I stopped by the local mega-dealer this evening and saw the first 4 2002 LSs that I've seen on a dealer lot. They had regular window stickers without any "do not sell" labels, so I take this to mean that the cooling problems that halted production on the T-Bird and LS have been permanently resolved.
There were two V8s and two V6s, all automatics. The sixes were non-Sport models; the only visual difference from prior years is the new non-Sport 7-spoke wheels. The ones on these cars were not the optional polished versions--I haven't decided whether I like them or not.
Both V8 cars had the Premium package; one was black and one was ivory. They're visually identical to last year's model. The documentation I've seen has always listed the Premium interior as two-tone light/medium parchment and light graphite/charcoal, but the graphite/charcoal interior is nearly all black. The only light graphite portions are the headliner and the A/B/C pillars--not sure why they bothered.
The non-Sports had Continental Contisport tires, and the Premium cars had Bridgestone Turanzas per the '01 running change; same sizes as last year.
One thing that surprised me was that one of the V8s had a build date of 06/29/01 on the window sticker--I didn't think production started until mid-July. The other three were mid- & late-July builds.
None of this may be news to anyone except me. Just thought I'd post this in case anyone is waiting for his or her '02 to come in.
gschwartz, Gary, I'm actually pleased to hear a former Ford quality person react so strongly to the comments I posted. On the other hand you may be overacting a little. This is an electronic chat room, not a NY Times investigative expose. After 22 Ford products in the last 30 years I feel that I am qualified, from a consumer's position, to speak on Ford Quality. To me there are three primary aspects of Quality. I apologize for not explaining clearly in my previous post what I was alluding to, so here goes.
1. Manufacturing Quality: Is the vehicle properly built as designed without manufacturing defects? What are the processes to fix manufacturing defects when they are found. Do you stop the line? Do you keep the line running and stack the cars on the repair lot?, Do you ship the vehicles and have the dealer repair them before delivery? Do you wait for the customer to find the problem and complain? If you were involved in this aspect of Ford Quality, I feel you and your fellow workers did a very good job. Of the 16 Taurus's I had, I'd rate all of them very good to excellent in build quality, all 16 had very few identifiable manufacturing defects. In fact my 2000 LS is the worst Ford vehicle that I have had in the last 15 years in terms of manufacturing defects probably having more manufacturing defects than all 16 Taurus's put together. Maybe Ford should coax you out of retirement.
2. Design / Engineering Quality: Does everything work properly as intended. Does it meet or exceed industry standards for the vehicle segment? Is the vehicle design innovative and desirable? In this area I'd rate Ford as average, occasionally showing flashes of brilliance. Examples I can think of are the wrist pin problems in early Taurus Vulcan engines. LS V8 cam chain whine, sure the engine works, but it shouldn't make the noise, PCM software, the original code worked, but it took a year and a half to get it right. Seatbelt retractors that don't always retract the belt, ignition buzz in the cassette deck. The rear axle drone, $35K+ cars just shouldn't make noises like that. Speed sensitive radio volume that doesn't work anymore. These could be engineering lapses or management decisions to put the cars into production before they are fully debugged.
3. Lasting Quality, that is Durability, Will, on average, all parts of the car function without failure for an acceptable length of time? Will the car still feel solid after 50K or 100K miles. In this area I'd rate Ford as acceptable, but below most competitors and in need of improvement. I know that this gets to be a nightmare among cost, weight and durability and this is the area that my friend's comments were referring to, mainly in squeezing suppliers on price. Here are some examples that come to mind. Taurus transaxle failures, 3.8L head gasket failures, 3.0L cooling bypass hose failures, Taurus recall for subframe corrosion, Taurus motor mounts that break, 4.6L intake manifolds that crack. LS mirrors vibrating, LS trunk gasket tearing, LS rear windows that crash. How many miles before the interior starts looking ratty. How many miles can you get on the car before everything starts to fall apart? My '84 LTD-II was ready for the scrap pile at 82K. Getting a new Taurus every year gave me great old verses new comparisons after 30K miles. Quite frankly after 30K miles you could already feel the old Taurus's getting a bit sloppy in their road manners and driveline, making them feel a bit tired at that still young age. The 3rd gen. Taurus seemed to hold its stiffness and suspension response better than the previous generations but it still had similar drivelines. I'm glad to read about Ford's 150K mile durability test and my LS at 20K feels as good today as when it was new (actually better thanks to the new PCM software) but vibrating mirrors and crashing windows make me nervous that it won't hold up. Was the whole T-Bird & LS production shut down fiasco (fan pump) another result of miss guided cost cutting?
Again I didn't mean to imply that there was any conscious effort on Ford's part to let more manufacturing defects into cars and I apologize for not being more clear in my prior post. However, after 22 Fords I belive that overall product quality (engineering perfection and durability) have over the years been sacrificed in the name of cost cutting. I also believe that other car manufacturers have been guilty of similar lapses in balancing cost verses overall product quality.
