Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Options
Honda Odyssey vs Dodge/Chrysler minivans
This discussion has been closed.
Popular New Cars
Popular Used Sedans
Popular Used SUVs
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
Here's another link that might interest:
http://www.unsafebelts.com/safety.shtml
If you are buying for resale this is a no-brainer. But if you keep cars for 10 years or so it doesn't really matter cause depreciation is a non-cash expense. Ever get a bill for depreciation?
Isn't that a line from Get Shorty?
Also, wasn't the crash test dummy's foot snapped off in the IIHS 40mph crash test of a late model GM minivan?
A friend has a lease on a T&C and at three years.. it's starting to get annoying minor problems.
Another friend has a 3 year old Odyessey with no problems. The Honda is not as stylish or luxurious, but I would bet that in the long run, it will cost less to own. I've owned enough Chryslers to know that they start wearing out well before 100K. They aren't terrible cars... they just aren't made as durable as some other cars.
Getting back to the Ody or DC question, I seem to notice that many DC owners have to have their trannys changed out at the 40K mile mark. All four friends of mine with DCs have had that problem - though it is not a statistically representative sample by any means, it still paints a bad picture in my mind.
Although the Odysseys now have a known history for potential tranny problems, I beleive that the figure is still way below industry averages, and certainly below the DC's track record.
When choosing between minivans, I always recommend shopping around. Nobody should have to pay thousands over MSRP - especially for an Odyssey! Didn't like a particular car dealership? Shop another!
Test drive both cars, and sit in them for a long time with the kids to see if it is the good fit for you.
As an Ody owner, I can certainly say, this minivan can stand to improve upon their reliability. I've had three minor issues with the sliding doors to date, and that's a bit much for a two year old minivan.
Would I trade it for a DC if I had to do it all over again? No. I'd take my chances with the 2% tranny failure rate over DC's track record. The third seat is a life-saver for my family, and the fit and finish is far superior to that of DC - IMHO.
No matter what you get, JUST DON'T GET THE SILHOUETTE/VENTURE minivans! The potential safety issues are just too big to ignore, IMHO.
WOW and you still stick with the Oddy. With all the improvements the DC has been doing, one can only wonder at your attitude. So you paid extra to get a van with unreliable doors, a potential transmission problem. I bet you hope to recover some of the overpayment when you sell the Oddy.
Good luck
PS I saw in the CR magazine that the reliability figure on the Oddy is now 2% to 5%, not the 2% that you quoted. I guess the Oddy is just turning into another mediocre minivan.
A sedan is not an option for the vast majority of minivan buyers. A sedan does not provide seating for seven (or more), has a fraction of the cargo room, does not allow one to pass between rows while inside the vehicle, sedans lack sliding doors making getting kids in/out of car seats more difficult and finally they are not as safe as the safest minivans. This is a minivan discussion, not a why a sedan meets my needs better discussion.
If you were so concerned with reliability why did you get a GM? (sorry couldn't help myself)
Steve, Host
Whatever floats your boat works for me ;-)
Steve, Host
Cool was when I cared. I had some pretty cool cars in my day. I can't tell you how many hours were spent washing, waxing, tuning, repairing and modifying. Then I got married. No need to be cool anymore - need to be practical and have comfort and convenience features.
Chevy Impala cooler than a minivan? Maybe, if it's a '68 Impala SS convert. with a 396 or 427 tri-power. If not, don't waste my time.
Go to that same web site and read the ratings for number of property and injury claims. The Olds Silhouette has the LOWEST (meaning least) % of claims of both categories of ALL large vehicles. Their numbers, not mine.
I have noticed that ANY manner of stating contrary information sparks all manner of attack, some personal. I have owned six new minivans of which three were absolute dogs: 1983 VW Vanagon, 1987 Nissan Van, 1993 Grand Caravan. The Nissan was SO bad that Nissan eventually had to buy them back as they were fire hazards. The best minis were a '90 Pontiac Transport and '97 Windstar. The jury is out on the '03 Silhouette.
