Oil Filters, whose is best, and Why?

wain · February 2003

The wix and the penske oil filters I cut open had only about 1/2 - 60% of the can filled with an element, so don't assume you get a longer filter media with a longer filter.

americanflag · February 2003

would make the oil analysis show different results then say, a Motorcraft or a cheap filter?

ruking1 · February 2003

#2032

That would be a good shoot out!

armtdm · February 2003

Personally, I dont' think so. In fact, on another site better results were obtained by a Fram and the reasoning being that they felt better flow caused less wear then more filtering power and more restriction which caused the Mobil 1 to go into bypass more often. The poor Fram construction etc. permitted much better oil flow and flow may be more important then density in media

wain · February 2003

an empty can with a screen mech inside it like the old VW bugs.
re: oil flow - seems like the oil pump would determine flow, not the filter.

PS vw bugs are still sold in Mexico - I went to Cancun recently, lots of newer VW bugs - a simple car - wish they were still sold here tho they had drawbacks.

ruking1 · February 2003

Since I had a 1970 VW with over 245k when I sold it. I can say that was one car that you HAD to change the oil every 1500 miles in winter and MAX 3000 miles, the other three seasons. (maybe this is the psychological reason I now like 15k oil change intervals

{a reaction to Hitler's revenge})

For some unknown reason, I never managed to strip any of the nut threads or warp the oil screen and or plate!! I shudder now to think that the oil gaskets were made out of some grade of cardboard!!! Bottom line: I don't miss at all the screeen cleaning and oil change intervals !!!

texasjeep · February 2003

armtdm
So Fram filters are the best to get?

Bascially the fram filter could allow you to go longer on oil changes but it doesn't filter well and you could have some problems?
Does everyone bash Fram only because of the studies done on the filters?
How many people have had real experiences with failures that could be related to fram filters?
This is one reason why I am leaning towards filters not being all that important.

ruking1
Why did you have to use those change intervals for the VW?

ruking1 · February 2003

#2037

It is easy to bash FRAM because it is made cheaply. Two things lead me to agree with Armtdm 1. my app 250k miles using 15k intervals with Mobil One 5w-30 oil and FRAM filters. 2. Some one recently posted a study that showed OEM Toyota filters UNsatisfactory compared to a satisfactory FRAM filter. (I use OEM Toyota filters and will no longer buy them) {but the real acid test is in the below paragraph}

Back then in 1971-1980 the conventional oil didnt even know what the SL rating was! So the problem was sludge sludge sludge. Oils today are WAY superior to the oils in the above time frame. Also I ran the VW to app 225 miles before I sold it. READ: 225,000 miles WITHOUT an oil filter!!! AND air cooled to boot!!

Keep in mind that this VW ran the dreaded leaded fuel and both the engine and the oil ran far dirtier than todays products!!! It would be interesting with a valve and ring job for the VW to see what the change intervals could be for Mobil One 5w-30 SL version!!

fleetwoodsimca · February 2003

Okay, I'll bite! How about telling us how many engine parts were the original factory stuff, by the time you sold the rig at 225K? Rings, pistons, cylinders, connecting rods, bearings, etc. Was the crankshaft ever turned? I spent a little time helping my VW driving friends work on their cars, back in the 60's. Most of these cars were far from untouched by the time they got up to high mileage. I never saw any that didn't have lots of replacement parts in the engines and transaxles.

ruking1 · February 2003

#2039

The religious things that you had to do in a 70VW bug: 1. change oil religiously. 2. Next critical thing was adjust the valves. 3. The oil filtered air intake could store a lot of crud, so cleaning and reoiling the intake system was another semi religious thing to do.

The clutch on the 4 speed lasted about 125k? Tires lasted about 45-50k, Shocks about the same. Ditto on the front end stabilizer. And you also had to be careful not to gas ones' self to death (what is it with German cars and leaking exhaust gases) due to the heating system. Tune ups were pretty regular and about every so often you had to run a carb tune up routine. Brakes, I don't remember. And I had to buy a new exhaust extractor about every one and half years. With gas at 29 cents? I used to get 30-34 mpg. This was all during college and 5 years of armed services duty, so a lot of trips skiing and multiple trips across country. Imagine going cross country for 32 dollars in gas?

americanflag · February 2003

Si in the oil from a cheaper filter with supposedly less flow restriction than the Mobil 1 if I am reading it correctly. bigorange, this is why I am considering staying with the Motorcraft filter vs the Mobil 1.

