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They are really incompetent if they miss the opportunity to test the 2002 with 220 hp.
I really don't know if I would like to see a shift in attitude towards "BMW dealer attitude". I shopped a number of BMW dealers and I felt they all had their noses in the air. When I asked "what could you sell it for" I was told "well we'll give you something off" It was indicated that the something would be on the order of a hundred bucks. I made a deal on the LS that was $1500 below invoice. Over $4,500 below sticker! No it wasn't a demo or body damage vehicle.
By the way some people have posted that the LS is $15,000 below a 5 series. Hell I priced the 3 series and when you equiped it like the LS IT WAS WAY OVER $40. That's for a car with a little Honda wheelbase. Handles good on smooth stuff but on anything else the ride has to suck. I can't imagine what a 5 series would be. More the $15k.
I certainly don't want to see Lincoln dealers with "attitude"; however, there are several posts on the LLSOC forum from people who were treated less than adequately in Lincoln showrooms. Salespeople need to understand that prospective LS buyers probably aren't typical Town Car buyers, and start treating these potential customers with respect; they are Lincoln's future.
(My sales and service experiences have been excellent; I have no complaints. Not everyone has had the same experiences, though.) I didn't elaborate in my previous post because I had already done a GREAT deal of rambling.
Regarding pricing, I said: "When you compare prices, a similar-sized BMW V8 sedan (540), comparably equipped, lists for about $16,000 more than the LS V8 Sport. " The keys here are "similar-sized", "V8", "comparably equipped", and "lists". An '02 LS V8 Sport with moonroof and the AdvanceTrac/heated seat package lists for $40,425. An '02 BMW 540i automatic with sport package, premium sound, fold-down seats, and cold weather package lists for $56,920, and that's pretty much "comparably equipped". The BMW has a few more features, like more seat adjustments, headlamp washers, and ski bag. The difference in list price is $16,495. (This does NOT comprehend the fact that one can usually get a bigger discount on an LS than on a 540; remember, I'm talking about "list", i.e. MSRP.)
So, like I said...
JLinc, LLSOC charter member
So, 2 things:
1.) Beware your brake boosters. If this part is on national backorder, one can reasonably assume that they've had some widespread problems with it - I haven't been able to find any recall info.
2.) Has anyone else had this problem? Please respond to dhdunn@yahoo.com. Thanks!!
dhdunn
Oh. The salesman at the dealer where I wound up buying knew nothing about the car or it's attributes. For example, he pointed out the headlight levels and said they were there to indicate the 50/50 weight distribution. No lie!
I have always found this to be typical however. Car salesman know nothing about what they are selling and they only have a few models to learn. I'm a rep for a large consumer electronics company and I'm expected to know around 3,000+ models. I don't know why auto salesman are the way they are. It seems like there only job is to get you to take a test drive and turn you over to the manager. One thing about the place I wound up buying. I never met the manager until after the deal was done and it was the best deal by far of any dealer I visited.
jhoffman61: I agree about the back seat. My daughter (she's 11) can't seem to stay awake for any trip over an hour! If we're out past 9, she falls asleep right away. This never happened in our Sable!
Mike
LLSOC Member
That's why you always test drive the car that will be yours before you sign your life away. If you would have balked at purchase time they would have found a way to get your radio pronto.
I STILL love this car. No window failures, rattles, cracked header pipes or vibration issues. I have had a couple first year supplier glitches, but they were what I would consider normal. My wife wants to go to Hawaii. I told her only if I can drive
Mike
LLSOC Charter Member
When I decided I was ready, I wanted to check the competition; Mercedes 320/430, Lexus GS 300/430, and Acura TL. I quickly dismissed the Acura because of the front wheel drive. Just was not in the same class as the others. The Mercedes felt too soft. The Lexus dealership impressed me greatly, but I did not feel the GS offered anything the BMW had, except for an AWESOME stereo. But the ride was really too quiet, great for listening to music, but not for enjoying the driving experience. I loved the 540. I felt the 530 was ok, but a lot of money for ok. I was debating if I wanted to pay the extra for the 540 (roughly $58K) when my boss mentioned he had a friend who recently purchased the LS and loved it. I laughed. No way was my dream sports sedan going to be American made. The last American car I purchased was an Oldsmobile Firenza hatchback in 1982.
