Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
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Bottom line-I don't care how much I paid--I LOVE this car and am soooo excited! I hope I'm able to drive by x-mas!!!
For some, many ladies, car buying is a fun, spirit charging experience where price is incidental, a minor part of the deal.
For some guys, the deal is the deal. Its part of the challenge, the conquest. After the make and model has been targeted, the price is paramount. They do not want to hear their friends say - YOU PAID WHAT!!!???
So forgive the guys here, for many, its all about the art of the deal.
Um, in LA and San Diego that's just plain not true. Dealerships generally treat people like dirt and will rob them blind without a second thought.
Would you like to know why they laugh at people? They talk behind your back when you sneer, snap & walk into a show room and treat everyone terribly. They shake their head and wonder why that person is such a mean spirited, scared little man.
Oh my, no. They laugh that they can send a salesperson out who doesn't know a lick about the product, lies about what it can or can't do/have and lies over and over to the smiling face waiting to buy the car. The sales process is a joke and it's stacked in favor of the seller when faced with ignorant buyers (most people).
You DON'T have to be rude to get what you want! Don't you get it?!
That's true. I prefer starting all sweet and nice and letting the salesperson reveal whether or not he's worth my respect. The bottomline: know what the product costs the dealer and get a price you feel is fair. In my opinion, no matter what the car is, anything $300 over invoice is too much profit for a stealership. They provide nothing and are entitled to as little cash as possible.
I don't care if they made money on me. Why shouldn't they? What is so terrible about someone making money? It's the same as Marshall Fields, Target, Nordstrom, etc.
Totally different products. You can't compare clothing sales to auto sales. One, unfortunately in this country, doesn't allow for the barter system. Thankfully with autosales you can still exercise control. The only way to get that control with clothing is to wait for sales, abuse coupons, use other means to get the lowest price. I much prefer the eastern view that people can haggle over prices on everything.
Should sales people merely exist for your own personal torture and gain?
I'd prefer if they didn't exist at all, as they're useless. Dealerships exist to move product. What happens with the salesperson is not my concern.
Should they give their cars away and then be treated like &*%@ ???????
They should sell their cars for as much as they can get. It's a free market. Let the Mazda dealers prey on the impetuous buyers - suck the life out of them. In three to four months the 6, like all mazda products, will be available at or below invoice for buyers willing to haggle. Even then some people will pay sticker. Let'em.
A dealership is more likely to want to give a discount, albeit a small one, to someone who treats them with dignity and respect, rather than what I'm guessing you treat someone like.
A dealership might throw in a negligible extra like wheel locks or floormats or give you a pitiful $500 discount so that you'll scamper out and tell people what a great deal you got but you know, any buyer with a little effort can get that and probably more. Spend enough time pushing and you'll get all sorts of extras, money off and maybe the salesman's first born.
Try it next time you purchase a vehicle. It works.
email works great for most purchases as you can avoid salespeople (useless leeches) and get the dealership's bottomline price (normally a bit over invoice). You can easily e-mail back a demand and make it a take it or leave it proposition. Plus you can get offers from all over town without ever visiting some dingy, rat-infested stealership.
If you like to knock it out, visit the dealership, find the car and then tell junior to go get the boss because you want to get the deal done fast. Offer invoice, don't use the 4 square and build from there. As soon as they don't budge, get up and walk. If they follow, you've got them. If not, try again somewhere else. It's ALWAYS a buyers market in the car business. and in 2002, definitely the power is in our hands.
I'm sorry if you are looking at this "more critically than me", but how much time do you think you are wasting, when you could be driving away in your new Mazda6?!
Yes, of course people are there to maximize their profits! Is that any reason to treat them like hell?
By the way, a dealer WILL make the deal if they are not making any money. You are naive if you think otherwise.
Where do you think this money is coming from? Take away the profit, the hold back, everything--where are they finding the profit? From the profit fairy!?
Don't you understand that unless you are selling BMW's or Lexus's, the profit margin is SMALL!
Thank you for the good wishes!
"I'd prefer if they didn't exist at all, as they're useless. Dealerships exist to move product. What happens with the salesperson is not my concern"...
Never in my life have I heard such a disgusting remark about a human being.
You are the mean spirited, scared little man I was refering to.