This is also why I am going with 3,000 mile oil change intervals even though I am using Mobil 1. I am thinking the best oil filter is an oil change.

kansan · February 2003

I called the Champion Labs Tech Hotline to see if there were any internal differences (anti-drainback valves etc.) between the Supertech ST3675 (AC PF59 equivalent) and the ST3506 (AC PF44 equivalent). The tech. told me the only difference was the length of the filter, the anti-drain back valves and everything else was made identical. He said he couldn't recommend I use the 3675 instead of the 3506 for liability reasons (such as the longer filter getting punctured or rubbing on something due to the extra length), but if I assure there is adequate clearance to use the longer filter, there would be no adverse affect concerning the filtering function. I also asked the type of anti-drainback valves they had and he informed me that the ST3675 and 3506 both have identical nitrile valves. Although I've heard it from people on this board I had to ask which filters they made and the top to bottom of their lineup so I could here it directly from them. Following are some of the filters Champion makes from the top of the line on down:
Best - 1) Mobil 1, 2) Bosch Premium, 3) Supertechs, 4) STPs and some others that I didn't write down.
By the way, the number for the Champion Labs Hotline is 1-800-882-0890 in case you have similar questions.

americanflag · February 2003

in the world of engine lubrication you are on tricky ground. Sometimes I feel like we are like the Spanish explorer Ponce de Leon searching for The Fountain of Youth.

I am a Mobil 1 fan. But the argument is that their best filter, the Mobil 1, while having a higher level of screening for particles, also inhibits oil flow more than a cheaper filter which screens less effectively. Thus, the results in oil analysis can actually be better with the "cheaper" filter.

Another example is the K&N oil filter. It is also I believe made by Champion Labs and a "high end" oil filter, but it is designed with the opposite approach of the Mobil 1. It screens less, flows more. So there is a question of "which is best".

If I knew the Mobil 1 was the best, believe me, I would use it. Right now, I am leaning towards the Motorcraft (less restrictive) based on what I have read on Bob's board.

Also, 3000 interval oil changes.

americanflag · February 2003

sell or talk about pre-oilers?

I would only be interested in a by-pass filter if I were looking at extended drains.

lobsenza · February 2003

Send an email to me at LobsenzA@Rose-Grp.com

edwardn1 · February 2003

...both a toyota brand from the dealer and a fram ph8a. I knew from posts both here and at bobs board that the fram would be a disappointment. Could not believe how little oil was held in the filter by the badly fitting check valve. The cardboard end caps crumble when you so much as touch them. And the element itself, which of itself appeared to have a decent media, was not even in its pleating, but had big and small folds.The TOYOTA BRAND filter for a 4 cylinder 92 camry was very impressive. The filter was over half full of oil despite my efforts to drain it for days to reduce the mess of cutting it open. This proved the check valve really worked. THE PLEATING OF THE ELEMENT HAS TO BE SEEN TO BE BELIEVED. It uses a crystal overlap to help get in at least twice the surface area you would expect. To see this you have to cut into the media and pull it back. The rest of the filter was made well as far as I could see. This is the filter for four cyl. late model camry 92 and upwards, has anyone else cut one open?

bigorange30 · February 2003

on this site.

http://www.shoclub.com/

njgst99 · February 2003

i have a 99 GST. Around 62k, the oil pressure light starting going. its on more when im idling at a light. When im driving its off. The oil level is fine. I haven't had time to have this looked at and the cash either. So its been like that for 1k so far. any ideas on whats going on?

fleetwoodsimca · February 2003

You really need to provide a whole lot more information in order to start narrowing this down a bit. I'm stuck on the identification of the vehicle. What is a GST?

