CR-V vs Escape

dromedarius · June 2005

Honda has not offered ANY products people want? Car and Driver listed the Odyssey and Pilot as their category winners for 5Best Trucks, and the Honda Accord was their best family sedan for 19th time in the past 23 years. (This doesn't include the two Acuras that also made the 10Best Cars list.) That's winner of 5 of the 15 categories. As for edmunds.com, the CR-V is listed the most wanted for a SUV under $25,000 for the fourth time in a row, and the Odyssey, Civic coupe, Accord sedan and Pilot were ranked most wanted in their respective categories as well. No great product, huh?

As for the Honda's costing more, that's kinda a "duh" thing. Better quality means higher price. The higher resale, more safety, better efficiency and superior interior room are just some of the "perks" that come with owning a Honda, and more than offset the slightly higher initial cost.

As for your "region", I find it funny that Civics are selling at 19k and Focuses are selling at 9k. The market sets the value, so I guess Fords aren't really valued in your market, which is why you got such a great deal on your Escape. You can choose to pay for your vehicle up front, or when you go to trade it in. You chose to do the latter, and I'm glad your happy with your purchase.

dromedarius · June 2005

I should point out that you are listing MSRPs for Honda's, and TMV-type prices for Fords. That isn't in the slightest bit fair (and I'm sure you're probably aware of that), as just with Fords, people generally don't pay sticker for Hondas, although it is true you'll pay closer to that number than with a Ford, especially with the large rebates the domestics are forced to offer in order to push their product. FWIW, around here, you can into a Focus for about $11,000, including the rebate, and into a Civic for about $14,000. This is off topic for this thread, but it seems like just about everything BUT Escape vs. the CR-V is where this thread has gone...

PS - The 2005 Honda CR-V won Motor Trends' Buyer Guide Intellichoice "Best Value in Class" award for compact SUVs over $21,000.

stever · June 2005

This is off topic for this thread, but it seems like just about everything BUT Escape vs. the CR-V is where this thread has gone...

The signal to noise ratio in here is a bit high. I'd hate to see the comments in here if Chevy purchased Honda (or vice versa)!

Steve, Host

blueiedgod · June 2005

14.5K for a Civic Si.. no way, asked my friend who manages a Honda dealership and he laughed. 19K at least as new, was his response... Do you know what Civic EX's go for in my region? 19K!!

Your Honda manager is probably the one who still has the 2002 Civic Si sitting in the back lot because he wanted to cash out on the $3500 incentive, Honda threw in with the 2002 Civic Si, and get MSRP. I know there are a few dealers who have 2002 Civic Si sitting in their back lots because they were not willing to "wheel and deal." My dealer told me upfront that there is a $3500 incentive to move the 2002 Civic Si because a bean counter at Honda over estimated the 15,000 initial release number. Honda has since cut the importation of the Si to a more sellable 5000 unit a year. This is what drove the prices back up.

2005 Honda Civic EX 2 door is showing at $15,300, and 4 door at $15,600 in my zip code. So, whoever is paying the $18,888 for Civic ES is either not very bright, or this is a loaded EX special edition with dealer installed leather. My dealer has a Civic Si for $19,500, but that is hooptied up one with HFP package and aftermarket wheels.

But anyway, back to CR-V vs. Escape. You got your escape for 0.9% for 36 months, I got my 2005 CR-V for 2.9% for 60 months, and I had the Civic at 1.9% for 60 months. What was the rate for 60 months when you got the Escape at 0.9%? So, you have a 4 year old Escape that you have paid off, big whopptie doo, how much is it worth? a 2001 CR-V EX with 48,000 miles still sells for $13,000 private party and $14,500 dealer retail Edmunds appraisal, can you say that about your Escape? $11,500 and $12,800 respectivley

baggs32 · June 2005

The same can be said for Ford. The Freestyle is new to their lineup.

Varmint,
Sure you can say that but no one said Ford's sales were up and eating anyone else's lunch which is what I was targeting. If whomever posted the original comment thinks Honda's light truck division is eating Ford's lunch they're crazy. We all know that Ford sells more F-150s than Honda sells in total vehicles each year and it's crazy to even elude to Honda being a major threat to the big three when they led the way in sales decline last month.

