Germany). Now the LS is just another "entry level luxury" sedan that only has to compete in North America and a few other areas where the competition in this niche isn't so intense. If the LS were marketed in Europe and its share increased year-over-year, the conclusion would be that the "locals" thought it was competitive with BMW, Audi, MB & all the rest, and were voting with their hard-earned & heavily-taxed income. Or, the LS could run and hide. The bar has been lowered, perhaps to benefit Volvo & Jaguar, but not to benefit our car.
I was surprised at the large geographic draw that this event had. There were many people that traveled a very long distance to attend (some drove, some flew).
My only suggestion for improvement would be to make this a 2 day (or more if possible) event. Many people came from great distances for the event and I think having 2 days planned would have made the trip more worthwhile.
but that's only true if you never had one.
My real concern is not the problem but the way Lincoln has responded to the issue.
For me up front information is the best way to go.
If they knew this was a problem, and new the fix was an interim solution and planned a later fix,
why did it take 50 dedicated LS owners showing up at the door of the plant to get that info.
If someone had just told me the facts upfront I wouldn't be so ....opps cant say that...
well you know what I mean..
Lest you all forget... I am not a disgrunted LS owner.... I love the car.. it's the windows I hate..
Kevin
LS2000 V8 bought sept 1999... before it was the car of the year...
I know the LS will cruise all day at 100 (I've done it)I know it handles and breaks fantastically as I had someone pull over an embankment in front of me while I was cr using at 142!
Stop worrying about about where it may or may not sell and go out and enjoy it. Folks that drove in from Colorado,Arizona, North Carolina etc did exactly that.
Saying the LS is competitive with European sport/luxury sedans sold in Europe is somewhat different than proving it with European sales figures.
Somehow I feel I'm on the slippery slope Giowa endured (or didn't, as it turned out).
Time will tell.
Having attended LS Mania II, my first reaction was to disagree with your comments. But, in thinking about the comments of those who attended, I realize that we are reacting exactly the way others on this board did when Lincoln interaction was evident. Hearing from the source that things are being corrected or are being looked at goes a long way towards instilling confidence in the car and the company. Knowing that someone is listening helps attitudes a great deal.
I think Lincoln is still trying to get a handle on how to deal with the Internet forum and the LLSOC members. I would not doubt that there are other issues that we are not aware of (lawyers, bean counters...) that are influencing how Lincoln acts with Edmunds et al.
What I think we can do is show that acknowledging a problem and that a fix is ready (or coming) is much more beneficial than letting people rant about the problem to everyone they come in contact with. I've never had a car where so many people stop me and ask me about the car and my thoughts on whether they should buy one. The existing LS Owner is a powerful tool for Lincoln.
That being said, I do think Lincoln (and Ford) recognizes its quality issues and is committed to dealing with it. In my opinion, the reliance on third-party suppliers, and the trust in those suppliers to quality test their modules is a big part of the early problems with the vehicle.
Lincoln convinced many of us in attendance that they have the ability and dedication to make the LS as good as we all think it can be. We now need to work with them to get the communication level to be the best it can be. In the long run however, I think the dealer is supposed to be this knowledge source, not some engineer who takes time out of his day to answer a question (though we appreciate it !)
The LS is probably is best/worst example of how this link has broken down, at least in terms of the LS customer.
The Lincoln dealers, by and large, have absolutely no understanding of the LS enthusiast community. From what I saw in January (I was at Mania I) and what I've heard (so far) about Mania III (II was cancelled), the folks in Michigan are fully dialed in.
The dealers, at least the ones I've dealt with, haven't a clue.
How did you get to 142mph? When I speed tested the car on the way to Phoenix the speed limiter cut the engine off at about 133 mph. 2000 LS-8 non-sport.
what's the secret??
I guess I'm a victim of the adage (credit to Click & Clack, NPR) that Happiness = Reality - Expectations. If the reality is large enough or the expectations small enough, happiness results. About two years ago, when I heard the LS was a legitimate competitor to European sports sedans, I sat up and took notice. It didn't hurt that my Eagle Vision's reliability over the previous year had been a bitter disappointment, or that the normally "sky-is-falling" zealots at Consumers Reports called the car the best one they'd ever driven. I won't trouble anyone with their most recent comments on that subject.
