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Oil Filters, whose is best, and Why?
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"The Mobil1 element is stronger and thicker than the Purolator, but they claim that it flows just as good as paper. As with the other low-end Wix filters, it has no internal sealing problems. The $10 price tag is a bit steep, but it is the best filter you can buy retail. Watch for “Mobil 1 Oil Change” sales, which includes 5 quarts of Mobil 1 synthetic oil and a Mobil 1 filter. Granted, there are probably better filters available through mail order, but I haven't tested those yet"
How thorough was the study? Did he actually test filtration - first pass, subsequent passes, etc.
I still haven't heard anything that convinces me it's 'worth it.' For some people, the fact that it's 'the best' is enough. For me, it's not.
Anyway, I'm good for a while now with filters, but am still waiting for the 5qt jugs of Mobil 1 to come back.
On Bob's board, many think a high flowing filter leads to better results in the oil analysis.
Also, I don't get the importance of the Mobil 1 having this super high burst strength. Who ever heard of a decent filter bursting on startup?
If Mobil 1 really makes a superior filter that produces superior results, I would like to know because I would BUY it! But so far, I am not convinced, one internet post from a well meaning person is not proof.
Big orange, do you have before and after oil analysis on the results of the Mobil 1? Are you seeing a tangible difference in the oil analysis?
I hear your arguement about increased flowrate providing better lubrication. Its really all a matter what temperature the oil and parts the oil come in contact with reaches. A dino may be in more danger with a tight filter than a syn is on a directional basis but I still doubt it will drive the flowrate down to an unhealthy level.
I follow Bob's board too and have seen no convincing data that says higher flow actually produces better results.
If you are really that concerned about flow, do you use the 0W30 Mobil1 instead of the 5W30 or 10W30? The 0W30 will deliver more flow since it is thinner.
I do not have before and after analysis. I didn't need this to be convinced. I use it because it filters better. I am more interested in evaluating the air filter (K&N vs. paper) that we have talked about before. I can't do both at the same time. I may eventually do the more open oil filter but it will take a couple of years since I only change my oil about every 5-6 months or about 7500 - 8000 miles.
My situation is that I put very little milage on my '01 Millenia. Actually an average of only about 5 miles per day except for occasionally longer trips such as vacation. I am over 60, and all my life have understood that the major problem with long oil changes is a buildup of acids in the oil. Because of such a low milage average I make it a point to change my oil at no more than a 6 month interval. Of course that is at very low milage, usually less than 3000 miles.
My trips are almost all in excess of 15 miles, and the engine always reaches normal operating temperature for a good period of time on all trips.
Expense is no object, because my $1.97 ST filter and about $1.37 per quart average for Castrol GTX Drive Hard comes to less than $10.00.
Back to my point. I see no evidence that any filter would neutralize the acid build-up in the oil. So what argument is there to justify NOT changing my oil on this schedule?
I also believe something that was written on bob's board. "If a filter was not necessary, auto makers would not put one on their products. They are looking for every way they can to cut costs."
I would not reccomend extending any oils interval more than 3000 miles except a synthetic. The filter does not affect the drain interval.
Acid is not the only thing to look at in an oil. The TBN is a measure of the Total BASE Number which the opposite of acid. I guess the acid breaks down the additive package since I understand that the TBN is a good measure of the additives you have left in your oil. measuring TBN and wear metals in an oil analysis will tell you if you have taken the oil too far. Don't take dinos past 3000 miles period. Well, some have had good success with Chevron Supreme with higher than a 3000 mile drain interval.
What is even more noteworthy is that it went app 3000 between oil changes and 1500 in the winter. The oil was not even in the same league as today's SL rated brands AND it ran leaded gasoline!!! It as folks know an air cooled, 4 cylinder, ran freeway speeds of 70-80 mph and even got 34-36 mpg with freeway driving.
Would I run a modern day engine with no filter? Gosh no! Keep in mind also that todays gas engine and oil run much much much cleaner than the above 70 VW.
Then why is it relavant to the discussion? I must admit, you had me going at first.
"If flow is the most important thing, then just run with no filter. I know some here have suggested that you would be OK. I don't buy it. I challenge you to do this if you really believe this theory of flow over filtration. I would be interested in seeing oil analysis results of 3000 miles without using a filter vs. 3000 miles with whatever filter you want to choose. If higher flow will provide better lubrication, this should be the ultimate test.