For those not initiated, there is a small hamburger chain that started in Orange County (near LM HQ) and is rapidly growing. It's called "IN and OUT Burger" and they feature fresh cut fries, real ice cream shakes, single and double hamburgers. It's a real short menu - not like McDonalds, Wendy's or Jack in the Crack. The guys wear complete white uniforms and you'd think they were on a team. Usually immaculate interiors. But they have a "secret" menu. Besides the "Double-Double" which is on the menu as their biggest burger, they have the "3x3" Triple meat and triple cheese, the "4x4", the "5x5", and on to something that gets hard to hold with both hands like a "20x20". It really depends on your budget and appetite, although you'll get more for your money than any McDonalds, where the burgers cost more and taste like cardboard in comparison. I think my 4x4 was $3.50. Carl's JR. wants $3.95 for their "$6.00 Burger" and it's just one fat patty. The 4x4 must be over a pound easy. Well, Mike, it wasn't a problem. I was really hungry and hadn't eaten all day. I even had a fry and you know how big the fries are. If fact, we ordered 4 fries and it looked like a sea of fries. Unlike McD, $20.00 will feed family of 4. Sort of like the Taco Bell of burger joints. Before InnOut moved into San Diego County, people used to drive up to Orange County to get their fix (Open 24 hrs). I don't know if it's worth a 100 mile pilgrimage, but eating a 4x4 is an experience. You will not be hungry the next day. I don't recommend a 4x4 late at night. They also have an "animal" option, which is a 4x4 without the buns, wrapped in lettuce for low carb diets. Great for diabetics. Lots of body builder types like In and Out. Years ago, a great status symbol here was to go to Orange County and get an "IN and OUT BURGER" bumper sticker. Then you cut out the "B" and "R" and put it on your car reading "IN and OUT URGE". When in Southern California, this is an attraction not to be missed.
Hi, John. How're things going? I think I can shed some light on the "mystery" build date. I'm assuming you're referring to the date in the lower right hand corner which is preceded by a bunch of numbers. This is just below the Monroney law statement. If so, the date shown is apparently not the actual build date. My sticker has a date of 8/26/99, but the build date was 9/8/99. So, taking the 6/29/01 date you saw and adding the approximate 2 week gap puts the build date on the car you saw right about in the ball park. Talk about early builds! This must have been one of the first '02's off the line.
I'm guessing that the date on the sticker is the date the order was pulled or something to that effect. Does anybody know exactly what this date represents?
Hey, Artie, Yeah, the date I'm talking about is the one you described on the window sticker. How did you find out what your actual build date was? The date on my window sticker is 08/04/00, and my car arrived at the dealership on August 30, if I remember correctly. I thought that the sticker date WAS the build date. The only other date I can find is the one on the inside of the driver's door opening, and that just says 08/00.
I'm almost tempted to take out the back seat to see if there's any factory paperwork buried in there somewhere. That wouldn't be considered obsessive, would it?
Hope you have a great time at Wixom--I sure wish I was going. It sounds like it's going to be a memorable weekend!
Well, I no longer have to worry about filling the front license plate holes. On the way home from the Concours/mall (oh WHY did I let her talk me into taking her th the Brea Mall????) an 18" wide piece of truck tire tread (at least that's what it looked like in the diminishing light) jumped up and broke the lower left of the bumper, taking with it the inner fender piece and the portion of that little "valance" under the bumper (that black piece) from the foglight to the wheel well. How a truck tread got into the left lane is beyond me!
The Concours was fantastic! The cars were beautiful. Jaguar is still my favorite and I came close, OK, not really, to talking my wife into buying an XKE. They had some very nice examples. there was also an X-Type. Kinda overpriced, IMHO. My wife couldn't understand why the 1914 RR Silver Ghost was green and not silver Ray, yould've loved all the Packards! There must have been a dozen! My wife loved the hood ornament with the glass/crystal wings. The company just made the cars just that much better! We have one heck of a club!
I have no quarrel with the three points of your recent post. There probably have been some 'gambles' on quality/cost trade-offs.
I still strongly object to the statement: "Ford did a study to determine how much they could let quality slide and not have customers notice the drop."
Most people in Ford, and certainly all of senior management, know that Ford spends WAAAY too much on warranty, recalls, and associated lost owner loyalty.
My beef with Ford culture is their quality strategy. They dedicate a disproportionate amount of resources to 'early detection' of new problems (special causes) at the expense of the continuity of effort necessary to eliminate the chronic problems (common causes). Some key lessons of Dr. Deming have been forgotten. One is that 85% (he later revised it to 92%) of all problems are common cause, the result of the system operating as designed. These don't go away until the system is changed.
The system won't get changed as long as the strategy is one that focuses on early detection of the special cause problems that constitute less than 10% of all the action.
I'm convinced that this is not limited to Ford. The addiction to periodic (daily, weekly, monthly) report cards that produce numbers that are misinterpreted, and used to misdirect resources, is the product of some of the best universities in the country.