I for one am very interested to see what happens to Accord and Camry sales once the Fusion/Milan/Zephyr triplets are released. I don't think those three will take over the crown but they are definitely poised to steal some big numbers away.

snowman · June 2005

"As for the Honda's costing more, that's kinda a "duh" thing. Better quality means higher price. "

I guess you didn't look at the links I posted or you dont follow Honda Accord quality control issues or CRV problems forums... :surprise:

snowman · June 2005

"I for one am very interested to see what happens to Accord and Camry sales once the Fusion/Milan/Zephyr triplets are released. I don't think those three will take over the crown but they are definitely poised to steal some big numbers away."

I strongly agree and indeed Ford is doing very nice job on product line, I am sure success will follow...

varmint · June 2005

"if you come back to 'the right tool for the job', then the duratec fits that description. it is tuned to have a wide torque curve, not max peak horsepower. i don't see too many (any?) owner complaints about it."

Gas mileage. I've read plenty of complaints about gas mileage. People complain when their CR-V averages 22 mpg. People driving Escape's claim that 22 mpg is pretty good.

varmint · June 2005

Yes, I agree that Honda is not eating Ford's lunch when it comes to truck sales. Maybe stealing a potato puff or two would be a better description.

But Honda's truck sales are up. And Ford's truck sales are down. You cannot claim that Honda's sales are up simply because Honda added a new model. Not when Ford has done the same thing.

suvtime · June 2005

Scape it would seem obvious as to the reason why the Civic wouldn't be included in the small car comparison. Why bother, when a totally new Civic will be released later this year. I would guarantee it will be included in almost all small car comparisons and I won't be surprised if it came out on top.

baggs32 · June 2005

But Honda's truck sales are up. And Ford's truck sales are down. You cannot claim that Honda's sales are up simply because Honda added a new model. Not when Ford has done the same thing.

I see where you're coming from now and I didn't realize Ford actually classifies the Freestyle as a light truck. I just checked it and was a bit surprised by that finding.

However, you know as well as I that Ford adding a new model is not the same as Honda adding one for several reasons. I'll only mention two since this is a bit off topic.

All things considered the Freestyle actually isn't an all-new model. It's basically the wagon version of the Five Hundred and the Taurus had a wagon version before it. So it's not like the FS is adding sales that were never there before as the Ridgeline is. Next consider one of the big losers last month for Ford's light truck division, the Freestar minivan. Sales were down about 2700 units from the previous month (April) which was a 25+% decrease. I don't think Honda has a light truck that can decrease so little yet lose so much ground in one month do they? I would think having something like that in their lineup of clones with different sheet metal and different names (To be fair Ford is beginning to go down that path too) would be devastating to their bottom line. With no other models based off of it's platform to keep things moving at the plant Honda would have their hands full. Much like Ford and GM do now.

dromedarius · June 2005

Every vehicle has quality controls of one kind or another. I don't see why this is such a revelation for you. No car is perfect. Regardless, the biggest gripes about CR-V seem to be the engine fire after the first oil change and PTTR. Neither is a major concern for me. There is a reason the CR-V gets the "Lowest True Cost to Own" award from Edmunds, and you don't get that award by having quality problems.

stevedebi · June 2005

Freestyle: It has to be classified as a light truck, because the MPG would drag down the CAFE for cars otherwise.

I was never saying that Honda was selling more CR-Vs than Escapes. It has always sold less vehicles (though I bet if you included world wide sales the situation might be reversed, pitting all version of the CR-V against all variants of the Escape platform). But the important thing is the sales percentages, which I didn't bring up anyway; someone else listed misleading percentages, and I was attempting to set the record straight.

And yes, someone is eating FMC's lunch in truck sales. Every one of their trucks is vastly down for the year; excursion is over 30%. Or quite possibly a number of somebodies, dividing the market against FMC and GM.

