Low End Sedans (under $16k)

alpha01 · April 2006

The Rio5 and Accent were pretty dang slow, too, given similar power outputs to the other vehicles. 10.2 seconds to 60 with a manual transmission is really anemic these days. They also weren't that great in fuel efficiency, but the braking numbers posted were REALLY impressive (same could be said for Yaris).

165 from 70! Thats practically sports car territory!

~alpha

iluvmysephia1 · April 2006

does that include the 2007 Toyota Yaris sedan?

A 5-speed one in Barcelona Red Metallic just came in to my local dealer and I'm considering a test drive.

Yeah, I have heard of the 2006 Rio's great braking and slaloming abilites, besting the 2006 Audi A3 even.

Slow 0-60 times mean absolutely nothing to me as I like to drive in a humane, civil way (usually).

backy · April 2006

I don't think it's Honda so much as anything that handles great, C/D loves, no matter what. So a few years ago they ranked the Protege the top small car because it had the best handling, even though it had a harsh ride, not very good fuel economy, and a relatively high price for the field. The Civic finished fifth in that comparo I think, and they called it "a loser." So C/D doesn't always put Honda on top. But in this comparo, the Fit was the best handling car so that's what wound up as their #1. Very predictable.

ross14 · April 2006

Also took a test drive in a Mazda protege top model. Best handling small car, but useless on city streets, because of horrendous ride. If you want handling throw on Konis. I prefer a manufacturer that can make a car that is quiet, comfortable, & supple riding. City streets, with potholes, & highways congested with traffic, require topnotch brakes, & minimal handling. I'm hoping the Accent Hatchback, with some suspension tweaks, will be a econo wiz.

backy · April 2006

The Accent SE is supposed to have a "sport suspension", so it might give you want you want without any tweaks needed. It will be interesting to see what C/D says about that car. It's also interesting they did not include it in their small car comparo, since it is due out before the Versa is. Maybe they decided to test only 4-door (or 5-door) cars.

ross14 · April 2006

Own a 2006 Camry. After 95 Toyota pickup(244,000 miles) was vandalized(our 2nd car), want best cheap new car. Accent hatchback will probably be choice(Aveo's warranty rules it out), but its not here in N.Y. yet. It better have a lower cost then the Corolla, which is severely discounted. Hated driving position of Corolla, but got in one where steering wheel was set at lowest position, & it was a different car. I may throw out price if the Yaris hatchback has an acceptable city & highway ride. It is a spacious(People, not luggage) stunner.

backy · April 2006

Another one to think about is the Versa, which will start at $12k and still be under $14k for a very well equipped car (ABS, power package, AC, side bags/curtains, cruise, keyless entry, 6-speed).

cdoc · April 2006

We wanted a second car that was inexpensive to buy, small, economical to run, with some oomph on the road, comfortable, four doors, and a liftback. We found all that in a Scion xA, which has the same engine as the Yaris. At just over $12k, it comes with all the bells and whistles (including ABS but not cruise control). There's plenty of room for four adults. It has a very small luggage area, but it does have 60/40 folding rear seats. Then again, for a second car we don't need that much space for luggage. We've had it for two weeks and I love it.

backy · April 2006

The xA is an attractive package at a low price. What turns me off about is is: no side curtains available; tiny luggage space with the rear seats up; very firm ride; center-mounted gauges. That is why the Versa appeals to me--for about $1000 more than the xA I can address all those issues, plus have room for three adults (or big kids) in back.

iluvmysephia1 · April 2006

the 2007 Toyota Yaris 5-speed Barcelona Red base sedan I'm eyeing right now at my local Pocatello dealer is selling for $14,650 and includes the 15" steel wheel upgrade, several "power package" ugrades in the stereo, battery, larger, level washer fluid reservoir (I know, but Toyota advertises the upgrade like it's something some of their small-car customers are craving!), power W/L/M's, etc.