This is an insidious addiction. (redundant?) An excellent read on this issue is "Understanding Variation-The Key To Managing Chaos" by Donald J. Wheeler. Published by SPC Press on Knoxville Tenn. It's only 136 pages long, so even some busy managers can knock it off in a day or two. It's a real eye-opener, highly recommended for anyone managing a business that uses numbers to measure performance.
Damn. My pulse rate and BP haven't been this high since before retirement. I gotta go take a walk.
Im a pretty avid do-it-yourselfer, but one thing ive gotten away from is engine cleaning, particularly on an under-warranty car. Too many electrical things that can get hit, so I let the dealer do it once every 18 months. They usually charge one hour of labor or less, and if anything goes wrong, check engine lights, etc, its on them. Worth the peace of mind.
John, the service tickets that my dealer uses have an entry for production date right at the top of the page with all the other ID info., i.e., VIN, color, delivery date, delivery mileage, salesperson's name, etc. If your dealer doesn't use this type of invoice, next time you're there ask them. I believe they can get it right off OASIS for you.
One can only hope that these kinds of discussions are taking place where the LS is designed and built. Then, that once the discussions are held, that the obvious conclusions are heeded. I believe this falls into the "hide and watch" category.
I'm just wrapping up a (successful) 2-year program to eliminate a group of common-cause "issues" with a part family of complex aerospace castings. If my company is any example, the Six-Sigma, TQM, Continuous Improvement, or whatever one chooses to call it, program is falling victim to "cost pressures." The 90-day mentality is back in spades, and the one-year and 5-year programs are suffering as a result.
The core concept that improving quality saves far more money than it costs still isn't believed in a lot of mahogany rows.
I have only a handful of books permanently on my desk. One is my 1993 edition of Understanding Variation. Great choice.
Accidently took the tachometer deep into the redline (close to 7000), but there was no "cut-out" that I could detect. Is this a "tattle-tale" tach too?
"The core concept that improving quality saves far more money than it costs still isn't believed in a lot of mahogany rows."
I think they believe it, but the 'system' is such that they will be in another job when the fruits of long-term actions are harvested ... and they'll get to the other job thru short-term apparent successes.
I removed the black plastic pieces from the engine, the piece (radiator cover) that you referred to and the one below the hood latch. I also took off the big black plastic piece on the bottom, front.
I used my brother's 5.0 HP Honda Power washer after spraying on a light coat of engine cleaner. Actually, both radiators (a/c and engine) were loaded with bugs. I too, would have liked to have sprayed from the back. I think I might have bent a couple fins, but I was careful for the most part.
Its great that you really don't have to cover up a distributor cap/rotor or air cleaner! Its as simple as opening the hood and hosing out the engine compartment.
ronniepooh... I doubt you could void your warranty by washing your engine... especially since is recommended in the manual.
I've been working for the same Fortune 500 company in various positions since 1971. Being in something less than a managerial job,(tech support in manufacturing) my viewpoint is from the bottom up. I agree wholeheartedly with gschwartz's view that nobody gets too involved in long term issues (whether good or bad) because they never stay around long enough to make a difference. Those at my level, however, are stuck trying to make things function properly, sometimes without much backing. And, if we do make a go of it, our reward is to be permanently stationed there.
DIdnt mean to imply that washing the engine in and of itself could void the warranty, but if a week down the line, some electrical sensor is shorted out, how easy would it be to collect on that warranty claim? Maybe not too hard, but thats just an area im extra cautious on. (water in my engine compartment). to each his own
I have 20K on the Firehawks. Picked up a nail, slow leak, tire was low (and I knew it was low) but kept driving it. Rolled up on the sloped curb to reach the mailbox and the bead broke loose. That's bad enough, but when I pulled out the spare it had no air either!
Go Check Your Spares TODAY!!
Had to call AAA to inflate the spare but the guy obviously didn't know what he was doing. I think he just wanted AAA to pay for a tow instead of just a service call. My wife was there, not me. I just pulled the tire off, straightened it out and aired it right up.
Now I'm looking at the flat with the nail and there isn't enough tread left to patch it, so I'm getting new tires. Looking at tirerack.com, Michelin now has the Pilot Sport A/S (all-season) and Pilot XGT Z4 available in 235/50R17. The new T-bird had MXM4s in that same size in the pictures I saw, but I get conflicting info, even from Michelin's own web site. I know the Firestones are dirt cheap but I'm a huge Michelin fan and I have never cared for Firestones, even though these haven't been too bad.
Could anyone with Michelins let me know which ones and how you like them? I'm trying to decide in the next few days. Thanks.
I've had the Michelin Pilot XGTV4s on the project car along with the Michelin Pilot Sports and I thought that they were excellent tires. Quiet, smooth and great on-center and transitional feel compared to the Stones.
akirby, I bought Brian's slightly used and abused Michelin Pilot XGT-V4 tires from the project car. I echo Brian's comments and I highly recommend those tires. They are very, very quiet for high performance tires, They have excellent on center feel, better than the Firestones, They have excellent straight line traction and very good cornering traction. If you look on the user comments on tirerack.com the XGT-V4's also have far above average owner ratings. My only concerns on them are cost and tread life.