I say "do your research". Go to as many auto site as possible and read the information, especially owner comments. I do not always trust the word of auto critics who get the vehicles to test for free. Consumer Reports (I am a subscriber for 30 years)only offers their OPINION. Just don't shoot from the hip.
Calling the GM Impala a sports sedan is a stretch. Considering all of the other vehicles that are truely representitive of this vehicle class, I would have to advise prospective buyers that they could do much better.
Go to that same web site and read the ratings for number of property and injury claims. The Olds Silhouette has the LOWEST (meaning least) % of claims of both categories of ALL large vehicles. Their numbers, not mine.
I have noticed that ANY manner of stating contrary information sparks all manner of attack, some personal."
Property, injury and death statistics do have a small component of crashworthiness in them. Unfortunately, they have a large component of nonvehicle factors like driver profile as well. A more likely conclusion is that Silhouette drivers are safer drivers on average than those of other minivans. This also explains why essentially identical vehicles such as the GM Trio, Voyager/Caravan, Quest/Villager and Sable/Taurus have varying results.
Even so, keep in mind that most minivans score in the best "Substantially Better than Average" category in the Injury and Death rates tabulated by the IIHS. Even if I was to ignore all the other relevant safety data available, the minor differences within the best category are probably not enough to claim one is significantly better than the other.
Crash tests, on the other hand, put vehicles in identical crash situations and measure direct injury and intrusion measures upon the occupants. You could also quibble about the rankings and specific injury measures of vehicles that received the same "4-star" in an NHTSA test or an "Acceptable" in the IIHS Offset test, but that probably isn't worth the effort, either. On the other hand, I am concerned when I start to see "3-star" ratings or "Marginal" IIHS results. If the automakers cannot design a vehicle to perform well in a long-established test whose parameters can be duplicated by manufacturers, why would I think they have made the effort to design the vehicle to perform well in crashes that may vary from the standardized tests?
While it's nice to know that other drivers of your vehicle tend to be safer than those of other vehicles, I would think that anyone genuinely concerned about safety as a top priority should also want to know that their vehicle does well in all the standardized crash/rollover tests and has a nice assortment of advanced safety and crash avoidance features. Of course, safety isn't the top priority for everyone. We all pick the vehicle that meets ALL our priorities the best, including price, long term value, comfort, convenience, performance, reliability, color selection, etc, etc.
For your information sedans have front and rear crush zones making the rear seat safer than the rear seat in a minivan. I simply expressed the opinion that children are safer in the rear seat of a large sedan than the third row seat in an Ody or DC van.
Any comments?
Ahhh, but I also own a GM (Cheby pick-up). GM - mark of excellence!!
Minivans have rear crush zones, too. Unfortunately, they are much shorter than in sedans, especially in short wheelbase versions. The major risk is seatback failure in a severe crash from the rear. Fortunately, these types of crashes are pretty rare, around 5% of all fatal crashes. Seatback failure is more likely when a third row seat is loaded by one or more heavy adults. Injury is more likely when the adults are not seated in a position with a head restraint or lap+shoulder belt (i.e. the center in most minivans).
"I simply expressed the opinion that children are safer in the rear seat of a large sedan than the third row seat in an Ody or DC van."
Children in a properly used harnessed carseat or high back booster do not have nearly the same risk factors as an adult in the third row. They are light, and will not load the seat nearly as much. The shells of their carseats provide much better protection from intrusion. Harnessed carseats provide much better protection from ejection. My opinion is that the 3rd row of an extended wheelbase minivan only has a very slight disadvantage compared to a sedan for young children.
Side impacts are more common and tend to be more severe than rear impacts. There is little crush space in any vehicle. I'd give a very slight edge to children in the minivan, since they will be riding higher than in most sedans.
BTW- Good luck with your Impala. An excellent choice for a very safe vehicle.