What I didn't expect was the fact that this neat little red sedan comes with the optional front and passenger front seat side airbags and front and rear side curtain airbags as well!

Basically the only thing I'd add would be nice rims from a local tire and wheel center here ASAP. Just about to my string of days off so a test drive is almost a certainty.

Wife may not like the "low-rider" stance of the seating, however, the ride of the 2006 Polar White Scion xA was anything but "lowrider". We were up pretty well-not like our Sportage's "up high" seating but surprisingly up pretty high.

I just wonder how low one sits in the Yaris sedan for 2007. Only one of the things I'll be checking out.

To me, under $15,000 with looks that are much improved over the lowly-looking Corolla, the Yaris sedan not only is very affordable but also a rig that would hold it's resale value.

The Kia Rio LX and Rio5 still ring true as value packed rigs to me as well and I wouldn't buy the Yaris sedan until at least test driving the Rio twins. :shades:

backy · April 2006

For that much money I'd go with the Versa (about $800 less and including ABS, roomier back seat, and hatchback) or the Rio5 (alloys, hatchback versatility) or even the Accent sedan (loaded including ABS, power package, and even an automatic tranny). I have to take a close look at the Yaris hatchback. If I could get one with ABS and side bags, and the 60/40 rear seat, but w/o power package, that could be a nice little rig at a good price. But I'd have to compare it to the Accent SE, and the Versa with 2 more doors.

ross14 · April 2006

We both loved the Scion XA, especially the classy interior. Unfortunately, the non-adjustable( height, rake)seat ruled it out for my 5' 10" frame. Assumed it had side-bags optional.

backy · April 2006

You're right, I see that side bags are an option. I could swear that the last time I checked they were not available. But adding the side bags actually makes the xA more expensive than the Versa, which is much more car than the xA, IMO.

I find it very odd that the driver's seat doesn't have a seatback recliner. That's been standard on every car I've owned since my '76 Corolla.

nippononly · April 2006

You can't recline the Versa's driver seat? That is super weird - I suspect that is a mistake somewhere.

You didn't mean the xA did you? Because I am almost positive I actually reclined it when I sat in that car.

backy · April 2006

No, that comment was re the xA, not the Versa.

nippononly · April 2006

I am sure I had to bring the seatback up when I sat in the xA, because it was reclined too far for me to be comfortable. Could be an incorrect recollection, but I think there's a mistake here somewhere...

backy · April 2006

I figured as much, that's why I made my comment originally. Some cars lack a seat-height adjuster (but not many); none nowadays lack a recliner.

cdoc · April 2006

Keep in mind that in the xA you sit higher up, almost like one does in a truck. Your legs and feet go downward more than frontward. This takes a little getting used to. I'm 5'10" and I find it very comfortable. Yesterday at a red light I was stopped next to an older Civic, and I looked way down at it.

backy · April 2006

A very small truck.

The Civic is a low-slung car--everyone looks down at those (except maybe drivers of little sports cars). Tall small cars are the norm now--the Fit, Accent, Rio et. al. all have relatively high seating positions. It's how to add more passenger space in a short car.

ross14 · April 2006

oops! Car seats can have 8 movements. 1,2: forward/backward. 3,4: recline, raise back(vertical) 5,6: "Height" up,down(whole seat), & 7,8 "Rake": angle bottom of seat to support the thigh. The Scion xa does not have "Height", or "Rake". If car seats simply had a few a few more inches for thigh support on the lower cushion, most gripes would disappear (at least from men!)

cdoc · April 2006

Yes, the smallest truck you could imagine. But I was attempting (with little clarity on my part) to explain why reclining the driver's seat would be uncomfortable: the seating position is more vertical than horizontal.

