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OK - on Thursday, when I got stranded... we could manage to start the car, but it would not stay running. And did it ever stink - the mix coming out of that exhaust was unbelievably rich - you could pretty much smell straight gas almost. It was like it was drowning.
We managed to get it running well enough on Friday once it had dried out, and I got it home, but it was not a fun ride. The CEL came on immediately, and it ran just awful - good thing I only had 5 miles to go.
When my friend hooked it to a palm help computer tonight, we got a P0102 = low voltage to Mass Air Flow Sensor. He cleared the error, and the CEL subsequently went off, and the car ran better.
We were pretty sure with as rich as it had smelled that the problem was related to the air/fuel mixture, and this codes seems to be in agreement. And today was dry, so nothing was wet and it behaved. We were not ready to spray it with water and try again - for fear that I may permanently burn out whatever it is and have to have the thing towed off.
Interestingly enough, the car sat in rain all day on Thursday... and it started and ran fine til I got a few miles down the road. My gut feeling is that you are on the right track with either a wiring harness issue or an intake issues.
When I popped the housing to the air filter off on Thursday, the filter was bone dry. Its actually in great shape. So my thought is wiring harness - that mist coming up from the road or puddles is causing some sort of a short - but i dont think it is sucking moisture through the intake, because wouldnt the filter be damp if that was the case?
PS about my mechanic - he's my best friends husband, and hasnt charged me a cent, much to my protest :-) A great Marine with loads of general mechanical knowledge, who has driven 50 miles roundtrip to bail me out a 5 times now, and who has himself personally changed my cat converter, o2 sensors, fuel filter, ignition coil pack, plugs and wires. He's a fantastic guy and a wonderful friend. But: he says electrical is beyond his scope - and I am thinking that my only recourse at this point is to have the thing hooked to a big computer and have a full diagnostic laundry list run.
Can someone point me in a direction to loook for chaffed wire? we wiggled all visible connections from the top, and could not replicate the problem or cause a stall. We were able to see 3 or 4 different connectors. Mitch even popped the air box and looked at the sensor itself, but we werent really sure if the sensor looked normal - we didnt see any black char or anything on it tho. I will happily crawl under there and look for chafefd wire and broken guards and so on - I am not exactly sure what I am looking for tho, I will admit that. :confuse:
Yes it does. But it does not have a reputation for blowing those headgaskets at 70-110K miles. You did know that about the Subaru 2.5 before you bought it, right? Surely you noticed how the older Subarus are all getting a "below average" reliability grade for engines in Consumer Reports?
You probably will get similar reliability in the Subaru. What you will not get is the acceleration, smoothness, and mileage of the Honda V6. But I couldn't fit in a 2001 Accord, so I have no opinion on the differences. I still have the Subaru, BTW.
If it's still running OK next winter I'll put Nokians on it.
I've never driven an '04 or later Accord, but compared to my '01, the Subaru gets 2-3 mpg better mileage than the Accord did (not quite fair comparing 4-speed auto with 5-speed stick, but that's what we had/have). Week in and week out, the Accord got 19 mpg in our daily city driving; the Subie gets 22. And the Accord got 26-27 mpg on the road; the Subie has gotten 29.5 at the same speeds and on the same routes. Same tires, even.
But the clincher is that our Accord had a 4-speed auto with very wide-range gearing (stick shift was not available with the V6). 4th gear at 60 mph was only 2000 rpm versus 2600rpm in the Subie. On top of that, the last generation VTEC Accord V6 had very poor midrange torque. So even though it was undoubtedly faster 0-60 mph than the Subie, the Subie feels faster and more responsive in daily driving. Acceleration in 4th gear in the Accord was undetectable; any acceleration at all required a downshift, so a simple lane change required a push to downshift, which often gave more acceleration than you really wanted, but there was nothing in between. I find myself moving through heavy traffic much smoother and easier in the Legacy than the Accord.
More important, if you wanted to pass a car on a 2-lane road at 60 mph, you stomped the Accord and got 3rd gear and 3300 rpm, and very little torque. If the car were going 50, it would go to 2nd and Wow!, in a few seconds it was going 70, then upshift to 3rd. But at 60mph you couldn't get second. Having driven the Accord for nearly 4 years and 65,000 miles, and having driven the Subie for 4 months, I'll say our 165hp 4-cyl Subie (with stick shift!) is faster accelerating from 60-80 mph than the 200hp V6 Accord automatic.