I'm sorry you're taking this so seriously. Give yourself a break; not everything is about you.
It's a blast! I love to haggle, toss it around and make sellers squirm. As someone else pointed out, for many of us it's the deal that's the fun part. I help all my friends and family buy cars because they know I will not settle for a bad price (MSRP) and that I dearly love automobiles and car buying. someone calls me and says she wants to get a car this weekend, I'm all over that like Shaq on a rebound.
I'm sorry if you are looking at this "more critically than me", but how much time do you think you are wasting, when you could be driving away in your new Mazda6?!
95% of the population, regardless of what they think, have nothing but time (how much do they waste watching the idiot box in the living room weekly? 30-40 hours?!). most people will sacrifice 5-6 hours of time car shopping to save hundreds/thousands of dollars.
Yes, of course people are there to maximize their profits! Is that any reason to treat them like hell?
No. But is there any reason to hand away money? No. They're out to make money, we're out to save it. Eventually we come to an agreement either on price or that we'll never agree. Either way neither party will feel cheated.
By the way, a dealer WILL make the deal if they are not making any money. You are naive if you think otherwise.
Give me an example. Don't forget holdback and dealer-to-cash money and backend points on financing. I'll gladly sell you a car for 19k that invoices for 20k if I'm doing your financing and I get you a 9 or 10% rate (of which I get 4-6 points). I make the money either way.
Where do you think this money is coming from? Take away the profit, the hold back, everything--where are they finding the profit? From the profit fairy!?
The most important part of car buying and dealer profit: not my problem. If the dealer "only" makes $500 on the deal with holdback, then they're doing just fine. It's in service where all dealerships make the bulk of their profits. Also, just because you got a deal, that doesn't mean idiots don't walk in off the street and pay MSRP plus "market mark-up" and get the sealer wax and use dealer financing with back end points. You can sell 3 cars near invoice and 1 for over MSRP and you're doing well.
Don't you understand that unless you are selling BMW's or Lexus's, the profit margin is SMALL!
LOL. A $26,300 Mazda6 comes with an invoice of $23,800. That's $2500 right there. Add in the holdback (lets say only 1%) and we're at $2750 profit before warranty work and repairs. That's small? Nearly 3k profit on a car that won't even sit on the lot for a day?! Profit margins on SUVs are even more sickening.
"Plus you can get offers from all over town without ever visiting some dingy, rat-infested stealership." LOL!!!!
"Spend enough time pushing and you'll get all sorts of extras, money off and maybe the salesman's first born. "
"That's true. I prefer starting all sweet and nice and letting the salesperson reveal whether or not he's worth my respect." Excellent! usually takes
And finally - "It's ALWAYS a buyers market in the car business. and in 2002, definitely the power is in our hands."
Yeah!
That human being chose to go into sales. do not feel sorry for him as he made that decision with dollar signs in his eyes. Those who can sell thrive in that market. Sales is one of the few professions you can hit without any education and become a millionaire.
Neither I nor the dealership have any vested interest in the salesperson's life. If he wanted a safe job he could have gone into accounting.
You are the mean spirited, scared little man I was refering to.
Watch the ad hominem style of responses. That's not cool. I haven't attacked you, so extend to me the same respect.
-Alt
http//www.sylvania.com/auto
Venture1 asked if the Mazda6 has driving lights, yes, it does. You can see a single bulb placed at the outer edge of the highbeam lamp's reflector.
And STOP all this bickering!! Even if one of you is right you haven't won anything!! Sheesh!! Take it outside!
fowler3
As far as salesman, I have to agree again. I work for a company that markets PR software. I can't tell you how many complaints I have gotten from customers about our product, because it doesn't perform one particular functionality. Well, turns out, the product is not suppose to perform that function. "But the SALESMAN told me it would", the client usually says. Most salesman will sell their mother for a sale.
As I understand it, most dealers finance their own inventory and make monthly payments on it, just like consumers. If they sell a car as soon as they get it from the manufacturer, their actual cash investment in the car might be very small - perhaps only one month's loan payment. If they sell that car right away for only a few hundred dollars over invoice, they might be making 100% on their actual cash investment. If they can get retail price for the car, their actual profit margin might be 1000%. In any case, don't measure the profit margin from the invoice price - measure it from the dealer's actual cash investment in the car, which might be only a fraction of the invoice price. Add in buyer financing, add-ons, etc., and you're talking about a lot of potential profit.