The Mecury version of the Escape is new, isn't it? So the sales figures would be skewed from last year? Or was it introduced in 2003?

baggs32 · June 2005

The Mecury version of the Escape is new, isn't it? So the sales figures would be skewed from last year? Or was it introduced in 2003?

Not when you are looking at Ford light trucks because they don't lump all of the other brands together. Below are Mercury's figures for the end of May. You'll see what a model that didn't exist the previous year can do for the bottom line.

Model May05 May04 %chg YE0505 YE0504 %chg
Mariner 2,549 0 NA 13,871 0 NA
Mountaineer 2,838 3,770 -24.7 14,459 18,814 -23.1
Monterey 328 1,168 -71.9 3,548 6,024 -41.1
Total Mercury Trucks
5,715 4,938 15.7 31,878 24,838 28.3

If you can explain to me how Mercury light truck sales were up by 15.7% for the month and 28.3% YTD for a reason other than the new Mariner I'd sure like to hear it.

stevedebi · June 2005

"If you can explain to me how Mercury light truck sales were up by 15.7% for the month and 28.3% YTD for a reason other than the new Mariner I'd sure like to hear it."

Uhhh, I think you misunderstood my post. I was saying that the Mariner sales skewed the numbers upwards, because there were very few sales a year ago, which agrees with your post...

I was replying to some people who were claiming that Ford truck sales weren't that bad over all (or the equivelant idea).

YEOW! -71% down on the Mercury large SUV? Woah...

dromedarius · June 2005

In the past year and a half, Ford has recalled the Escape FOUR times:

http://consumeraffairs.com/news03/ford_escape_recall.html

http://4wheeldrive.about.com/b/a/131892.htm

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/recalls04/ford_escape.html

http://maintenance.autoblog.com/entry/1234000020025193/

Once because the engine stalls, once because the accelerator sticks, once because the seatbelts were failing to latch, and once because the rear gate flies open. All required between 130,000 and 500,000 vehicles to come into the shop. This is JUST for the Escape, and doesn't include the FOUR recalls the Escape endured just after it was released, or the numerous Firestone tire fiascos.

:lemon:

So, if I get this straight, your engine stalls, so you stomp on the gas, at which point the accelerator sticks and your rear hatch flies open, and then you find out your seatbelt isn't latched. Then you're left praying your tire doesn't blow up. Talk about a wild ride! Boy, it's fun to twist things!!!

drive62 · June 2005

Over and over in the past year I posted REAL numbers showing how an Escape has a higher price than a comparably equipped CR-V yet someone still doesn't believe it.

Look up the posts. The numbers haven't changed.

Sales figures? Well I go by my local poll. Seven CR-Vs in the subdivision. No Escapes. At work there are two Escapes but at least three times as many CR-Vs. I do live in an area where imports tend to do well but still it surprises me a bit. One co-worker traded in her Escape for a Focus. She said the gas mileage was killing her. At least she stayed in the Ford family so the Escape must not have been too bad.

baggs32 · June 2005

I hear ya now Steve.

YEOW! -71% down on the Mercury large SUV? Woah..

I think you were looking at the Monterey minivan which doesn't sell well to begin with. Not that the Mountaineer is doing much better. FWIW if I were to choose between a Mountaineer and an Explorer I'd go with the former due to it's longer list of standard amenities and slightly nicer interior.

stevedebi · June 2005

"I think you were looking at the Monterey minivan which doesn't sell well to begin with. "

Thanks, I don't keep up with the Mercury line that much. However, I should have remembered it is the Navigator as the large SUV...

snowman · June 2005

If cars could have personality, I would say CRV was a hypocrite.

While having 14 recalls since 1997, I think it is little absurd to talk about Escape's recall history, huh..

http://auto-recalls.justia.com/HONDA-CR-V.html

:surprise: , 3 less recalls huh, this really makes CRV the most realiable small SUV...

Oh! BTW, at least Ford is correcting things, not like suppressing and dismissing valid defects and problems like CRV engine fires and pulling, V6 transmission failures on Odyssey and Accord

explorerx4 · June 2005

one thing most people don't realize is that recalls may apply to a large number of vehicles, but may only affect a few. also, if you don't sell a lot, there won't be a 'big' recall.

stevedebi · June 2005

"If cars could have personality, I would say CRV was a hypocrite.