ronald711 · April 2006

Here is a picture of the interior with the interior lights on and the dashboard lite up, Im very please with my test vehicle. I found the right backage using the Chicago area build your own car and the dealer will order it that way they advised 8 weeks for delivery. excited.
http://scottky.us/rmalinowski/photos/car1.jpg

randydriver · April 2006

nice

backy · April 2006

I did a head-to-head comparison of the Accent GLS and Yaris sedan today; here are my impressions:

backy, "The Forums Test Drive Team" #179, 8 Apr 2006 9:37 pm

giantkiller · April 2006

Hey Back, are we suppose to believe that? Since you've shown that you're pro Hyundai. And Edmunds , please close the Forum Test Drive BS. Its full of sheet of metal anyways. Who do you suppose will believe Back?

backy · April 2006

When I share my test drives here I try to be as objective as possible. I own two Hyundais now but also two Mazdas (need to sell one of the Hyundais in the next few days). I've owned or leased Toyotas, Hondas, Nissans, Mazdas, Dodges, and a Mercury, Chevy, and Mitsubishi. As of now the top choice for my next new car is the Honda Fit--but I haven't been able to drive it yet.

If you would re-read my review you will see I said many positive things about the Yaris. But I like what I like, and I call 'em as I see 'em. If you don't like that, don't read my posts. Simple as that.

pat · April 2006

Backy has proved himself to be a very objective reviewer. If you haven't realized that, you have not been paying attention.

We have no intention of closing the Forum Test Drive discussion. If it does not interest you, feel free not to read it.

If you have other Forums management comments to make, please make them via email rather than disrupting a topical discussion. Thank you.

iluvmysephia1 · April 2006

objectiveness in his car reviews. He has reviewed many a car in his regular posts, too, not just in this 'Forums Test Drive' format and I always look forward to reading what he has to say.

giantkiller, man, Toyota doesn't need a leg up help from you, anyway, man! I am totally Hyundai/Kia and now I am even looking at a 2007 Toyota Yaris sedan as a possibility.
In my view the new Yaris has classic, cool and sporty lines to it that draw me to it. Plus, it has that legendary Toyota quality(why would this car be an exception to the Toyota rule?)going for it plus great resale value. It rings up to a whopping $14,589 and that is certainly acceptable to me. My own 'Low End" sedan price criteria is more like "let's keep the total before T&L price to be under $15,000."

With all the cool small cars coming out now one can do that and still get a very, very nice car.

What I'm saying is Toyota's grabbing new customers all the time. No need to jealously back them up all the time. Their products speak for themselves.

giantkiller · April 2006

No way. See the planet Pluto ? Thats as far as you can be to being objective. Its not as if these cars arent or cant be test driven first hand by readers here. They are and I did and there is no way your bias observation about Yaris holds true for me.

giantkiller · April 2006

Leg up help for Toyota? I never own a Toyota all my life. I even criticized them about their option pricing and not offering the standard SAB. These people evaluating this and that like theyre being objective is disgraceful. You only have to go ot a couple of topics here in the forums to unmask these people. Pathetic.

pat · April 2006

Why don't you just give us your objective reviews of these cars instead of flinging insults all over?

backy · April 2006

Sure, lots of posters drive these cars and share their opinions. Why don't you share with us your detailed observations of your head-to-head drives of the Accent and Yaris? You have driven both cars, right? Preferably on the same course, on the same day, as I did, to make an apples-to-apples comparison.

I know I am biased. I am biased towards cars that are comfortable to drive, have a good mix of ride and handling in the kinds of driving most of us do in these cars (and that's not canyon-carving), are high quality, reliable, economical, safe, versatile, and a good value. Every reviewer, including the "pros" at Edmunds.com, C/D, MT, CR etc. is biased. But each reviewer has his/her own biases. I am not biased towards any particular brand. Let the best car win. You obviously have biases that differ from mine and those lead you to consider the Yaris superior to the Accent. That's fine. That's what discussion boards like this are all about. If everyone agreed on everything, they would be very dull.

joe97 · April 2006

Here's Edmunds' take:

Toyota fails to build a better Corolla

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FullTests/articleId=109860

dclurker · April 2006

I, too, will vouch for Backy. The man is good. He does better reviews than many professional writers.

