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Please, don't tell me the Scion is coming from the factory with those giant rims and racing stickers slapped all over it. If so, that will be the first car that qualifies for beaterz.com right off the showroom floor. Ugh!
-Andrew L
BTW- Have you watched 13th Child: Legend of the Jersey Devil yet?
Maybe I missed it. Anyway, it will be good to see it in person. Thanks.
I went to the website and hit "models" without reading the at a glance page. They only have the Sorento and Rav4 listed under Small SUVs :P
In real life (as opposed to fake life?), it's bigger than it appears. Saw them sitting at the dealer's lots, as I have the luxury of living near a Chevy/Hyundai/Jeep/Mitsubishi dealer and a Kia/Isuzu dealer.
I wonder if element could pull that one off
Unfortunatly, they put it up on the turnstyle and I got to listen to people complain they couldn't sit in it.
I heard mostly positive comments. Surprisingly most of the interest came from people in their 60's and older?
Go figure...
Putting it up on a turnstyle isn't any better than lookin at pitchers on the internet. I want to SIT in the thing.
Feh.
A GREAT BIG thing for them...a "full size" spare!
Of course they remember the days of inner tubes and endless flat tires, I guess.
I'm a GenY driver, and just put a deposit down on an Element, but I have to admit that all my friends think I'm crazy.
Steve, Host
It sometimes amazes me that vehicles like the Escape, Forester, and others are designed for (limited) use off-road and towing, but, once a tire is punctured, they're on the bench. The Pilot is another (though you can fit a full-size spare in place of the donut).
My wife's Legacy had a donut, but when I bought alloy rims I kept a steelie and mounted a full size tire on that, too. It fits in the well. On a GT it's supposed to fit, too, but not on the Outback because the tire is much bigger.
Maybe you were thinking about the Outback. Interestingly, in Australia they come with slightly smaller 215 tires, instead of 225s, and the Aussies get full size spares, too.
That Scion is horribly ugly. The Element is a super-model next to it. Much bigger and more useful, too. Toyota had better price those very low or it'll be the next $2000 rebate special. The Echo has failed, why do they think variations on that car will sell well?
I kind of like the Sorento, though. It's a true mid-sizer. Sorento has the torque to tow 3500 lbs, side-curtain air bags, and a full frame with a low range. That it looks just like the RX300 (the best selling Lexus) won't hurt it, either.
Resale is the sore spot. But did you see that the Sante Fe actually scored well in reliability and earned a recommnedation from you-know-who? The Koreans remind me of Honda in the early 80s.
-juice
I guess I've been spoiled with the few times I've used the fullsize spare on my VW.
Krunky - Yep. The Element uses a full diameter donut. Any vehicle with a reactive AWD system is required to have a full-size or full-diameter spare. With one tire smaller than the others, the AWD would sense a difference in axle speeds and be engaged 100% of the time. Unlike systems like those used in Audis and Subarus, that condition is likely to cause serious damage.
But I think my Miata with Land Rover-style roof mounted spare is a little over the top. ;-)
Element and Escape should have them, though, definitely. A narrow donut, even with the right diameter, will dig you right into the sand, and just look at where the ads show them.
Different diameters would harm RT4WD, but they'd also harm Subie's auto AWD or VC systems, too. They allow some axle variation, because they have a center differential, but not much.
-juice
however it is extremely annoying and a major turn off for a company to put a vehicle that is slated for production and force the consumers to salivate over it instead of getting a taste.
I saw the element back in April at the Atlanta auto show along with the pilot, both of which were on turn tables. and I got the same prototype story from customer service then as some are getting now.
my problem is many of us getting that story. yet their are plenty of shots of regular joes in elements at other shows.
how many prototypes does honda need?
their were at least 4 or 5 back when I saw element and now their are so many I've lost count.
what a lame excuse.
I personally am beginning to wonder about it myself. has anyone else noticed the peculiarity with hondas presentation of the element? a company so secretive with every other vehicle it launches and yet we seem to know most everything about it save the most important point ... price.
I personally hope they surprise us by undercutting some of the original price projections (a likely pipe dream I know)
but it seems the more I hear about the element the more I keep thinking why didn't hondas just make a dx crv and use the protective coating and water resistant fabrics from the element?
price projections and production cost apparently are extremely close from an article I recently read. and judging from honda dealer quoted prices on automatic transmission and added air conditioning the base element gets extremely close to base crv price. all the while loosing 1 passenger seat, 2 rear roll down windows, stereo system, fuel economy,ect.
sorry about the rant but im beginning to get ill to say the least since I've been looking to buy since before last year at this time but I ended up holding off untill the matrix and then deciding to wait to sit in the element in April
and now im hearing how honda is still shafting others interested in its products some 7 months, after my own dissapointing experience, and just shy over a month untill the vehicles release.
I am not surprised. This model was rushed thru with desperate cost and weight cutting measures made. New parts everywhere. The first year will be a rough one for the Element. There will lots of used Elements for sale by mid-year after they discover its a little bit too slow, a little bit too small and cheaply made.
Its funny I have not seen this car but I feel I know it very well thanks to the net.
Now I am waiting for the real thing. The Acura version. Which IMHO will be a combination of the best things about the CRV and Element: More power perhaps hybrided. Regular 4 doors and seats 5. Longer for more cargo. Low, flat, wipe-able cargo area with tailgate. Painted cladding or no cladding at all. 2 sunroofs. Element suspension. Lets start a new forum topic LOL.