This is why dealers can make money selling a lot of cars at or below invoice, even in the absence of holdbacks and incentives. It's also why they adore people who aren't tough negotiators.
I'm simplifying the process, but this is basically how it works, as I understand it. Do not buy a salesperson's sob story that they are not making any money by giving you a big discount, and do not think that you'll get a better deal just by being "nice". You can be nice and still be a tough negotiator.
I've never treated a salesperson rudely who did not treat me rudely first (unfortunately, too many have). But tough negotiating is not rude.
Of course, it's entirely your right to buy a car as soon as it comes out and avoid negotiating in order to have a "fun" experience. Just don't think that the salesperson has done you any favors by giving you a small discount.
As for whether dealerships have changed since the 70's, I fear not. I generally encounter the same problems now as I did then. Of course, some dealers and salespeople are better than others.
Let's take a deep breath, a step back and calm down, okay?
We don't have to agree with each other all the time -- what a boring world THAT would be ;-) -- but we do need to treat each other with respect.
It is my understanding that Edmunds publishes the best times, and since it is stated in the review as eight seconds, I think that is with brake-torquing. Again, please clarify. Thanks.
You are correct in assuming we publish the best times on the specification sheet. The 0-to-60 time of eight seconds was achieved after brake-torquing the engine to 2,000 rpm. Before trying that technique the car was taking closer to nine seconds to reach 60 mph. Sorry for the confusion. — Ed.
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So, it's official, the 6i MT will slaughter a 6s AT from 0-60. The best time I've seen for a 6i MT is 7.8s (can't remember source, but it was European), and just stomping the accelerator on the 6s AT will take 8.7 seconds to get to 60.
Auto tranny's suck. If I may, I'd like to express how disappointed I am with the general public for driving so many automatics. Most dealers around me don't have a single manual tranny in stock. Yet, if I could get one, I'd be please to know that my car would not only be faster off a stoplight, but it'd get 6 miles-per-gallon farther on the highway.
You don't have to be rude to a dealer to get a good deal and if you do have to play hardball you should try another dealer. There are too many good cars in the 6's class for them to not bend on price. I go into the dealer knowing exactly what I want to pay and I tell them. Either they will do the deal or not. If not, I keep my current car until they will or if they wait long enough something better will come out anyways or they may even have special interest rate offers.
If we buy a 6 at invoice w/o 0.0% interest it will already be a sacrifice because we know that as a subsidiary of Ford eventually they will have 0.0%. This is the only sacrifice we are willing to make and we refuse to pay more than a few hundred over invoice.
BTW: Does anyone know who qualifies for the Mazda S-X plan?
Stephen
It takes about 25 minutes. It includes 5 on/off ramps, plenty of hiway and city, tight curves on back roads and even the much needed minnesota potholes. We are confident that you'll know exactly what to expect from any Mazda you drive here.
You shouldn't be surprised to hear they ended up on some of the roads we already love.
That drive is the best part of my day. Sometimes I even zip my P5 over there before work to push the limits of my tires.
If you think the 6 looks good on paper...you gotta try it on the road!
I mean, seriously?
I thought that you sincerely believed that the Ford brand and its subsidiaries, and especially the Ford assembly plants, are the worst things that could ever happen to the human kind.
I'm sorry for misunderstanding, but this is the impression I got from your posts.
how many people do you know who are eager to admit that they paid MSRP for any car.
I pay what I think something is worth... to me.
I wouldn't buy a Neon for a dollar and I would pay more than MSRP for the Odessey (if I were silly enough to want one over the MPV).
I'll pay full price on the newest CD I want and Half price on the clothes I am browsing through.
Do you have any idea what the mark up is on furiture or sports equipment? 3-5% over cost is VERY small by comparison.
You would cry if you knew what you paid, over cost, for all the clothes you bought in the last 10 years.
It will be hard to find a dealer willing to accept that pricing right now. You'll have to wait until the dealers get more inventory on their lots.
http://www.johnholtz.com/specials_detail.asp?Make=6&CatID=5
I've been driving it a couple of days now and am pleased with the decision to get this one over the others in this class.
