Lincoln LS

scottc8

Brian's latest report mentioned Mobil going from 92 to 91. We beat octane requirements to death here a few months ago, and I don't want to revive that topic, but I do wonder about what we're actually buying. In Colorado, 91 is widely available. On a recent trip I ran quite a bit of 92 in Arizona, and a couple tanks of 90 in New Mexico. Did not notice any performance or economy difference, nor did I expect to. But I wonder what the industry standard tolerance is on gasoline octane rating. Is 91 octane gas supposed to be at least 91, or is it 91 +/- one point, 1/2 point, or ??? Don't get me wrong; I'm not worried about being "cheated" at the gas pump. But if one is sweating every detail, as Brian obviously is, and octane is a factor in the tests, do we really know what gas is in the station's tanks on a given day? Any petroleum industry experts lurking about?

leadfoot4

Here in western New York, the Mobil "Premium" that is sold has an octane rating of 93. Or, at least that's what the pump says it is

lolaj42

I don't want to be mistaken for an expert here by any means. I WAS a test engineer for a gas turbine engine company about 10 years ago. Gas turbines are a completely different animal from an internal combustion engine. That said, I concur with you in that the dynomometer measures torque, and horsepower is then a calculated/converted parameter.

Here's a link that you may find useful:

http://www.howstuffworks.com/horsepower1.htm

Octane - is the degree to which fuel resists detonation (spontaneous/rapid combustion of the complete fuel/air mixture in the cylinder - aka knock). The higher the octane number, the greater the resistance to detonation (or, the more gradual and uniform the fuel/air mixture burns in the cylinder). The LS has a knock sensor that will automatically retard spark if knock is detected. When doing a dyno run, it would be better to eliminate this source of variability when assessing the impact of another component on overall engine performance.

here's another link discussing octane:

http://www.howstuffworks.com/question90.htm

slowdriver

In the greater Los Angeles area, I noticed that both Chevron and Unocal 76 have gone to 91 octane from 92. Now I go to Mobil for 92 and at one Mobil station, the price for 92 is lower than the competition's 91.

My LS's gas mileage is slightly better with 92.

stanny1

This stuff we call gas in California is all supposed to be 91 octane statewide. I think the old stickers are still on a lot of pumps. Here in San Diego, all the fuel comes down from Los Angeles in two pipes. Additives for the different brands are added locally, but I don't think they can change the octane here.

desertguy

Ever notice how you guys are getting ripped on price in San Diego? Every time I go to visit my Dad I make sure I have a full tank so I can get back without buying any down there. That pipeline from LA must really be expensive.

nosho

I'm no expert on dyno's either, but as I understand it, the dyno does not measure torque but instead measure force acting on the roller. The wheel is in contact with a roller of some mass. The roller surface changes speed with time. The delta-v versus delta-t is used to determine the force acting on the roller which is used to calculate HP (work being a force acting over time). Wheel drive shaft torque at the torque converter is then derived from the HP measurement, which is effected by the wheel size.

brunobus

If you look closely at the stickers on the gas pumps, you will see that it says that the octane rating is a minimum octane rating, so according to the sticker it could be whatever the octane is listed or higher.

I called the head of the Colorado State Oil Inspection and he says that when they test a gas stations' octane level, it needs to be dead on. Of course, even if they do allow some unwritten discrepency, he has to quote the regulations and I'm sure they state that octane levels must be exactly as advertised.

I also tried calling one of our customers (a major oil company) to find out what their specs are and the guy that I need to talk to will be out till tomorrow, so I will follow up then.

I do know, however, that the mid-grade fuel is simply a blend of the high-grade (premium) and the low-grade (regular unld) when a site blends at the gas pump (I think that they also only keep a high and low at the terminals and blend the mid-grade when filling the tanker truck, but I will confirm this tomorrow as well.) If they are blending at the pump (cheaper installation costs since you only have 2 tanks in the ground instead of 3 and is pretty the standard for all new locations), different companies use different blend percentages.