I also believe something that was written on bob's board. "If a filter was not necessary, auto makers would not put one on their products. They are looking for every way they can to cut costs." UNQUOTE
If you did not post this, I stand corrected. If you did, I am responding in the affirmative to this above quote.
If you recycle the oil it is not wasted. So what's the point for an individual to do it? I do understand fleets doing the analysis as it can be applied across the board. But I see no way for a person with one or two cars to gain anything by doing so.
If you are really curious and the cost is justified to you for that reason, that might be rationalized. But how do you think it pays off in reality?
Jack
You touched on some great points. 1. if all you do is change oil at 3000 miles you don't REALLY know the condition of the oil. What you are assuming the procedure done at 3000 miles takes care of business. 2. the traditional role of oil analysis is for cost optimization AND fleet maintenance and trend repair. 3. it is a great way for someone who is skeptical of longer drain intervals to get objective and specific numbers. 4. I have 4 vehicles andIf I had any misgivings I would do the oil analysis, but I personally dont like getting or getting the oil changed every 3k and the 13-15k interval works well for me.
My aside is that, I wouldn't. The other aside is that even if I had synthetic oil I would have not run 15k intervals especially the oil filter but have NO hesitation with today's situation. So in that macro sense the situation today is literally @ least 3 to 5x better.
Not only that the oil filter now (that I buy) are cheaper and filter better than the ones I used back then on other cars.
I disagree. You state this as fact with no evidence to back it up. If it is so clear to you that the car can run without a filter, you would run it that way. The reason you don't run it without a filter is because you believe in your mind that it would be harmful.
There are 2 old sayings that apply here:
Actions speak louder than words.
and
Put your money where your mouth is.
What I am saying is that all that needs to be done is to put something in the place of the oil filter and it will run just fine. I cite the evidence as a VW engine that does not come standard with an oil filter. It is you that hasnt cited any evidence AND I personally have app 250k miles running with NO filter to back it up! Why are we trying to reinvent the wheel here? What you are asserting flies in the face of automotive history. The VW air cooled 4 cylinder engine has been probably the most popular engine created. (for purposes of this topic, NO oil filter)
Your 1970 VW evidence has no relevance because over 99.999% of cars are not old VWs. Modern engines can't tolerate it. The fact that you won't run without a filter even though you have seen it work in the distant past is tremendous evidence for me that newer cars can't handle it.
I challeneged americanflag to put his money where his mouth is just like I did you. I practice what I believe or strive to as much as I can anyway. Those that don't risk losing credibility.
The parts market also SELLS BILLIONS upon BILLIONS of those filters and at a very high profit margin!!! Let me put it another way. IF the auto manufacturer's were on the hook to supply FREE life time/life long filters what is the most likely thing you think they would do? Not a stretch here, Hitler did it in the VW, run without oil filtering. So if WALLY MART can sell a very high quality Champion Labs brand for 1.97 would you consider that they are not making it for 2 dollars a filter?
Another for example MD E320 includes free maintenance ie oil and filter change at the computer indication or 15k. They will charge you in addition if you want the oil changed at the stereo typical 3k interval! Now no one would think that MB is not charging for this FREE service!!?? But it is on your nickel and even then it is upon computer indication and or 15k.
Its difficult to continue this discussion without you telling me:
Why do you use an oil filter?
Second point. No, analysis does not pay off if you change every 3000 miles. (only if it prematurely detects glycol) Even if it found excessive wear what can the ave driver do about it, almost nothing. So, unless you have an interest in extended drains and nothing else to do with time or money don't do analysis. It rarely pays off. I have been doing it for 11 years and other then great info on when to change I could have goen the same distance with dino and 3000 mile changes.
As to filters and why manufacturers keep them if they serve no purpose. well, I feel they serve only a catastrophic purpose and also that filter manufacturers like oil companies are in bed together to some degree. Mobil has its line of filters and how many auto companies own stock in Wix, Champion, Baldwin etc.