So I, along with several on this board, bought the car. I (along with you, as I recall) actually bought it, as opposed to renting (leasing) it, as I think the majority do. The lessors are secure in the knowledge that if it goes "Tango Uniform", it can just be turned in when it's over. We, on the other hand, have to sell the thing.
Then came the various "issues" we've been discussing here. But that's not all. Our champions, Mr. Rogers & Mr. Cupka, left the LS program and this forum. Perhaps I'm looking through "not" rose-colored glasses, but my recollection is that their participation, in terms of soothing those of us with problems, slowed down toward the end. Either way, much of customer satisfaction is communication: Even though the product may not be "perfect" yet, help is on the way. Don't recall getting much of that type of communication, except in the always noteworthy case of the automatic transmission -- Mark can always be depended upon.
I (and you, in a past life) work for a large corporation in which passion and love of a product often falls victim to the beancounters. What I've seen on this forum, heard about the car, and experienced myself since January leads me to fear that the LS is going to have to wait until the Explorer and other FoMoCo issues are resolved. Fixing or changing this stuff costs money, sometimes in large quantities. I'd love to be wrong.
Then I went on two business trips to Europe. Both times I rented an Audi. Both times I scoured the autobahns for Ford products, while enjoying standard transmission vehicles that were far more driveable than my LS. I saw remarkably few. The point of my previous post was that the people in Europe are a much tougher (not larger, tougher) audience than the one in the U.S. The European drivers have to meet a much higher standard of performance, the cars are inspected more often (or at all, in the case of AZ), and in the day-to-day use of vehicles in the beloved "not" 130 kph zones (ie: unlimited), performance issues will be revealed. Do you really believe the people who buy the LS in the U.S. generally have a clue how they handle at 125 mph relative to Benzes, BMW's or Audi's? They buy them because they "look cute," are painted the right color, or have 0% financing. You've got to remember that we're a tiny fraction of those who buy this car, and the beancounters only care about numbers, not the quality of the numbers.
I've driven manual transmissions in everything from Lambretta motor scooters to Kenworth trucks, with stops along the way at a 240-Z and two Miata's, and the LS's fuel delivery system is the most prone to stalling of any I've driven. But, what do I know? I've only driven 1.17 million miles.
The LS has excellent handling around corners, and I love enjoying it the 10 - 15 days a year I get to exercise it. The rest of the time I drive back and forth to work. Interior quality, paint quality, fuel economy & day-to-day driveability are the issues that come into play then, and had I not been exposed to Audi, I might be much more satisfied now.
Thank goodness I didn't rent a BMW.
Slowdriver, don't know what your speed limit is, could be drag, but I have been above 133 and I have the same vehicle as you. Could also be the fuel to air mixture just cutting off the limit for you to get better mixing. I ran my runs at night. I read somewhere that 10 degrees difference can cause roughly a 1hp decrease. If your doing it in the heat of Phoenix, then that can definitely have an impact. Consequently, I also read that each 1000 feet above sea level can cause an average of 3hp decrease. Don't know how true these are, but both combined can cause you to lose a lot of power.
I understand that 98% or more of the driving public could care less about what's involved in causing a manual transmission-equipped vehicle to function. This is a beancounter thing.
Here's where I'm going to go off the reservation. If one drives a diesel vehicle (well, a truck), when the foot feed (that would be the accelerator pedal to you car guys) is depressed, more fuel is introduced. Why this matters is that the fuel is modulated by RPM. If the RPM drops, the fuel is automatically increased. Life is simple.
My put is that the "extremely clean" exhaust feature we've all been blessed with in the LS tends to disallow sufficient fuel feed to allow a smooth clutch engagement and departure from whatever stop you've just endured.
The Audis in Europe felt just like real vehicles. The LS doesn't.
Please help me understand, with examples, why I'm wrong.
Of course, 98.5% of all LS owners have automatic transmissions. This isn't the case in Europe. Don't get me started on high-performance turbodiesel engines.
Al
You won't hit max speed in 5th as there's not enough power- you have to wind it out in 4th.
I've hit 138 with 4 passengers and a trunk full of luggage.
They are continuously playing with calibrations and axle ratios, so that may be a factor.
Mine is a box stock LS8 built in May 99.