Some time many years ago, the DC vans (may have been the only minivan at the time) had the rear door open in some accidents with un belted passengers being ejected. This was fixed and hasn't happened since. I had a 96 DC van that did not have a shoulder belt in the center of the rear seat. I do not know about current DC vans, although I have rented newer DC vans, I did not really check out the rear seat.
Interesting, in the offset collision tests, the drivers lower leg and ankle were considered "at risk" in the Impala. Not so of the 5 star Odyssey.
I did not mean to be condescending,
I have a friend who really discrinates against an Odyssey owner, with whom I am aquanted. It is my friends's attitude that needs an adjustment. He has no sense of humor. The Odyssey owner does.
BTW when I was young, my parents had a station wagon with a rear facing rear seat. We used to fight over who got to sit there, the farthest from our parents. Talk about dangerous.
I know. That's not only why I said 'most' minivans, but also one reason I have an Odyssey...
"I could make a strong argument for selectable turning off of the front passenger air bag. In some family situations, a wife may choose to ride in the back next to the youngest child. An older child could then ride in the front passenger seat in a booster chair,for example, with the air bag temporarily disabled."
Anyone with a genuine need to have a child 12 or under to be seated in front can fill out the required paperwork to get NHTSA approval for the installation of an airbag on/off switch. This makes it far more difficult for casual front seat use, which is always less safe for kids 12 and under.
"BTW when I was young, my parents had a station wagon with a rear facing rear seat. We used to fight over who got to sit there, the farthest from our parents. Talk about dangerous. "
Rear-facing is actually the safest way to travel. The entire seat cradles your back, neck and head in frontal crashes which are most common and most severe. With adequate seat strength, we'd all be much safer rear-facing. This is also why we like to have infants and toddlers remain in rear-facing carseats as long as possible. Each "graduation" to a front-facing harnessed seat and then to a booster is a reduction in overall safety.
Some Volvo wagons still have rear-facing seats, and I think the Taurus/Sable may also. Current designs are limited to children in certain age and weight ranges. Granted, current designs may be much better than the ones from the 70s... This is an older link, but is somewhat relevant:
http://au.geocities.com/ozbrick850/crash-rear.html
Also:
http://www.car-safety.org/rearface.html
"Interesting, in the offset collision tests, the drivers lower leg and ankle were considered "at risk" in the Impala. "
Actually, in the Offset crash test the 2000-2003 Impala did receive the same overall "Good" rating from the IIHS as the Odyssey. An Impala owner might comment that the Impala recieved a higher subcategory rating for Structure/Safety Cage than did Odyssey. Regardless, based on all the NHTSA and IIHS results and the nice safety feature package, Impala is a safe overall choice for a sedan. Also see:
http://www.car-safety.org/family.html
It can be done, but niether NHTSA nor the OEMs make this process an easy one and it can cost more than a few dollors. I wish the option was standard in all vehicles.
Steve, Host
Or, in this day and age, watch for people trying to set their shoes on fire!!!!! :O
1. Overhead console with temperature, compass, trip computer, tire pressure monitor, vehicle info center.
2. Power tailgate. Very useful in bad weather.
3. Roof rack cross bars.
4. AM/FM cassette radio with 10 infinity speakers and an in-dash 4 disc changer.
5. 3-zone automatic temperature control.
6. Center console with holder for cell phone and recharger outlet.
7. Fog lights.
8. Heated folding rear view mirrors.
9. Split 3rd row seats that fold, tumble and remove easily. This allows removal of only one seat so can still place 3 child car seats in back and have additional luggage room.
10. Windshield wiper de-icer.
11. Adjustable cup holders in front and second row that securely hold smaller cups as well as large cups.
12. Better looks with hidden sliding door tracks and tailgate handle and better color options. (personal preference).
13. 8-way power passenger seat.
14. 7yr 70,000mi power train warranty.