I concur, we need a test of a run with filter vs no filter with analysis on both>
On the 70 VW I didn't use one because it was not there. I could have very easily installed an add on kit. To me it was one thing less to buy and install and one less thing to go wrong and app 85 less oil filters to hit the landfill. On my new cars there is no reasonable alternative to a contraption that keeps the oil from leaking out. As you probably have read on other threads I change my oil and filter on 15k intervals. So the synthetic oil and filter enable me to do up to 5x less oil changes. So for four vehicles in the course of a year, I do app 4 oil changes per year vs 20. That for me is a cost benefit AND cost beneficial, not to mention not changing the oil 16 times. There was no way I would have gone over 3000k per interval with that VW era's oil and VW's filter element.
So if folks are changing oil at 3000 miles with today's far superior oil, not to mention synthetic, then no, there is no cost benefit. So if using crappy oil and NO filter with 3k intervals, let me get up to 250k miles and get 30-36 mph. I know also for certain that synthetic oil and "crappy" FRAM filters let me sell a Toyota Landcruiser with Coincidently app 250k miles with 15k intervals.(didn't get near the gas mileage however). So over the cost of 105k miles I will use 7 oil filters. So the proper apples to apples comparison would be 250k, 15k interval= 17 oil filters vs3k intervals=84 So I see using 17 oil filters as a minor annoyance in 250k miles :)I also must add that most folks both in vol and % remain unimpressed with synthetic oil. I would guess that I am not one of them.
But like you would probably agree: pay your money take your chances. Also if all I did was fix the 70 VW instead of getting vehicles after it. I would easily be $200-250k richer! But for obvious reasons, nursing a car pass 1M miles is a herculean task. I was luck to select a car with almost commoditized spare parts!
I'm glad to see a Chem Eng viewpoint on here..
I particularly remember how the pressure drop across the filter was the best indicator of when the filter needed changing, I remember seeing how the filter actually was doing a better job as it got partially filled with particulate, and then at a certain point there was a radical increase in the pressure drop/decrease in flow....best time to change filter was just before that point obviously...
Too bad cars don't come with "press drop across the filter" indicators...
It seems that for most folks a 3k mile oil change would come before that spike in pressure drop at the filter...
By any chance does Bigorange have anything to do with Tennessee?
WAREAGLE!!!!!
see y'all
Rando
I disagree with folks that say filters are not neccessary, by the way
Mobil 1 has not helped the situation, they provide very little information or research on the Mobil 1 filter.
Again, if someone could show me some evidence that the Mobil 1 filter actually worked better in practice, I would use it in a second. So far this hasn't happened.
First of all the Mobil One filter is an excellent filter. I would have no hesitation in using it. But you are using the "bang for the buck" filter, no pun intended
I too remember those filtration labs in college. Yes, I too remember that the best filtration happens toward the end of the filter's life. The cake of filtrate builds up and the extra material make the fluid's path more tortuous thereby removing smaller and smaller particles. At that point the pressure drop increases at an exponential rate.
I am curious as to what filter you think is best and do you use it or something else. As a fellow chemical engineer, do you think flow is what is most important in engine lubrication?
My thoughts are as follows:
The flow cools the parts. The material composition is responsible for the lubrication. The two do, however, work together. If the parts get too hot, they are softer and more easily worn. The clearances also get narrower increasing the wear. The base oil, the additives and the contaminants all go into what COF the fluid has. Gradually, over the life of the oil, the COF increases because the contaminants (metals from the wear and dirt or sand from the air) increase and the additives break down. I also believe, although I am not sure of this, that the base does not break down until the additives are depleted. It would be nice to have an oil expert tell us if this is true. I believe any filter on the market delivers adequate flow for most cars on the market. That's why I concentrate on filtration when I look for the best filter.
How do see this stuff zr2rando?
Since I am going to keep changing the oil at 15k intervals, I may as well change the 2 buck filter too! It is only less than 15 inches away! (life is extremely tough!
To add to the above discussion, I do have oil pressure and oil temperature sensors. I have not noticed any pressure drop either in the new oil and filter and or towards the end of the "useful oil life" in my case 13-15k.
I wonder if they have the same "non" filter?
I am not surprised that you don't see an decrease in oil pressure over the life of the oil/filter. These things have a huge safety margin. Do you have higher or lower pressure with any given filter vs. another? Is there any oil temperature rise under any certain circumstances? You could give us some valuable information with your sensors.