ross14 · April 2006

Wow, great work, Backy. I've owned 4 Toyotas that were bulletproof, but every one of them had God-awful seats. If you can, would love to read a review of the new Accent hatchback, vs. the Yaris hatchback. Sat in the 4 door Yaris & became numb looking at black everywhere. And another awful seat. But the Yaris 3 door, designed in Europe(?), is a winner. Stunning interior, & adequate seats. Suspect that Accent hatcback with a rebate, will easily be the "Best Buy". The Aveo also has a longer warranty, than the typical Chevy.

backy · April 2006

Unfortuntely my local dealer didn't have any Yaris 3-doors, and the 2007 Accent 3-door hasn't made it to my town yet. I've sat in the Accent 3-door and it feels a lot up front like the sedan--same dash (silver trim in the SE) and same seats (different fabric in the SE I recall). Just real big doors and more cramped in back, and the hatch. Good looking though. I've only seen the Yaris 3-door from the outside, at auto shows--they were always locked. I'd be interested to see how they "sit" since I understand they don't have a seat height adjuster at all. I priced out the Yaris 3-door and with the equipment I want, it was close in price to the 5-door Fit and Versa, and I suspect about the same as the Accent SE (prices not announced yet). So that is tough competition for the Yaris, especially since it has the least cargo capacity with seats up of any of those cars.

iluvmysephia1 · April 2006

Edmunds's review of the 2007 Toyota Yaris reveals a flaw in the ointment: the cupholders are not placed intelligently. Wow. Good review by Edmunds, though. Even a picture of the offending cupholders. I'll be looking for them on the test drive.

I'm still interested!

giantkiller · April 2006

Another funny guy. Edmunds did a comparison of the Camry Accord and Sonata. Didnt like the review. Told everyone that the comparison dont mean a squat. Now, a not so good review of Yaris. Here he comes posting the link to every small car forum like it was the best thing since slice bread.
Now let me answer that review. Yes, they failed to build a better Corolla because the better Corolla wont be here until next year and in case they didnt know they're evaluating a Yaris, which is certainly a better Echo in all respect. Case close.

backy · April 2006

For $2 grand less than the price of our test car, you could get a similarly equipped Hyundai Accent with a better warranty, an equally spacious interior and decent cupholders.

Gee, that seems awfully familiar... But it can't be, because I am supposedly totally biased towards Hyundais and not a professional reviewer like the folks at Edmunds.com, so they couldn't possibly have reached the same conclusion on the Yaris that I did.

Still waiting for your comparo of the Yaris vs. the Accent.

giantkiller · April 2006

Hey Back, I got a lot of things going on for tonight but I'll have it for tommorow. For the meantime eat your hearts out while the Yaris burns the sales chart against the Accent. Here is a preview, The Accent is not bad, I'm really impressed. But, is it superior to the Yaris? I dont think so. One thing you can count about my review is that I wont be subjective. The review wont be about me, it'll be about the cars.

ross14 · April 2006

In 2001, on same day, test drove the Accord, Camry, & the Altima. Each was different; each was acceptable. Now to buy. Honda dealer wasn't "Dealing". Toyota Millenium was so busy, salesmen couldn't find a table to sell. Took the Camry at a marvelous discount. I'll take the Accent/Yaris/Corolla/Fit/Rio that has a dealer that lowers the price anyway possible. In NYC, we will see who is looking for volume sales after the Easter Auto show.

ronald711 · April 2006

Well I went to purchase my Yaris, the package I want is the base Sedan with power package in flint mica with security. they gave me what I wanted for my trade, and was willing to pay MSRP for the vehicle per Edmunds. but then I found out when I asked how they were bringing the vehicle in from another dealership in another region they said driving it, and I said I woudl not honor that, cause they said it would accrue about 400 miles of highway driving. I asked if they would lock in a trade value with me and order one to come to the dealer, they declined. It sounds like my options are only to drive up to the Chicago region, when I know a dealer is getting the packaging the way I want it and start a fresh deal then. take backroads home and break it in that way. Its said that the packaging is limiting the ability to get the car at a better price then with the packaging offered locally. Dealer said they would order it my way with a $500 non refundable deposit but would evaluate my trade once it comes in, my thought they will undercut me at that time and pocket my $500 and they will be happy.

backy · April 2006

I look forward to your review, when you get a chance to write it.

