Lincoln LS

fantom

Two in my family have just been called to active duty. Jeff flys F-16s out of Texas and John flys F-15s out of New Orleans. May the good Lord watch over all of us, as I fear the worst is yet to come. God bless America and all freedom loving people. It is not trite to say that freedom is not free. The character and resolve of our generation is about to be tested. May we do the right thing.

While I love the red, white and blue of the French, I hope there is an American flag on this post.

ronniepooh

..are what we need. El Al Airlines has not had a hijack in over 25 years. What do they do?
#1. Unlike US pilots, Israeli pilots are commanded to NEVER, EVER leave the cockpit.
#2. They have TWO steel reinforced locked doors.
#3. Not one, but TWO plainclothes armed airmarshalls.
#4. This one is what Americans will reject, but Israel utilizes "profiling" of Arabs, at least in airports. If you have a last name prefaced with "el" or "al" or the phonetic sound of "ohck" in any portion of your name, you get special attention in Israeli airports. Face it, fellas, the majority of terrorism against Americans are cause by persons from one section of the world. Have you seen the names of the 18 hijackers? They sound amazingly like the names of the terrorists who bombed the WTC several years ago, and the names of the suspects in the Cole bombing, and the Tanzania and Kenya bombings.

Over 6,000 Americans were killed in a matter of about 2 hours. Tens of BILLIONS of US Dollars are lost. Airlines are going bankrupt. Lives are changed forever in America.

Desperate times, desperate measures.

pat

Leonard Pitts in the Miami Herald, published 9/12/01: We'll go forward from this moment.

(Sorry, René - we can't directly quote copyrighted articles due to legal issues, but links are fine.)

Pat
Host
Sedans Message Board

pat

I realize you are telling us what goes on in Israel, but regarding your "#4" we are not going to get into a discussion here about any nationality, ethnic or religious group as a *group* being more or less likely to do something like this again nor being responsible for what has happened this week or in previous terrorist acts.

If we want to mention our anger specifically at the criminal terrorists who perpetrated these horrendous acts, that is okay. However, we must remember that some number of individuals are responsible. To say anything that paints any ethnic or religious group with the same brush as these criminals is patently wrong and cannot occur in postings here in Town Hall.

Town Hall is a wide and varied community of wonderful folks of all sorts of backgrounds, nationalities, religions, lifestyles and beliefs. Let us remember that this is a public board, our purpose is to discuss vehicles and everyone reading our comments has feelings, too.

All over the world, including within Town Hall, Muslims, and Middle Easterners are condemning what has happened and explaining that their religious beliefs in no way tolerate what has occurred.

I'm not jumping on you personally, ronniepooh, I just think these points need to be made. Your post gave me the opportunity.

We have a member of another discussion here on the Sedans board who is a Muslim, an American, and presumably of Middle Eastern descent. He lives in New York. Every day since this has happened he has been in the midst of what they are calling "ground zero" helping out as much as he is able. He has had rocks hurled at him repeatedly, received stitches in his head as a result, experiences nearly unceasing verbal harrassment and continues to return to help. All of this has happened to him because he "looks" Middle Eastern and his name has those characteristics that you say Israel "profiles" in airports. He is an American who is as sickened and angry about what has happened as every American is, yet because of his appearance and his name he is suffering physical and verbal abuse as he repeatedly gives every moment he can to helping the rescue efforts. He is also a fine community member in Town Hall who has suffered within Town Hall because of broad racist characterizations made in a couple of posted messages.

I hope everyone sees my point. Sorry for the length of this.

Thanks to everyone for your understanding.

Pat
Host
Sedans Message Board

tom12253

We are all in a daze from what has happened but there is something truly wonderful I see happening, everyone seems to be more concerned about his or her family and friends now. The trivial things that bothered all of us in our lives before this week seem to be meaningless. Last night people lined the main highway through my town for hours with candles and flags and cheered as cars passed by and blew their horns. These feelings of intense sorrow and unity at the same time can be overwhelming and emotional but in some way I see some good out of this evil tragedy that has scarred all of us for the rest of our lives. I have never seen so many people sharing their feelings, thoughts and hugs before. It truly warms my heart to see so much unity and love between all of us in this magnificent United States of America.

Tom

ls1bmw0

Remember no one wanted to get rid of Irish or Scottish immigrants who's last name sounded like McVeigh. We are angry, we are hurt, but the one thing that has always differentiated this great country of ours is that we have always welcomed people in who needed us. Arabs, Jews, Christians, Muslims, atheists. We are Americans because we are, to borrow the Jamaican expression, "out of many, one". Those of us from foreign lands who came here because of fear from our former countries, were welcomed by strangers who did not know us, but who treated us as equals.

Don't let the few evil ones among us turn us against each other. Then they will have won. And I'm not about to let that happen.

I remember going to the Statue of Liberty and reading the poem by Emma Lazarus, inscribed at the base of Lady Liberty soon after we arrived in this country.

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land,
Here at our sea-washed, sunset-gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisioned lightning, and her name Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome, her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin-cities frame.

"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she,
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore;
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

ls1bmw0

The Lincoln LS Owners Club would like everyone to send a picture of themselves and/or their families standing next to your American flag. Send it by email or by letter. It doesn't matter if you're a member or not. If you're flying a flag anywhere, then I'd like a picture of it with you.

I am going to take each picture, hopefully a lot of them, and put them ALL into the next issue of Lincoln Synergy as a tribute to those who have fallen.

The email address is: brian.gowing@llsoc.com. The club's mailing address is: 31566 Railroad Canyon Rd., #681, Canyon Lake, CA 92587-9446

Brian Gowing
Founder/President
Lincoln LS Owners Club

heyjewel

You folks wanna keep it? Or give it away due to mis-directed sympathy and just plain stupid political correctness?