OK Gary, lets call a truce, I was a out of line to throw out my original comment without an explaination. Ford (at least in the past) can be a difficult customer to deal with as I know from one of my past lives working for a machine tool manufacturer that sold to the big 3. I also have a couple of friends who have given me earfulls of their frustrations in doing or attempting to do business with Ford. My orginal comments that came from one of those friends really evolved from a "Just sell it to us cheaper and we'll worry about the concequences" attitude that my friend faced.
Stanny, Sounds like IN & OUT is a great place to get a month's worth of fat & cholesterol in a single bargain priced visit. Also, sounds like the LS manual does not implement the ~3000 RPM neutral rev, limit that the auto has. Wonder if newer manuals with traction control have added that rev limit.
I'll be out at Dearborn starting Wed. through Sun. with limited access to email. I'll try to respond if possible, but it won't be with my normal speediness. I'll catch up with all my emails next week along with updating LLSOC with all the pictures of Mania 2!
We have 50 people attending the event and I'm sure everyone will be posting their comments of the event.
gkarg, thanks. Looks like I could be a little more ambitious getting plastic out of the way. Never even thought of looking underneath. I've never had problems hosing out engine compartments in the past, although I share ronniepooh's caution. I don't mind getting something wet, as long as I know exactly what it is!:) A few too many electrical mysteries under the hood of the LS. Fortunately, the rubber seals on the hood seem to do an excellent job of keeping dirt out. I take the towel that gets damp wiping out the door sills, etc. after washing, and wipe off everything under the hood. Some Meguiar's plastic protectant on the black stuff every month or so, and it still looks pretty much like new.
WOW! I would DEFINITELY get a bumper from bumpers.com if I had to pay for this myself! $373 for the bumper, $28 for that little valance and $36 for the inner fender splash shield. Anyway $800 plus he forgot to include the clearance and fog lights. I wish I had a digital camera to show you guys the damage. It is UGLY! Well, as soon as the parts come in, I'll be 3 days in a rental. I hope this body shop gets parts faster than my dealer!
I put my 98 Aurora on the dyno to test the K&N and the K&N with the air box mods. I really did get great results from the K&N panel filter - +3.7% for peak HP. All the numbers are at the wheels.
The K&N gave me +7 peak HP and +4 torque.
Air box mod with the K&N gave me maybe +8 peak HP and +7 torque.
But the air box mod really fattened up the HP and torque curves nicely that is not reflected in the peak numbers. Needless to say, I'm pretty happy with the results - and I swear I do feel something extra when punching it at 30, 40 or 50.
I hope you guys find this interesting. Check out my posting on the Aurora board for more details.
I may have opportunity to purchase a 2000 LS wV8 from a family member that is looking to downsize. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. The car has approx. 17,000 miles and appears to be in good shape. My research has me slightly concerned about the SelectTrac transmission. Thanks in advance for anyone's help.
Why are you concerned about the tranny? The only problem was the 2000 software which was corrected in 2001 and available as a TSB for the 2000 models. You can have it reprogrammed under the TSB if necessary. There were a few other problems to look for, notably the crashing window syndrome. But the tranny shouldn't be a problem at all. Just be sure to drive the car thoroughly so you know what you're getting.
For the amount of travel I do, I can't believe I neglected this site for so long. I had planned on staying at the Dearborn Inn as I've stayed there before and the weekend rate is good. A friend suggested priceline.com so I gave it a go. I'm in the Hyatt Regency just down the road for $50 a night (reg $280)I rented a full size car from Hertz for $20/day. The beginning of the next week I'm in Aurburn Hills where the hotel I normally stay at for $156/night was booked for $40. If you haven't firmed up your plans yet, give it a try.
ronniepooh - after the check engine incident... I'm going to be more careful - but continue to do it - i don't mind showing it off when its clean! (Of course... we can't do that when its dark... now can we? - I still find it hard to believe there isn't a light in the engine compartment!)
Just to clarify from my last post - The owner's manual DOES mention covering the air cleaner box and the power distribution box (black plastic box on the passenger side in front.) I didn't cover them, but didn't spend a lot of time spraying them, either.
According to Brian's newsletter, economics prevent publishing the next issue in hard copy. On-line doesn't work for me ... I don't keep my PC on the coffee table.
In addition to having this classic publication in my own hands, I have a number of friends who want to read it.
I'm willing to pay at least $5.00 for a hard copy. How many others are? What do you think of a check-writing campaign, $5.00, $10.00, or whatever, sent to Brian. I'm confident that if he doesn't receive enough to support publication, he'll tear up the checks.
Brian took a risk (and probably a financial hit)on the premiere issue, sending all members a hard copy when all that was promised was an on-line issue.