While having 14 recalls since 1997, I think it is little absurd to talk about Escape's recall history, huh.."

well, I think that it is amazing that a car can talk at all. I'm going to have to go back and re-read my CR-V owner's manual, and hope this isn't a 2005 model year addition.

dromedarius · June 2005

You forgot to mention that the CR-V has been in production almost twice as long, yet still has three less recalls. Oops!!!

blueiedgod · June 2005

If cars could have personality, I would say CRV was a hypocrite.

While having 14 recalls since 1997, I think it is little absurd to talk about Escape's recall history, huh..
http://auto-recalls.justia.com/HONDA-CR-V.html

, 3 less recalls huh, this really makes CRV the most realiable small SUV...

Oh! BTW, at least Ford is correcting things, not like suppressing and dismissing valid defects and problems like CRV engine fires and pulling, V6 transmission failures on Odyssey and Accord

Yet, you failed to mention that out of 14 recalls
4 are for the same part - ELECTRICAL SYSTEM:IGNITION:SWITCH
2 for ELECTRICAL SYSTEM:WIRING:INTERIOR/UNDER DASH
2 for POWER TRAIN:AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION
3 for AIR BAGS:FRONTAL
Since Honda uses same parts over multiple year, recalling one part in a 1998 model will result in recall of the same part in subsequent model year. So for 14 recalls 11 are the same part, just in different model years. Leaving only 3 other recalls that are model year specific.

Look slike Escape has 17 recalls and only 3 are repeated for the same part.
http://auto-recalls.justia.com/FORD-ESCAPE.html

Since you brough the Oddysey and Accord into the equation, check out the total recalls for each maker.

Honda (383)
Ford (3087)

Hmmm, something to think about. I think I know who to stick with.

Kirstie_H · June 2005

A reporter is interested in speaking with people who have had their vehicle recalled in the first part of this year. If your vehicle has been the subject of a recall and you would like to speak with this reporter, please send your name and daytime phone number to Pam Krebs, Edmunds.com PR, at pkrebs@edmunds.com by Tuesday, July 5. Thank you.

varmint · June 2005

Recalls don't make or break a car's reputation for reliability. It's the many problems which do not result in a recall that get owners miffed.

stevedebi · June 2005

"Oh! BTW, at least Ford is correcting things, not like suppressing and dismissing valid defects and problems like CRV engine fires and pulling"

Honda didn't dismiss anything. The solution to the engine fire was more careful mechanics when doing oil changes. As far as I can see, the pull to the right issue has been solved by some adjustments to the front end. I think that some dealers aren't willing to work with their customers on the latter issue.

In my experience, those who have no argument resort to calling names... just food for thought.

tidester · June 2005

those who have no argument resort to calling names

I think we've pushed anthropomorphizing to the limit here!

tidester, host

snowman · June 2005

Over all, don't quite get what you are trying to say...
Bringing the recall history of Escape and correlating Escape to lemon is the first thing
After getting hit by the same gun, carrying recall discussion to # of particular parts in recalls is the second thing...
Bringing Firestone quality problems to CRV-Escape forum is the third thing...

If quality and reliability directly related to # of recalls that particular vehicle has, as you pointed, then may be you should have bought something else (may be Kia Sorento?? cause this make/model doesn't have any recalls yet).

PS:
Honda (383) Ford (3087)?????
Have you looked at how many models existed under Ford's page and compared it with how many models Honda has?

stevedebi · June 2005

Actually, I thought my post abou my CR-V talking to me was the limit...

tidester · June 2005

LoL! Good point - but you know that talking to plants is said to help them thrive so one might expect them occasionally to talk back and express their gratitude. The same might be true of CR-Vs.

tidester, host

stevedebi · June 2005

"Good point - but you know that talking to plants is said to help them thrive so one might expect them occasionally to talk back and express their gratitude. The same might be true of CR-Vs."

Oh, I have no problem talking to my CR-V; it is when it begins talking back that I get worried.

blueiedgod · June 2005

Over all, don't quite get what you are trying to say...

