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Oil Filters, whose is best, and Why?
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Comments
There are two things that curiously, the conventional side seems to ignore:
1. That they will not "extend" to the recommended limits of most cars and that is 7500 miles on conventional oil. (perhaps they intuitively don't have the confidence that the conventional product can "hack" the longer intervals)
2. Also in the 3000 miles with conventional vs 15000 miles with synthetic intervals, the conventional oil change intervals COSTS MORE (per mile lubricated) (in the below example, 2.81 x more) and that is not counting the time value for oil changes! For example, if go to my dealer with oil change products in hand , they will charge me a standard 18 dollars and they DONT care if I give them synthetic or conventional!!
So if you add in the labor charge you are at 90 dollars vs 18 dollars for the same lubrication per mile .006 cents vs .0012 cents So cost per 15,000 miles : 135 for conventional vs 48 synthetic. This is not to mention that the synthetic oil is superior in many ways other than cost.
Another way to put it is: to buy a dollars $1.00 worth of lubrication, the coventional folks are willing to spend $2.81. In line with the question posed in #2286 why folks are willing to spend 2.81 for a dollar is even more confounding.
There are two things that, curiously, the synthetic side seems to ignore:
1. That they can "exceed" the factory recommended limits of most cars and that is 7500 miles. (perhaps they intuitively have the confidence that the synthetic products can "handle" the longer intervals)
2. Also in the 3000 miles with conventional vs 15000 miles with synthetic intervals, the synthetic oil change intervals ALLOW MORE room for condensation buildup or additive depletion) and that IS counting the time value for repairs! For example, if I sludge my engine up, they will charge the same for repairs and they DON'T care if I used synthetic or conventional!! (Notice that some Toyota "gell" cars used synthetic)
Happy motoring,
Jack
Throwing a statement out there like that without giving some details on an example is just worthless. There are always 2 sides to every case and you need to hear both sides.
Does your oil manufacturer even give you a written guarantee?
No, that has been proven with many oil analyses.
"the synthetic oil change intervals ALLOW MORE room for condensation buildup or additive depletion"
No, many analyses, including mine have shown that the additive depletion, as shown by the TBN, does not happen near as quickly with synthetic as with dino. The metal doesn't happen as fast either. Those 2 factors as well as the fact that the base oil doesn't break down as quickly are the reasons that the oil will last longer in the engine.
The Toyotas are a special case. There is a design flaw in those engines causing the oil to gel. People who changed at 3k intervals also get gelling.
Bob's site consistently details cases where a conventional or blend gives nearly as good, as good, or better oil analysis results compared to synthetic.
My take. Most oils today (SJ and SL) are excellent. I think most conventional or blend would be FAR SUPERIOR at 3k compared to 15k synthetic. ruking ALWAYS uses that comparison and I believe it is baseless.
Now, I have used and will continue to use synthetic in my cars. I just don't think it's the only way or the superior way. My oil usage:
97 Toyota 4Runner. I use Schaefers #703. I used Mobil 1 for about 80k of its life. It's a pain to change the oil on this, so I go 8k on a drain. I believe the Scheaffer's #703 (a blend) will last as long as Mobil 1.
86 BMW 528e. I use Schaefers #703. I used Mobil 1 for about 120k of its life. I started to use Mobil 1 early on because of noise at startup. I've also used BMW Synthetic and Schaeffer's #703 in it. All 3 seem to do an acceptable job.
03 BMW X5. I'll use the BMW Synthetic which is the factory fill. Just makes sense.
I don't have a problem with synthetic. But, I see no evidence that it has 5 times the life of conventional.
Fire away,
Jack
The thing that is baseless is your assertion that 15k doesnt work!! Why would MB, BMW, Porsche and Corvette etc warranty their cars for 36k-50k miles with up to 15k intervals using synthetic? Seems real dumb ! (unless it worked?)They are putting their money where their mouth is!
The fact of the matter is I have run a lot of miles on synthetic AND conventional oil. The real judge is 250k miles and beyond. I have done both with both oils. In the case of the conventional I felt compelled to change at 3k or less cause any more and you could have stuck a fork in it and it would have stood up. I also ran app 250k miles on 15k intervals with synthetic oil also. Is synthetic the be all to end all? Absolutely not, I have NEVER made that assertion. YOU may have made that assertion, but as you say: it is baseless!! If you read the post I do say that given the facts, conventional oil IS more expensive! Conventional oil if changed at 3k is FAR less convenient than changing synthetic at 15k. (5x's so!)
Perhaps the key is to do oil analysis for both conventional and synthetic. The operative way to do it, is easy enough. On like cars run the oils to specific prearranged target values and check for miles . Or even run them to a mile specific and check for values.