In Colorado, we mainly have 3 different octane levels, 85, 87 and 91 because of our altitude (less oxygen, less chance of knock) compared to the 87, 89 and 91 that is usual for other parts of the country. Typically, the blend percentages low/high at the pump are set to 60/40, 65/35 or 66 2/3 / 33 1/3 which results in a blended octane of 87.4, 87.1 and 87.0 respectively assuming that the high and low are exactly 91 and 85. Given these calculations, the statement that I received from the inspector cannot be correct unless their testing equipment rounds to the nearest whole number. If that is in fact true, then there is a -.5/+.4 tolerance which amounts to about a 0.5%.

A smart business person would of course try to go the 66 2/3 / 33 1/3 route because then the consumer would be getting more regular and less premium and still meet to correct octane levels, but the most common ones are 65/35 or 60/40 (BTW, the major oil company that I will be calling uses a 65/35 blend at the pumps when blending there.)

So, Scott, for someone who is in the industry, I so far have not been able to get an exact answer to your question, but maybe the fuel terminal person will enlighten me. Until then, I would feel pretty confident in the +/- 0.5%.

Bruno

garnes

Brian, no egg. Your work has been invaluable. You are doing stuff the rest of us only dream about trying. Thanks for everything.

In light of your revisions, do you think the K&N claims of 2 to 4% power increase for just the replacement filter are close/closer to reality??

I understand that a lot of this assumes a decent stock air induction at least. My wifes Impala air box is so bad you would not believe it. All the dirt ends up on a few square inches of filter. All I expect with the K&N is longer service between cleaning and a tiny bit more power. I think if you are really utilizing most of the filter area, then the gains may be closer to what K&N claims.

netmogul

For whatever reason, the price of gas always seems to be higher when you're close to a pipeline. It's like that here in the Old North State, too. The closer you creep to the pipeline terminal, the higher the price creeps.

Go figure. :-)

brunobus

Well, my curiosity got the better of me so I had to start doing some research. The Colorado regulations (and most other states it seems) list an ASTM D-4814 guideline for the method used to calculate octane level. After going to the ASTM website I found the following statement:

Specification D4814-01 Standard Specification for Automotive Spark-Ignition Engine Fuel

1.7 The following applies to all specified limits in this standard: For purposes of determining conformance with these specifications, an observed value or a calculated value shall be rounded "to the nearest unit" in the right-most significant digit used in expressing the specification limit, in accordance with the rounding method of Practice E 29. The use of a trailing decimal point in a limit indicates that the digit preceding the decimal point is a significant digit.

so my assumption that they are rounding to the nearest unit is correct, therefore, -0.5/+0.49 is how close an advertised octane level needs to be or about 0.5%.

But, I also found this statement for the Colorado state regs:

(6) In no case shall motor fuel of advertised trademark quality be sold or offered for sale, unless the octane number by the American Society for Testing and Materials research method will not be less than one and five-tenths octane number of that specified by the owner of said trademark or trade name.

Although, one might read this as +/- 1.5 octane, I think it is really talking about a companies' trade name being within 1.5 octane no matter where you purchase it, i.e. if a company calls their fuel "Super Great Supreme 92" then no matter where they sell it in the state, it has to be within 1.5 octane of everywhere else that they sell it in the state and/or within 1.5 octane of 92.

Gotta love that legalese.

Bruno

stanny1

We just finished an appeal to the US Supreme Court on an anti-trust suit for the incredible price differential between LA and San Diego gas prices. The Court refused to find collusion, etc.
But nothing explains why our prices are so much higher except they get away with it. I get sick when I see what gas is in Bakersfield.

ls1bmw0

I still think K&N's claim may be a bit optimistic. At 207 rear-wheel hp that would mean an increase of between 4-8 hp. I honestly don't think the stock filter is that restrictive to warrant that much of an decrease over the K&N. 1-2% sounds more reasonable to me, and probably more on the 1% side.

