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Comments
Lincoln.....103,343.. 92.3%
Cadillac....99,798... 92.4%
MB..........92,304... 68.4%
Lexus.......85,294.. 57.7%
BMW........80,793.. 55.6
Jag..........28,513... 100.0%
Porsche....17,029.. 100.0%
Does that make it qualify as a recall? To me the issue is a KNOWN defect in a KNOWN number of cars and as the part has been redesigned THREE times (I have a "contact"), a KNOWN supplier problem. I've had recalls on previous cars that weren't "safety" related. If Ford/Lincoln is just waiting for our cars to go out of warranty so they won't have to bear the cost, I'll be TRULY disappointed. Of my 12 cars, 7 have been Ford's, 4 Chrysler/Plymouth and a Honda(YUK!). My last 5 consecutive cars have been Ford's and none of them costing this much. Up until this issue I've been extremely satisfied with my Ford experience. It seems like such a minor thing to "step up to the plate" and make right. Like I said before, I bleed Ford blue, however if my window fails out of warranty and I must bear the cost of the DEFECT that was KNOWN for the previous 3 YEARS, I may have to look elsewhere. This is the treatment I would expect from KIA, Hyundai(with deference to a previous poster) or Yugo.
Done ranting.
Maybe they should rename it the X9, but then next month they may have to rename it the X12.
The window problem is not a safety related issue. That's what a recall is used for. Having the window come down and lose control over the car is about the same as having someone go BOO as you drive. I don't think the windows fail in a dramatic enough fashion to warrant that statement.
While I know this next statement is going to generate a discussion, I'm going to go there anyway.
If you were to put yourself in Lincoln's place for a minute, 2000 sales of LSes were about 50,000. This is the model year that has the window problem. Say it costs about $200 per vehicle to replace the regulators. That takes into account the cost of the parts, logistics, labor, etc. May be high, who knows.
That would come to $10 million. If you had to make the call, would you spend the $10 million on replacing all of them, knowing that maybe so far, there have been maybe 5,000 of them that have failed out of the 50,000? Or would you look at it statistically and think while there are probably 3,000 of these owners who won't buy a LS again, what is the probability that those that haven't had the problem occur, won't? As 75% of the 2000 model LSes were leased and 90% of those were on a 3 year lease, with warranty in effect, what would the chances of the regulators failing before the end of the lease be?
Would you spend the $10 million to fix the problem even if most owners who haven't had the problem don't even know about the problem or do you decide to fix them as they break and use the $10 million dollars on development?
I'm not condoning the way Lincoln or more correctly, the dealers have handled the situation. I believe that they are going to use this as a learning curve so that this doesn't happen again, but I think for us to not look at the big picture would be unfair.
Will there be some of us that won't have a LS when their lease or buy is up because of problems that occured? Yup. Will there be some of us that will keep the LS or will trade for a new one because we haven't had very many problems? Yup.
Where the business decision gamble pays off is if Lincoln bets that there will be more people who re-up for a LS at the end of their term than those that don't.
The most interesting part of the article I thought, other than Lincoln being on top in luxury sales, is the absence of Infiniti and Acura from the list. This is because Infiniti and Acura have less than 50% of thier sales in the luxury category.
Mine may never fail, as I rarely open them. However, part of that is I'm afraid to open them and absolutely will not during the coming winter, or when I'm a long way from home. Nothing that happens to the windows is going to dissuade me from buying another Lincoln, but it seems like an acknowledged defect should be somehow addressed. Maybe an offer to waive the warranty time/mileage limitation on the window mechanisms. Or a dealer's-cost price on the repair for those of us who would be willing to pay to have it fixed before it breaks.