I'm not going to apologize for this post. I'm going to speak my mind. Hopefully Pat will allow it, as she allowed herself to speak hers. Everyone else can see me as they see fit. Some may think I'm crazy. Others no doubt already do! But I really hope everyone reads it. I think it's important that these thoughts be considered.

I love this country. I served in the USAF during the Vietnam era. In fact, I spent a year and a half at the Pentagon. But I've never been a flag-waving jingoist. I despised Richard Nixon. I'm sure my car was the only one in the Pentagon parking lot which had anti-Nixon Watergate bumper stickers on it. So don't paint me as some gung-ho hawk. I've never been that.

I remember duck and cover drills in elementary school in the 50's when we lived in fear of the Soviets. We even talked (my father I mean) about turning our cellar (in Boston) into a fallout shelter. As if that would do any good. And I remember being afraid. I remember looking up at the sky sometimes expecting to see a missile coming at me. I never did and for that, I thank the US military.

There was this policy, you know it - aptly acronymned "MAD" - Mutually Assured Destruction. And it did sound like madness. But it worked. The Soviets had their eyes on destroying us, sure enough, but they knew if they launched on us, we would retaliate and DESTROY them. Being, if nothing else, reasonably sane people, the leaders of the Soviet Union valued their lives and the lives of their children and so they never did bring upon the doomsday war. And of course neither did we. But ... what if the Soviets had believed that dying for their Communist cause would be the greatest thing they could ever do? That it would bring them to a heavenly after-life, a complete oneness with their God and whatever else? ....

Now, after Tuesday, I feel that childhood fear agin. Except it's now magnified 100 times. Why? Because now I'm not only afraid for me, but also for my 13-yr old, 2.5 year old and just about to be born daughters. These beautiful little girls have NO IDEA what's going on or how it could affect them. But I do. And I feel TOTALLY helpless. Is there anything I can do to assure them a world at least no worse than the duck'ncover world I grew up in?

The events of Tuesday were unbelievably gut-wrenching. I can't say much more about it. It's insane, a crime against humanity of the most horrific kind, the acts of people who have NO respect for human life. NOT EVEN THEIR OWN. But I'm afraid we ain't seen nothin yet.

"These people", whether a fanatical few or hordes of millions, want to annihilate Western civilization. Nothing less will do for them. If you don't believe me, you're in denial. 5000 dead Americans caused celebrations in the streets of certain countries or non-countries. What a party there'd be if it were 500,000, eh?

Anyone who puts some thought into this situation will come to the inevitable conclusion that these terrorists will use ANY weapon they can deliver against us. Chemical, biological or NUCLEAR. There is nothing we can do to appease them. And please recall what happened the last time a great appeasement was tried!

So let's get serious here. Does ANYONE on this list think that if these 19 guys had access to a small nuclear weapon that they would have hesitated a minute to use it? And don't we all understand that SOONER OR LATER THEY WILL HAVE AN A-BOMB OR AN H-BOMB? And when they do, there'll be a line from the Gaza Strip to Kabul full of martyrs just begging to be the hero who puts that bomb in a backpack and sets it off in down town New York or Tel Aviv, or LA or wherever (YOUR city here.) If you don't understand the truth in what I'm saying, you must be suicidal.

Now for the oh-so-terrible part. The part where I heaven-forbid OPEN MY EYES AND SEE WHO THESE PEOPLE ARE WHO ARE TRYING TO ANNIHILATE US. What do they all have in common? I want to know my enemy. Do they have red hair and freckles? Uh, no. Are they all of African descent? Nope. Asian? no. Are they from another planet? If only ... perhaps we could send em back like in the movies.

No, unfortunately they're from this planet. All 19 who were on the planes that crashed into the World Trade Center, the suspected ring-leader, the bombers of the USS Cole, the embassies in Africa, the lunatics who blew up Pan Am 103 over Scotland, the idiots who blow up or shoot a Jew practically every day in Israel, the [non-permissible content removed] who killed over 200 Marines in Lebanon, the morons who killed the Israeli athletes in Munich, shot up airports, hijacked countless planes, killed over a million of their OWN BRETHREN, many barely teenagers, in a long border fight, lobbed chemical weapons onto villages of people of a different religion in their own country, are right now slaughtering and ENSLAVING Christians in Africa, who will kill their wife if she is raped, kill their own daughter if she dishonors them, and on and on and on.

Just what is it these people have in common? I hate to break the news to you but THEY ARE ALL MUSLIMS. Followers of Islam. Conductors of Jihads (holy wars). Fanatics who will accept no other beliefs but their own. And will KILL you if think differently. And will happily kill themselves while killing you.

Forget logic. Forget mathematics. Forget literature. Forget George Orwells' dire predictions. This terrible threat is real and it is MUSLIMS who are carrying it out. Not all Muslims are terrorists, but all the terrorists I enumerated above are .. whoops most of them were kamikazes .. WERE MUSLIMS.

So I would like for everyone to think about this carefully. If our government is to protect us from these fanatics, wouldn't it be a good idea if our police, military, airline personnel, ..., would perhaps be a bit more likely to suspect an 'Arab looking' (almost all Arabs are Muslims after all) fellow or fellows of potentially being terrorists than, say, a Swedish grandma on holiday?

OK, I'm going to yell: IF WESTERN CIVILISATION IS TO SURVIVE WE MUST GET OVER OUR GUILT-RIDDEN POLITICALLY-CORRECT WAY of interacting with the world. We must realize that to stop people fitting the profile of a terrorist is the only way we'll catch them. Please people, if you can't see this, there is no hope for us.

And it's certainly unfortunate that an "American Muslim" was the victim of the conduct described above. And I hope the feelings of all good American Muslims do not get hurt but I got another flash for you MOST if not all of these 19 murderous bast*rds were living in America when these crimes were committed. Either student visas, green cards, citizens, whatever. One apparently had been IN THE USAF.