Not rocket science, Ignition switch defect in a 1998 model will be the same defect in the consequive years, until the defect was found and eliminated. Thus, 4 are for the same part - ELECTRICAL SYSTEM:IGNITION:SWITCH, while in reality it is the same part that had a defect. It was reported 4 times because it affected 4 different model years that used the same component. 4 recalls are for the same part = 1 failed part, and so on...
2 for ELECTRICAL SYSTEM:WIRING:INTERIOR/UNDER DASH
2 for POWER TRAIN:AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION
3 for AIR BAGS:FRONTAL

14 recalls - 11 for the same part = 3 other components + first 4 components = 7 components that had defect.

Hopefully this cleared up the confusion.

blueiedgod · June 2005

Lifted from "the other forum"
These cars, all 2002 models, have held up the best after three years, according to a survey.

NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - These 2002 model-year vehicles ranked first in their categories in the most recent J.D. Power and Associates Vehicle Dependability Study.

Compact car: 2002 Chevrolet Prizm

Entry midsize car: 2002 Chevrolet Malibu

Premium midsized car: 2002 Buick Century

Full-size car: 2002 Buick LeSabre

Entry luxury car: 2002 Ford Thunderbird

Mid luxury car: 2002 Lincoln Town Car

Premium luxury car: 2002 Lexus LS 430

Sporty car: 2002 Mazda Miata

Premium sports car: 2002 Porsche 911

Midsized pick-up: 2002 Chevrolet S-10

Light-duty full-sized pick-up: 2002 Cadillac Escalade EXT

Entry SUV: 2002 Honda CR-V

Midsized SUV: 2002 Toyota 4Runner

Full-sized SUV: 2002 GMC Yukon/Yukon XL

Entry luxury SUV: 2002 Lexus RX 300

Premium luxury SUV: 2002 Lexus LX 470

Midsized van: 2002 Ford Windstar

Full-sized van: 2002 Ford E-series

No Escape :-)

These are not initial quality ratings, but a 3 year reliability ratings. Even with the "numerous" engine fires and transmisison failures CR-V is the top dog, compare to the "problem free" Escape/Tribute/Mariner....

snowman · June 2005

"These are not initial quality ratings, but a 3 year reliability ratings. Even with the "numerous" engine fires and transmisison failures CR-V is the top dog, compare to the "problem free" Escape/Tribute/Mariner...."

First of all, engine fire and transmission issues are not applicable to this study.
This list covers only 50635 original 2002 year make/model owners. You are not trying to tell me engine fire and transmission issues existed on 02 CRVs, are you? So, saying CRV is top dog based on this study doesnt have any face value.

I wouldn't expect to see Escape in that list. Escape was born in 2001 and Model year 2002 is the SECOND and the worst year of Escape which I find normal for new model to have problems.
Escape improved and took the control of small SUV market since 2003.
In order for you to say CRV is top dog BASED ON JD Power's Vehicle Dependability Index Study (VDI), you need to wait 2006-07-08's studies hence they will cover 2003-2004-2005 year models.

I looked at JD's site to see how CRV was doing in second year of production, but there was no VDI. JD started this on 2002 which covers 1999 production year. This is what I found:

2002 VDI (Covers 1999)
Civic, Accord, Prelude, CRV, Odyssey
2003 VDI (Covers 2000)
Civic, CRV
2004 VDI (Covers 2001)
Insight, Prelude, CRv, Odyssey
2005 VDI (Covers 2002)
S2000, CRv

After all, 2005 list doesn't have any other models from Honda. If you are counting on 2005 VDI this much to prove your point that Escape is not better than CRV, then you are also admitting that Honda is loosing too much in terms of dependability and VDI of following years may not show CRV at all.