None of this applies to the newer Accord with 240 hp and 5-speed auto. The latest engine has a 3-stage version of the VTEC system where ours had a 2-stage version; it has much better midrange torque, from what I've read, and the 5-speed auto fills in the gaps left by the older 4-speed auto.
On longer trips, the quiet of the Subie is years ahead of our Accord. Sure, the Accord engine is nearly silent on the highway, but on the coarse ship-seal roads that Texas DOT uses so much, road roar and hiss in the Accord drowned out everything else, including conversation or music. The '05 Legacy's I've driven and lusted after are nearly immune to coarse road noise, and even our '02 is much quieter than our Accord was. The absence of road roar means you hear wind rush and engine whine in the Legacy, but the overall cabin noise level is still much lower in the Subaru. When I got rid of the original Michelin MXV4 tires on the Accord, the noise level dropped, but was still significant on coarse roads. We often listen to books on tape on longer Interstate trips, and my wife and I have both noticed the lower noise level in the Legacy. BTW, in other states where chip-seal roads are not used so much, this may be a non-issue.
I may have trouble with the Subie head gaskets some day, or I may not. I got the car at a good enough price that if I eventually have to shell out for new gaskets, I'll still probably be ahead of the game. And meanwhile I am driving a car that I really enjoy.
If you are too, then we're both winners here.
Stanton
p.s. As an aside, if Honda offered an Accord wagon with v6 and stick shift, I might have bought it, road noise or not.
After the car ran last night - and we cleared the P0102 code...
I cant get the car to run this morning. Same thing - stalls wont stay running. The car sat in the garage all night long. But the humidity in the air is very high.
SO-- wiring harness? cant imagine what else could be causing this, since I havent driven through any puddles today.
The real kiss of it is I was scheduled to bring it to a garage this am for an electronics diagnostic. Too bad I cant get the car there!
the code P0102 denotes low voltage... besides the MAF getting low voltage and not nkowing if its inbound or outbound... what else should I be looking for? Besides a cheap towing company? :sick:
Actually, it's the "pilot light" in the switch - the little, round, orange light that's integrated into the switch and comes on when you depress the button to activate the mirror heaters. The switch (and heaters) work.
If I get behind that little wood bezel and encounter a multiswitch panel that would have to be replace entirely I'd blow it off and live without the light. I'm mostly concerned at this point with getting that plood trim piece off without damaging it so that I can take a look. I've done this with other cars (similar setup) but I had the expanded maintenance manual that indicated pry points - and prying elsewhere would likely cause damage. Since Subaru only sells monster manuals, I don't have that info available (in the basic owners manual). There's no screw or obvious pry point that I can see.
Thanks!
Ken in Seattle
1. Loose Ground
2. MAS is failing or failed
I had problems with my MAS before and when the MAS wasn't working, neither was the car.... It was very hard to diagnose and I eventually replaced it on my mechanic's "hunch," but since the problem ceased to occur, I can only assume that this WAS the problem. You've done better than me though; my CEL came on every time, but oddly enough it never recorded a code. Mine had no relation to wetness, so I may be grasping at straws here.
Here's the outcome: I went to an auto trim shop, the kind of place that does custom decals. They made exact replica decals for me, & installed them, for $250 out the door. It really looks great. The color matches the silver paint even better than the oem decals had.
-juice
This is my second Subaru and the other one did it as well, I'm not concerned. However, for your peace of mind call your dealer and ask if this is "normal".
Subaru has steadfastly denied there is any problem with the design of the 2.5l and will not help. They offered me a $1,000 discount on a new one after I complained but we bought a 2005 Honda and Nissan instead. Toyota was much more upfront about their problems and retained customer loyalty. Subaru is pretending that all the owners who have had head gasket problems won't talk to each other. Search for head gaskets on ultimatesubaru.net and your eyes will be opened.
First, take it to another garage.If it's just bubbling and didn't overheat while driving it's more likely the head gaskets alone. If you were driving hard and got an overheat condition, that's more likely to require a rebuild.