armtdm · February 2003

From low on oil to a sending switch to pump problems

mechanic4 · February 2003

I have had 2 problems caused by FRAM oil filters. The first was a Dodge Turbo Colt with 1.6L. The overhead cam seized and I found the glue that was used in the filter construction plugging the oil restriction orifice for the overhead cam. The second was a Mitsubishi 2.6L, the filter by-pass valve inside the filter failed and caused unfiltered oil to inter the engine. This caused the rod and main bearings to wear and knock. I've learned my lesson the hard way, now it your turn.

according2me · February 2003

the ratio between supertech and fram filters is growing steadily in favor of Fram. This phenomenon is duplicated in both of our local stores. Is this true elsewhere also.

Our local K-mart is closing, but Target is opening soon. Do they have a store brand built by Champion or Wix?

I guess it's time for me to start hoarding the ST2808s

alternator · February 2003

used to carry oil and air filters (mostly Fram), but they no longer carry either item in any brand.

bluedevils · February 2003

Don't seem to carry oil filters any more.

Our Wal-Marts also seem to be allocating more shelf space to the Fram oil filters and less to the SuperTechs.

csandste · February 2003

when they carried them, "Car and Driver" filters were Champion Labs.

fleetwoodsimca · February 2003

Don't forget Advance Auto Parts (Western Auto reformed) and their Purolator line. Also, Autozone has STP and the up priced Bosch line, both Champion made. Due to pricing, Supertech remains the best buy, but it shows signs of fading from the shelves. WIX/NAPA may be out of the house brand market, now that Kmart has dropped them as part of their bankruptcy recovery. Are there any other Wix made house brands? Pep Boys Auto Parts has several brands on the shelves, as well. I guess there are several avenues open, even if Supertech fades. Ironically, Fram oil filters cost more than most of their competitors, as far as I can tell. I don't pay a lot of attention to their pricing, though.

kentzzs · February 2003

I noticed that there are lot of negative comments about FRAM filters. However, on consumers report (it was several years ago), FRAM's filters were rated No. 1 on almost all categories. Why is that? Just cutting the corners?

-Kent

edwardn1 · February 2003

...in the FEB 87 issue of consumer reports. A lot of oil has leaked past defective Fram antidrain valves since then.

vidtech · February 2003

house brands seem to be going bye bye.i remember over twenty years ago ,sears had their own filters.dual stage and single stage filters.they were decent filters made by Wix.i used them all the time.Now all you see with their name on it are batteries.

armtdm · February 2003

The original manufacturer had a good product but sold the company. Like Lawn Boy, since the sale the product is no better then anything else. Fram has been sold a few times and it is the most common because it is the cheapest and the American public goes for price first in most cases

according2me · February 2003

and actually Fram was not all that cheap. Their filters ranged from under $4 to over $7.

Sorry to say I couldn't find any ST2808 for my Accord or ST2827 for my sons Altima.

The search goes on.

edwardn1 · February 2003

...and noticed fewer supertechs also. Talked to the clerk and he pointed out that the discontinued slower moving ones were on the clearance rack at a buck apiece. One of the ones on clearance was the ST2870A which is for VW rabbits, other VW's and the Plymouth Horizon and Dodge Omni series of cars with the VW 1.7L engine. I grabbed 2 at that price for our (thank you for not laughing) 78 Horizon that I keep running for sentimental reasons. I know that the catalogue now says to use the ST3614 which is the current Chrysler recommendation, but that change was made in the interest of inventory simplification, the horizon-omni 1.7L left the factory with the same as a ST2870A, but years later chrysler noticed the 3614, a filter used on other chrysler products fit the horizon-omni 1.7L, so they started recommending this shorter filter. VW on the other hand stayed with the longer ST2870A, and so did I. This is another example of how short filters get recommended when longer ones will fit. Hey, previous poster, I think some of the filters you mentioned were also on the clearance rack for a buck too, if so stock up.

fleetwoodsimca · February 2003

Maybe Autozone STP and Advance Purolator will be the bastion for we, the few, who choose to no longer pay elevated prices for oil filters such as Fram.