Just to cross examination this is what Ford is doing in terms of Vehicle Dependability

2002 VDI (Covers 1999)
Crown Vic, Grand Marquis, Tracer, Lincoln Continental, Mustang, F-150,
F-250, Expedition, Villager, E-Series Club Wagon

2003 VDI (Covers 2000)
Crown Vic, Grand Marquis, F-Series, Expedition, Econoline, Villager, Lincoln Town Car

2004 VDI (Covers 2001)
Crown Vic, Grand Marquis, Lincoln Town Car, Ranger, F-150, 250, 350, Mountaineer

2005 VDI (Covers 2002)
Crown Vic, grand Marquis, Thunderbird, Lincoln LS, Lincoln Town Car, F-150, F-250,F-350, Explorer, Expedition, Windstar, Villager, E-series

PS: I am aware that Ford has 21 models vs 9 models from Honda, but all the bragging I have been hearing about dependability, satisfaction etc from Honda crowd here, I excpected to see more models of Honda in JD list.

stevedebi · June 2005

"Just to cross examination this is what Ford is doing in terms of Vehicle Dependability

2002 VDI (Covers 1999)
Crown Vic, Grand Marquis, Tracer, Lincoln Continental, Mustang, F-150,
F-250, Expedition, Villager, E-Series Club Wagon

2003 VDI (Covers 2000)
Crown Vic, Grand Marquis, F-Series, Expedition, Econoline, Villager, Lincoln Town Car

2004 VDI (Covers 2001)
Crown Vic, Grand Marquis, Lincoln Town Car, Ranger, F-150, 250, 350, Mountaineer

2005 VDI (Covers 2002)
Crown Vic, grand Marquis, Thunderbird, Lincoln LS, Lincoln Town Car, F-150, F-250,F-350, Explorer, Expedition, Windstar, Villager, E-series"

Uh, you do realize that the Escape is not on this list anywhere? So I'm afraid I'm again missing your point vis-a-vis CR-V vs. Escape .

snowman · June 2005

I guess you are not reading carefully....

Technically, Escape could be in 2004 or 2005 VDI (which corresponds 2001 and 2002)...
Then I wrote

"I wouldn't expect to see Escape in that list. Escape was born in 2001 and Model year 2002 is the SECOND and the worst year of Escape which I find normal for new model to have problems."

Why are you still looking for Escape in the list?????????

If you wonder the relevancy of those two lists to the subject then here is my explanation:
I posted them to support my point that Ford is contributing more and more vehicles into that list while your beloved Honda is loosing vehicles which contradicts what you (Honda crowd) are bragging about.
Why, I guess, poeple don't find Honda any more reliable than other cars...

If you still don't get it here is another point of view:
Do you see Accord there since 2002? Is last generation Accord a bad car?

PS: Please pay attention that I am not discussing about Accord or Civic or any other models. I am pointing these models to Honda Crowd to show your nonsense in your argument.

stevedebi · June 2005

"I guess you are not reading carefully..."

No, I read your post carefully. It was your presentation of Ford's supposed quality based on other models than the Escape that I was referring to. Regardless of the quality of model years 2001-2002, one cannot make a judgement on "CR-V vs. Escape" based on vehicles other than, well, uh, CR-V vs. Escape. I could care less if the Accord is on any such list; I don't own one. I own a CR-V, so your "P.S." didn't make sense to me either.

That was my point, perhaps I should have stated it simpler...

mikefm58 · June 2005

I must admit, I was surprised by the list. Kudos to GM for making it to the top. I would expect any vehicle in the early years of a new design to have more problems than one in the last year of it's design. Which is why I was surprised to see the CRV at the top in it's segment. Wasn't 2002 the first year of the new design?

explorerx4 · June 2005

if i read the results correctly, the crv gets as good a rating as a malibu. big excitement there.

actually i'm glad to see the mailbu get a good rating since i convinced my mother to break her 40 year streak of buying chrysler products.
there is more to owning a vehicle than reliability. if i hate driving it every minute, i am not thinking about the other attributes.

dromedarius · June 2005

"I guess you are not reading carefully..."