So, all of you people waiting for the price to come down--STOP! Get one now so it'll retain its value and I won't have made such a loss. hee hee
so how does it feel to be the first one posting!?!?!?!?
:-D
By the way, I'd been reading this forum for quite a while and posting when I could. I was the one (for those who remember back then) who had a problem with the red lights on the guages. I'm finding that it's not so bad. Although there is this button on the radio called "dimmer" which is nice to have dim and night and not during the day. I think that's how it would normally be, but I turn my lights on everytime I'm in the car anyways (day or night), so I keep having to toggle that. Kinda of annoying, but no way around it, I guess.
So get out there and get one for yourselves!
Their service department isn't so hot either. My wife goes there for our oil changes because it's convenient and they treat her like she knows nothing about cars because she's a woman (and she knows a good deal about cars).
-Alt
I live in the north bay and unfortunately I don't have many resources with regards to Mazda. I bought my Tribute from Vacaville Mazda and have mixed results with them. Way back when the fuel smell problems were noticed with the Tributes (nearly 2 years ago), my dealer was one of the first to recognize and fix the problem. Lately, however, they've been falling off the ball, I've been waiting 6 weeks now for my headlight (with condensation) to be replaced. The bulb shattered with the rains 3 weeks ago and they still "haven't received the part yet". At this time of year, the lack of attention to the problem is nearly inexcusable.
********
I think the "3-5% over cost" argument is specious if the dealer is actually just financing his inventory, in which case invoice is not the dealer's real cost (see my previous post). If I'm misinformed on this fact I would welcome any input.
I agree with you that a product is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. I also respect a salesperson's right to get the best price he/she can. If a person wants a car then and there and is not interested in negotiating, or is not knowledgeable enough to negotiate, and goes home happy, that's their prerogative. But if the subject comes up, I don't hesitate to tell people that with a bit of effort, they can usually save more money than they think, and it has little to do with being "nice" or not. It also has nothing to do with the mark-ups that clothes or furniture are sold at. If auto dealers didn't make an adequate profit, they wouldn't be in business. All that really matters is arriving at a mutually agreeable price - comparing margins in this context is essentially academic, IMO.
Anyway, you sound like a knowledgeable salesperson - always a refreshing thing. Congratulations on having a car that almost sells itself!
As for the price of furniture it's usually 200% over invoice. If the store buys a boxcar load of sofas at 50% off factory prices, your price is factory cost for stores buying two or three sofas. And there's NO SUCH THING as free delivery. The cost of delivering furniture is figured into the price. If the store advertises Free Delivery 100 miles and you live in town, that's a hefty delivey fee = more profit. Tip: rent a small U-Haul truck or borrow a neighbor's pickup truck and pick up your furniture purchase, tell the salesman to knock off the delivery charge. You CAN negotiate furniture prices.
marchhare, congrats on the new purchase, enjoy the ride and keep us posted with your thoughts. By the way, what do you think of the headlights, are they good or bad? I have been dubious since seeing those "maglights" in the first photos.
fowler3
best of luck to you,
-Alt
I own a 2000 Protege ES that I purchased from Whitten Brothers. My wife owns a 2002 Protege5 that we also purchased from Whitten. I've been a Whitten customer non-stop since 1991 when I purchased my first Protege, a '92 LX. So far I've purchased five cars from them in 11 years, and I really do like their staff and service.
I've already sat in (didn't have time to drive that day) a 6 there. I plan to make it my next car, but everyone is nice about not pressuring me since I've firmly stated that I won't be in the market for a new car again until at least 2005. My 2000 Protege ES is doing just fine half-paid off and with 47,000 miles on it. (Yes, I'm an official Mazda junkie.)
I live in Midlothian and work downtown. Drop me an e-mail if you'd like:
mdaffron@the-rma.org
(You'll notice from my e-mail address that I work for one of the most UNpopular businesses in Richmond!)
Meade
I thought it was clever of mazda to do the fake bulb instead of a cheaper looking headlight assembly..
rich
Good to hear your experience at Whitten backs up my initial impressions. I'll definitely go to them first when I go shopping in the Summer. BTW, have you ever been to Victory Nissan? I test drove a Altima SE MT there last June before I had any idea what they were like. They were the only delaer to have an SE 3.5 MT at all. Now I hear the radio spots with "Mad Chad" and I don't think I'm going back there.