On ultimatesubaru.net and even our local craigs list there are 90's Subarus for sale with head gasket problems. There does not seem to be an awareness of this problem here on Edmunds.
I paid $1,250 for headgaskets (preemptively) at 140,000 miles. It now has 155K and is still running well. My sister-in-law had a rebuild at 144K due to the overheat and now has 215,000 miles on it with no further problems. The most you could hope for as is is probably $2,000 or so. So if you like the car, get it fixed and keep driving.
As far as matching the color, try the subaru silver (you can look up colors in a color matching booklet), or since the wheels are primarily aluminum try any paint that says aluminum as the color description.
If you end up wanting to replace them check eBay.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7968127209&category=337- - -
$10
You'll find a lot of other Suby parts there too. Read up on the sellers' background though.
Colby
I think if you just wear your seatbelt it doesn't chime. LOL
As far as the connectoins. I don't know what new things you've found out or if you were able to get that diagnostic but, is it possible that it wasn't starting because it was flooded every time? This whole issue is with the mixture too much gas, too little air, not enough, etc... Your rich mixture smell description makes me think that you were getting too much gas due to this connection problem that many have described.
Colby
Honda NEVER treated me like that.
anyway the local dealer found someone to take it off my hands for $2650, and I will likely take that.. and go buy another Honda- whenever I told Honda about a problem, they came up with customer loyalty or some such money for most of the repairs/ springs broken- stuff like that...
This Subaru looks brand new-- what a shame. I can get a replacement used engine for about $2000, but then I still have other headaches to look forward to..
I am out of the SUBARU market forever- after having 2 that I loved- but if I don't love their corporate people and the treatment- then I don't any longer LOVE Subaru.. here I come Honda... or is that hyunda (SP?)that has a great warrantee and might want a new customer?
I'm never coming back- and I will do all in my power to be sure others don't buy-
wonder what the USA Today 1/4 page will cost? Don't be surprised if you see my story there- We will get even..
thanks all/ Jerry
If it's just the head gaskets you don't need a new block, that can cost as little as $6-800 per side.
Toyota was much more upfront about their problems
I respectfully disagree. Subaru bumped the head gasket warranty to 8/100 without much of a fight. Toyota fought tooth-and-nail on the oil sludge issue. Proof:
http://www.autonews.com/article.cms?articleId=38302&a=a&bt=sludge
You guys are talking about gasket failures at 144k and 137k miles, and in this owner's case 106k miles. Do you really think Honda or Toyota would cover those at that kind of mileage?
For reference, Honda's powertrain warranty finishes at 36k miles and Toyota's at 60k miles. Honda would have to quarduple their warranty to cover that 144k gasket failure.
No way, no how.
-juice
Not 100k+. 29k.
-juice
But they haven't done squat for those of us that own '97 and '98 vintage cars with the internal leaks that cause overheating and hydrocarbons in the coolant. The extension on the warranty does not apply to us, if I understand correctly.
Craig
Isn't it too cold for in Canada for lemons??
Maybe Canada should have an apple law instead?
DaveM
We have 5 subies in my family, mine, wife's, dad's, sister's, and brother's. That's 10 head gaskets. Not one has ever even shown signs of leaking.
If you were believe the hysteria some people seem to have, we'd have at least 6-7 failed gaskets by now.
Betsy: I do think you should periodically spray lithium grease on your sway bar joints, but I'd suspect wheel bearings in your case. Do you get a speed-dependent noise?
-juice
I had a '86 Subaru that used to do this. Describing the noise as a squeek is too nice, I would call it a cruching noise. It was because the front struts were bad. It really made loud noises over speed bumps.
I have noticed it once on my '03 Legacy, a few weeks ago, and I only have 20,400 miles. It don't concern me much because I know what it is.
I suspect this is your problem, if your dealer can fix it, try another dealer and see what they say.
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Ignoring taxes??
DaveM
I would not suspect bearing at this point, since this noise is associated with suspension travel and cold weather.
As for the unbalanced wobbly feeling, check your tire pressure as a first cut.
How many miles on the car?
Craig
Maybe make frozen lemonade?
But what's more fun than ignoring yard work that could be done to chat with the Subaru Crew???