And Steve, I agree that the manual does bog off the line. I always thought it was gearing, but it could be "tip-in" transition off the idle mode. Fuel injection has a lot to do with clock/timing cycles as far as sensor input goes. The fuel injection may be a little late for emissions reasons (too lean?).
V = 149
about engine losses, supposedly the numbers are:
3.6% per 1000 feet above sea level
1.5% per 10F increase in temperature
A couple of other tid bits from Wixom...
- There is NO speed limiter on the V8, just a rev limiter.
- The speed is measured via the ABS system, so any changes to gearing ratios won't effect the speedometer.
- The new audiophile system available in the LSE and Sport models has two "Bass Speakers" mounted under the rear deck which were specifically designed for this purpose. This system is 20 lbs lighter than the old and (according to the engineer) sounds even better. I saw them and they are not very intrussive into the trunk space either.
- The LS, Continental, and Town Car (and stretched Town Car) are all built on the same line, one after another. This is the only plant in the world that makes a RWD unibody, a FWD unibody, and a RWD full-frame on the same line. The T-bird is made in the same building but not on the same line.
- The Wixom plant has 13 million sq ft of floor space on 750 acres.
More later,
Joe
Al
Interior quality . . . the Audi is unquestionably gorgous inside, and the LS OK. I added a wood trim kit to improve the asthetics of the center stack. The Audi still looks better, but not enough to justify the $5K greater price.
Two years into my (love) affair with the LS, and I'm still happy. I looked at the A6 2.7T back in Jan '00 before I took delivery on my LS, and frankly, I'm glad I went with the LS. Compares well in my book.
I haven't seen the Audi interior, but I don't like it's exterior, again, subjective opinion.
Nosho, thanks for the corrections on the altitude and temparature degradings. One question though, are those % decreases in HP or overall engine output?
As for the window failure issue, I took delivery in the middle of march (fairly cool for open windows in St. Louis)and had a failure in early may (still slightly cool). I used global open 1-2 times a day every day from the end of May to the end of August and didn't have another problem. More use helps prevent the problem fits with my experience.
As for bad dealer experiences, My God father the former Carter Carborator Plant manger told me years ago the solution is to eliminate dealers and allow the Manufacturers to sell direct. In this global economy it's not like we only have 3 manufacturers to choose from. There are enough manufacturers competing to ensure the free market system will work for auto consumers.
Anyway, has the matter come up regarding how secure the LS is given the recently discussed "stress" factor on the rear window assemblies? Could that mean that the window(s) is vulnerable to unscrupulous people?
With the 3.31 axle ratio, fourth gear allows more engine HP than fifth up to about 147 MPH.
For the 3.58 axle, the crossover of fourth & fifth gear HP curves occurs at about 135 MPH.
I conclude that if you have the 3.31, your top speed will be greater in fourth in fifth.
Stanny: Your statement:
"a four-valve engine is weaker at low rpm than a two-valver"
I think that statement is a bit too broad. Consider that 4-valve valves are smaller (lighter), have less inertia, & therefore can be popped open & closed faster providing more airflow without increasing overlap. More air flow = more torque = more horsepower at any given RPM.
Did you folks get to meet JR's replacement?
"Here's where I'm going to go off the reservation. If one drives a diesel vehicle (well, a truck), when the foot feed (that would be the accelerator pedal to you car guys) is depressed, more fuel is introduced. Why this matters is that the fuel is modulated by RPM. If the RPM drops, the fuel is automatically increased. Life is simple."
That might be true in a constant speed-governed feedback system but as far as I know, automobile and truck diesels don't work this way...the fuel is modulated by the fuel pump under the control of the driver's foot and/or a speed control unit. The accelerator pedal is connected to the fuel pump (whether direct mechanical connection as in my 93 Dodge Cummins or "by wire" through the engine control computer in the newer systems). If the load increases, say going up a hill, to a point that tends to slow the RPM, without "pushing harder on the accelerator" the vehicle simply slows down to the point where the load reach equiblibrium with the amount of power the engine is currently making. The only way it is going to go faster or maintain it's speed is to increase the fuel flow by mashing the accelerator harder...there is no govenor that maintains speed at a fixed pedal position according to varying loads. There *is* a govenor but it is strictly an RPM limiter to prevent the run-away that can happen in an ungoverned engine when things go wrong.