BTW, in your preview, you didn't say anything useful about the cars but did state three opinions--which are subjective.

alpha01 · April 2006

Is that it continues a long line of disjointed reviews of vehicles. Edmudns.com practically gushed over the Yaris in December during their First Drive. Apparently, Toyota redesigned the vehicle in between then and now. As for the comparos, yea, I'm a Toyota fan and the Camry won that comparo.... I didnt really take contention with the report, as basically it was the edmunds.com version of a test that Car and Driver did for the Dec 05 (though I thought Car and Driver's scoring to be better explained and more logical). I still view this site as a great repository for info, but the actual vehicle test and corresponding journalism... leave a good deal to be desired.

~alpha

iluvmysephia1 · April 2006

I look forward to seeing what happens with your Yaris base sedan. The two I am looking at are both 2007 Toyota Yaris base sedans, both in 5-speed form and Power Packages. The question I will have when test driving is this: the one in Barcelona Red paint job includes a "Northwest" dealer prep.package that runs $500. The sticker on that one(I won't bother detailing everything it does and does not have on it)comes to $14,589. BTW-it has the airbag option that includes rear side curtain and front-seat mounted side and side curtain airbags, a nice thing to have installed from the get-go.

Along comes this one in Nautical Blue, a very dark blue metallic paint job that looks very good to me, it comes in just a few days ago and they have yet to post it up on their website as a Yaris that they have for sale now. Obviously it is, though, because it's on their lot with the sticker on the window. This one has the Power Package, stereo, airbags, etc., like the Barcelona Red one but this blue one doesn't add the NW Protection package of $500. It's sticker price is $14,080. Wow, $500 less. As soon as I find a salesman to talk about the Yarii with I'm gonna ask them what gives there? Will they knock the $500 NW Protection Package price off the red one and sell it to me for the $14,080 the blue one costs? How do I really know that they did anything to the red Yaris sedan that should cost $500 more?

Oh, I'm gonna have to watch the tracking on the Yaris steering. According to C&D the steering is too sensitive, the new electronic-assist steering overdoes it to the point that the lightweight sedan(the Yaris sedan only weighs 2,377 lbs.)is not able to track on the freeway properly. They say that over 55mph you will want to have two hands constantly on the wheel. I'll want to "feel" that one for myself. Also, evidently the seat doesn't properly support your full thigh. Reminds me of the 2006 Hyundai Sonata problem. One that I wonder if Hyundai has taken care of yet. Or retro-fitted a TSB fix or something.

Anyhoo-go check out that Honda Fit if it interests you. I don't like it's styling much so I won't pursue it. C&D raves on and on about what a great rig the Fit is.

tenpin288 · April 2006

If you can get your hands on the current issue of Autoweek, they have something about the Fit, Versa, and Yaris. Long story short, they are impressed by the Fit, don't have much to say yet on the Versa as it was only a preview, and the 3 drivers that tested the Yaris for a week in the Driver's Log were somewhat less than impressed. In fact they were 2 to 1 that there are better buys for your money than the Yaris. The same info should be on their website next week.

backy · April 2006

alpha, what are your driving impressions of the Yaris and its competitors like the Accent? Do you prefer the Yaris?

alpha01 · April 2006

However, I continue to applaud Hyundai's excellent recent offerings, and the Accent is not an exception. I enjoyed your review, backy, because I thought it took the vehicles into account for what they are- small, commuter cars. What I mean by this is that Car and Driver dinged the Accent and Reno, and less so, the Yaris, for body roll and less than sporting handling. Yes, I'm used to this from C/D, but there comes a point in which professionals should disassociate their priorties from the journalism, and take into account more of what the buyers of the group of cars is going to look after. Certainly an idealistic view, and sorry for the rant... getting back.