"No, I read your post carefully. It was your presentation of Ford's supposed quality based on other models than the Escape that I was referring to. Regardless of the quality of model years 2001-2002, one cannot make a judgement on "CR-V vs. Escape" based on vehicles other than, well, uh, CR-V vs. Escape. I could care less if the Accord is on any such list; I don't own one. I own a CR-V, so your "P.S." didn't make sense to me either. "

Thank you, Steve! I don't know how many times a person can type this: The thread is CR-V vs. Escape. Not Honda vs. Ford. Not Accord vs. Crown Victoria and/or F150. Obviously, the CR-V is the more reliable vehicle. The point has been made and proven over and over again.

snowman · June 2005

Thank you, Steve! I don't know how many times a person can type this: The thread is CR-V vs. Escape. Not Honda vs. Ford. Not Accord vs. Crown Victoria and/or F150. Obviously, the CR-V is the more reliable vehicle. The point has been made and proven over and over again."

Yeah sure, if you see everyhting black and white, this is the point of view you can have...

"Obviously, the CR-V is the more reliable vehicle."

Really...
Just because some 3rd party firm did some research on 50635 people and CRV made to that list?

I wonder, since you are relying on this to prove your point, why can't you show me, how many Escape owners were in the pool of 50635 people. I wonder, they even got the survey?

Any of you 01-02 escape owners, did you guys get the survey?

You must note that these surveys disregard a reliable indicator of a vehicle's popularity in the only arena where it really counts: the commercial marketplace. There is only one objective measure for that: the sales charts.

dromedarius · June 2005

Since you brought JD up as an indicator of Ford's "superior" quality to Honda, I figured it would be good enough for you. :P Actually, that was until you realized the mistake you made by posting that, which stevedebi was quick to point out (I was thinking the same thing, but I had to wait to respond until I was on my home PC).

Besides you listing JD as a source Ford quality which actually has the CR-V as more reliable (by virtue of it being on the list every year, and the Escape having never been on it), the number of recalls for each vehicle, the fact that Edmunds lists the CR-V as the "Lowest True Cost to Own", which is yet another indicator of quality, I think it's pretty apparent. Except to you. Since you aren't going to except any kind of proof anyway, not even your own. :confuse: And BTW, total sales have absolutely NOTHING to do with reliability. Thought I'd point that one out.

snowman · June 2005

I don't quite get it why you are getting excited this much to have 2002 CRV as some survey's winner. I even indicated that I wouldn't expect to see Escape in that study.

You still need to understand that you are talking about 2002 CRv's dependability, we are in 2005. This JD report can't change the fact about transmission failures, defective suspension components, engine fires etc that are occuring NOW.

What you had in that year as competitor? Two year old Escape, strugling with new design issues.

Well since you are accepting JD as a source of quality then we have a fact here that Honda has 2 reliable vehicle in year 2002.

dromedarius · June 2005

The ONLY factor which comes into account when talking about quality is history. Obviously, you don't want me to use history and/or third party sources. That doesn't leave a whole lot for me to use then, does it? Since you're discounting just about everything which is valid, what am I supposed to use for proof?

PS - You might want to check the engine fire issue. It has nothing to do with quality. It's a training issue, and we're talking about vehicle quality, not service quality.

snowman · June 2005

Any one / any company / any government who has money and time can write a history book and get it published. Important thing is how objective it is.

I have no objection for you to use history but you are twisting the fact to prove your point. You are declaring CRV as most reliable small SUV based on some survey that doesn't have merit even tough the very same survey can be used to show improvements on Ford models and can be used to prove Honda sucked big time on 2002. Actually, the survey results itself prove that it doesn't have any merit.

When I bring the merit of this survey to discussion, one says "Heck, I don't have Accord, don't care other than CRV" reply comes. Well, heck I don't have 2002 Escape, dont care, I have 2005 Escape, it is much better vehicle than 2005 CRV, bring your 2005 CRV and lets compare or hush... would be my response. To me they are the same logic.

******************************************************************************************- - - - - - - - ********
The engine fire thing is part of engineering and part of business issue which they highly contribute to quality.It is engineering issue cause oil filter is located on top of very hot surface (exhaust monifold? may be), it is business issue cause maker opted to use unappropriate and cheap oil filter gasket which was soppose to be coming off with the filter. Shifting blame to technicians is just lame. Those technicians have been changing oil for years.

baggs32 · July 2005

The engine fire thing is part of engineering and part of business issue which they highly contribute to quality.It is engineering issue cause oil filter is located on top of very hot surface (exhaust monifold? may be), it is business issue cause maker opted to use unappropriate and cheap oil filter gasket which was soppose to be coming off with the filter. Shifting blame to technicians is just lame. Those technicians have been changing oil for years.