So you bring up Tim McVeigh. A sorry excuse for an ex-marine if I ever heard one. A murderous horrible excuse for a human being. But ther

heyjewel

A murderous horrible excuse for a human being. But there are 2 things that make him quite different from these Muslim terrorists: 1) He was an anomaly. 2) He didn't sit in the truck and blow himself up too. He valued his life.

So, to sum up: if we fail to profile these terrorists, follow them, hunt them, pick them up, kick them out and keep them out of America, if we fail to do this, we will perish. They WILL nuke us.

Terrorists: you ARE Humanity's weakest link -

GOOD BYE!

slunar

Quite frankly I've haven't felt like reading & posting about cars since last Tuesday. What has made things even more sickening is that I have already received e-mails, one of which from someone I know, urging me to sign peace petitions that ask the US government not to retalliate. Such thinking is idiocy at best. To me it says those peace petition people hold no regard for the 5000+ lives lost in the attacks and they don't have a clue as to how precious our freedom is. What's on their minds, to sit by idly so we can let our enemies attack us next with with nuclear weapons and kill 100,00 peole? Then attack us again with biological weapons and kill 1,000,000 Americans? Even if you despise war this is a time when we must fight back or say good-bye to our value system and our way of life.

slunar

Price8, I'm not being insulting here, just trying to help, but if the Toyota Avalon is attractive to you the Lincoln LS is not the car for you. The LS is a sports car with 4 doors. The Avalon is Japan's answer to the American mobile living room with 4 tires & a steering wheel. If you are thinking American you should look at a Buick Century, Lincoln Continental, Ford Crown Victoria or Mercury Gran Marquis. All of those cars are more in line with the Avalon's attributes.

ronniepooh

I nominate you for president. Amen. Funny thing is, I dont think your going to hear too much backlash from your post. Apparently Pat the Host has been on another planet for awhile. Hey Pat...in case you didnt know, let me fill you in. Last week, 19 Middle Eastern (once again) terrorists with familiar sounding names killed over 5000 innocent civilians and have caused literally tens of billions of dollars in property and commerce damage to the civilized world. Theyve permanenty changed our way of life. (I can almost guarantee you that weve seen the end of commercial airline traffic at Reagan National Airport in DC, as a small example),They caused torturous and unbearable physical pain (do you know that many in the buildings were instantly vaporized by the intense burning jet fuel, Pat?) to thousands.

Before this bombing, heyjewel, the mere MENTION of profiling of the types of persons responsible for all of the terrorist acts you mentioned above would have meant flames heading your way from probably every "Politically Correct" fool on this board. Not anymore. From what Im seeing daily, Americans and civilized human beings in general are pissed. Eyes are opening. 19 losers (I can only imagined how they smelled) took US Commercial Jumbo jets and used them as mass weapons of destruction against us. Names such as Smith, Jones, Gomez, Jackson, Cho, dont seem to appear on the lists of suspects. Oh, there are still a few folks (like Pat, the host) who need to see a few more horrific terrorist acts against babies and innocent civilians commited by gentlemen with certain accents and too many "a"'s in their first and last names before they change their mind on profiling. Im not saying re-open internment camps, but Im saying we need to examine real closely who our enemy is. SOME OF THESE TERRORISTS LIVED IN OUR COUNTRY FOR AS LONG AS TWO YEARS. Im sure they looked a lot like the same innocent Muslims who go to Mosque, go to the grocery store, and live normal every day US lives. THEY LIVE AMONGST US. Time to pay closer scrutiny to a certain segment of our community. Whens the last time a regular white guy hijacked a plane and killed thousands of innocent people? Whens the last time an African Americam black guy (muslim or no muslim) from Harlem drove a truck bomb into an embassy? Farrakhan and the Nation of Islam are pretty extreme, but Im fairly certain even that group has never caused a world terrorist attack.) Whens the last time a Mexican killed dozens of marines in Beirut? Puh-leez people. Wake up now and smell the coffee.

Know who the enemy is.

It's time to change immigration and certain civil liberty laws that terrorists are using to exploit us.

cb44

Ronniepooh,

How is jumping on the Pat the host here helping anyone. You need to channel your anger somewhere else. You sweeping statements above are almost as frightening as the events earlier this week. Stick to car talk here and share your bigotry with your friends.

garnes

Questions - not to be insensitive to what has happened to our country, but I believe it is a good thing to continue with life (including this board) for purely mental health reasons. Having said that, I do have a car question for the guys on this board.

I have located an aftermarket mass air flow sensor for my car. I've noted that Brian has used one. Why are they better?? Is it all about more air flow?? How is the stock sensor restrictive other than the screen?? Do the performance air flow sensors actually comunicate differently with he car's computer??? - that's the biggest of the questions. Are there negeative affects to look out for?? Thanks.

A note on the NY attack. I can't believe Peter Jennings, Katie Couric, Chris Matthews, and others in the media were harping about where the president and his plane are as thousands die and the president's safety is itself in question. Bryant Gumble was asking what the billions spent on the war would do to social security?? I'm not making this up! This is irrelevant and does our country no good. These people will stop at nothing to grind a political axe - even using the most unbelievable of human tragedies to make political noise. Sorry about the off topic stuff, but I think in light of what has happened it is justified, and this occurance in our media is upsetting. Can these people EVER pull together?? I guess not.

pat

Why do I get the feeling that if I said the sun is shining, some of you would jump all over me and insist that it is pitch dark outside? :-)

Heyjewel, we seem to have a lot of similarities in the way we grew up and the way we view things today. I too grew up amidst bomb shelters (under my home and in my school), air raid drills, then was very anti-Nixon, I lost friends in the Viet Nam war and have spent the last 20 years of my life working in civil service in support of the United States Navy. And as you say, I also am more afraid today than I ever was as a child in the late 50's when I dreamed nearly every night of bombs falling out of the sky on me and my family.