I'm very uncomfortable about breaking the streak of hard-copy issues so early in the game. I sense a huge feeling of regret coming in a few years.
Brian has given big chunks of his life keeping LLSOC going. Surely, each of us can afford $5.00 to keep Lincoln Synergy afloat.
That's why you get a laptop with a wireless modem - you can take it anywhere (or so I've heard).
What if Brian makes a printable version that you could download and print yourself? Then you would have everything except the cover. And if it got lost or damaged you could just reprint it. Assuming you have a color printer.
Please, scroll back & read up on the windows. We've beaten that topic to death and dragged the corpse around the block a few times. (Apologies to those with the problem.) If you don't like the car, don't buy it. But don't not buy it because of the window problem. An '00 with 17k has plenty of warranty left. And you may very well never need it.
As for the trans, the reflash akirby mentioned solved all the '00 problems, in those cars that had them. Many, mine included, have never had nor needed the reflash. If you're suspicious because you've been reading edmunds' road tests, take them with a grain of salt. They drove & complained about the transmission long after the fix was available at Lincoln dealers, but were apparently unaware of it.
Hitting the road for Dearborn early in the AM. Plan on about 1000 miles tomorrow, then coast the rest of the way in early Thursday. Used to think I was getting too old to enjoy 1k straight through. Either the LS has made me younger, or it is the finest interstate-eating machine I have ever owned. Or both.
Good grief--I must be getting senile! Thanks for reminding me of the build date on the auto-print tickets; I think I actually posted this info on the board at one time.
My LS dealer is small and the shop still hand-writes its tickets, so I'm not getting the Oasis-generated ones. I had all the service on both Marks done at a large Ford shop and they use the automated ones; I probably have dozens of those tickets filed away somewhere with the build date of my previous Lincolns.
Boy, do I feel silly! Seems to be happening on a regular basis...:)
The transmission shouldn't be a concern for you; as akirby pointed out, the software upgrade resolves any shifting hesitations, and the tranny itself has not been a recurring problem topic in the nearly two years that I've been reading this board.
The window-lift problem seems by far to be the most prevalent. Some people have had radio problems that have required swapouts. A small batch of '00 cars had headlight assemblies that were prone to water leaks due to a gluing error at the supplier. Some people have had electrical problems--battery drains, failure to start--and a few have seen paint and/or trim flaws.
In general, though, I'd say that the LS has performed quite well for the vast majority of owners. The long-term tests that have been performed by enthusiast organizations (Road & Track and Motorweek, for example) have resulted in rave reviews. For what it's worth, my '01 V8 Sport is 13 months old; after nearly 17,000 miles, I've had ZERO problems. My only visits to the dealer have been for routine maintenance.
If the car you're considering has had its scheduled maintenance done and has never been in an accident, it should be fine. As a daily driver, I'm extremely pleased with mine, and still think it's one of the best sport sedans on the market; hard to beat in its price range. You get a LOT of car for your money with an LS.
I need some help. My 00 LS8 Sport has had an annoying problem with a noisy brake on the right rear wheel. The dealer tells me it glaze - he has cleaned it, lubed it, replaced the pads twice but the noise is still there. Also it is not consistent. With the great weather we have been having (rare for TX) I enjoy the car all open but the noise sends a chill up my spine. To me a car of this class should not have this type of problem. I lurk on this board - spent quite a bit of time before I bought the car here though - and found it most useful. Any ideas?
The weather has been beautiful here in Texas, but I recently also began hearing brake squeal. It is intermittent but it is there. No brake problems until now. I will take it in to the dealer for the 30K and hopefully get an answer at that time. See you guys at the plant..
After owning 3 Pontiac Bonneville SLE's('99,'97,& '95)and a '88 Mercedes 300E, I special ordered '01 LS8 Sport. (Dec.'00 build). Now have 12,000 miles and absolutely no problems. Routine maintenance only with exceptional service by Nigri-McCue Lincoln in St. Charles, IL. The LS is an engineering work of art with engine packaging, interior comfort, and sophisticated suspension. Very, very pleased with overall price/performance for a sport sedan.
Looking forward to LS Mania II. Leaving at noon tomorrow. Wish you all could be there.
My brakes have been squealing for a couple of months now. Dealer blamed it on humidity (funny, it didn't do that the previous two summers...). According to the dealer, the brakes are still good for 10k (had about 20k when they checked).
I have been experiencing brake squeal for the last few months. It only happens when I go down a ramp or hill. At stoplights, stop signs, etc. there isn't any squeal. Since the dealer doesn't have any hills to test drive the car on, they haven't found anything wrong with the brakes.
Comments
There were two V8s and two V6s, all automatics. The sixes were non-Sport models; the only visual difference from prior years is the new non-Sport 7-spoke wheels. The ones on these cars were not the optional polished versions--I haven't decided whether I like them or not.