Be forewarned: If anyone happens to find themself in the back seat of my car during Mania 2 weekend, hands off those !#@*^ window switches!:)
Over 200 automobiles of various classes including antiques, classic and vintage racing and sports cars will be on display. The honored Marque this year is Jaguar and a special venue will feature Pre-War Stock Fords and a Ford Racing Centennial Display.
http://www.orangecoastconcours.com/
I purchased my LS, and currently own it outright. While I have a '00MY LS, and consequently do not have the 3-yr Lincoln warranty that '01MY LSs, I have a 3-yr warranty from my dealer covering absolutely everything. Once the LS starts costing me more money than I've already spent, then I'll start considering my options. Prior to my Lincoln, I was a VERY satisfied Nissan owner (300ZX & Axxess minivan). The Axxess had 250K miles on it after 10 years of VERY reliable service. The Z had 100K miles after 10 years of completely trouble free life (only 2 fuel injectors, one break job, no clutch). If the LS/Lincoln come up short, I'll not hesitate to return to Nissan/Infiniti, particularly if their products are as inspiring as their newest models appear to be. The only reason I happened to "discover" the Lincoln LS was that I was not impressed with the Nissan/Infinity products in '99 and '00 model years. At the time I was in the market, the LS was far and away the best value in a performance sedan. I have not, for one minute, regretted my purchase. The LS has been a very satisfying vehicle to own. However, this little window problem, and how Lincoln handles it, will go a long way in how I view future vehicle purchases.
I'm not sure if I read your post correctly. All LSes have a 3 year, 50,000 mile warranty. The 2000s didn't come with the standard maintenance included that the 2001s and later have but that should be the only difference. Is that what you meant?
Now don't think that I condone or am making excuses with what's happening with the windows. I'm sure mine will break at some point and I'll need to have the regulators replaced. Funnily enough, I use my rear windows daily. You'd think mine would have bit the dust by now with all the use.
I think Lincoln and the dealers could have done a better job of dealing with the problem, especially ensuring there were enough parts in the pipeline so that owners didn't have to wait weeks on end with their windows taped up though.
There will definitely be people who will not buy another Lincoln or Ford product because of the problems they have had with the LS. If I were in their shoes I would feel the same way. While statistics across a marque help from a business viewpoint, most people won't care that they are the in the minority if the problems are affecting them. I'm the same way. I won't buy a Chrysler product or even look at them after my experience with a 83 Shelby Charger. And it doesn't matter how good the reviews are of their products or how well they rated in the J.D. Powers surveys.
A car is a very personal choice and the way we each perceive the quality of the build, sales and service experience is ulimately how we decide if we want to look at that manufacturere again for future purchases. There are also additional factors that play into that decision, but at least for me, those are a big part of the purchasing decision, which is probably why I've just about always purchased a Ford product. Doesn't mean I haven't looked at others. If I could have afforded a BMW M-5 I would have bought it. But as it is, I stretched really hard to get the LS and I'm still glad I did.
I am concerned with the problems, because as the LLSOC president, I represent all the members, and their problems become my problems. And if Lincoln wants to seriously compete in this class they are going to have to do better overall. But if I didn't belong to LLSOC or read Edmunds I honestly wouldn't know that there where problems with the car because I haven't had very many problems with my car.
Brian, that situation I described was a little lawyerese :~) You know, blow the situation WAY out of proportion
karzz: The Concours is a So Cal chapter event. There is info on the Club site message boards, So Cal chapter.
On a lighter note. Went to the dealer yesterday to have a sun visor replaced (it rattled like crazy!). Went to pick up the car and was given a $25 bill. I said this should be a warranty item. She said it was for the only thing they did, a lube oil and filter! Didn't do the visor. Got the oil change comped, too bad I put in Mobil1 and filter 2k ago
Support: 1)My experience at Ford. 2)I recently received one for my son's 1999 Contour. It will repair a warped instrument panel cover, at no charge, thru August, 2002, regardless of mileage.
Why hasn't an owner notification been issued on the LS windows yet? In all liklihood, validation testing of the 'new' parts, followed by parts availibility. Ford, in my experience, will not issue a recall, owner notification, or TSB until parts are in the depots.
So, your frustration and anger toward what has happened is understandable, but anger toward what you're guessing will NOT happen, I think, should be re-considered.
I'll wager, even money with all comers, that a owner notification similar to what I've described will happen. (No, I do not have any 'inside' information)
Also, as a Ford retiree and shareholder, I'm ashamed that Ford has allowed the LS owners on this board to stew on this issue.
I suspected that Jim Rogers' participation and openness were too good to be true ... counter to the Ford culture that I knew. We lost a valuable risk-taker. I hope we get another, but I'm not betting on that one.