Ignoring taxes??
Is it ironic that tomorrow's payday???
Cheers!
Paul
I also think there is enough anecdotal evidence to show that there are an unusually high number of head gasket issues on our vintage of 2.5L engines.
Peace.
Karl
Stanton
Stanton
However, take a look at the Toyota sludge comments on these Edmunds message boards to see how they handled similar issues. Toyota denied any fault as long as possible, even accused owners of neglecting the cars and trying to defraud the company. My brother got that line of s**t from them, and he is truly OCD about car maintenance - Mobil 1 from just after break-in, all oil changes by the book, almost all highway miles on the engine, and sludged up at 65,000 miles. His Camry died 500 miles from home, and he had to have a nearby Toyota dealer install an engine out of a wrecking yard - with no help from Toyota. And Toyota had the nerve to accuse him of neglecting to change the oil in the engine.
Only when it became clear that Toyota had a major public-relations problem did they do anything, even though by then there had been an avalanche of claims.
Honda seems to have been more helpful AFAIK. When there was a rash of '00 and '01 Accords with auto transmission problems, after some hassle, they extended the trans warranty to 100,000 miles.
But note that if those Accord transmissions die at 106,000 miles the owners are still on their own. Sound familiar?
All you can do is play the odds, looking at past overall statistics to choose what to buy. But as I said, if YOUR car is the bad one in 5,000 of them, the statistics don't make you feel any better. Sorry about that!
Stanton
Even more ironic is that the direct deposit of my tax refund is scheduled to arrive in my bank account tomorrow.
DaveM
Yes that's the right stuff.
Even though you have over 60k miles, I think you would have still been eligible for the extended head gasket warranty. Did you get the service campaign letter?
DaveM
and the person I sold it to will shop it around to see who wants to fix it- I'm looking at the Honda CRV- Toyota RAV4 and Highlander, the Hyundai Sante Fe and Mazda Tribute.. all but the Highlander will be about $20,000 with comparable equipment.. using the carsdirect price. Hard choices... but I'm starting over and meticulously maintaining another car and hoping for 200k+.. thanks all
sorry for the venting, but I'm the kind of person that likes life to be fair- and work my best to see that it is.. got to chill... do the kids still say that?
Let's just hope lightning doesn't strike twice.
Stanton: wow, are you serious, his Toyota managed to sludge up synthetic oil? That's almost impossible.
BTW - I fully agree that Honda was a LOT more forthcoming than Toyota.
Betsy: nice to see you again, after last night's chat. Welcome.
letspik: no car is perfect, so do some research on the web before you jump in and buy. For example:
CR-V: steve_, "Honda CR-V engine fires" #1, 14 Sep 2004 12:47 pm
Highlander: as good as that car looks on paper, we shopped for one and read the boards and owners had plenty of complaints
Santa Fe: watch gas mileage and resale value
Tribute: it's a Ford, with 6 recalls in the first year alone
I'm just saying, no car is perfect.
-juice
I think the cold engine noise is a combination of the engine characteristic and the higher idle speed.
Craig
I would definitely avoid the Mazda and Hyundai, but the Honda and Toyotas are good vehicles. I don't care for the handling of the CR-V, but if it doesn't bother you, it's a very nice and roomy vehicle and classic Honda. Maybe consider an Element too -- they're fun.
Fairness has a way of working out. In fact, if Subaru loses you to Honda as a customer, I think you're already getting even!
Craig
Cheers!
Paul
Stanton
Thanks for the response.
Yep, it sludged up enough to total the engine. Brian did most of his own maintenance on the car. I guess there might have been some time when he was on the road and had to have a lube shop do the oil change, but that would be a very rare occurence. I stopped keeping track of the full gory history of the Toyota sludge mess, but I think there was some spot in the cylinder head where the oil temp got high enough to break down even synthetic oil. Apparently a design flaw.
My son bought a VERY used Toyota pickup back in about 1997 and when we pulled the valve cover to adjust valves, it was pretty much filled with sludge and varnish. It had been an auto parts delivery car, so we just figured it had been neglected. In hindsight, that may have been a tipoff to the much later sludge fiasco in other Toyotas.
Stanton