Perhaps you are referring to what I would call speed (cruise) control which does work like you describe but that is a function of the control unit, not the engine type, and it works the same way on gasoline powered vehicle.
Different subject: To me, stalling is a matter of foot/brain coordination. When I first got my V6 manual I would kill the engine if I wasn't concentrating. A lot of that was because my "other vehicle" was a Dodge Cummins which had about 500 foot pounds of torque...I could just let the clutch out without giving it any more fuel and it would chug merrily along...nearabout impossible to stall it by poor driving practice. On the other hand, the V6 had little available torque in the beginning (getting better as milage increases as frequently pointed out here) and if I didn't modulate the gas just right it would stall or at least stumble. I suspect my learning curve was slowed down inasmuch as the Dodge drove so differently but I was able to adapt to the idiosyncrasies of the V6 before too long and now it is second nature.
One more thing...did anyone at Wixom get an explanation of how it was that the heat adversely affects the window mechanism...I sure would like to understand that one.
I stand corrected.
OTOH, my Miatias and the 240 (not to mention the 510) didn't require nearly the finesse to launch the vehicle that the LS does.
I'm sure it's all my fault.
Some vehicles don't make me feel at fault. They just work.
I feel better when I drive vehicles that don't stall at launch, or require me to spin the engine to 2K+ just to release the clutch.
It's a "feeling" thing. Sadly, this is far more important than logic and data in today's world.
I can work either side of the fence, but I prefer the data & examples side.
I tried to check your profile to see if you currently own a manual LS but, as usual, there's no information there. Yes, I understand that diesel control systems are often/usually set up to add fuel to maintain a speed/RPM, while gas engines usualy run open-loop during acceleration. I wrote a treatise on the LS open-loop fuel control system, as I perceived it in the driver's seat, about a year ago. I won't do it again, but I do have what some people think is a fairly good grasp of how internal combustion engines work. That's theory & puffery, but what really matters is what the car feels like when one drops the clutch. The cars I drove in Europe (not unlike my Miata, etc. in past years in the U.S.) just "felt better." As I'm sure we're all aware now, or will be soon, Lincoln considers the manual a huge mistake, not worthy of future development. . .or I could be wrong.
Let's hide and watch.
You can't compare older cars or European-spec manual models to the new cars. Pollution controls are what ends up causing most of the headaches with clutches and stalling out. Granted some cars have an easier time with this than others, but any recent manual I've driven had some issues due to EPA requirements, such as being unable to blip the throttle to double-clutch because the computer wouldn't let the engine RPMs down fast.
The LLSOC team consisting of your truly, Joe Milano, Mark Kovalsky, Brian Johnson, and Artie Greenberg beat out 19 other teams at Greenfield Village for the NASCAR Pit Crew Tire Change Challenge with a best time of 19:27 seconds.
Just goes to show that Lincoln LS drivers can change tires too, and quicker than anyone else!
For anyone who has never participated in this event, it consists of a team of 5 pit crew changing both passenger side tires of a NASCAR racer, including jacking the car up and running back to the other side when finished.
Brian
The point you're making is similar to something I alluded to months ago, when I pointed out that the Lincoln brand was backed into a CAFE corner. All their vehicles are big and get relatively poor gas mileage. Other brands (including BMW) sell a mix of much smaller cars, which can be traded in the CAFE formula. I believe the phrase I used was "heavy iron." This is what Lincoln sells, and while they tapdance around the luxury tax & the fuel consumption tax, the LS is the smallest vehicle in the fleet and gets to try to put CAFE where they need it to be.
I've asked it before, and I'll ask it again. Why did my (otherwise miserable) Eagle Vision get 2 mpg better both in town and shooting across Nevada at 85 - 100 mph? It had a bigger engine, weighed within a few hundred pounds of the LS, and didn't look like it had anything tremendous going on aerodynamically.
What am I missing?
band.
I also looked up the formula in the 5th edition
of the Bosch Automotive Handbook (page 415).
Measure air pressure (P) in kilo-pascals and
temperature (T) in degrees kelvin.
The correction factor (CF) is then:
CF = (99/P)^1.2 x (T/298)^0.6
Then engine output is rated output divided by CF.