americanflag · February 2003

effectiveness and the flow rates of the Mobil 1 filter?

edwardn1 · February 2003

...removes the smallest particles of the champion lab series, but is also more restrictive. The STP and Supertech (the same exact filter) have higher flow rates but do not filter as small a particle as the mobil one. They all filter smaller particles than a Fram. Its all a compromise with dynamic systems of almost anything in life, to get more of one thing you have to give up something else. I personally like the Supertech specs, price and availability, plus I wind up in a Walmart more than I like to admit. Anyone still using Fram really should cut one open and bend the cardboard end caps on both ends of the element, it will be a wake up call.

fleetwoodsimca · March 2003

And I don't think you'll find a better bargain than Supertech at Walmart everyday prices. $1.97 for most any vehicle, and that compares to other discount prices on similar filters for another dollar more per filter at places like Autozone (STP).

americanflag · March 2003

I have reservations about the Mobil 1 filter because of the lower flow rates (3 gpm).

ruking1 · March 2003

#2067

To me you shouldn't FEAR the "lower flow" rates of the Mobil One filter. Perhaps knowing the parameters/specifications of the OEM engine flow rate and combining it with "whatever flow rate filter" you have will meet your application. You will probably find that the flow rate of what ever filter is right in the statistical middle.

I agree that the Wally Mart Super Tech filters @ 1.97 presents great value and is a high quality product made by Champion Labs (it even says so on the carton-the graphics i.e. footnote). As a matter of fact, the Super Tech filters meet the specifications of the AC Delco Upf-44, which is a neck and neck competitor with the Mobil One filter sold at 9. and 12-13 dollars respectively.

americanflag · March 2003

minimum specs, then how do you account for the K&N oil filter? It is also built by Champion Labs, but with the opposite philosophy: a lower filter rate and a higher flow rate. It begs the question which is better? Maybe the best is to go with the OEM Motorcraft?

ruking1 · March 2003

#2070

You certainly won't go wrong with the OEM Motorcraft. (I am not current on the cost or who they subcontract the oil filters to)

As you know K&N heavily promotes its performance benefits as with its high flow air filters. So a high flow rate in the oil filter is probably in keeping with its marketing. While K&N and Mobil are both excellent filters and well made, at 11. and 15 bucks respectively (for one of my applications AC DELCO PF44 @2. per), I personally question whether it gives 5.6 x to 7.6 x better filtering than the equivilant WalMart Super Tech @ 1.97.(all three are made by Champion Labs)

I would guess that to do a reasonably scientific test is way out of the scope of what most folks would logically want to do.

americanflag · March 2003

and changing at 3000 mile intervals (I know, a subject of debate), then I think one has to question the extra cost of the Mobil 1 filter. I could see after a while saying the heck with it, this is too expensive. I would like to see more research on the Mobil 1 filter before I would be persuaded. They seem to be offering precious little IMO.

bigorange30 · March 2003

as long as the flow allowed is still within the requirements of the engine. I am fairly certain that no filter restricts the flow so much that it is to low to lubricate the engines except possible in the most extreme cases like racing engines.

I am surprised that someone who is willing to waste money changing a sythetic oil at 3000 miles is not willing to spend a few extra dollars for superior filtration.

americanflag · March 2003

there is alot of thought that a good OEM oil filter is better than the Mobil 1 filter. I don't know. I just am not happy with the lack of info supplied by Mobil 1 on their oil filter.

Also, most agree the air filter is more important than the oil filter. I just don't see an argument for the Mobil 1 except their generalized advertising claims. Have you had good results with it?

fleetwoodsimca · March 2003

It is my understanding that--
Modern automotive engines are designed so that not all of the oil flow is pushed through the filter just prior to reaching the vital lubrication areas. It is a matter of collateral circulation, much like the blood circulation in your body. The auto engineers design engines so that as much oil as is reasonable can get pushed off into the filtration circuit, but in the event of a blockage or narrowing of flow there, the remaining circulation is quite adequate to keep the engine lubricated. Cleaning the oil is a dilution principle event. Filtered oil is continually being pushed back into the general field of oil that is keeping the engine lubed.