Despite not being able to get into the Element, the auto show wasn't a waste of time. Of course, I like to look at lots of different kinds of cars.
My wife really likes it, but I'm not sure if it will be right for her. She has really become used to the seat heaters and luxury feel of my Jetta, yet she insists that she wants another Honda (she has a 95 Accord) because hers has been so rock-solid reliable. I was rather impressed with the interior feel of the new Accord, however. Much more substantial and luxurious than the 98 I had.
Rushed? It is not that Honda had to start from scratch to build this vehicle. They had the platform and drivetrain to start with. It was time to get a different theme this time, and for that, couple of years of development might be enough.
As for cost cutting measures, I'm sure there are some, but then, who doesn't do cost cutting? If they don't, price will go up with every piece.
I wouldn't bother myself with 'new parts' excuse. First, I don't know what parts are new to worry about, and secondly, I leave it upto quality control of the company that delivers the vehicle, not assumptions.
People are already putting deposits down. I waiting to see how fast they end up in the used car lot. That is how GenY will really get them. If they get it cheap from some frustrated customer they won't care about plastic bits falling off. They will duct tape it back on. Brilliant scenario for Honda. Soak the boomers and still get GenY.
Its not that the Element is bad. It will frustrate a lot of impulse buyers. The suicide doors will irritate people. People will miss the 5th seat. Cargo bay cannot by made bigger by sliding the rear seats forward. They don't.
If you note the 5 speed MT AWD is delayed until JUNE! They are having problems.
it looked better from concept drawings though lol
Well, those are the things people need to think about before they get the vehicle, not after it. Are you suggesting that people will not notice lack of 'fifth' seat when they get the first look at the vehicle? You have been drawing a lot of conclusions for others. Is it from experience?
I work in automotive, and of all the new vehicles I've seen lately, the one with the crappiest build quality has to be the $50,000 Hummer H2.
Did they ever make cars "like they used to"?
What they want is dealer traffic, you and your family inside a dealership where a quick sale can be made, maybe even an impulse buy.
At an auto show, even if you love it to death, doesn't guarantee you'll buy it. They have everything to lose and nothing to gain.
I don't think the back seat is a big deal - I really think it'll appeal to people that rarely even use it. In a survey in DC, 90% of cars sampled had only the driver in it.
And teething issues with the latest generation of cars from Japan Inc is a real thing, just look at the list of formerly Mega-Reliable cars that are now just average:
Honda Civic
Nissan Altima
Toyota Camry
Subaru Impreza
So noone is immune. You could add Mazda Tribute, but that's much lower than average.
-juice
http://www.scion.com/see/see_bbx00.html
I find the Element much more coherent and well thought out. The design, while simplistic, is also complex with its angles and curves. I just don't think the Scion matches the Element in the subtle areas of design. But then again, that's the advantage of coming out 3 years after the Scion.
is it true that consumer reports has dropped its reliability rating to average?
This is the engine in an Element that would have shut up everyone including me.
They say the Euro Accord will end up being a NA Acura. Then the engine will be a Acura. Which means this engine is for the Acura RD-X (non-hybrid)? Will Honda really let the Element AT AWD slog along for years?
Also, it's very narrow. Look at that pic with the front seats - they're almost touching. No center console would fit. It'll feel claustrophobic, and you'll bump elbows with your passenger all the time.
But the bottom line is the Scion looks dorky, while the Element has an appeal that is hard to explain.
Civic has had something like 6 recalls since the launch. That's unheard of for Honda. It think Corolla is ahead in that regard.
-juice
The same way they got 240 hp out of a 2.0L block. Take a look at where the torque peak is for the Euro Accord. Apply that kind of power to the 3,400+ lbs in the Element. Don't get me wrong. 190 hp would move the Element rather smartly, but you'd have to rev it pretty hard.
A big, efficient 4 banger sometimes is better than a small V6. CR-V outruns the Santa Fe and XTerra easily.
-juice
but anyway I told the sales person I was looking at the accord, the cr-v and the element when it comes out. She informed me that they were already planning to hike the price like they had done to the pilot when its released, also said they were getting 3 or 4 dx's with build dates in mid December didn't really get more than that though.
on an interesting (and possibly alarming) side note I looked at a galopagos green civic and I personally really like the color much better than I thought I would . BUT while checking out the accords and waiting on the salesrep to get a key to an lx I finnaly spotted the infamous shoddy painting I've heard about recently on several message boards , and get this it was on of all things an accord ex-l v6. what exactly does this say about honda when their very flagship vehicle has a poor spray job on it? it was the desert mist metallic on the rear passenger fender by the way , it looked like a bad spray job on something that someone had tried to repair and they never bothered to do a second coat. I even squatted down to touch it to make sure it wasn't possibly dust.
I know before I buy anything I'm inspecting it head to toe in the sun (just like i would do a used car)and writing the vin down before I buy.
so much for thinking I can avoid a lemon or misrepresentation by buying new
Still, no big red dots overall next to any Honda, is the world coming to an end? ;-)
Sucks about the paint. You should always take a close look, though, and buy a car on a bright sunny day so any flaws would stand out. My cousin's Odyssey is gold and has several paint chips on it.
Take your family with you to the test drive. Load it up and sample it the way you're going to use it, including a highway on-ramp.
I think lots and lots of folks don't take a long enough test drive and look-see, and end up be bothered by things they could have noticed before the purchase, such as road noise or comfort.
-juice
The prices are Honda reasonable before dealer markup, but I doubt the target demographic has that kind of money to blow on a "lifestyle" vehicle.