I went ahead and test drove a LS V8 Sport. I stopped driving manuals when I moved to the Atlanta area. The toughest thing I ever gave up, but the stop and go traffic here is murder. I could not believe how well it drove. I had read the reviews and did not expect what I was feeling. Definitely better than the 530, difficult to tell the difference with the 540 for my type of driving. In addition, the extra room in the back seat was a plus for my kids (15 and 10). I am tall and need the seat all the way back. With the 540 my son would have a real shortage of leg room (but that was going to be his problem). Not so with the LS. My wife could not believe it when I drove home in the LS. She thought I had lost my mind. Then I took her for a drive. When we came off 400 onto the circle off ramp at 80 MPH she understood. She did check how much life insurance coverage I had, though. The next month I took the $20K I saved and traded in her minivan for a Lexus RX300. She is happy.
As far as problems go, I have experienced the following: I wanted the V8 Sport without the moonroof because of my height. The only one the dealer had without a moonroof had a build date of 1/01 and it was July. When I got over 60 I felt a vibration that I had not felt with the others. The tires (firehawks) may have been a little out of round because the car had been sitting. They switched it out with some Turanzo EL 42s. They were fine. I would be interested to know if I should have stuck with Firehawks. I have been tempted to order a set from Tirerack. Anyway, that was done before I bought the car.
After taking delivery, I noticed the headlight moisture problem in one headlight. I asked that they replace both, which they did without hesitation. I have also had a chirping noise (like a cricket) that came from the right rear door panel. They replaced that and said a clasp had broken. Otherwise the car had been perfect.
A really believe part of the problem reviewers have is you have to have guts to say a Lincoln is in the same class as Mercedes and BMW. In addition, as was said earlier this is a new model. I actually respect Lincoln for not making dramatic changes the first few years. They have a great platform, just tweak it and get it right. The first year is always tough. I have been shopping for a car for my daughter who turns 16 next month, was looking at the Acura RSX, then read about the engine problems on Edmunds town talk. I was skeptical if it was an over reaction, but then had two different dealers offering me a great deal on one with about 4,000 miles that had gotten a new engine! I am getting her a Honda Civic.
Sorry for the long post. A lot of pent up comments.
PS. My boss has had 2 windows fail on his 540, and the driver side door handle broke off, and a radiator problem.
I don't know what to think about tires anymore. I'm one of the big fans of the Firehawks, but starting to wonder about Firestone's quality control. My first set was perfect as far as balance goes, only had them rebalanced once during their 35k mile life. Just had a second set (from TireRack.com) mounted today and the first thing I did after leaving the shop was take the car up to 80+ on a good smooth road, and . . . perfect, just like the car has always been. Yet many people have reported the same vibration problems as you, and fixed it by ditching the 'Stones. I don't understand the discrepancy, other than to suspect flaky manufacturing process control.
Enjoy the ride!
Scott
LLSOC Member
I keep wondering why Lincoln hasn't sent 2002 LS V6 manuals out to the car rags. Then I think that even with 220 HP they will be slower than the 3:31 rear end ringers Lincoln originally sent out to the rags.
We've discussed oil filters before, and as most people know, the Motorcraft filter for the LS-8 is made in the UK. I mentioned the Baldwin filter a few days ago, and the case of them that I ordered arrived yesterday afternoon. I popped open the box to take a look, and they're made in Germany.
The only lettering on the filter is a 3 digit number, and the phrase "Made in Germany". The type font almost looks like a Bosch style print. On the bottom of the filter in ink stamp, is Baldwin's part number. Interesting.
The end of the filter can is also different, with deep ridges, instead of the "fluted" style of most domestic filters. I'll have to get a different filter wrench to fit these. Also, the filter is in the box with a plastic cover on the open end, to keep out debris until being used. I thought that was a nice touch, I've never seen that before.
The case of 12 was $74, including shipping. I hope that everyone has a good holiday, see you all next year.
Date: 1670-a paper that is printed and distributed usually daily or weekly and that contains news, articles of opinion, features, and advertising.
I think this evolved into a slang expression meaning almost any kind of periodical.
I think everyone has covered the bias topic pretty well. I'll just say to americanstndrd, don't take the claptrap that comes from the auto-journalists as gospel. If you've been reading these RAGS as long as I have, you know that they are full of inconsistencies, half-truths and just plain, good old-fashioned American steaming BS. Just one of countless examples, but apropos to our discussion: in a 1999 preview test of an LS in Car and Driver, they praised the bank-vault like solidity of the chassis. Several months later in a multi-car comparo, one of the crticisms leveled is the flexible chassis.
I was just reading the 11/01 issue of Motor Trend this morning. In describing the interior of the Infiniti I35, they state "...the wood accents, though synthetic, are beautiful." How many times have you seen them criticise this in American cars?
We need to look no further than right here at Edmunds. They whined for months about the operation of the auto trans knowing full well that reflashes were available to fix the problem. Why do that when you can go on criticising it? This from so-called automotive writers who drove the car for a year before realizing that the battery was in the trunk.
hmm nailed it. Drive the car and you will become a believer. Don't believe evreything you read, especially when the writer has an agenda.
stevenwglauser-schizoid product line. I don't understand your disappointment with the TC. Do you expect Lincoln to walk away from their top selling line? It is what it is and and it fulfills a need. The car is the darling of Livery services everywhere. Do you think you can take a family of 4 with luggage to the airport, in luxury, in anything else? Some of the changes to the 03, e.g. higher trunkline, were made in direct response to those needs. From what I've read, some of the other changes, hydrofomed frame rails, rack & pinion steering, should pay some real dividends in adressing the "land-yacht" problems. It's not an LS, but I think you'd be suprised at how anything as big as this could handle this well. As far as the Continental, why even talk about it? It's gone after the 02 MY. As far as dropping the TC in favor of a "GM Towncar", they appeal to 2 different demographics.
Your feelings on the Navigator and Blackwood aside (and I agree with you), notice how quicly Cadillac scrambled to get the first-generation Escalade into production. Now, the Escalade EXT will follow closely on the heels of the Blackwood. Come to think of it, there's nothing inherently unique about the Camry or Accord either, but they seem to sell a lot of cars.
Sorry for getting off topic . . . this is the LS board isn't it? ;-)
My $0.02 FWIW.
Well, just before I posted my message, the dealer called and said they got the wrong part from Ford for the seat heater. They got one for a Navigator instead of the LS. So I'm going to go pick her up and then bring her back when they get the correct part in. Guess they should have checked the LLSOC website to make sure they had the correct number before ordering it. At least this will give me a chance to check on how the other little items were taken care of.
Bruno
LLSOC member
It has been a long year, that is the only way I can describe it but it was filled with friendships all the way around. As we all know the Sep. 11th tragedy made us value our friendships. In any case two highlight of this year were meeting most of ya at Mania I and II. I hope to be at Mania II and see you all there to continue to share our friendships, laughter, and partake in our common bond the LS. Today I passed an LS and the guy and I looked at each other and we nodded. Reminded me that I was driving a special car regardless of its flaws. No words needed to be said.
Season's Greetings to all, and a Happy New Year. We have many things to look forward to this year including the New LS!!!!
Happy LSing!
Victor
LLSOC Member
Mike: Your radio problem sounds suspiciously familiar. I get: (1) No mute from steering wheel (I originally thought it was because I didn't have a phone installed [but the mute button on the radio itself worked fine]) (2) Messed up switching elsewhere on the wheel (scan down OK but scan up increases volume) (I didn't try EVERYTHING like I should have before buying) (3) Radio lights don't recognize headlights on/panel dimming (Thought that somehow this was "normal." I know, brain f*rt...)"