Like you, the main reason I got the K&N was to reuse it instead of tossing it.

scottc8

Very impressive homework. Thanks for shedding a lot of light on what looks like a pretty big area.

slunar

Gas: would you believe that given the same brand, there are currently 20 cent differences in price across the tiny state of CT. The current highest prices are in near the ports with the storage terminals that bring in the gasoline on barges from NJ, while the lowest prices seem to be the locations that have the longest drive from the port / terminal to the gas station, figure that one out!

Sales drop: Ford's total vehicle sales were down for August, don't remember the exact % but I belive that cars were down 16% and trucks / SUV's down around 7%. Most people I run into have no idea what a Lincoln LS is. When the first see my LS they are impressed, until I tell them that it's a Lincoln which of course to the local auto snobs makes it just an old man's Ford. Lincoln has a bad connotation around here, I guess the result of too many years of building living rooms with 4 tires & a steering wheel. BMW sales are still going up in spite of the down stock market. Never ceases to amaze me what people I know will pay for beat up high mileage BMW's & Mercedes. One friend bought a really beat E class and then over the next 6 months dropped close to $10K getting all the broken things on it fixed. I tried to point out that he could have had a new LS for less money, but of course he could only repeat the "high resale value" Mercedes mantra. Another friend was really proud of the Volvo S70 he just got, doing everything buy outright saying how much better it is than my lowly Lincoln. I attempted to burst his bubble by telling him that Volvo was just another Ford, but he outright told me I was full of it that Volvo was not owned by Ford. I told him to go look it up & get back to me, which he still hasn't done after 2 weeks.

akirby

I don't think you can measure HP - you can only measure torque. It takes torque to move the roller and I think that's what is measured. The sensor on the engine measures RPM and calculates the HP for a given torque measurement. There is no unit of measurement for HP - only a calculation using torque and rpms.

jnowski

Mass, velocity and time will also yield HP. Also, 1HP equals 746 Watts, therefore the unit of measure for HP can be expressed as Watts (or kilowatts).

jnowski

The Dynojet dynomometer under discussion is an inertial mass based measurement tool relying on mass/speed (or distance) vs. time. However there is another, better, class of dynomometer which does rely on the instantaneous measurement of torque vs. RPM via a load cell and tachometer. This is the type of dynomometer most used by engine manufacturers because it allows constant speed and long term run time measurements of the engine under test to be made. It's also the type of dynomometer that I often use to measure electric motor/drive performanc.

price8

For weeks now I've been contemplating whether or not I should be the Lincoln LS. I can't deny that it is a good looking car, cause it is. But I don't quite feel that it is worth 50k(Canadian). When I sat in the front seat, I somewhat expected more. Have you ever sat in the driver seat of a Mercedes or even the Avalon? Sitting in the Avalon looks like it should cost alot more. The digital displays and what now are very impressive looking and useful to the driver. I find the LS dashboard plain looking and the trunk and glove box space is a bit insufficient, space-wise, for me.
The drive however is remarkably smooth. Smoother than most cars I've test driven, but is it worth 50k? I've always liked the way the European and Japanese engineers find ways of getting 220HP out of a 3.0 engine or smaller. For example the new Maxima will be pushing 260HP from a new 3.5 engine. Whereas, I think the LS V8 pushes 252 in a 3.9 engine. Also, I think in general, most foreign cars cost more than American cars and whenever I see or hear about an American car matching the same price of a German car, I expect that car to be like "Whoa" and to be honest, I don't see the Lincoln LS to be that prestigious. Don't get me, I'm not bashing this car.....I have not seen an American car look this good in a long long time.