However, I just picked up my 2000 V8 Sport LS from the dealer. It spent a month there this time. I don't want to count the number of problems or visits to the service department in the past year. Most problems fixed under warranty of course.
The most annoying problem, the dreaded drone, had the TSB applied. After that repair, a whine developed. The whine detracts from the car to the point that I don't want to drive it. The dealer just rebuilt the transmission according to a TSB indicating new planetary gears, and that removed the AVIS bus like whine when accelerating from a stop. Unfortunately, the troublesome 1500RPM whine remains. Put that on top of a bad coil, noisy climate control doors, leaking headlamps, a bad speaker, fit and finish issues, and the recall on the lower ball joints, all in the first year. And I have window regulators to look forward to.
My current service advisor was assigned after 3 others either left or were ineffective. While things were repaired slowly, at least he is trying. Next week they want to replace the rear. I don't see how a constant RPM whine would be coming from the rear, but I'm out of options.
Unlike the high percentage percentage listed that lease the LS, I buy my vehicles cash. Unless I take a bath on resale, I'm stuck with this one. In the past, I've worked in Ford service. I've never owned anything but Ford products; my 72 Pinto was the first. Now the LS whine impersonates that Pinto.
But even if MSRP was not used, in the example you provide, a $41,000 car with a $3000 discount and a $5000 rebate would have a sales price of $38,000 and would thus still counted as a 'luxury car' since rebates are just that, something that is given back after the sale. A buyer's sales tax and luxury tax ($0) are based on the $38,000 not the $33,000.
Factory rebates, dealer rebates, subvented lease rates, special financing, free maintenance, free Bose stereos, free trips to Europe for European delivery, free first month payment, etc. etc. are all booked as 'marketing costs' by all the manufacturers, and will not show up in any publically available data pertinent to this calculation. Which is why Automotive News uses the only consistent way of calculating these sales, and that is by MSRP.
On 2001 and 2002 models, regular maintenance items are covered by a separate 3 year/36,000 mile package. That is, you don't have to pay for oil and filter changes or anything else that is included in the standard maintenance schedule. If you follow the heavy-duty schedule (as I do), you can upgrade your package for a nominal fee. You can also extend the package to 4 years and 50k miles on either the regular or h-d schedule.
The maintenance-item plan also includes spark plugs (different for California), shocks, clutch disc on manuals, belts and hoses, brake pads and linings, and wiper blades.
The only caveat to the maintenance coverage is that you have to have the work done at a Lincoln dealer. You can still have service and warranty work done at a Ford or Mercury shop, but if they don't sell Lincolns, you have to pay for your own oil changes, tire rotations, etc. Also, you have to use Ford/Lincoln standard parts and such. If you choose, for example, to use synthetic oil, you have to pay for it.
Maybe once a reliable regulator design is in place and parts are readily available, I'll just start rapidly cycling my windows until they fail. At least that way, I 'll be assured that the windows won't fail at an inopportune time!
Geez, my solution sounds as hokey as the problem does!
I totally agree with you. This is a known problem affecting a signficant number of cars; I assume my '01 is in that mix. Although it's not a safety issue (but I admire ezair's attempt to classify it as such
It's not like this is rocket science, either--power windows have been around for a VERY long time. My mom, my dad, and I have had nearly 20 vehicles with power windows over the past 30+ years and NONE of them have had problems like the one on the LS. I did have a window motor fail on my Mark 7, but at least it conked with the window up and was promptly replaced under warranty with no recurrence. This is an inherent design and/or manufacturing failure in the LS that needs to be corrected; why in the HECK have they had to go through this many iterations to get something that works, fercryin' out loud?
My gut feeling is that it comes down to cost-cutting. That may be completely wrong, but it seems logical to me that the overwhelming thrust to cut every last penny out of the process has bitten us. I hope that, once this is resolved, someone at Lincoln does a thorough analysis to determine how much it cost to NOT spend the extra dollar (or whatever) to spec a part that wouldn't fail the way these do.
I trust that G. Schwartz's post #5066 predicts the outcome of all this--he certainly has the background & experience to know how these things work, and I'll put my $$ with his on this issue. I also think he's also right on the money in his last 2 paragraphs, unfortunately.
(What's personally disturbing is that the dealer nearest to my house is the same one that sniemietz has been dealing with! I didn't buy my car there; sure hope I never have to resort to using them for service.)
JLinc, '01 V8 Sport, windows still operational...
Why you ask?
Because they will fail... at some point ....at some time.... at your cost or theirs...
GM currently has a 0% interest rate on new cars.... uhmmmm sounds inviting...
Kevin
karzz: Supposedly it's limited to just the 2000 model year LS. On the JagTalk board (I'm assuming that's the one your talking about) they have had mention of similar window problems on the 2000 S-Type awhile back. Probably doesn't happen as much since it's tough to keep a proper British attitude with the windows open
They use the same mechanism as the LS. I suspect that the Jaguar dealers and Jaguar have handled this very differently than Lincoln and Lincoln dealers have. And if I had to hazard an uneducated guess, I'd bet that the Jaguar owners got the redesigned part first. If you think we howl over this with our LSes, imagine being the Jaguar dealer who has to tell a very irate S-Type owner who paid 10k more than we did, that they have to drive around with duct tape!
Now the S-type folks also have the same problems with the mystery beep and the front-end vibration (they call it a shimmy) as we do.
It's a shame that we have not heard from her yet. I really believe that Lincoln has a chance to really cut in to BMW sales yet will squander the opportunity.
I knew we were in trouble when her bio said she went to Duke for her masters. Living here in RTP, NC, Duke business school produces great bean counters and basketball fans-never heard of an auto enthusiast graduating from Duke.
I would not be surprised if JR's involvement was responsible for 20% of us buying the LS.
Brian, how do we get a Ford Senior Management sponsor.
I wouldn't be too quick to abandon the notion that Lincoln execs aren't monitoring this board along with the LLSOC board. They may just not surface like Jim did. Based on some recent things I'm starting to think that they are still here, just not visible.......
Brian
Two weeks from tomorrow, on the return trip from LS Mania 2, my '00 V8 Sport will 1)turn over 30k miles, and 2) be exactly one year old.
Minuses: 1) Firehawks will be about finished, due no doubt to a lot of "spirited" cornering. 2)It has just developed it's first rattle, coming from the large wud trim piece on the driver's door (needs to be re-glued, I guess). 3)...nope, that's it.
Pluses: Still get up in the morning looking forward to the 45 mile drive to work. Still find myself looking for the longer, or at least less straight, way from A to B. Windows & seat heaters A-OK. ITH never a problem. SEG still firmly in place. Seat comfort second to none. Still marvel at the way it feels like it's being sucked down to the pavement when braked hard. At the way it handles bumpy pavement on twisty county roads. At how fast I hit 100+ mph unintentionally (honest!) when passing. This car is an absolute pleasure, every day.
And I've got till Oct. '05 to set aside enough cash so I can buy the next one without having to trade this one in.
Also, does the remote key fob allow for one touch up/down on all windows and moon roof???
Thanks.
The remote key fob lets you open all windows & moonroof with one touch, just hold the unlock button until thye all open. Unfortunately there is no one button lock.
I realize that safety can mean different things to different people. I feel confident that we'd all agree that four wheels staying attached to the car is considered "safe". I also feel that being able to leave the car unattended and locked, and find it that way when I return falls under the heading of safety.
I take this car on vacation. How "safe" is it if I leave the car in a hotel parking lot for several nights, not knowing if the windows will stay up. If I remember correctly, I believe that jond posted a few posts earlier that his windows crashed in his office parking lot, while the car was stationary. How "safe" were any of his posessions in a car with an open window? Especially, when he thought the window was closed, and would remain that way until his return. What if it started to rain, or in my part of the country snow, a few minutes after you left the car?
If I'm on a trip, how quickly can I get repairs made if the window does fail? Again, this isn't some cutesy, high-tech accessory we're talking about. It's a window mechanism.
One more thing in closing....While a number of you folks have mentioned that you may not get another LS when the lease runs out, I'm one of those who bought the car. We put about 8.5K miles a year on it, and for $35K, expect it to last for a while, and be reasonably trouble free.
I'll repeat that I am in no way, shape or form unhappy with the way the car behaves. It's a lot of fun to drive, but some of the issues that we discuss here have me concerned about the long-term viability of this car.
I know this because I traded my LS on Saturday for a loaded 2002 Chevy Silverado pickup. 4.9% since I financed for 60 months - still a good deal. The low rate combined with my ability to get supplier price sucked up about half the negative equity on my LS lease.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=596015931&ssPageName=Reco
Brian
Now what makes the Super Sport so much more Super than all of our Sport Models? Please share the details.
Regards,
Airwolf 1000
Thomas_L Sorry you had to make the move away from the LS but it is inevitable that we can all be LSers forever... A little change is always good. Thanks for coming along for the ride...
Also, this wheel doesn't look thicker than mine. Has anyone measured the difference?
Joe
Its one thing for the window to crash while you are operating it. However unsupervised crashing? Definitely not acceptable.. Now I am going to fret anytime I leave my car in a parking lot when I go to dinner or shopping at a mall. Yikes!
Some action needs to be taken by Lincoln. Any suggestions on how we can make sure the fixes come about?
Stanny. I remember you mentioning there were desing flaws in the second iteration also (I.e. the non spinning plastic pulley)? Can you outline all the design shortcomings. Maybe they can be presented to Lincoln Formally. I would love to see the Window Mechanism now to see exactly what is failing. Don't want to take my car apart though just for Grins.
I don't want to cause any antagonism but we need to help ford identify shortcomings (When the customer base can) and ford needs to listen and take action. It sounds like a good partnership to me. As long as both sides are willing to work together. Sure some things are nits, but the window problem is ridiculous. The dealership where I go to has repaired alot of crashed windows. If you are going to fix it, fix it right.
Regards,
Airwolf1000
WIndows still working after 5 days (but afraid to use them)....
The 4 year/50,000 mile factory warranty transfers to the new owner without charge. Note that the '01 3 year/36k service coverage is a separate package, but my guess is that it should transfer as well. I checked my owners manual and warranty & service books, and there's no mention of this package being available ONLY to the original owner. You might try calling the Lincoln Commitment number at 1-800-521-4140 and asking them; sounds to me like the dealer is trying to put one over on you.
Airwolf Re: #5091, #5095.
There's no such thing as a factory LS Super Sport; that has to be some sort of dealer package. I hope the buyer got a written warranty from the dealer on all the added parts, because they won't be covered by Lincoln if there are any problems.
Stan has posted some info and photos on the windows on the LLSOC website. Click on the "FAQ" link to find his paragraph on fixing one of the window problems, and click on the "gallery" link to find 8 large photos of a door with the interior panel removed. This won't answer all your questions, but it's a great place to start.
http://www.llsoc.com
The LS uses a wire/cable system instead of the more traditional "scissors" system. How many manufacturers use either method I do not know. Possibly LM thought they would try this technique and it was not tested thoroughly enough.
Well, Dick Cupka acknowledged the broken finger and plastic plug as problems but not the lack of tensioner/winding guide/"D" shaped plastic "non-bearing" issues that were also my concerns.
So I pinned my window up until my left rear failed (plastic plug only failure) and in October my dealer replaced both mechanisms. I have not had a problem since. And I also have not had the time to do an autopsy to find out what modifications were made to my replacement units.
We may be the guinea pigs for field testing incremental redesigns.
Keep in mind, guys, that I am not an engineer but a lowly real estate broker. I try to help but alas, I don't know the answers. But I am not afraid to tear something apart and try to make it work or work better. Sort of like Tim Allen on Tool Time with the same results...
Jag S, BMW, and Mercedes all get the Consumer Reports "RECOMMENDED" emblem.
Highs of the S-Type were styling, handling, and braking, but they prefer the "less-sexy, lower-priced cousin, the LS".
"I notice that the cruise and radio controls are reversed on this wheel. Is this common on all S-types? Is this because its a British, right-side-drive design?"
It was the case on the S-Type that I rented (from Hertz) a couple of months ago in Arizona. This was one of several things I found rather odd. Another that I attribute to the 'British-ness' of the Jag was the windshield wiper pattern. The reverse of my LS - and the (lack of) coverage was quite annoying in a couple of downpours I ran into.
And I could not enjoy the J shift - any more than I could when I last drove a XJ sedan....
Cheers,
- Ray
Who STILL might consider an S-Type - if the R arrives with over 350 hp.....