I use the Walmart filters, I do 3k oil changes with Chevron/Havoline oil so I am really not pushing the filter too hard. I choose higher flow over the higher efficiency filtration that the higher $$$ filters stress, I figure that the Walmart filters do well enough for 3k miles ( I know they say that they filter at a high efficiency and maybe they really do (I have not tested them), They look well constructed internally so I trust them for 3k miles.
Basically, I learned that the purpose of the filter is to filter out the harmfull size particles and let the rest go through...the fluid flow is the "prime directive" as the saying goes....the filter just "keeps it honest" in my opinion...
Good ol' Rocky Top,,,Rocky Top Tennessee!!!
Been there, sung it
Rando
The filter does it's job, the lubricant does it's job, we just go home to mama....
The mechanics of lubrication and filtration are still what they were when we learned them, we just have the benefit of newer materials.......
As always the application dictates the filtration/flow requirements, some of us are filtering oil, others are filtering at a cellular level...as they say..the flow must go on..
On top of ol Smoky,,,,you remember that one?
evening y'all
Rando...this is really bringing back some memories!
Since I do not track the vehicle, the hottest my oil has ever gotten was 260 degrees at app 5400 ft in Death Valley, CA (104 degrees ambient, nice cool day) at Bad Water(-282 ft), but on the way UP to Dante's View (5475 ft). It is an unusually steep grade and of course the wife and I had air conditioning set to 66 degrees. It was an absolutely spectacular view, although it was probably more like 99 degrees up on Dante's View. On the way down the oil temp dropped down to 240 degrees and below. If memory serves me correctly oil temperature was like 204-208 cruising the desert. Again the AC was a hummin.
Also I am glad that the Chem Engineer sez the Wal Mart Super Tech passes muster, as a few folks have well noted (including myself)on this thread
I over amped a bit and got app 120k more to go on one brand of filter.
#2119
Yes, Inquiring minds do want to know!! For old times sake, it would also be interesting to hear if some folks are running VW Bugs with synthetic oil also!
I sometimes wonder if those having trouble with a K&N Air Filter are not giving it enough of a chance in terms of time on the car. After the first 10k miles, it will filter better. I am planning on not changing my until 50k.
With regards to oil filters, I have heard conflicting evidence about how long the filters last before needing to be changed. I am staying with 3k interval changes on oil filters, I do not want it to clog and go into bypass.
And finally, regarding the Mobil 1 filter, no one seems to be commenting on my point that Mobil 1 has not provided any EVIDENCE or STUDIES showing their filter works better in real world applications. Would you not agree this is their responsibility if people are going to spend 3x more for their oil filters?
"And finally, regarding the Mobil 1 filter, no one seems to be commenting on my point that Mobil 1 has not provided any EVIDENCE or STUDIES showing their filter works better in real world applications. Would you not agree this is their responsibility if people are going to spend 3x more for their oil filters? "
Well that is not quite the case and the fact that perhaps they are aiming at a smaller target market/audience. Of course they would love to totally be unable to keep up with overwhelming demand, but the real subtle effects are not sound bite able. so that is reflected in their much higher price. As you have said (3x more), and in my example of a AC Delco or Super Tech filter @ 2 bucks vs a Mobil One filter @ 13 bucks (7x more)
They go into detail and if you pencil in some numbers , you can get the benefits. So without advertising for them, the Mobil One filter filters smaller particles that normal filters do not catch. Those smaller particles (when and if present) can cause 40% of wear DUE TO OIL and that is of the 40% total of the wear that is due to oil!! (are we confused yet?) BUT and I do mean a BIG BUT, if you use synthetic oil, that fact alone can decrease this wear portion in half (20%) OR MORE for a grand total, again if present of 16%. MAX to a more likely scenario of 8%. The truth is that it is far less than the 8-16% I have used, for illustration's sake.
So over the course of say 250,000 miles does it make sense to spend 1100 dollars MORE for Mobil One oil filters for a hypothetical repair that would cost say 1000 dollars that may or may not be "theoretically forestalled 8-16% longer that you would have to pay anyway?
First practical question is: how many of you folks keep a car 250,000 miles and beyond?
(Any car can with reasonable care and just conventional 2 dollar filters and 1 per quart oil go 250k.)
Are Mobil One premuim filter better than the average run of the mill filters? Absolutely!! Positively!