markls8

nosho - #4858 - "Wheel drive shaft torque at the torque converter is then derived from the HP measurement, which is effected by the wheel size." That is to imply that changing wheel size changes HP. It doesn't.( It would be REALLY KULE if it did though!) Take a look at lolaj42's link at #4854 above - it's a good brief explanation.
lolaj42 - Thanks - good background link. Looks like my original intuition was correct. Wheel diameter does affect the dyno torque reading. Using the equation HP = Torque X RPM /5252 , if you reduce the wheel diameter you increase the torque delivered to the dyno flywheel, but that is equally offset by a corresponding increase in the wheel's RPM. Specifically wheel diameter doesn't affect calculated horsepower , but individual differences in the two different tires (frictional rolling resistance at given psi., width, etc.) however, would. Is this a significant variable for Brian's tests? Anybody's guess. My guess? - probably not.

jnowski

As long as the tire slip is similar to other tires, I don't think it makes any difference either.

airwolf1000

I think you might be right. What you are paying for in the LS is the Performance. It is a true enthusiast car with a touch of American Luxury. If you want the Whole Package or better yet more Luxury Step up to the Jag S-Type. After All The LS and the Jag share alot, but the Jag is more luxi inside which is what it sounds like you want.
The Avalon might be a nice alternative for the daily commute with the nice surroundings. But once you hit the twisties, ha see you later jack.

Your choice, I have yet to see a car that gives as much as the LS for the price (BMW 7 series Size) BMW (525-530 like) Performance and to (Tell you the truth the interior on the 5 Series I think is bland also). Also the LS has a Smooth V8! With Northstar Like system to boot! (I always forget the LS Can run without coolant!(The V8 At least). One More thing, you can consider waiting for the 2003 LS which Brian says is Niiiiiiiiiccccccceeee!

Regards,
Airwolf

scottc8

I agree; if pure luxury is what you want, the Avalon is hard to fault. The one I drove last year had a sticker price about $5k less than my LS8. A lot of car for the money. The LS is a different animal altogether. And while the HP numbers for new Japanese cars are impressive on paper, I'm more interested in on-the-road performance, and I don't mean 0-60 drag racing tests. 252 hp from a 3.9 V8 may not look like much but, thanks to some superb engineering, the LS8 delivers, in real-world driving.

I will argue with one of your statements: Show me the German car the the LS matches the same price of. It will be smaller, slower, and much less generously equipped. (More prestigious, though, no doubt.)

None of this is to belittle your opinions. Do your homework, make your choice, and please post what you decided, and why. In spite of recent reports to the contrary, criticism of and alternatives to the LS are welcome here.

mrankell

Well it finally rained last night. I had my new 2001 LSV8 with the moisture sensitive wipers set to auto. Yes, it worked, but I felt it was not as sensitive as it should be. Has enybody else had experience with these auto wipers. Is there adjustments that the dealer can do with it.

stanny1

The recent Avalon looks like a pimpmobile, especially from the rear. I think the Aztek rear looks better and that's not saying much.

akirby

Mine work great - no complaints. I find it really annoying now when I have to manually turn on the windshield wipers in other vehicles. Same for changing the radio station. I regularly 'surf' through all 6 presets with one finger without removing hands from steering wheel. Is that lazy or what?

gkarg

...any and all involved in or touched by the tragedies today!

It really puts a lot of things into perspective and makes you realize how insignificant those "little things" really are.

stanny1

For the people on those three planes, 0-60 times are pretty insignificant. We dwell too much on the small stuff and take a lot for granted.

garnes

Price8 - you can have the avalon. Interior may be cushy (I'm not sure about comfortable - the seats weren't that great in my opinion) but, sort of old-man cushy. Inspiring? No. Exterior styling is just dumpy. Really dumpy. Again - you can have it.

Oh, and you can have your 3.0 200+ HP engines too. How high do you have to rev to get those horses?? Where is the torque? (which really counts).

Stanny is right. On paper - great. But it's not that simple. True performance is what counts. One other thing, all that 0 to 60 stuff seems to vary a lot depending what you read. And that 260 HP has been revised to 255 - they lied. You have to wonder about the 255 as well. Be wary of hype.

stanny1

The one that crashed outside Philly had no survivors as well.

kinny

I have seen a many things in my life and have been somewhat hardened by some
of these through the years. A few minutes ago I watched images that have
tears streaming down my face. I have seen the Trade Center Towers and I
still cannot believe what I see. I cannot even comprehend the senselessness
and evil of all of this.

As a Canadian, may I offer my deepest sympathy and say I truly share in the
sorrow across America tonight. As a human being, I am hurt. I an offended,
and I am angry.

May God bless America tonight.

Very respectfully,

Ken Smith

leadfoot4

Given the events of yesterday, suddenly the minor glitches with a car seem insignificant.
If any one on this board has been personally affected by this tragedy, you have my most sincere and heartfelt condolences. To all of those who have perished, may they rest in peace...

jasco2

Am an LS owner since 8/99. Love the car, love Town Hall most of the time, and am flying my country's flag in front of my home all week. As someone said, hp and torque are rally insignificant in view of what has happened to this greata country where we CAN freely argue, discuss and freely express an opinion. God bless the unknown thousands who sensely died, and God bless the airline crews who tried.

jerrym3

I work on the Hudson River in Weehawken, NJ, a few miles north of lower Manhatten. I learned of the attack after the second plane hit. I ran outside expecting to see a small trail of smoke. What I saw made me stop short.
The smoke was drifting to the south, away from me. The clouds of smoke were gigantic. I could see gapping holes in the building.
I watched for a while and then went back to work. I sat down just in time to hear the unthinkable: a tower had collapsed.
I ran to a window, but, due to the tower's line-up, could not see the space left by the collapsed tower. I still thought that only the damaged portion and above had collapsed. Smoke was still coming from the standing tower, except now the clouds of dust/smoke were down to the street level with the surrounding buildings looking like monuments sticking up from a fog.
I then saw the entire second structure collapse in what looked like slow motion. The last piece to disintegrate was the transmission tower.
I'e been to Christmas parties at the Windows of the World and marveled how small the Statue of Liberty looked from the 106th floor; I've taken a number of evening cruises and stood in awe at the two, tall, lit up structures against the night sky; I worked for a company that had an office in one of the towers.
I didn't cry, but tears came to my eyes.
I hope that we find the right people who did this and provide justice. No amount of retaliation against the guilty party is too great.
In the north Jersey area, one can frequently see the NY skyline. That skyline has changed.
So have I.

fantom

As Americans, we will never let Tuesday's vicious attack on human decency make us lose our own humanity. If it was a terrorist group that did this, they should be permanently taken out, and if any country assisted, then they have declared war on America and should be handled accordingly. We are in a long term war on all terrorism and we have no check list.

Make no mistake about it, this is not over--and nukes can fly two ways. We have to react with intelligence, patience, and unity. There have been no easy answers in the middle east and there will be no simple solutions here. Our strength and character will be tested for some time and our lives will never be quite the same.

It sounds like the men on the 4th airliner tried to take back control, knowing full well that they would crash. Our way of life and our freedom will prevail because of people like them, and like the ones working so bravely in NY, DC, PA, and many other places.

Like it or not, we are ALL soldiers now, with all that that implies, and we will be tested. The eyes, and future of the world are in our hands. May a kind and just spirit guide us.

chartrand

As a Canadian who has lived for almost a decade in Texas, I can say that this is one patriotic nation. I have always marveled at my neighbors displaying their flags for July 4 etc. There are many flags in the neighborhood today. They fly for a different reason - solidarity and defiance, so as not to let a bunch of animals get the better of them. I salute you and am proud to live amongst you.

ezaircon4jc

to break out the "short" list and create some glass parking lots! Words can not express my outrage. Seeing empty airspace over most of the western hemisphere is a constant reminder. Air travel will never be the same. WE will never be the same. I do believe Admiral Yamamoto's words will ring true again, (paraphrased) they have woken a sleeping giant!

reneleblanc

I think this group has become overwhelmed by the recent catastrophy in New York and the impending sense of a long difficult national struggle. Somehow, discussing our automobiles seems frivolous in the shadow of such horror that we've witnessed. Still, I'm quite sure that is what the perpetrators would like to see... that we all become distracted and depressed.

In spite of all this, we must maintain a balance in our lives and not forget to maintain the positive energy in life, even while resolving to defend the force of freedom.

lateralg

This looks interesting. What do you think?

http://www.zdnet.com/anchordesk/stories/story/0,10738,2812283,00.html

ezaircon4jc

I'll have to e-mail EXACTLY what I think about the system.

What I will say publicly is that there ARE air marshalls. There are also rounds available that were designed specifically for use in aircraft. The Glasser Safety Slug is one. I also believe the flight crew should be armed. I'm sick and tired of what pansies we have become as a nation not fighting for ourselves. If it is true that all these animals had was knives, how can 3 or 4 people overpower 50? It must be the the old mantra of your life is more important than "fill in the blank". I'm sorry, but a crook isn't going to get my car or whatever as long as I am conscience enough to try and prevent it!

Off my soapbox.
Mike

brunobus

I agree with Mike.

I think the main problem on those highjacked airliners that did damage was the we as a citizen have had it pounded into our brains to not retaliate against a threat. Just sit back, let the criminals take want they want and no one will be hurt. I would even guess that these terrorists actually used those exact words.

You see it all the time, in movies, in newspapers, on t.v., etc., etc. Don't do anything and no one will be hurt.

Heck, I'm sure that prior to this incident, I too would have simply sat back and waited for the plane to land in whatever country the hijackers said they were taking the plane too.

I guarantee, though, that myself and probably just about everyone else in this country will not let anyone get away with hijacking another airplane again.

The mice have left the building and the Americans have come back to life.

Bruno

jerrym3

I am a frequent business flyer. (Just last Thursday, I flew out of Newark, and, on Saturday, flew out of Logan.) Should I ever find myself in a hijack, I will now automatically assume that I am in a suicidal situation.
When I think about the carry-on items that we all take on board (laptops, pens, calculators, pagers, cellphones, overhead luggage, etc) that can be used to hit, or be thrown, at hijackers armed with knives, a few people, working together, as evidenced by the plane that went down in Pa, could make a difference.
The heros on that plane did something that very few of us would have had the nerve to do. Who knows how many lives, or which one of our national treasures they saved?
I know we don't, and probably never will, know the names of all those that acted to stop the terrorists on that flight, but their families should be proud to know that innocent people are alive today because of them.

drolds1

René- as usual, you cut to the heart of the matter in the most eloquent of terms.

This forum is supposed to be a pleasant diversion for us and we could all use a little of that right now. Mayor Giuliani of NYC keeps encouraging the populace to go out to eat, shop, see a movie or show, etc. Try to return to some sense of normalcy. Don't give the pond scum that perpetrated this dastardly act exactly what they want.

It's not easy, but we have to carry on and it's not disrespectful to those who have been lost.

Now I have to go practice what I preach. I've spent all my free time glued to the TV or radio and moping around. Last night my wife & I made a pact to watch Chris Rock's "Down to Earth" for some good laughs. Of course, we just went right on watching the news.

If anyone here lost a friend or loved one, my heartfelt condolences go out to you.

Peace,
Artie

ls1bmw0

I have not posted because it hurt too much and I could not come up with words to describe the pain that comes from the country I love so dearly.

I still cannot. The horror, the grief that the relatives of the victims as well as the victims themselves, felt.

We weren't there, thank God. We will never know what the last moments of any of those souls were like and for that we should all be thankful that we didn't have to go through the hell on earth before they died.

Grieve for the dead, the injured, the friends and relatives. Grieve for the rescuers for their pain will be much greater in the coming months. I know that pain, I was a search and rescue member. Grieve for the Arab-American community. Nothing can hurt more than being implicated because of the color of your skin or your nationality or your faith. They are good, decent, human beings who have as much patriotism as any of us, but are afraid to show it due to fear of retribution.

Grieve for our country and our children who have witnessed this rape of our land for we will never be innocent again.

Brian

leadfoot4

I have a personal friend who is a commercial pilot and also has a NY state gun permit. He is also furious that the FAA will not allow him or any of his colleagues to carry arms on a plane.
He told me that this has been a serious point of contention betwen the pilots union and the FAA for quite some time, but the feds won't back down. Maybe now, the'll reconsider.
In the meantime, we'll just have to "fly" there in our LSs. Or is it LSes ??

airwolf1000

A friend of mine decided to see a comedy to get out of the gloom and doom. We saw Rat Race. It was hilarious... I really recommend it. I hate giving the speeches especially about being patriotic. I am very private in that regard and actually hate to talk about it. I know what I feel as each of us does. I think we all know how we feel about this country. I get choked up everytime I see the letters NASA and the whole symbol with the american flag I want to cry(Sorry but NASA for me embodies the American Spirit). We have many achievements and I am proud of our accomplishments. However we need to move on enjoy the good old american things a picnic at the countryside, or at a lake, or even dinner and a movie with a cherished friend or your wife/husband. A corn on the cob. A candy apple. The simple things in life.

Even stupid funny movies like the rat race healthy funny movies that keep you on the edge of your seat. Those terrorist didn't take my innocence. At least I am not going to let them.

ezaircon4jc

I love what you've done there, Brian!

If any of you noticed, I changed my flag back. I don't know when I'll fool around with it again, but it will be a while! I'm proud to be an American and will display my countries flag proudly. Here and at home! You should see the flag at the end of my street. It is HUGE! Gotta be 20' X 15'! It's BEAUTIFUL!

pat

I've already posted this in several places, but some of you may be interested in this column that appears in today's Chicago Sun-Times. I found it quite powerful: The spirit of America: bowed, but unbroken.

About the flags that appear by our names - I've seen Americans all over Town Hall (who previously had chosen countries to display the interesting flag variations) correcting their profiles to reflect their actual country of residence. I find that quite heartening. In fact, I find several of the discussion groups' responses to this weeks events, including this discussion, very reassuring personally.

I work in IT at the largest naval facility in the world here on the East Coast. I've seen dramatic security measures that simply have never occurred before in my 20 years there. This facility is surely a prime target, and the mission of the defense agency for whom I work is "support the warfighter". I'm on 24/7 call and expect to be for quite some time in the future. These events have impacted us all in ways that - I fear - may just be beginning.

I guess I just wanted to say that I personally appreciate each and every one of your feelings about what has happened, and wanted you to know that I share them deeply.

Pat
Host
Sedans Message Board

scottc8

I've been quiet for the same reasons others have stated. But my thoughts and sentiments have been expressed here more eloquently than I could myself. I'm not quite ready to jump back in to car discussions, but will be soon. It's important that we not forget, or feel guilty, to continue to celebrate the joyous miracle of being citizens of this great nation. If we give that up, then these despicable people will have won.

Scott

drolds1

Thanks, Pat, for pointing us to that uplifting piece.

I don't work in Manhattan. My office is in the western part of the borough of Queens, NY and the twin towers were always visible from the upper floors. It took me all day, but I finally summoned enough courage to go to the top floor and look out the west side of the building. As many times as I've heard it this week, I still wasn't prepared for the sight of nothingness in the spot where the towers stood just a few days ago.

On Friday, I take an earlier than usual train home. This is a train that is packed with construction workers returning to the suburbs from projects in Manhattan. Today, there was the smell of smoke in the car. There was no fire. The smell was coming from the guys' clothes; guys who had clearly spent the day working at "ground zero." I felt better. Some of these guys (iron workers, for example) are putting in a full shift at their regular jobs and working at night in the rubble. Exactly the spirit of America embodied in Roeper's piece.