Dealer has ordered replacement radio, but not much detail about how long it is going to take to get it in. The last time I was in to pick up some items that the dealer agreed to toss in with the sale of the car, I was warned that it would "be quite a while." I guess that's the definition of indefinite national backorder.
Is the radio issue a more common problem than I had assumed?
Anybody know if Jaguar uses the same radio in the S-Type? My son works on Jags & maybe he can get a radio sooner...
today... 30 degrees.. turn on the drivers heated seat... nothing...
I thought I was done with this... had the element replaced once already..... then had two seat covers replaced due to rips in the leather..... now I'm back to the service department..
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year
Kevin
LLSOC Charter Member
Poor paint, squeaks, vibration, and no interior room except to sit and drive.
Drove real nice. Mountain driving, city or Interstate. Sure was nice.
Poor build quality.
Bravada has 270 HP / 275 ft lbs straight six...plenty of power. Not as sure footed as the LS, in fact, far from it. But that would be my only nit. Air ride. Luxury ride, but not in the town car way, not the Suburban way. Taut, but not tight like the LS.
Bravada has flawless paint (red) fit and finish. Inside accommodations are more luxurious looking than th LS, and of course there is plenty of room, cup holders, storage and 4 (four) power outlets.
Bravada has memory seats activated by the remote, also sets mirrors, radio station and volume, heat settings and temp. On Star, moonroof that doesn't intrude into head room; heated seats.
Also has complete separate driver one & two settings for many comfort options. And that 6 channel Bose sound system is awsome. It makes the Alpine system in the LS sound like a dime store transistor radio.
Just for grins, you should check one out and see how well Lincoln could make the little things. It's like the LS is a good rough draft, but still needs refinement. I will miss the LS, but the Bravada will ease the pain quickly.
Got 22225 Trade against GM Supplier price of 31400 on the Bravada (MSRP was 34700). My LS had only V8, Alpine, and 6 disk changer.
Best wishes and drive safe.
Greg Noller
Wichita
I was driving on an Austin freeway today when a rock took a hop & skip across my windshield, leaving a couple of those "star" cracks. They're nearly in the center, about six inches above the wiper blade. One is probably about dime- or nickel-sized, including the points of the star, and the other is smaller. They're not radiating yet. (My insurance agent's office is closed until Wednesday, of course--missed him by an hour, so I couldn't get any info there.)
Since I have the auto wipers and the auto mirror with compass, I really, REALLY don't want to have the windshield replaced if I can help it; I figure that pulling the old one & putting in a new one leaves me open for other problems. Glass repair seems to be a big thing nowadays; have any of you guys had this done? If so, were the results satisfactory? Any hints, tips, pitfalls, or suggestions/recommendations? I'd like to think that mine's a candidate, but I've never lost a windshield before, so I'm not sure which approach to take.
I also seem to vaguely remember hearing that the LS windshield needs to be replaced with Lincoln-specific glass because of the tint/coating/whatever. Did I dream this, or is there something to it?
Any info would be much appreciated.
Thanks in advance & happy holidays to all,
JohnnyLinc, LLSOC charter member
If the damage is in your line of sight, replacement may be your best bet. I, too, was concerned about windshield replacement as I'm afraid the replacement seal may not be as air/water tight as the factory install. However, I would not be overly concerned about the moisture sensitive autowiper feature. The sensor for this mechanism is located in the box which mounts the rearview mirror to the glass. The firm replacing the windshield will have to remove your mirror anyway, and reinstall it on the new windshield. From what I was told by the technicians that repaired my windshield was that the new glass has some sort of marking indicating where to attach the mirror. As I do not have the compass integrated mirror on my 2000 LS, I cannot speak to your second concern.
I'm sure our fearless leader Brian (aka LS1BMW0) will chime in on this, as I know he has had to replace his windshield . . . in response to my posted concerns about this time last year!
Hopefully you can get a repair technician out to implement a repair before the crack propogates to a point beyond repair. Again, in my experience from living in Arizona, high temperature gradients (rapid temp changes - problematic in the summer months) really cause cracks to grow, so I feel that speed is of the essence, although probably not quite so critical now.