That's absolutely right. Since someone brought up recalls (dromedarius too?), which we really know aren't really a measure of quality/reliability, as a quality issue I have to ask what makes this any different? It's an engineering issue that effects one of the most basic, and important, vehicle maintenance needs. One that hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of weekend warriors tackle on their own. That's a pretty big problem if you ask me.

Seriously though, you really have to account for CR-V fires when judging it's reliability for yourself because it's not like the Escape's "big one" (stalling in some V6 models) where you could just start right back up and be on your way. If your CR-V catches on fire, you're not driving it EVER again. Add all of those "0s" in there for 2004/2005 CR-V reliability and that J.D. Power study in 2007/2008 is going to look a little different. That is, if they survey the right people, which is a whole other issue that I'm not getting into right now.

blueiedgod · July 2005

I wouldn't expect to see Escape in that list. Escape was born in 2001 and Model year 2002 is the SECOND and the worst year of Escape which I find normal for new model to have problems

The 2002 CR-V is the FIRST MODEL YEAR for the second generation CR-V.

We both bought our cars at about the same time. While this is not a biggie, the Escape had a lose bolt just sitting on top of the air cleaner box. I have no clue where it came from, but any competent line assembler, or dealer detailer would have seen it. It is hard to miss it, a decent sized gold colored bolt, just sitting there. I could not find a spot where it fell from, if it ever did. Last weekend, the bump stops for the hatch were found on the driveway by our cat. Apparantley someone did not insert them properly into the opennings in the hatch. I put them in with an aid of a small screwdriver, and they stay in, for now. These are little things that I have noticed so far, who knows if someone carelessly forgot to tighten a bolt in the engine or transmission, or the brake line was not fitted properly. These small things indicate how the car is assembled.

I rest my case.

snowman · July 2005

First of all you didn't established a case to rest, you failed to bring solid evidence to prove CRV is better than Escape. Everything you post here came back and hit you.

"The 2002 CR-V is the FIRST MODEL YEAR for the second generation CR-V..."

There is a significant difference updating an existing vehicle and putting a brand new model into market. You don't need to be whiz kid to undestand that.

"These small things indicate how the car is assembled. "

Another failure to prove your point...
Go back to CRV problems forum and read freshly posted postings # 3079 (regarding 2002 CRV) and 3084 (lemon law exercise by 2005 CRV owner). :P

3034 and 3037 pulling issue still occurs despite what stevedebi claims. Owner got the TSB performed as well.

So before you come here and talk about the screw you found on intake and associate this to quality, go back to your own forum and read what other fellow CRV owners talk about. You are hypocrite.

Enjoy your rest...

scape2 · July 2005

This room has heated up and I don't know where to start.
Honda hides its TSB's and does not allow the public to see them all. This has already beeen proven on this board over and over and over agiain. I am sure many of you have hear the latests from JD powers. GM AND Ford have made some significant gains in reliability and quality. I feel the internet has blown the doors off of Honda and its perceived advantage in reliability. Look out on the net there are plenty of peeved off Honda owners with issues. Honda swpt the engine fire issues in the CRv under the carpet, but thats ok, its a Honda right? The Escape is reliable and a well built vehicle. I ran into a guy who owns a 2002, towing a load of 2900lbs! normally. His Escape has 73,000 miles, not on problems. If the Escape is so unreliable, and so inferior to the CRv then why do people buy more of them than the CRV?
I am so far behind I don't know who do respond to on this next topic. My percentage rate was 0.9 percent for 3 years not 4. Honda NEVER, has offered this incentive. I paid less for my Escape along with paying less in interest than any CRV owner. Honda's cost more in my region by thousands. Heck even when comparing a Camry to an Accord the Camry is $1200 less!!

CR-V vs Escape

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles