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Oil Filters, whose is best, and Why?
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Comments
A further aside in my case is in 250k miles I use 17 filters (15k intervals vs 84 filters 3k intervals) so again to put numbers to it 34 dollars vs 255. or at 3k intervals 168 and 1260.
Having run a TLC for app 250k miles with 17 FRAM filters and Mobil One synthetic oil with 15k intervals, I had 2200 dollars in unscheduled repairs. NONE were oil related. If you want the actual parts, I can list, but I don't want to bore folks.
Keep in mind that a 1000 dollar repair (or more) may or may not be guaranteed and whether it is forstalled or not is definitely not guaranteed. (this sentence is where the critical path actually leads)
Again on an older 70Vw using conventional 30w oil and NO oil filter (oil screen for those that are familar) I went 255k miles and had even less in dollar unscheduled repairs again NONE were oil related !!!! I needed a clutch at 115k and it cost 109 dollars and a case of Heinken
I realize the large repair is not gauranteed but just reducing the chances of it are attractive to me.
-Kent
Americanflag's arguement is not one of cost as he has proven cost is no object. His arguement is one that says higher flow is more important than better filtration. That's the only point worthy of debate here.
Perceptive! you say I don't use 3k intervals when I have told you several times that I use 15k intervals? How many times do you need to hear 15k intervals and really get that the 3k is what is commonly touted as being correct? So, if you don't mind sharing what intervals do you use? Or more germane to the discussion what do you think most folks use as an interval? To reject the augment and logic because the figures are not exact is very short sighted.
Mine is 15k max or one year. Mobil One is specified. Up to 15k and or one year is in the owners manual.
So for me, it is getting as easy as: see where you wish to be and pay your money and take your chances. I think at this juncture of 2144 postings, we pretty much know how the products function.
Orange, if you change out your K&N this soon, you aren't giving it a chance to hit it's peak performance. As it gets dirtier, it filters better. Also, how do you know your engine analysis will not come back with low Si?
Alot of enthusiast use the K&N Air filter and do NOT use the Mobil 1 oil filter.
The truth is while it is a valid concern, it is baseless. Let me put it another way. IF Mobil One oil filters cost like what AC Delco PR-44 and PF-53 and or Super Tech ST equivilents @1.97 I would RUN to buy Mobil One filters. For my .02cents I would strongly consider Mobil One oil filters even at twice the price (4 dollars) They ARE better made and also they do filter better and flow the correct volume of oil. (In all fairness, the others flow the correct vol of oil, also) I frequent two Corvette forums and no one who uses Mobil One filters reports loss in oil pressure due to Mobil One oil filters. The population also uses synthetic oil. Again Corvettes are equiped with an oil temperature as well as oil pressure gauge. For the amount of power these engines can generate at 6200- 6500 rpm and torque 385-400 # ft, oil flow is even more critical.
Americanflag: mobil1 filter price would not be an issue if they were really better. The tighter filtration restricts the flow to the point that it is unhealthy for the engine. Post #2147 should put that to bed.
me: I agree with ruking1 and his assessment of the quality. I don't believe he is underestimating the quality and performance of the mobil1. I, however, am willing to pay the small increase in cost because of the potential that this better quality MIGHT deliver long term.
I don't think there is any other evidence that any of us are going to bring to bear to convince either of the other of us to change. Therefore, how about let's move on to another subject.
Ok, confession over.
Motor oil going around an internal combustion engine picks up carbon/water/combustion by-products...filters only take out solid particles, nothing else. A clean filter takes out particles at whatever size it is rated to take out, and after it gets a little dirty it starts taking out some smaller particles due to partial blockage due to particulate load.
Filters do not have any effect on PH or detergents or deterioration of oil due to vaporization of lights or oxidation....
Changing the oil is the only way to get the oil back to new specs.
A high efficiency filter will take out more particles from the git-go and do a better job of keeping the oil physically clean starting from day-1 than a filter with a lower efficiency...
Any excessive dirt/carbon producing engine will fill up a high efficiency filter quicker, unless the high efficiency filter has added media to enable a longer service life.
It's a personal call how long you want to count on a given filter to take out whatever particle size you are concerned with before you need to change out filter/oil/ or filter & oil....
Some oils may actually resist oxidation/ph change/detergent degrade better than others, but the filter is only working on physical particles..only a press. diff. indicator can tell you when the filter is full,, and a bypass would have activated by then anyway....sending unfiltered oil down the line...
long story short- I change oil at 3k miles so I don't care about exact timing and maximum efficiency usage of oil/filters... I just don't push it in other words.
Like I said before, the application determines the required equipment, my application dictates 3k changes($7 a pop) work just fine. Others would benefit from other (longer intervals or higher efficiency filters..)which is fine as well.. Modern equipment and newer materials does give us more options, but old fashioned mechanics and physics and chemistry still hold true....
Rando
use Mobil 1 oil, a regular quality filter and change every 3,000 miles?
http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/oil-life.html
If you want to change your oil every 3K, and probably nothing wrong with that as Rando points out, why spend the $$$'s on Mobil 1 when so many other quality dino oils...Castrol, Pennzoil, Chevron, etc., will generate the same or better wear results as Mobil 1 for less $$$? I mean look at the UOA results at Bob's place for Chevron oil. Or Castrol results at the Maxima. org site. Not bad!
Rando is right. Its a personal call. Just don't over analysis it. Either way, you won't be wrong. Good luck.
I mentioned it only because you dismissed the 3,000 interval in ruking's example. Sure, ruking doesn't employ a 3k change interval, but many people do. So it seems relevant, at least in my view, to include a 3k change interval in a discussion on filter cost. 3k IS a common interval, even for many synthetic users.
I don't have the filters you have in your possession, but I have compared these filters and unless they have changed they are not the same. It is possible to have the same specs on paper without having anything else in common.
I have never made it a secret that "economics" has been one of the weighed values in this topic of engine lubrication and filtering. Usefulness has been another. There is simply so much choice with today's superior synthetic and conventional oil and superior and cheaper filtering products, one certainly does not have to stick to the old tried and true 3k interval. Using my 70 VW example the practice has been outmoded for at least 33 years. While brought up in the "old" school since I was a boy, I for one think the good old days of lubrication is NOW !!!! I have helped my father de gunk FAR too many sludged engines (before you can adequately repair them. to think otherwise.
So for example, in the case of Mobil One, K and N, AC Delco, Wally Mart Super Tech, etc (I do not intend to leave any others out or intimate that others are not synthetic when they indeed are) have all been synthetic media for a while. Convention as well as synthetic oil now have the SL rating. What does that mean in terms of the old 3k mile parameter? SL ratings have to pass a RIGOROUS torture test where the oil has to remain clean and usable for 4,000 miles !!!!!!! Trust me, the average consumer is not going to torture it as greatly as the test calls for. What is the usefulness of this new 4,000 mile parameter? If you change your oil at 3k you are leaving 33% of your MONEY on the table !!!!!!! In other words you are not getting 1000 miles of lubrication that you have already paid.
But if you look at the options and choices the numbers become MUCH WORSE. Rando posted that he pays 7 bucks a pop for a 3k oil change. I would assume a wallymart filter at 1.97 and buck a quart of oil for 5 qts =7 bucks a pop. OK sound cheap enough? Me on the other hand for a 15k oil change pay 2 bucks a pop for a AC Delco or wallymart filter and 3.67 per quart for 7 qts= 27.69 . GEEZ Obviously I am getting ripped off on one hand and paying a premuim (to be nice and civil). The numbers might hide the real truth. PER MILE LUBRICATED is the real product, good and or service. So the upshot using the above intervals is that the conventional oil change costs 26% MORE "per mile lubricated" than the much more expensive synthetic oil change.
So, would I have been better off changing the oil at 4.5k intervals using regular oil? I think so in this case. Does synthetic oil make your engine last longer? I doubt it. I have never seen one wear out with regular oil changes. I was tiring to extend the drain intervals for convenience using Mobil 1.
Y'all be standing around goin...uh huh, yup, I told him he's just throwin it all down the drain!
I'll say nop, it's a goin rit down this here hole I dug, and in about amillion years I'm gonna use it agin!!
Y'all git me anuther beer wud ya?
I guess I'm old school huh?
Y'all enjoy the afternoon..
No sir! If you had been using the conventional oil at winter temperatures you would have created even more of a metal on metal on goo (conventional oil when cold, flows like molasses) stress! It is obvious that you have a mechanical concern that should be diagnosed isolated and fixed if need be. You could do oil analysis but in that sense it might be a tad late in that the oil analysis is useful for TREND management, you dont have a trend you have a perceived problem!!! So I would bring it into my fav mechanic. Best of luck! Let us know what it is once you have it confirmed.
Quote
"So the upshot using the above intervals is that the conventional oil change costs 26% MORE "per mile lubricated" than the much more expensive synthetic oil change."
Unquote
To keep with an apples to apples comparison I should have figured the synthetic at 5 qts to equal the conventional's 5 quarts. So when you do the math: the conventional oil change costs 42% more than the seemingly more expensive synthetic oil change !!!
Gee, it was FAR WORSE (38%) than I even thought!!
I really doubt that the oil has caused this problem.