Ronniepooh, I am mystified by your hostility towards my post. I told you folks the other day that I work at the largest naval facility in the world. I am intensely aware of what has happened and what is swirling around me personally as we remain on highest alert, ready to do whatever it takes to "support the warfighter" which is and always has been the stated mission of the agency for which I work. I personally will be directly involved in supporting whatever military actions are to come, for as long as it takes for our country to accomplish the goals that will be defined, just as I was during Desert Storm. And I am and will be proud to do whatever I can to support the mission.

I know what has happened, I know there are no easy or quick answers, and I know that our way of life has probably been forever altered in many, many ways. And I too am very angry and very hurt.

In my opinion, racial profiling is not the way to go. That is not to say that profiling shouldn't be done, however. You can far more successfully profile on things like the fact that it has been reported that these hijackers paid cash for one way tickets. They were all of a certain age group. What was their previous flight history. Perhaps nationality should be an additional element. It seems to me that these kinds of factors assessed together are far more likely to raise appropriate scrutiny than simply looking at race and/or religion. I'm not trying to be "politically correct", I'm just saying what makes sense to me. What sense would it make to deter or in any way impede a Muslim who was born here, lived and worked productively as an American citizen his or her entire life, never been out of the country who purchases a ticket from Boston to LA for no other reason than his or her religion? Personally, I have a huge problem with that. I don't see how that is going to protect me or anyone else in any way whatsoever.

But whatever. My personal feelings aside, Town Hall's clearly stated policy says "we do not tolerate harassment, or denigration based on age, gender, race, religion, national origin, sexual orientation or disability."

Last time I said something in here about the Membership Agreement, some of you got all upset. Well, I'm sorry if my trying to explain parts of it upsets some of you, but the fact is that my job here in Town Hall is to ensure compliance with the terms to which you all agreed when you joined Town Hall. I don't mean to "threaten" in any way - I'm just trying to help you understand the place from which I must operate and it sure would be nice if some of you would try to understand that there is nothing personal going on here.

I hope I am making sense.

Pat
Host
Sedans Message Board

buckwheat

While I am not a fan of Pats' fundamental approach to monitioring this and other topics on the Sedans Board (heavy handed) I don't think an overt slight on her patriotism regarding the events of this past week serves any legitimate purpose. Aside from that I am listening!

karzz

It is interesting to see that Ford, GM, and DaimlerChrysler have all donated quickly and generously to the relief effort while some other companies are absent.

Ford donated money to the Red Cross, Excursions to the New York Fire Department, emergency response teams, 48,000 square feet of office space, organizing blood drives and matching employee contributions.

A search of web sites and press releases seems to indicate that it is business as usual at Toyota and Honda. The only press release from Toyota shows more concern about the possibility of parts shortages than anything else. No mention about the tragedy on either of their web sites.

pat

Cb44 said "Support like Ford" and quoted the article here: BMW Group Pledges Aid for Relief Efforts.

(I'm sorry cb44 - and everyone else - but we cannot quote copyrighted material here. However, links to such material are always welcome.)

Pat
Host
Sedans Message Board

koury

For those who feel we should resist retaliation - GET YOUR HEAD OUT OF THE SAND! Look, I'm an American, born and raised, and I'm half Arab - usually more sympathetic to what I perceive a more biased US against Arab countries. But this is war, and I feel violated by people may in some way be realted to me. May I remind you of the images of men, women and children dancing in the streets, celebrating the death and destruction of innocent lives. And did anyone else see the clips of 8,9, and 10 year old boys training to be the next band of terrorists? These kids are learning one thing, and one thing only - kill US citizens. They'll never know anything else in their lives. They must be stopped now, and anything short of a full retaliatiory offensive would be a crime. Is it any wonder these terrorist acts have gotten progressively worse? We've been poked in the sides for years, and all we can do is sit around and discuss the politically correct response. Sure, we throw a missle or two around to show we "mean business". We've helped create this mess by not doing what we should have done years ago. And if innocent civilians in the middle east end up as casualties, so be it. Horrible to say, but there is no other answer. One other point - we finally have a President (what a wasted 8 previous years) that is not afraid to do what should have been done back in 1993 when the first attempt at the WTC failed. The button should have been pushed then. Shame on us for letting it get this far.

ezaircon4jc

Have any of you noticed a squeaky seat? Mine starts after about 40 minutes of driving. It seems to be getting progressively worse. Of course the dealer can't duplicate!

packv12

I do not often post on this board, but I often read with interest the posts here two to three times a day. I’ve learned a lot about the LS and about the posters on this board. I, too, have had much difficulty dealing with the events of September 11 and their aftermath. I share the sorrow and bewilderment of our Great Nation while we attempt and struggle to continue our lives and come to some sort of meaning of this terrible act of war.

I have vague memories of the duck and cover drills in the ‘60s, but I think that they were more closely related to the Cuban Missile Crisis rather then the Soviet threat. I remember being indoctrinated that all Soviets were our enemy and intended to cause out country great harm and eliminate out Republic. They were tangible enemies, with leaders, military and people that we could focus our hatred onto.

We face a new enemy now. Many would place their hatred upon all Middle-Eastern people, or upon one religion as a scapegoat. They cannot and will not fathom the possibility that many, many people of these descents are not accomplices nor in sympathy to some cause, but must suffer in the hands of some misguided sense of Patriotism directed against a whole segment of people. The new direction of this “Patriotism” seems to run counter to everything our country was based on. More like the Japanese during WWII or the Germans during WWI, rather then the melting pot that America has become.