Both V8 cars had the Premium package; one was black and one was ivory. They're visually identical to last year's model. The documentation I've seen has always listed the Premium interior as two-tone light/medium parchment and light graphite/charcoal, but the graphite/charcoal interior is nearly all black. The only light graphite portions are the headliner and the A/B/C pillars--not sure why they bothered.
The non-Sports had Continental Contisport tires, and the Premium cars had Bridgestone Turanzas per the '01 running change; same sizes as last year.
One thing that surprised me was that one of the V8s had a build date of 06/29/01 on the window sticker--I didn't think production started until mid-July. The other three were mid- & late-July builds.
None of this may be news to anyone except me.
1. Manufacturing Quality: Is the vehicle properly built as designed without manufacturing defects? What are the processes to fix manufacturing defects when they are found. Do you stop the line? Do you keep the line running and stack the cars on the repair lot?, Do you ship the vehicles and have the dealer repair them before delivery? Do you wait for the customer to find the problem and complain? If you were involved in this aspect of Ford Quality, I feel you and your fellow workers did a very good job. Of the 16 Taurus's I had, I'd rate all of them very good to excellent in build quality, all 16 had very few identifiable manufacturing defects. In fact my 2000 LS is the worst Ford vehicle that I have had in the last 15 years in terms of manufacturing defects probably having more manufacturing defects than all 16 Taurus's put together. Maybe Ford should coax you out of retirement.
2. Design / Engineering Quality: Does everything work properly as intended. Does it meet or exceed industry standards for the vehicle segment? Is the vehicle design innovative and desirable? In this area I'd rate Ford as average, occasionally showing flashes of brilliance. Examples I can think of are the wrist pin problems in early Taurus Vulcan engines. LS V8 cam chain whine, sure the engine works, but it shouldn't make the noise, PCM software, the original code worked, but it took a year and a half to get it right. Seatbelt retractors that don't always retract the belt, ignition buzz in the cassette deck. The rear axle drone, $35K+ cars just shouldn't make noises like that. Speed sensitive radio volume that doesn't work anymore. These could be engineering lapses or management decisions to put the cars into production before they are fully debugged.
3. Lasting Quality, that is Durability, Will, on average, all parts of the car function without failure for an acceptable length of time? Will the car still feel solid after 50K or 100K miles. In this area I'd rate Ford as acceptable, but below most competitors and in need of improvement. I know that this gets to be a nightmare among cost, weight and durability and this is the area that my friend's comments were referring to, mainly in squeezing suppliers on price. Here are some examples that come to mind. Taurus transaxle failures, 3.8L head gasket failures, 3.0L cooling bypass hose failures, Taurus recall for subframe corrosion, Taurus motor mounts that break, 4.6L intake manifolds that crack. LS mirrors vibrating, LS trunk gasket tearing, LS rear windows that crash. How many miles before the interior starts looking ratty. How many miles can you get on the car before everything starts to fall apart? My '84 LTD-II was ready for the scrap pile at 82K. Getting a new Taurus every year gave me great old verses new comparisons after 30K miles. Quite frankly after 30K miles you could already feel the old Taurus's getting a bit sloppy in their road manners and driveline, making them feel a bit tired at that still young age. The 3rd gen. Taurus seemed to hold its stiffness and suspension response better than the previous generations but it still had similar drivelines. I'm glad to read about Ford's 150K mile durability test and my LS at 20K feels as good today as when it was new (actually better thanks to the new PCM software) but vibrating mirrors and crashing windows make me nervous that it won't hold up. Was the whole T-Bird & LS production shut down fiasco (fan pump) another result of miss guided cost cutting?
Again I didn't mean to imply that there was any conscious effort on Ford's part to let more manufacturing defects into cars and I apologize for not being more clear in my prior post. However, after 22 Fords I belive that overall product quality (engineering perfection and durability) have over the years been sacrificed in the name of cost cutting. I also believe that other car manufacturers have been guilty of similar lapses in balancing cost verses overall product quality.
But they have a "secret" menu. Besides the "Double-Double" which is on the menu as their biggest burger, they have the "3x3" Triple meat and triple cheese, the "4x4", the "5x5", and on to something that gets hard to hold with both hands like a "20x20". It really depends on your budget and appetite, although you'll get more for your money than any McDonalds, where the burgers cost more and taste like cardboard in comparison.
I think my 4x4 was $3.50. Carl's JR. wants $3.95 for their "$6.00 Burger" and it's just one fat patty. The 4x4 must be over a pound easy.
Well, Mike, it wasn't a problem. I was really hungry and hadn't eaten all day. I even had a fry and you know how big the fries are. If fact, we ordered 4 fries and it looked like a sea of fries.
Unlike McD, $20.00 will feed family of 4. Sort of like the Taco Bell of burger joints. Before InnOut
moved into San Diego County, people used to drive up to Orange County to get their fix (Open 24 hrs). I don't know if it's worth a 100 mile pilgrimage, but eating a 4x4 is an experience. You will not be hungry the next day. I don't recommend a 4x4 late at night.