Most conventional folks (and to be fair most synthetic folks) don't do this because of the added expense. Being as how they pay 2.81 when a dollar will do, I can't say as I blame them. In either case you can use most of the 20 dollars analysis charge to do another oil change, one at 3k and one at 15k But I know that is not what you are talking about.
Mobil One is WIDELY available, Is Shaeffers? I am using commonly available off the shelves stuff. So it would be interesting for you to put numbers to Shaeffer's instead of touting baseless opinions. To cut to the chase, get it down to per mile lubricated.
So if you want to use Shaeffers, I have no problem with it. You also might want to include Amsoil and Redline etc. Again it translates to cost per mile lubricated. So show us the Shaeffer numbers or are you afraid they are BASELESS?
Also, why do you use synthetic if you don't believe its superior? Isn't that a waste of money then?
and
"I think most conventional or blend would be FAR SUPERIOR at 3k compared to 15k synthetic."
Where the heck does that come from? Many have proved that's just not true. Some even call for the 15k synthetic change in their manual. Now I would bet that interval has more current tests and research to support it than the 3k dino changes that most manuals advise.
The thing that is baseless is your assertion that 15k doesnt work!! Why would MB, BMW, Porsche and Corvette etc warranty their cars for 36k-50k miles with up to 15k intervals using synthetic? Seems real dumb ! (unless it worked?)
- I don;t contend that 15k won't work in all cases. Many BMWs have 7qt. sumps on a 6 cylinder. I maintain that conventionals can do better than 3k. BTW, BMW has used oil change indicators since the early 80s. With conventional, they would normally suggest a 10 - 12k change with a 5 qt. sump. This douesn't translate to 5x for conventional. ie. 10k on 5 qt vs. 15k on 7qt.
The fact of the matter is I have run a lot of miles on synthetic AND conventional oil. The real judge is 250k miles and beyond. I have done both with both oils. In the case of the conventional I felt compelled to change at 3k or less cause any more and you could have stuck a fork in it and it would have stood up. I also ran app 250k miles on 15k intervals with synthetic oil also. Is synthetic the be all to end all? Absolutely not, I have NEVER made that assertion. YOU may have made that assertion, but as you say: it is baseless!! If you read the post I do say that given the facts. Conventional oil IS more expensive! Conventional oil if changed at 3k is FAR less convenient than changing synthetic at 15k. (5x's so!)
- We mostly agree here. I say that a decent conventional oil will go 6k and synthetic 8k to 15k depending on the oil, sump size, driving habits, etc.
Perhaps the key is to do oil analysis for both conventional and synthetic. The operative way to do it, is easy enough. On like cars run the oils to specific prearranged target values and check for miles . Or even run them to a mile specific and check for values.
- Agreed. But, very few of us do OA on a regular basis. I have vicariously used results on Bob's site to find oil change intervals with which I'm comforable.
Most conventional folks (and to be fair most synthetic folks) don't do this because of the added expense. Being as how they pay 2.81 when a dollar will do, I can't say as I blame them.
- OK, you say that enough and even I'll start believing it.
Mobil One is WIDELY available Is Shaeffers? I am using commonly available off the shelves stuff. So it would be interesting for you to put numbers to Shaeffer's instead of touting baseless opinions. To cut to the chase, get it down to per mile lubricated.
- Well, for me, yes. I e-mailed an order, received it 6 days later. Nice freash oil from St. Louis that was delivered to my door. I've plenty on my shelf. Beats going to WalMart.
So if you want to use Shaeffers, I have no problem with it. You also might want to include Amsoil and Redline etc. Again it translates to cost per mile lubricated. So show us the Shaeffer numbers or are you afraid they are BASELESS?
- Well, I submit that every one should use what suits them best. I'm not going to accuse people of wasting money if they don't follow my model. I don't have any numbers to post on Schaeffer's. Just that I used an 8k drain on Mobil 1 and an 8k drain on Schaeffer's. So, I'm putting my engine on the line.
I not encouaging you to use Schaeffer's. I have no interest in the company, or have no desire for others to follow my pattern. I used to think Mobil 1 was the best for the buck. Now, I think Schaffer's, Pennzoil, Chevron, Castrol and others are certainly in the same league, dollar for dollar. I do like the fact that BMW synthetic and Schaeffer's #703 meet ACEA A3/B3. The ACEA A3/B3 is the spec that concerns me most, in particular HT/HS.
Thanks,
Jack
You are aware of course that Schaeffers also has their FULL synthetic?
As for accusing anyone of anything that is baseless. If folks want to pay more for a lesser product or vice versa, hey it is their nickel? I think most folks can deal with the facts. Again, I have no desire to "convert" anyone! If anything dividends and capital appreciation in oil stocks will help send my kids to B and Med School. So to all you folks that change at 3k, thank you very much!
I would agree that you are correct. The nexus is that oil filters go "hand and glove" with oil whether conventional or synthetic. The thing that becomes inadvertantly very clear is that filtering can go from a very "pure" condition 15-25k (some say beyond) per year bypass filtering with high quality synthetic oil, with topping off after just a filter change, to change oil and filter every 3k or less. The range is so great and options so varied that almost anyone can pick and chose any number of factors. The ultimate decision making factor seems to be both perceived and or real economic sense.
Why is the cost of Schaffers and shipping a state secret? You are entitled to your opinions, but you are REFUSING to base it on anything!! Being as how you only use it (Schaffers. syn blend or full conventional?) in 1/3 vehicles it is easy to see where you have your REAL bets at!
- I paid $2.66 a quart for syn blend delivered to my garage door. I use it in 2 out of 3 vehicles at the moment.
You are aware of course that Schaeffers also has their FULL synthetic?
- Yes, but full syn seems to add little over the blend (~25% PAO)
As for accusing anyone of anything that is baseless. If folks want to pay more for a lesser product or vice versa, hey it is their nickel? I think most folks can deal with the facts. Again, I have no desire to "convert" anyone! If anything dividends and capital appreciation in oil stocks will help send my kids to B and Med School. So to all you folks that change at 3k, thank you very much!
Schaeffer's blend costs less than Mobil 1 and I change them at the same interval. For me, a blend costs less.
I still like Mobil 1. Why did I switch? I like the moly in the Schaeffer's and the fact it meets ACEA A3/B3 specs. Of course, Mobil 1 now has moly, so they're catching up.
Jack
I don't know. But I don't know if Mobil 1 can either.
In your case of changing at 8k, paying 2.66 per qt of Schaffers Blend including shipping makes sense over Mobil One @ 4 bucks. (.00233275 vs .0035. assuming 7qts and filter @ 2 per oil change) As an option using 1 dollar oil till 7500 miles (if it can be done or if folks are at comfort with this is even better @ .0012)
Your cost for 15k is app 41.24, Schaffer blend vs 30., Mobil One. (or .0027493 vs .002.) Mobil One at the 15k interval however is app 27% cheaper per mile lubricated.
csandste, do you mean 'recalled' in the sense that something was deemed wrong with the product? I suspect you mean 'out of stock' or 'no longer in production'? I have about 5 ST2808s in my garage - 1 or 2 of the old style and the rest the new box (not sure how different the filters actually are).
Conventional oil users seem to choose the 3k interval since it's the lowest safe denominator. I.e., almost every SL oil is very likely to last 3k miles in just about every application. Typical exceptions (very short trips, extreme temps, excessive idling, etc.) would apply. I don't think the corresponding safe synthetic interval is anywhere near 15k miles. For me, it would be, and was, more like 5-6k miles.
Sure, conventional can often go further than 3k miles and synth further than 6k miles. But without analysis, the risk increases quite a bit as the interval increases.
This is why I shake my head every time you conclude synthetic is cheaper to run. Not everybody uses 3k for conventional and 15k for synthetic! Finally, you recently discussed a different set of intervals. Granted, it was someone else who brought up the other intervals, but I was glad to see you actually discuss the cost-effectiveness of intervals besides 3k dino and 15k synth.
For me, I buy my dino at < $1/qt. And not being interested in the cost, trouble, or bad impression (I'd be seen as a fanatic by my wife and family) of analysis, dino is much cheaper to run than synth since my comfortable synth change interval is only 2x dino.
bigorange, haven't you seen some of the discussion threads about Shaeffer's blend over on bob's board? I'm quite shocked to hear your thought that it can't be used past 3k miles. Seems pretty silly to me. Even conventional oil will do well past 3k in many cases.
I am glad that you got that 15k is not the "religious" high water mark! I have been known to deviate and change between 13.5k-14.5k If anything, I have advocated picking and choosing of ones "poison's" I have also been up front with the rationale's and cost 's. I have also said that even if you ignore the facts, ie cost more, cost less, can last longer, cant last longer etc that 3k and 15k can both take you to 250k. I have done it with BOTH kinds of oil synthetic AND conventional. Guarantees!!??? No NONE Nada Zippo with either conventional or synthetic! I also did not get the guaranteed catastrophic trouble that is threaten as repair hell at 250k for either synthetic or conventional oil either, for various and sundry violations
In one respect, I think that Mobil One got the marketing message given their sales and their steadfast belief when they first came out and said 25k ! I mean even Mobil One is not immune to wanting folks to buy their products, ie at a faster interval!! So they got with the program! On their web site they say anywhere from 3-15k. http://www.prod.mobil1.com/index.jsp Why Synthetics, FAQ
Do you really think Mobil One will call me to tell me not to change at 7500 K when I was used to doing 15k?
Gee, I don't know if I am not communicating or what, or if 3k is such an emotional issue that folks really don't HEAR what I say. OEM's such as Porsche, BMW, Corvette, MB, use and recommend up to 15k intervals with synthetic AND back it with warranty !!!! In addition all of these and/or more, except Corvette provide free oil changes for the length of the warranty!! 4/50k (you pay for it of course but even on your nickel they recommend and stand behind up to 15k intervals. So if I was the "lone" nut case saying 15k, sure dismiss it.
I am confused about the synthetic blend (25%) for Schaeffer's {@2.66 x 7qts = {18.62)}. You can mix Mobil One, (4 per) with Mobil conventional (1 per @ FOR 33% PAO x7qts= 2.31 qts x4= 9.24 and 1 x 4.69 qts= 4.69 plus 9.24=13.93) and get 33% PAO for {13.93} 8% more PAO and 25% cheaper. And to stay on track, for the difference of 4.69, I can buy two PF44 oil filters!!
http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/oil-life.html.
Above is a link to help you determine what it is you might want to achieve. It might also give some hint besides bobsoilguy as to the methodology.
americanflag: I would not worry about doing a virgin sample of mobil1. That has been done and those results are widely available. I would also not worry about TBN since you will be at about 20-40% of the life of the oil.
After reading about the K&N air filter, I have come to believe the air filter is perhaps more important than the oil filter. That is why I want to be sure the K&N is doing its job.
But I agree that lately this forum has been turned into a "Synthetic Oil #2" forum. Or possibly "Oil Analysis for Dummies"".
As others have pointed out, the other two top forums under "Oil" are specifically for the discussion of oil, not filters.
This forum has come to feel like the invasion of Mobil 1 products. Complete with "facts, figures and oil analysis results" to back up the supposed Mobil 1 superiority.
You can't even state an opinion about the use of real dino oil and inexpensive filters without being challenged to "prove it with "facts, figures and oil analysis results".
As wear is gradual and one can never prove oil was the culprit these warranties will never pay off
I also agree with you. I think that is probably why most OEM's give this type of warranty, for some unknown reason it sounds like a long time. Really if you look at it a typical warranty, ie like 3 yr 36k.. So if you drive 20k a year your warranty is up in less than two years. Your warranty is also up in 3 yrs whether you drive 3-36k miles. Also it is widely know in the industry and less advertised by the oil manufacturers, that most wear is caused by lack of oil flow during the start up procedure (due to the fact that 99/100% of the cars do no have preoilers. This is NOT mitigated by whether you have conventional or synthetic. There is some evidence that synthetic oil may ever so slightly cut down the time that it takes the oil to migrate to the wearing areas, but you are well past the time and mileage of the warranty to make the oem pay for it anyway.
If anyone has noticed this and has cut open the new (black) filter, please comment on if there is still a bypass in this filter.
Should the bypass valve be readily identifiable even for someone, such as me, who has absolutely no idea what to look for?
I'll have to keep my eyes peeled for the ST2808 on my next trips to local Wal-Marts. It seems odd that Wal-Mart would revise the filter and packaging but choose to discontinue the filter's production/sale. I do recall not seeing the ST2808 on a recent trip to Wallyville, so maybe they are indeed on the way out.
I hope they haven't gone to virtual bypass valves. LOL
Schaeffer's Blend can be had from the web site: www.schaefferoil.com for 4.50 per qt. MIN of 12 quarts not including UPS shipping.
Based on that, the use of Schaeffer's Blend costs MORE than Mobil One. If you add in the UPS shipping it costs still more! Also in more than one place they indicate that the 5w-30 product meets the older SJ standard. The SL standard was not mentioned.
Perhaps I didn't give the secret club sign or signal when I perused the site. :}
Cut it up, you'll see how it's made....not a great design in my opinion.
Rando
The BOBISTHEOILGUY oil filter page has a thread with some good pictures buy the way...
http://members.aol.com/phundotcom/oil.htm
A fellow called Patman took some good pics.
Zr2rando: I saw that link on Bob's yesterday and I was afraid that is what had happened to my beloved ST2808. I agree with you, this is an inferior design to what it used to be. And there are much better bypasses available, such as the one used on the ST3950.
They gave us the better filtration media at the cost of a cheaper bypass valve.
Personally, I'd use a different brand if the model I used required the internal bypass (My Nissan truck in my case I use the Motorcraft (purolator clone). I do use the non bypass version that my Chevy trucks use (ST3980).
Their building a Honda dealership in my town currently, so before long I'll have easy access to OEM parts. Maybe they'll carry the Filtech filter.