bigorange30 · March 2003

so far. I am going for the best protection I can get. This filter costs peanuts in the long run.

vadp · March 2003

that there's no evidence that it does offer more protection.

bluedevils · March 2003

I used a few of these in the past @ $10 each but could not justify paying 3-5 times more than for other worthy competitors such as the SuperTech and Wix-made house brands and switched. Sure, the actual number of dollars difference for a single filter is fairly small, but 3-5 times is the important part. Assuming 4 oil changes a year, $10 filters cost $32 more than $2 filters. Multiply that by 5 years and that's $160 more spent on $10 filters than $2 filters.

If we paid 3-5 times more for all of our auto maintenance items, all of our groceries, etc. it adds up. Why spend 10+ bucks for an oil filter when there is precious little evidence to indicate that it's worth the money - i.e. it increases the longevity of your engine, or even IS LIKELY TO INCREASE the longevity of your engine, or inreases fuel economy, or ...

bigorange30 · March 2003

texasjeep in post #1963 gave links to several filter studies that provides more than enough evidence for me. The last link states this about the Mobil1 filter:

"M1-301

Like the Champion, this filter is made by Champion Industries. However, it uses a unique end plate and a thicker can that make it the strongest filter available for wide-distribution retail sale. It also does not use the fragile paper media of the Champion filter. Im happy to say that this filter is NOT a fake. It is definitely a unique design.

It uses a synthetic fiber element that can filter out very small particles and is much stronger than the fragile, Champion paper media. It is rated just under the Purolator Pure One as far as filtering capability, but is still very much above conventional paper filters. It also has a very strong construction to withstand high-pressure spikes during start-up. Given the choice between the Purolator Pure One and the Mobil 1 filters, I would choose the Mobil 1 because of the restriction concerns of the Pure One and that pesky assembly string. However, as with all Mobil 1 products, expect to pay 2 - 3 times as much for this filter."

I don't know how you can get a more glowing review than that by someone that has no vested interest in saying so.

The guy who did this study is Russ Knize who has no tie to mobil1. He actually seems to like Chryslers and may have some tie to them but he claims the following on his FAQ page:

"Who are you and what are your qualifications?
Quite frankly, I am just a concerned automotive enthusiast that is tired of being toyed with by these manufacturers. In reality, I am an Electrical Engineer with no qualifications in the area of filtration analysis. However, I have eyes and some common sense, which has proven to be enough to accomplish what I set out to do."

bluedevils · March 2003

And I don't question this guy's impartiality. I even believe his conclusions.

However, the aforementioned quote says nothing about the Mobil 1 filter being 'worth the money.' Unless I missed something, it does not even say 'this filter is much better than most of the other filters we tested.' Therefore, the question of 'is it worth the extra money' remains unanswered, IMO.

Sure, he says the filtering capability is 'very much above' that of typical paper element filters. But that's a pretty general statement and I don't conclude, based on that statement, that the Mobil 1 is therefore superior in filtration to all paper element filters. Plus there's the notion that filtration is not the only concern. And the theory, hammered on here by the respected armtdm, that ALL oil filters really aren't doing that much anyway.

I don't think I'm alone in thinking that the body of evidence available to even web-savvy consumers regarding filter comparisons and tests is pretty thin.

If someone wants to believe that the Mobil 1 filter is the best widely available filter available, that's fine. It may be correct. But I don't think anyone can honestly say that with much certainty at all. The claim that it's worth the extra money is an even bigger stretch.

bigorange30 · March 2003

"...but is still very much above conventional paper filters. It also has a very strong construction to withstand high-pressure spikes during start-up..."

tells me that that he thinks that the mobil1 is better than any paper filter he has tested. It doesn't seem to be a gross extrapolation to say that it would be better than any paper filter.

His review opinion of the mobil1 is better than any other review he did. He didn't state that the extra cost was worth it but he certainly didn't say it wasn't worth it either.

Is there any evidence anywhere that any filter restricts flow to levels that are unhealthy for any engine?

Oil Filters, whose is best, and Why?

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