When I buy, it will be my third new car. I am amazed that you have purchased 5 from the same dealer since I have never even gone to the original dealer for service.
So to get back on topic.....
Did you sit in the grey 6 in the showroom? Not too shabby. I also saw a red, a blue and a couple of silver ones out front, but none had the sport pkg.
Rich
Yes dealers do pay intrest rates on their inventory. Too bad we don't get the great 0% or even 3.9 huh?
Some inside info on Holdback.
Dealer holdback is not a profit center as a whole for a dealership. It is intended to cover the cost of doing business and keeping a good inventory of cars. The Holdback is enough to hold onto a car for about 2-3 months
We actually pay our service department to inspect them when they come in off transport.
We really do keep a staff of detailers to clean them up, remove all the protective tape (and also the all the extra gummy adhesive left from that tape). Then when they are sold we have to clean them up again with washing, vacuuming, shampoo footprints from the carpets from test drivers as well as scuffs on the doors.
We have to pay our fantastic lot staff to keep the cars organized and in stock from over stock lots (which we also pay rent on).
We pay to advertize the cars in the paper, and on the radio in our area.
They even pay me LOL.
The typicall hold back on a Mazda is between $300-$400.
Please don't expect to get the holdback for yourself. All the holdback is pooled to cover all vehicles. Keeping the largest inventory in our 9 state area is expensive.
You may think we just made a profit selling a Mazda6 right off the truck at invoice but..We have loads of cars that have been here for more than 4 months. Many that have been here for over 8 months and embarrasingly... We still have a new 2001 MPV in the corner looking for a good home, that nobody wants to talk about.
Even the article by Edmunds tells you that holdback is not negotiable.
You may have figured out by now I actually sell Mazdas. There are several here in Minnetonka who are unusual. We know the value of Respect and Honesty.
Though some may not have experienced it at other dealers you will find good Customer Service is still out there in sales. You just have to look for it. It is worth it when you find it.
I would be happy to try and answer other questions or what ever. Even if you aren't in my area.
No, I haven't been to Victory Nissan. I visited Pence and Southpark Nissan back in April 2000 when I *almost* strayed from my Protege ways and bought a Sentra -- but luckily I came back to my senses and bought my Protege from Whitten in May 2000.
I've owned so many cars in such a short time because for one thing, my first car from Whitten -- the 1992 Protege LX -- hydroplaned and was totaled 8 months after I bought it. Whitten had given me such good service, I took my insurance check back to them and picked up another '92. I drove that car for Pizza Hut and racked up an amazing 83,000 miles in only 26 months (I think I beat Vocus here). I made the stupid mistake of trading the Protege for a Mazda B2300 (made by Ford) pickup in December 1994. That truck spent a LOT of time in the shop, but Whitten still won my heart helping me out at every turn -- even honoring my warranty for several ongoing problems until I parted with the truck in May 2000 at over 115,000 miles. My Protege has been flawless, and Whitten continues to provide loaner cars with each scheduled maintenance; heck, even my salesman (Buddy Hiatt, ask for him and tell him I told you to) has offered to take me out to lunch (his tab) in a 6 someday in the next few weeks! Everyone there knows me by name. When I bought the 2000 Protege ES, Buddy's first offer was BELOW invoice before we even started haggling. How's that for being a preferred customer?
So when it was time to replace my wife's 1995 Cavalier (which was falling to pieces and on its FOURTH head gasket at the ripe old age of 53,000 miles), we went to Whitten and she picked up a white Protege5 back in January. Again we got an excellent deal and a few options thrown in at substantial discounts.
About the 6 in the showroom -- it's been two weekends since I was there last, and then they had just gotten in a half-dozen or so and none were in the showroom. I sat in a black or dark-gray (hey, it was a dark, rainy day) 6S, and they had three or four 6i's out in front of the showroom on the sidewalk. They hadn't taken any of them inside yet.
I'll have to take Buddy up on his offer and get over there this week or next. I can't wait to drive that 6S!!!
Meade
Meade