Hope this helps, and Happy Holidays!
Chris - LLSOC Charter Member
But right now my LS is at the dealership waiting for a brake booster which seems to be on terminal backorder, and without which I cannot drive the damn car. So, the only chance I have of having that ego boost is if I sit in the parking lot with it, and hope someone in an LS drives by!!
I do love my LS. It handles like a dream. But I've had too many problems with it - 2 bad right headlights (lost moisture seal); bad voltage regulator in motorized driver's seat; bad module in the advanced traction control; bad radio; bad brake booster.
All of this was well AFTER I drove it off the lot. I've got 20,400 miles on it and have owned it since August, 2000. Although it's a nice car, unfortunately the mechanics know it better than I do, or so it seems.
About the brake booster, I called the Lincoln customer service number, and talked to a well-meaning cusotmer service agent. She said there was nothing Ford could do because ordering parts is the responsibility of the dealership!! And from where does the dealership order parts??
Frustrated that I don't have my LS....AGAIN!!!!
dhd
My crack (the windshield's!) started out a a tiny rock chip and quickly propagated across the entire windshield. Probably due to a 100 degree day and the fact that the windshield is a stressed member.
Safelite came out and installed mine while I was at work. No leaks, no added wind noise, in over a year.
Brian
LLSOC Kahuna
P.S. Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, and a safe holiday season to all!
Mike
LLSOC Charter Member
The cracks aren't close to my line of sight; they're in the middle, almost under the mirror, and down pretty low. I'll probably try to wait until next week when I can talk to my insurance guy and then try the repair if they haven't spread. We're getting an Arctic blast over the weekend, with lows in the mid-20s for several days in a row (Hey--that IS Arctic in Texas!
At least if I do have to get a new windshield I'll be able to feel confident about it, thanks to your shared experiences. Muchas gracias!
JLinc, LLSOC charter member, who swears he's been a good boy this year...
I just got my LS's right rear window repaired (along with the peeled chrome from the front door handle that cut my wife's hand and the trunk lining hold-downs that appear to have never existed), and had an interesting discussion with the "Customer Service Manager" regarding the need to replace both rear window mechanisms when either packed up. Stay tuned.
As to the paint. I was directed next door (Sundland Lincoln/Mercury in Glendale, AZ) to a rental agency that rendered up a Ford Focus that had better (both color choice (RED) and quality) paint than the LS. Oh well. . .
The thing handles great. Now, let's imagine if it was meant to compete with other cars it its class, when it comes time to do maintenance, calculate mpg, wax or polish the surface, or. . .
Hope everyone has a safe & joyous holiday. Please give some thought & prayer for those Americans who are far from home this year, in danger in a strange land so that we at home may be safe and free.
Scott
LLSOC Member
Thanks
I just came in last night from a week in Montreal where it's white and cold and miserable (can I tell you I don't miss it)On the way to the airport a lady lost it on black ice. She was 3 lanes over and parallel to me one minute and headed straight for me the next. For what seemed like an eternity, she bounced off one guard rail, skidded across the highway, hit the other and spun several times before crossing the highway and skidding to a stop. She appeared uninjured but shook up. I was as usual running late to catch a plane so didn't stop althought others did.
I had been into an argument with my brother up there and we ended up basically saying if we never spoke again that would be fine. After almost biting the bullet with the car headed towards me, I immediatley called him from the airport and patched things up. Life is too short and you never know where it will end. If any of you have had arguments with friends or loved ones, please take the time to think it over as if it was your last day on earth. Is that how you'd want it to end?
Peace and goodwill to all for the Christams season and beyond.
Ray
Charter LLSOC member.
Pay attention to the above. My brother was murdered 5 years ago. We were on good terms but I still think about the times I teased him when we were little.
Thanks even more for sharing the story about your brother. A couple of the regulars here know that my dad has been battling a serious medical condition over the past six months; in fact, I was taking him to a doctor's appointment when the rock got my car. (He was more upset than I was about the windshield.
It's a clear reminder to me of what's really important. Broken windshields and such are extremely minor annoyances at best; family and friends are what matter, and the holiday season is a time that always brings that home for me, this year especially.
I've really enjoyed the friendships I've made through this board and the LS Owner's Club, and expect them to continue for years to come. Here's wishing happy holidays and a great new year to Lincoln enthusiasts everywhere!
JLinc, LLSOC charter member
The Premium car does NOT have the SST Sport shifter, and it has the chrome or polished bumper strips rather than the monochrome bumper caps that the Sport has. The Premium car has a wood shift knob and a wood-and-leather steering wheel, rather than the all-leather knob and wheel that the Sport has.
I don't know if the Premium car has the oil cooler that's standard on the Sport, and I don't remember whether the Sport has a different steering-gear ratio from non-Sport cars.
The leather seat trim on the Premium is different from that of other LSs. The center sections of the seats are a basket-weave, rather than solid pieces. The Premium also has different floor mats and adds a cargo net in the trunk, and the moonroof is standard on the Premium.
The interior trim colors on the Premium are also slightly different. Premium interiors are only available in light parchment leather (which is only slightly lighter than the medium parchment in non-Premium cars) with medium parchment trim, and dark charcoal with light graphite trim on the pillars and headliner.
Exterior colors on the Premium are limited to black, ivory parchment, cypress green, silver frost, and ceramic white. Ceramic white is unique to the Premium car; it's not available on others. Note that silver frost is scheduled to be replaced by silver birch sometime during the '02 model year.
The Alpine Audiophile sound system w/in-dash CD, the memory feature, HomeLink, auto-dim mirror with compass, and automatic wipers are also included in the Premium package as well as on the Sport.
Hope this answers your question.
JohnnyLinc, LLSOC charter member
Once again, someone please correct me if I'm wrong about this.
One MORE thing: The Premium package is only available on V6 and V8 automatics; you can't get it on the V6 with the manual tranny.
$69,950 4.0L V8 370 HP 16/22 mpg
It has the same engine block as the Lincoln LS-8, the Jaguar VVT heads, and a supercharger.
I had a chance for a test drive yesterday. Even though it does not share the LS's forged aluminum alloy short arm/long arm suspension, these cars have a very similar feel. The cabin space also seems very similar. Surprisingly, acceleration off the line doesn't FEEL that much different from the LS-8, but if you are going along about 40 MPH and then MASH the accelerator, OH BROTHER! Those 370 Horses really show up! The 0-60 times on this car are around 5.4 seconds! It's top speed is computer limited to 155 MPH.
It really is a magnificent automobile, but the big surprise to me is that for ordinary driving around, it doesn't really feel much different from the LS. The major downer I was surprised to discover is the tiny trunk! It must be about half the size of the LS trunk!
The wheelbase is almost the same as the LS, and I think the overall length is very close too. It outweighs the LS by quite a bit at around 4500 lbs, but with all that ENGINE you really don't notice that.
I guess my point is that while the XJR is a very beautiful and exciting automobile with breath taking performance, I would have to choose the Lincoln LS all over again for the purpose we got it for.. taking long cross-country trips. It drives as quietly and handles (at least) as well as the XJR and provides a MUCH larger trunk with the additional versatility of the split fold-down rear seat, which the XJR doesn't have! I didn't get out my tape measure, but to my eye, the XJR seating space, front and rear, is almost identical to the LS's. The steering is noticeably lighter, with more power boost, which I think favors the LS when it comes to the best road feel and precision.
The J-shifter pattern is something I would have to get accustom to. I think I would still prefer the LS's SST configuration even after more time trying to get used to the J-pattern shifter.
So, even if $$ weren't a factor (even though for me it is) I would keep the extra $30K and buy the LS all over again because I think it is just as comfortable and quiet and handles at least as well, and really has a more practical configuration with much better trunk space.
Now, if I could buy a Lincoln LS with that 370 HP XJR engine.......... Yeah!
With 5,000 miles on my 02 Sport I haven't seen the break dust subside. Maybe that's why the appearance package that's due out this year includes a 17" wheel that has gray spokes and a polished rim. LOL............