I just changed the oil and it took about a week and stopped. If it only ticks 1-2 times after sitting overnight and then quiets up, I would just do a couple quickie oil changes to try and do some easy cleaning, if it ticks longer you may want to check the lifters and the pushrods and replace or clean as neccessary..
I'd be a little leary of the 9k oil changes personally
The rest of your post: "That's why I don't see it as reasonable to use 3K in a reasonable ECONOMIC calculation with mobil1 oil. Yes, some may use that interval but its because they are misinformed that it might actually give them better performance. Its seems much more appropriate to do a performance vs. cost evaluation."
I don't really care what you think is 'reasonable.' If people are doing it, it's worth talking about. You don't see anyone else here saying 'it is totally unreasonable to spend $12 on an oil filter, so we shouldn't even be talking about it.'
What I wanted to mention, though, is why do most folks' (including me) cost comparisons typically NOT include the cost of oil analysis in the synthetic side of the equation? Sure, you might be able to stop doing the analysis once a comfort level is established, but many analysis proponents seem to have analysis done at every change interval.
bluedevils #2171: The mobil1 filter does cost more but I believe it is better. Others have verified that it is. The only real question is whether or not the increased performance is worth the increased cost. Until I get evidence that another filter is as good, I am betting my filter money on the mobil1. The fact that a 3k interval change for mobil1 oil has been proven many times to be unnecessary and that's why its not worth considering. There is no such data for the filter.
I think there are at least 4 options:
1 If what is good for the goose (synthetic) is good for the gander (conventional) . So why don't conventional oil users do oil analysis!!?? Logic would dictate that "IF" I am using the lesser lasting product, I should find out if that "cheaper" (but in reality more expensive) product is really doing its job!! ????
2. If I were an oil company, why would I want you to buy a CHEAPER product, when I can sell you a 42% MORE EXPENSIVE product? AND get you to structurally throw out 33% or more of the products usefull life?
3. Even though most the SL version products are on the market, the oil companies have not aggressively advertised that the conventional SL product version meets the new 4000 mile torture test!? They do say however that it is improved!
4. If one wants a cleaner engine and longer wearing parts, why are most people using conventional oil when conventional oil has been shown to have less resistance to sludging and wears parts faster than synthetic oil.
5. Conventional oil truly APPEARS cheaper. As in a prior post, I have show that oil change for oil change, you come up with far less money, 7. dollars for conventional vs 20.35 dollars for synthetic or almost 3x more for synthetic. (2.91 x actually)
6. To my way of thinking, one should be more skeptical of the conventional oil as opposed to the reality that folks are more skeptical of the synthetic oil!
7. I will stay away from the discussion on the psychological, sociological, environmental, national security implications,world wide security, economical, etc. etc. effects and affects of structurally not importing 42% less oil.
I may start letting my oil changes go to 3.5 or maybe 4k given that oil is better these days
(one of my ChemE texts mentions hydrocracking as common practise for making fuels from heavy base stocks, but doesn't actually say that lube oils were made using it...copyright date was 1977...)
This will really kill those economics numbers huh?
Actually I don't have a problem with the 3k changes...I kindof use it do an overall inspection, every 3k miles I know if any new leaks have started or if anything else is starting to show up, while I'm under the vehicle I check everything I can see...
I would however say that All-Swoon and Jiffy-Tube definitely have a racket going for most folks, but then again,,,,regular maintenance, by definition, is a regular thing,,,better to do it a little more often than required than less often...or worse yet...after the fact.
We gonna have that beer?
Rando
MB
BMW etc
2000 MB E320 up to 15k. They us a propriatery 0w-40 synthetic
2000 BMW 330i up to 15k. They also use a propriatery 0w-40 or 0w-50? synthetic.
Since MB and BMW provide the oil during new car warranty they 1. do not run afoul of anti trust laws. 2.can get away with making you use their oil. The hope is after the warranty that you will want to or continue to pay the very high per quart charge, and buy through the OEM logistical chain.
Corvette's up to 15k. They recommend GM4178M spec or in the Queen's English 5w-30 or 10w-30, Mobil One synthetic. Since they require a specification, they do not run afoul of anti trust laws.
I don't really enjoy changing my oil every 6 month or 3000 miles, but it has kept my last 20 cars going for 100000 or more miles with no engine work due to improper lubrication. At 100000 I have had the things so long, 7 years or more, that I am more than ready to get rid of them anyway. In the case of most of them everything but the engine is worn out by then.
Anyway, if I have to pay an additional $20 or so for an analysis to see if I can save $15 on my next oil change it hardly seems like a bargain.
If so I have a hard time seeing any savings over using GTX and ST filters as I have been.