A lot of people seem to think that since we are America, no harm should come to us no matter where we are. There are many upset by the bombings of the African Embassies, which they should be, but that doesn’t mean that the risks were reduced because they were on American soil. The USS Cole was in an area known for terrorist activity; so all precautions should have been taken. I regret all of the loss of life in all three of these situations, but these are known areas of dispute amongst out enemies.

We must realize that Terrorism is a form of warfare! This has been our first strike by a foreign entity on out soil. Too long there has been a belief that it couldn’t happen to us, because we are secure due to our great distance from our enemies. We have always been targets, but never before has there been bloody destruction upon our shores, especially so easily perpetuated! How sloppy has security become in America that four Airplanes could be hijacked within less than an hour?

I don’t need to hear that there are countries out there that hate our country, which has always been the case. Because someone is retired from some military Service, means nothing to me, they have NO inherent insight into any situation. To combine or lump any group of persons together speaks volumes to me, it smacks of racism and of dogmatic thinking.

Although, I must admit, the plan has some merits. We could allow Afro-American to move out of the inner city. Place arm bans on all Muslim or Islamic peoples and move them into the Ghettos of America. We would have better control of the people because they would be easily identified. We could actually “See these people are who are trying to annihilate us.” Let us forget the Democratic ideals and stir up Totalitarian Fervor. Let us strip the Constitution and the Bill of Rights so that we can protect ourselves in some notion of freedom, although it will be far removed from anything we have known in the past, at least a few will feel secure.

Future events will prove very difficult for our Nation and I’m dubious about people attempting to spew their political beliefs upon us as though they are Gospel Truth. Perhaps the dogma sounds safe and secure, but what about the price that is involved?

I don’t understand how Pat became the enemy in all of these posts, she is simply stating that there are “Terms of Membership” that must be followed. She has only pointed that there cannot be any discrimination because of race, creed or color. Perhaps the dogmatic amongst us will change the rules once they come into power, but for now, those are the rules!

karzz

Thanks I guess you could not find anything from Honda or Toyota either. Its a shame they seem to be AWOL. I hope they will be pressured in to doing something soon, their silence is deafening.

Kudos to those companies who are providing significant support and resources including manpower and office space, vehicles and of course financial support.

http://www.detnews.com/2001/autos/0109/16/-293505.htm

markls8

This tragedy is, to date, the largest act of terrorism against not only American people but also the largest against Canadian and British people as well. Yes, I am Canadian, but above all I am a citizen of the global community of man.
No established religion (Islam, Roman Catholic, Protestant, or other) on this planet teaches that killing your fellow man is acceptable. It is fundamentalist factions of these religions which splinter off and conduct such activities on their own.
Objectivity is difficult to maintain under the present tragic circumstances, however absolute objectivity is essential if correct decisions are to be made. I believe it is imperative at such a critical juncture that we repudiate our impulses and step back and examine these circumstances with logic, not emotion.
We have so far ignored the fact that the horrible pain and anguish we all feel today has been felt by the Arab peoples on an almost daily basis for decades. Let's also not ignore that this attack is far from being the "First Blood" that the media and politicians would prefer us to believe. What has changed now is that the US has had the luxury of wageing war on foreign soil, which has previously removed the general population from war's harsh realities. Arabs do not have the massive military might of the US and thus desperately resort to their only effective weapon of war - terrorism.
The Arabs' principle objection to the United States is their massive financial and military support of the Israelis in the Arab/Israeli war. If we could eliminate or reduce this underlying motivator mightn't we defuse this thing sooner?
Those who perished on September 11 were innocent victims of their own government's policies as well as victims of a terrorist attack. For us to turn around now and make the citizens of Afghanistan victims of their government's policies is unnecessary, illogical and serves only to perpetuate the ongoing carnage. It is particularly inappropriate action for an intellectually wealthy and just nation such as the United States which would condemn such actions if taken by another country. Might DOES NOT make right.
One of the greatest thinkers of the last century (Albert Einstein) made his greatest discoveries when he objectively stood back and recognized that one's point of view (relativity) was the absolute essence of interpreting an event.
Let's not let ourselves be lured too quickly into the folly of war.
God bless America.

bolivar

My humble opinion, and my fear, is the airplane-into-a-building has been done. It's over. But our nearsighted leaders will focus on the past errors here and not widen their views.

Chemical or biological is probably coming next. It was done in Japan by a cult, injuring hundreds, with badly constructed chemicals and a delivery system of breaking bottles in the trains.

The people we are at war with have shown they have better cababilities than those used in Japan.

keyrow

Packv12: you said, "Because someone is retired from some military Service, means nothing to me, they have NO inherent insight into any situation." Really? Why do so many of the news organizations have ex-CIA/FBI/Congressional Intelligence Committee members giving their expert opinions if they truly have no "insight" And what if Mark suddenly retired from FoMoCo would his expertice on transmissions suddenly evaporate? Ought we totally ignore his opinions just because he is no longer actively involved? Me, myself and I believe just the opposite.

Markls8: "We have so far ignored the fact that the horrible pain and anguish we all feel today has been felt by the Arab peoples on an almost daily basis for decades." I really do not think so. Being ex-military, and therefore not qualified to comment according to some, I have been in Beirut and Israel and have personally seen the terrible consequences of actual warfare. Most Middle East Arabs I have spoken with readily admit they want to see the total elimination of the state of Israel. "They" say they want displaced Palestinians to be able to return to their homeland but would deny Jews the same. Please remember that both Arabs and Jews have suffered greatly in this centuries old conflict. I do not believe it is wrong for the US to suppport Israel's self defense from being obliterated by its neighbors. There may be a peace in that part of the world someday, but it will not be before parents stop teaching their children hatred and glorifying suicide bombings.

My $0.02.

garnes

Markls8 - PLEASE be careful with the language. Fundamentalist as it applies to the people responsible for the NY bombing has absolutely NO application to Christian denominations. Moreover, they are not "factions" either.