They also have an "animal" option, which is a 4x4 without the buns, wrapped in lettuce for low carb diets. Great for diabetics. Lots of body builder types like In and Out. Years ago, a great status symbol here was to go to Orange County and get an "IN and OUT BURGER" bumper sticker. Then you cut out the "B" and "R" and put it on your car reading "IN and OUT URGE". When in Southern California, this is an attraction not to be missed.
I think I can shed some light on the "mystery" build date. I'm assuming you're referring to the date in the lower right hand corner which is preceded by a bunch of numbers. This is just below the Monroney law statement. If so, the date shown is apparently not the actual build date. My sticker has a date of 8/26/99, but the build date was 9/8/99. So, taking the 6/29/01 date you saw and adding the approximate 2 week gap puts the build date on the car you saw right about in the ball park. Talk about early builds! This must have been one of the first '02's off the line.
I'm guessing that the date on the sticker is the date the order was pulled or something to that effect. Does anybody know exactly what this date represents?
Regards, Artie
Yeah, the date I'm talking about is the one you described on the window sticker. How did you find out what your actual build date was? The date on my window sticker is 08/04/00, and my car arrived at the dealership on August 30, if I remember correctly. I thought that the sticker date WAS the build date. The only other date I can find is the one on the inside of the driver's door opening, and that just says 08/00.
I'm almost tempted to take out the back seat to see if there's any factory paperwork buried in there somewhere. That wouldn't be considered obsessive, would it?
Hope you have a great time at Wixom--I sure wish I was going. It sounds like it's going to be a memorable weekend!
Cheers,
Johnny C.
The Concours was fantastic! The cars were beautiful. Jaguar is still my favorite and I came close, OK, not really, to talking my wife into buying an XKE. They had some very nice examples. there was also an X-Type. Kinda overpriced, IMHO. My wife couldn't understand why the 1914 RR Silver Ghost was green and not silver
I have no quarrel with the three points of your recent post. There probably have been some 'gambles' on quality/cost trade-offs.
I still strongly object to the statement: "Ford did a study to determine how much they could let quality slide and not have customers notice the drop."
Most people in Ford, and certainly all of senior management, know that Ford spends WAAAY too much on warranty, recalls, and associated lost owner loyalty.
My beef with Ford culture is their quality strategy. They dedicate a disproportionate amount of resources to 'early detection' of new problems (special causes) at the expense of the continuity of effort necessary to eliminate the chronic problems (common causes). Some key lessons of Dr. Deming have been forgotten. One is that 85% (he later revised it to 92%) of all problems are common cause, the result of the system operating as designed. These don't go away until the system is changed.
The system won't get changed as long as the strategy is one that focuses on early detection of the special cause problems that constitute less than 10% of all the action.
I'm convinced that this is not limited to Ford. The addiction to periodic (daily, weekly, monthly) report cards that produce numbers that are misinterpreted, and used to misdirect resources, is the product of some of the best universities in the country.
This is an insidious addiction. (redundant?) An excellent read on this issue is "Understanding Variation-The Key To Managing Chaos" by Donald J. Wheeler. Published by SPC Press on Knoxville Tenn. It's only 136 pages long, so even some busy managers can knock it off in a day or two. It's a real eye-opener, highly recommended for anyone managing a business that uses numbers to measure performance.
Damn. My pulse rate and BP haven't been this high since before retirement. I gotta go take a walk.
Will be missing you at Wixom.
I'm just wrapping up a (successful) 2-year program to eliminate a group of common-cause "issues" with a part family of complex aerospace castings. If my company is any example, the Six-Sigma, TQM, Continuous Improvement, or whatever one chooses to call it, program is falling victim to "cost pressures." The 90-day mentality is back in spades, and the one-year and 5-year programs are suffering as a result.
The core concept that improving quality saves far more money than it costs still isn't believed in a lot of mahogany rows.
I have only a handful of books permanently on my desk. One is my 1993 edition of Understanding Variation. Great choice.
Also, your statement:
"The core concept that improving quality saves far more money than it costs still isn't believed in a lot of mahogany rows."
I think they believe it, but the 'system' is such that they will be in another job when the fruits of long-term actions are harvested ... and they'll get to the other job thru short-term apparent successes.
I used my brother's 5.0 HP Honda Power washer after spraying on a light coat of engine cleaner. Actually, both radiators (a/c and engine) were loaded with bugs. I too, would have liked to have sprayed from the back. I think I might have bent a couple fins, but I was careful for the most part.
Its great that you really don't have to cover up a distributor cap/rotor or air cleaner! Its as simple as opening the hood and hosing out the engine compartment.
ronniepooh... I doubt you could void your warranty by washing your engine... especially since is recommended in the manual.
Brian
I agree wholeheartedly with gschwartz's view that nobody gets too involved in long term issues (whether good or bad) because they never stay around long enough to make a difference. Those at my level, however, are stuck trying to make things function properly, sometimes without much backing. And, if we do make a go of it, our reward is to be permanently stationed there.
Go Check Your Spares TODAY!!
Had to call AAA to inflate the spare but the guy obviously didn't know what he was doing. I think he just wanted AAA to pay for a tow instead of just a service call. My wife was there, not me. I just pulled the tire off, straightened it out and aired it right up.
Now I'm looking at the flat with the nail and there isn't enough tread left to patch it, so I'm getting new tires. Looking at tirerack.com, Michelin now has the Pilot Sport A/S (all-season) and Pilot XGT Z4 available in 235/50R17. The new T-bird had MXM4s in that same size in the pictures I saw, but I get conflicting info, even from Michelin's own web site. I know the Firestones are dirt cheap but I'm a huge Michelin fan and I have never cared for Firestones, even though these haven't been too bad.
Could anyone with Michelins let me know which ones and how you like them? I'm trying to decide in the next few days. Thanks.
I'll be out at Dearborn starting Wed. through Sun. with limited access to email. I'll try to respond if possible, but it won't be with my normal speediness. I'll catch up with all my emails next week along with updating LLSOC with all the pictures of Mania 2!
We have 50 people attending the event and I'm sure everyone will be posting their comments of the event.
See ya next week!
Brian
The K&N gave me +7 peak HP and +4 torque.
Air box mod with the K&N gave me maybe +8 peak HP and +7 torque.
But the air box mod really fattened up the HP and torque curves nicely that is not reflected in the peak numbers. Needless to say, I'm pretty happy with the results - and I swear I do feel something extra when punching it at 30, 40 or 50.
I hope you guys find this interesting. Check out my posting on the Aurora board for more details.
Thanks in advance for anyone's help.
If you haven't firmed up your plans yet, give it a try.
Just to clarify from my last post - The owner's manual DOES mention covering the air cleaner box and the power distribution box (black plastic box on the passenger side in front.) I didn't cover them, but didn't spend a lot of time spraying them, either.
Thanks again.
In addition to having this classic publication in my own hands, I have a number of friends who want to read it.
I'm willing to pay at least $5.00 for a hard copy. How many others are? What do you think of a check-writing campaign, $5.00, $10.00, or whatever, sent to Brian. I'm confident that if he doesn't receive enough to support publication, he'll tear up the checks.
Brian took a risk (and probably a financial hit)on the premiere issue, sending all members a hard copy when all that was promised was an on-line issue.
I'm very uncomfortable about breaking the streak of hard-copy issues so early in the game. I sense a huge feeling of regret coming in a few years.
Brian has given big chunks of his life keeping LLSOC going. Surely, each of us can afford $5.00 to keep Lincoln Synergy afloat.
Tom
What if Brian makes a printable version that you could download and print yourself? Then you would have everything except the cover. And if it got lost or damaged you could just reprint it. Assuming you have a color printer.
As for the trans, the reflash akirby mentioned solved all the '00 problems, in those cars that had them. Many, mine included, have never had nor needed the reflash. If you're suspicious because you've been reading edmunds' road tests, take them with a grain of salt. They drove & complained about the transmission long after the fix was available at Lincoln dealers, but were apparently unaware of it.
Hitting the road for Dearborn early in the AM. Plan on about 1000 miles tomorrow, then coast the rest of the way in early Thursday. Used to think I was getting too old to enjoy 1k straight through. Either the LS has made me younger, or it is the finest interstate-eating machine I have ever owned. Or both.
My LS dealer is small and the shop still hand-writes its tickets, so I'm not getting the Oasis-generated ones. I had all the service on both Marks done at a large Ford shop and they use the automated ones; I probably have dozens of those tickets filed away somewhere with the build date of my previous Lincolns.
Boy, do I feel silly! Seems to be happening on a regular basis...:)
JLinc, getting older by the second
The window-lift problem seems by far to be the most prevalent. Some people have had radio problems that have required swapouts. A small batch of '00 cars had headlight assemblies that were prone to water leaks due to a gluing error at the supplier. Some people have had electrical problems--battery drains, failure to start--and a few have seen paint and/or trim flaws.
In general, though, I'd say that the LS has performed quite well for the vast majority of owners. The long-term tests that have been performed by enthusiast organizations (Road & Track and Motorweek, for example) have resulted in rave reviews. For what it's worth, my '01 V8 Sport is 13 months old; after nearly 17,000 miles, I've had ZERO problems. My only visits to the dealer have been for routine maintenance.
If the car you're considering has had its scheduled maintenance done and has never been in an accident, it should be fine. As a daily driver, I'm extremely pleased with mine, and still think it's one of the best sport sedans on the market; hard to beat in its price range. You get a LOT of car for your money with an LS.
Good luck with your decision.
I swear that console armrest is perfectly placed, and the seats are the best I've ever seen.
Great car. :-)
Great idea, Gary- I'd have no problem anteing up $5.00 for a hard copy
al
regards,
Airwolf1000
Looking forward to LS Mania II. Leaving at noon tomorrow. Wish you all could be there.
Wes