I am impressed by the Accent. I am not impressed with Hyundai's decision to decontent next year and make ABS optional, just as I am disappointed that neither ABS or Side Curtains are standard on the Yaris. Most of what I don't like about the Yaris has to do with price- the way I've configured them, the Yaris is about $800 more than a comparably equipped Accent at MSRP. In my opinion, the "S" Yaris is a terrible marketing choice for Toyota, at least at its ridiculous premium over the base Sedan. So many reviews now have stated that the Yaris is overpriced, thats going to quickly become perception. The reality is that a similar base sedan is not disporportionately more expensive than Toyotas have been vs. Hyundais in the past.

The issue now is that Hyundais of the past left much to be desired, the new ones do not.

Not having driven the Yaris, on paper if I had the extra cash I'd take it on the following: 1) Stronger Motor (in terms of actual acceleration) 2) Better Manual Trans 4) Better Real World MPG 3) Personal Preference- Styling. I'd say I like the Yaris' instrumentation better, but the placement leaves much to be desired. Toyota is foolhardy to continue placing guages on the center stack when consumers and critics alike (in this country) have voiced discontent.

The distinct advantages likely in resale and MPG would offset the price difference, but theres no way in hell I would buy the overpriced "S" model.

Honestly, both the Versa and Fit interest me more. Having obviously not driven both, from what I've read, both are very appealing. Unfortunately, I find the sedan and hatch versions of the Versa so unattractive, I don't know if I could buy them.

Thanks for asking my opinion, I appreciated yours.

~alpha

backy · April 2006

If the Yaris had a more adjustable driver's seat, I could live with the car. I'm not crazy about the dash layout and little things like placement of cupholders and lack of little cubbies for stuff, but I could live with it. I'd take the tan interior to avoid the austerity of the all-black interior. I could stick some bodyside moldings on. Performance-wise, I thought the Yaris was fine for what it is--a small, economical around-town car. Power was adequate for me even with the automatic. Handling was acceptable; the Fit is probably better based on what I've read, but for my needs the Yaris would do just fine. The other main issue is price, as you have noted also. It would be hard for me to justify the extra money over an Accent, given that I don't put that many miles on a car and I'll be keeping it for many years, so the resale value of the Yaris doesn't help me but the Accent's long warranty does.

The Fit and Versa look more appealing to me right now than anything else in this class, although I was disappointed by the recent downgrading of the Versa's estimated fuel economy. I'll drive both when I can. But the urgency is not there for me anymore, since I decided last Saturday to get my DW a used minivan and take her '04 Elantra GT until it is time to turn it over to my middle child in 2.5-3 years. So I'll have a lot of time to study the small-car market, get all the owner experiences and crash test results, and see what happens with the hybrid options (Accent, Rio, maybe the Fit) before I have to plunk down my money for one. Meanwhile I will enjoy my Rally Red Elantra GT.

iluvmysephia1 · April 2006

purchase decisions and just casually watch for reviews and test drive, etc., isn't it?

I remain interested in the Yaris base sedan and now know which things to look out for in the test drive. The Rio twins would no doubt get a test drive from me, too.

The Fit looks choppy and weak in the looks department to me. No way I'd buy one. The Versa earned 2nd place among the 7 econo-cars in the C&D test, but it has that goofy Nissan look to it that doesn't work for me. Nissan and I don't see eye-to-eye...their little Micra is an exception, but they are afraid nobody will buy it in America because it's too small. They're probably right.

Kia and Toyota remain my two front-runners until a nice $8,000 Chinese subcompact can push them out of the way.

Just kidding. Sort of.

Low End Sedans (under $16k)

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