I would not describe myself as a fundamentalist, but I probably would not feel terribly out of place in one of their Sunday services. These "factions" account for a large percentage of our population - especially the south.

I'm sure you did not mean anything this way, but words mean things, and a lot of others read this board. An error that equates (through a misuse or misunderstanding of a word) a large number of God fearing Christians with the mind-set of those that just killed thousands of people is dangerous itself. I really really hope that this is just an error of words and you don't actually believe the thousands if not millions of US citizens that would describe themselves as fundamentalist could do this.

Hence the Town Hall policies I guess.

stanfree

I just return from a 1600 mile roundtrip ride from NJ to Chicago due to not being able or wanting to fly. I was looking over the post and read one about racial profiling people in airports. Being a young African-American driving a "nice" car or going into a department store and being "profiled" this is not the answer. There are over 5 million Arabs in this country who are just as outraged as we are. Unless you experienced this humiliating practice you can never understood the hurt this can cause.

On a lighter note, I got a chance to really relax while driving to Chicago in my LS. There is nothing like cruising down the highway at 80mph to release some stress

Stan

cdnpinhead

has had more to say about last Tuesday than any of the other Edmunds forums that I inhabit. Excellent! Maybe we're more attuned to news & politics, or maybe we've just been around longer.

That said, I've got a bit of input on the actual car topic. I pulled into a gas station last week and was questioned by an adjacent customer. "How many reliability issues have you had?", he asked. I told him that major issues were nil and that all I had to complain about were "first-year" junk problems like the rear window thing, plastic stuff falling off in various places, and pretty lousy paint quality for a car at this price point. Running gear -- great. No problems.

Noticed on the way out of the station that he owned an Audi A4. I've been investigating Audi lately, and have decided that, while they're great cars if someone else is paying for them, or if they're leased, if you want to actually buy a car and use it for 4 - 8 years, an Audi isn't a good idea. This Audi guy was looking at LS's. All is not lost.

As a Canadian, my heart goes out to all of you who have had to deal with the situation dealt us by "the gentlemen from the mideast with an alternate lifestyle" (this is possibly a phrase which will pass Pat's review process) who did this.

God bless.

airwolf1000

Hi Ronnie, Just wanted to let you know I have always valued your comments on this board. Now while I agree with most of what you are saying including the apparent dislike for Americans by Arabs, Don't forget who carried out the previous terrorist attack. Timothy McVeigh. A Full blooded American who had served in our military. Anyone is capable regardless of race, etc..,etc.

The problem is we as a human race need to have tolerance for each others beliefs. The fact of the matter is we don't. How do we get all, people or even us to tolerate our differences. How do we get the militaristic tendencies out. While I think testosterone plays a role regarding our agression so does our environment. Kids raised to use guns and taught to hate another group like some terrorists groups do. Pretty similar to what I am sure kids of the KKK come out like, and we have seen the results of that, lynchings, draggins (Most Recently). It does not matter how people smell or how they dress or anything. People use these as excuses to lower that persons status and justify their reasoning for imposing some punishment.

I hope I have somewhat shown you that Americans as is any people are capable of wrong. What we need to do is ensure all kids and people are brought up in a caring environment, where they are taught respect for one another. And we need to do that here in America too. All these attacks only happen because of dislike, or Hatred developed by people for religious or whatever other reasons.

We need to eradicate this, but is war the answer? Two wrongs does not make a right. Also, I am doubting if Bin Laden did it since he has so emphatically denied it. While he has expressed no sympathy for these actions, I do not think he would lie to save himself, after all he is proud of his accomplishments, however despicable they may be. I think the U.S. is using this to get him. We need more information, more proof. Prime suspect is not enough. Even in an American Court "Beyond a Reasonable Doubt". Now once we know we do need those people to be brought to JUSTICE.

Don't Flame me for my opinion on this issue, at best tolerate it. After all we all have one common bond on this board, and have for a few years. And don't forget I Bought a Lincoln a Car known for "American Luxury" and I am proud of that.

airwolf1000

I did not go far enough and notice that LS1BMW had already posted a response similar to what I just posted regarding McVeigh... I know it must sound redundant. However it is good that a Texan and a Californian can agree!

Regards
Airwolf

alphanstein

Again, thanks packv for your comments. And like Stanfree, until you have experienced racial profiling and the reprocutions of it, you should hesitate to openly comment on it's use. Having grown up in inner city LA, I can tell you one of the reasons that inner city blacks are so rebellious to law inforcement is a result of racial profiling, and it is also a result of things like the King beating, Watts Riots, and others.

Racial profiling will only serve to alienate our Arab-American brethren, and possibly lead them to even support negative activities against law enforcement and heaven forbid, even support terriorist activities. We have a free democratic society and we cannot put our biases or fears in front of our constitutional rights.

Lastly, while I know my post as well as many others is off topic, I have to agree with Pat, she is doing her job. But I want to thank her for allowing us to express our opinions and concerns. I have served in the Army as well, been to the Gulf War, have many Arab-American freinds and know that having been there, most of them do not hate America. Many of them expressed a desire to achieve our way of life, the land of opportunity.

netmogul

ezaircon4jc,

I'll go out on a limb here. A few months ago I had a creaking sound coming from the seat area. After about six months, it began to happen when I breathed, cornered, sped up, slowed down -- basically all the time. Dealer couldn't find it, but the seat belt buckle bolt was the culprit.

So, out comes the Lincoln-approved WD-40 (with "lubricating straw attachment"(tm)), and no more creaking!

Murphy being the swell guy he is, once this annoyance was fixed, he birthed a new rattle behind the stereo... Ye gads!

-Matt

ezaircon4jc

Mine comes from my left shoulder blade area. Is that where your squeak was? Once it starts it is VERY annoying!

ls1bmw0

Mike,

I don't think WD-40 will take care of your squeak if it's from your left shoulder area. Perhaps orthroscopic surgery would be better!

I'll have to try the WD-40 treatment on the seat belt bolt on the transmission tunnel. I have a creaking sound too from the driver's seat and couldn't figure out where it was coming from. I just figured I had stressed out the weight capacity on it from my, umm...., plus-size frame

klarson1

What a terrible thing happened in America last week. I don't think I will ever forget the chills of
non-belief that over took me.

May God Bless America.

Hopefully many here will realize the impact of the words we speak have on others.

If Racial Profiling is done with hatred for the color of one's skin, or the religion they practice, or
the country of origin, or the sexual orientation of the person, then it's bad..

But if a security guard looks more closely at a young mid-eastern man with a beard and a shaving kit is that bad?

If a security guard looks more closely at a Jewish grandmother from Boca Raton with a handbag
containing razor blades inbedded in plastic is that bad?

If a security guard looks more closely at an Irish man with a bag of fertilizer is that bad?

If a security guard looks more closely at a gay man from SF with an inflatable handgun is that bad? (ok that's a stretch)

Hopefully we all will realize that it's not what we look like that matters... it's what our actions
dictate that defines us all...

Kevin

Who can't wait to get back to complaining about the "little things"

pat

Today was clearly a day in which America tried to get back to "normal", although I think we probably all agree that "normal" will never be normal again.

The stock market reopened. It experienced a predictable dive, but the story will be told over the next few weeks, not today alone. The major networks went back to their normal programming of silly court shows and soap operas. And *commercials*!! There is a very large segment of our society taking a huge financial hit over the events of last week and the major television networks are right up there in all of the non-stop, non-commercial-sponsored coverage they have provided. While I think they all have gone way overboard with the incessant images of the planes hitting the WTC, I do have to respect that everything they have done they have done without anyone paying the bills. Major league baseball has resumed and I have just watched a very poignant opening to the Braves vs. the Phillies game which had me in tears (but they sang God Bless America and the National Anthem way too fast!!).

Town Hall as a whole, and the Sedans Message Board in particular seem to have resumed at least a near-normal level of posting. And most folks are now resuming their conversations about cars.

I have no intention whatsoever - which every one of you can see by what has gone on in here over the last week - of stifling any polite, civil and respectful conversation about what has happened and what is to come.

I do want everyone to keep in mind that Town Hall is in no way a political board, however, and please, please leave your controversial political statements at the door.

None of us think this is over, and all of us realize there is a lot more to come. But maybe we should follow the example of the rest of the country today and get back to our stated purpose - discussing the Lincoln LS.

I want to thank everyone here for some very provocative conversation and look forward to getting back to some semblance of a conversation that is appropriate for our venue.

Pat
Host
Sedans Message Board

scottc8

Most of us will agree that Lincoln is being a bit optimistic when it comes to three adults riding in the back seat of the LS. But has anyone noticed the new Passats and Audis with THREE headrests in the back? Talk about wishful thinking. Next time you get behind one, try to picture three people sitting in front of those headrests. Makes my shoulders hurt just thinking about it.

netmogul

Nah -- near the transmission tunnel. I do have a rattle somewhere deep inside the B-Pillar, but I suspect that's a different animal than what you're seeing. :-)

stanny1

Mike - I can't hear any rattles because of the Borla, especially near 3800 rpm. Does your V-6 resonate at that rpm also?

ezaircon4jc

Yes it does! It either gets mellower as it "burns in" or I'm just getting used to it! The sound really does seem to be a bit mellower than when we first installed it. The 1800 RPM drone seems better too.

nosho

you are correct in that it is all about air flow. The less restrictive the air path, the more power the engine will have.

Generally, the MAF is the last component to replace since other components over-shadow it in terms of air flow (the exhaust system in particular).

The after market MAFs have a larger diameter air path which provides for easier flowing air. As such, the engine doesn't have to work as hard to pull air in. But an easy breathing air box is necessary (often ram-air horn assemblies are used).

Similar electrical characteristics are necessary for optimal engine acceleration performance. The after market people generally do a good job of matching to the OEM units.

Bottom line, replacing the exhaust system will provide a bigger boost. Replacing the air box will probably provide a bigger boost than replacing the MAF alone.

fantom

How are you enjoying your new Borla, Stan? Are you noticing much improvement in performance and/or economy?

This talk of the sound resonating so much it masks rattles, and Mike mentioning a "drone" is disconcerting. My mother-in-law insists on a quiet ride.

The tri-flow system I have did indeed mellow with age. Then again so did I.

stanny1

After about a month with "The Borla", I think Alex Borla did a great job in matching the car/engine to the exhaust system. At idle, there is a noticeable "burble". I don't recall an 1800 rpm "resonance" as Mike mentions, but I'm going to check this out later this morning. Mike has the V-6 Auto and I have the Manual, so my unique (crazy) shifting pattern makes different noises at different load points than when one leaves the Auto in Drive. For instance, the Manual Borla makes more noise "off the line" than the Auto because the Manual has to have a larger throttle opening to launch with my anemic 3:07 than the Auto's 3:58. While the V-6 peak resonance is at 3800 rpm, I may not reach that during my common shift, and 3800 rpm is about 95 mph in fifth, so freeway cruising is very quiet as is just "tooling around". The "loud pedal" is really under my control. If I shift at above 4000, I will get the car to Bark every time. If I drive by some "low and slow" modified Civic/Integra/Eclipse on the freeway, a quick downshift to fourth will put me to about 3500 and then a slight application of the loud pedal will usually cause the driver to take notice. Like "that's a Lincoln???" look? Or maybe just "What the .....?".
When Mike had the prototype Magnaflow, I took a listen and concluded that no mother would like it. It was louder inside the car than outside. The Borla is more polite, and you can hear it inside at 3800 when the X-pipe comes on peak, but the driver is really in control. If you want noise, you know how to get it. But if you drive sanely, it will burble and purr.
Results? Gas mileage is down to about 14 from about 19. Why? I like to hear the system. I'm in the puppy love stage. I tend to rev it a little at stop lights. Rev over 3800 at shifts. Drive a little more aggressively. Hey, it's the only fun I have. I work 80 hours a week in real estate. My car is my diversion.
In actuality, I think the problem now is intake restriction. I have not opened up the air box. So this weekend I'm going to do the quick and dirty and take a hole saw to the bottom part of the air box. There are holes in the sheet metal under the air box bottom. They will be "extended" thru the black plastic bottom. Until I get the new part# for the 2002 air box bottom, or some enterprising soul develops an aftermarket cold air system, this will have to do. But anything will help.
I would like to see a dyno test on the V-6 with Borla. The V-6 should benefit more than the V-8, which has larger stock pipes to begin with.

fantom

Umm, gas mileage down to 14. Me suspects a little more than some stoplight revs and an occasional down shift. Thanks for the fine report, Stan.

One thing the last week taught me is to take some pleasure whenever possible. The LS is one pleasure and looks like a Borla will be another.

I'm looking forward to both a Borla and a 2002 air box bottom on my '01 V-6 automatic, which I agree should help the 6 more than the 8. In fact, it should put the older V-6s on par with the higher HP 2002 model.

Plan to do it after MANIA II next month as a Chistmas gift to myself.

garnes

nosho - thanks. I did end up going to granatellimotorsports.com and I guess those mass air flow sensors do communicate differently with the computer as well. I am going to try this on my Aurora unless any of you guys knows of some problems. Brian seemed to confirm the claimed improvements - both on the dyno and experienced performance.

I hope you guys don't mind me being a GM guy here, but the info here is really good. I hope to go to a dyno and test my air box mods in the future. I'll let you know.

Stanny1 - thanks for the report. The cat-back sounds great. I have a lead on one for my car. It will be a custom job by Corsa because nobody I know of makes one for my car. For what it's worth, i opened up my box much like what you described. Now I have a big hole in the box bottom for way more air. It's cool air too. I really think it is better - especially when punching it at 30, 40 or 50. Maybe it is in my head. The dyno knows though. You may really like the throaty induction sound too.

ezaircon4jc

Stan, that big hole is really under the snorkel. That is why I cut the hole in the snoekel and routed the new hose to another hole I "created" in that plastic piece just to the left of the left foglight, behind the "grille". It looks like the piece is supposed to direct air to the radiator. Generally I like what LS1bmw0 did, but I already glued the hose into the snorkel.

fantom: That 1800rpm drone isn't really a drone. It's kind of a resonance at a steady 50mph in 5th. If mother-in-law wants quiet she probably won't like the Borla. OTOH, if her hearing is starting to go.......

Mike, FINALLY getting to work airplanes again :~)

stanny1

Thanks, Mike. It looks like I'll have to do some experimenting. I may just have to add some holes somewhere. I forgot to mention in my last post that the car does seem faster and the rpms don't seem to drop as fast as I shift. Actually, this makes for a faster and smoother shift.
For some reason, LM decided to gift our V-6's with smaller stock pipes than the V-8. I measured the stock pipes at 1.5". The Borlas are 2.25". Also, the pipe bends are larger radius and less "crimped". I think someone said they were "mandrel bent". It is interesting that the V-6 and V-8 Borla systems are identical. Evidently, the pipes from the exhaust manifolds to the cats are the same on the V-6 and V-8 and so are the exit pipes from the cats to the start of the exhaust system. Then on the V-6, there is this ridiculous reduction in size immediately to 1.5", whereas the stock V-8 system continues on to perhaps 2"-2.25". Alex Borla gave everyone the 2.25" so the V-6 really picks up on flow. I'm sure the V-8 enjoys some increase as well. All that big stainless steel pipe also looks good, and Borla guarantees the system for a million miles.
The engineers at LM said that the increase of 10hp for 2002 V-6 models is solely attributable to a different lower air box with additional snorkel area and just lower restriction mufflers. The Borla does more than just lower restriction mufflers. The replacement of the two separate stock resonators with the more complex "X-Pipe", the larger diameter pipe with less resrictive bends, and the Borla high-flow mufflers has got to be better than even the 2002 lower restriction stock muffler set-up. The engine is probably 95% optimized. It's the pumping losses that are the obvious target on newer cars. I think that is the reason supercharging is so hot now. Every other system on the car is so efficient that adding forced air yields the best bang for the buck.
My lease is up in two years. Possibly, my Borla will fit the 2003 and I'll put the stock system back on the car at trade-in time. It is really simple to install, and even easier to remove in one piece (now don't get any ideas when you see a Borlaed LS sitting in the parking lot!)

alphanstein

Hey Mike and Stan, I passed by the San Diego sports arena and on the backside they have some lines painted and cones setup on two different tracks. Either of you know what is going on there and if we can go play?

Jeff

stanny1

Hmmm...that should be Kurtz Street. I'll be in the Point Loma area in a couple of days and I will scope it out. Sorry I had to work on the "Julian Run" Saturday. Sounded like a real blast.

garnes

Stanny1 - thanks for the additional info. It's really interesting. And yeah, the stock V6 exhaust sounds like there is more room for improvement. My understanding is that they like to choke things down to keep the exit velocity high thus minimizing any resonations - got to keep a Lincoln quiet. The induction is choked down too for the same reason I think. Because they are so bottled up, there seems to be a lot of untapped potential in these luxury sport cars.

So, I take it nobody has a reservation about the aftermarket mass air flow sensors?