The Odyssey EX-L does have more horsepower (240 hp @ 5500 rpm vs 215 hp @ 5000 for T&C) however the Chrysler has more torque (245 lb-ft at 4000 rpm vs 242 lb-ft at 4500 rpm for Honda). Difference in 0 to 60 time is probably not too great and the T&C is fast enough for my driving. Odyssey will probably get slightly better gas mileage (EPA 18 to 25 vs 18 to 24 for T&C) possibly due to the 5 speed transmission. In driving the two vans the Chrysler is much quieter and smoother running with very little wind or road noise and seems to handle better which was also the conclusion reached by the Edmunds testers in their 2001 minivan tests. The Odyssey magic 3rd seat is not much of an advantage to me as I seldom remove the seats. Have owned 2 other Chrysler minivans and in over 140,000 miles of driving in an 8 year period have only removed the 3rd row seats about 4 times and both 2nd and 3rd row seats about twice. The new T&C makes seat removal very easy since the 3rd row split seats roll out and only weigh about 55 lbs and the 2nd row captain seats roll out on the same tracks. With the seats out the T&C has a larger cargo capacity (167.9 cu ft versus 146.1 cu ft for the Odyssey). Initially tempted to buy the Odyssey because of the perceived better reliability but after looking at the April 2002 Consumer Reports Reliability data for 99, 00 and 01 model years the reliability of the 2 vans is about the same with the T&C being slightly better. In addition there are reported transmission problems in the Odyssey. I have owned a 95 Grand Voyager LE that had 87,000 miles when sold to my brother and currently own a 98 T&C LX with 50,000 miles. No engine or transmission problems have been experienced on either van and both continue to run great. In conclusion I bought the T&C because of all the extras for less money, better looks, quieter ride, better warranty, and satisfaction with two previous Chrysler minivans. The Odyssey is a good van and might have considered it more except for the higher price and the arrogant attitude of Honda dealers who want you to put down a deposit and buy one at list price whenever they get it in usually without taking a test drive. As the supply of Odyssey's increases have noticed Honda dealers are becoming nicer and more willing to come down on price a little.
http://lemonlaw.com/lemonlist.html
I bought an Odyssey (2002 EX-L). I am very happy with it and didn't have a need for most of the items you listed above. Main reason I picked the Odyssey were comfort, performance/how it drove, safety, size, gas mileage, build quality, folding 3rd row seat, resale and probably a few other I can't think of right now. The T&C is a very nice vehicle. Personally I prefer the looks of the Honda.
I have had two Chryslers (Jeep GC) prior the the Odyssey. I think the overall build quality (materials used, rattles, panel gaps, etc) is far superior on the Honda. The Jeeps were leased and the last one started to develop transmission problems and a radiator leak with only 36,000 miles.
I would like Honda to provide a better warranty (at least 5yr/50K) but with waiting lists on a lot of their vehicles I don't see that happening anytime soon.
For me the Honda was the best choice. I think other good choices are the Mazda MPV (if you want something a little smaller) and the DC vans. I personally think the Ford and GM vans don't measure up. The Kia looks attractive from a price perspective but probably too soon to tell if it will prove to be a solid vehicle.
I take quite a lot of business trips and it gives me the opportunity to drive a good many rental vehicles. I have always taken a van when offered if they are out of my car.
I have rented mostly DC vans ( one reason their re-sale value may suffer is because of the car rental sales of used vans). I did get a Windstar once with 7 miles on it. Brand new on a Hertz lot.
I had a 96 Grand Caravan that I traded in for a 99 Odyssey. The Odyssey with 67 K miles on it still drives like new .I never had one problem with it.
The DC vans and Odyssey are quite a bit alike. It comes down to personal choice. The big advantage of DC vans is that you can select options. The only options on the Odyssey are dealer installed. The DC handle more like a sports car. the Odyssey more like a sedan. Although with the Odyssey's independent suspension. It holds the road better at high speed. The brand new Windstar had sloppy steering. Not on a par with the ODY or DC.
Just curious, thanks!
Honda sales have attitude problem
DC/Ford/GM sales have problem getting customers
Porsche/BMW/Toyota sales are very polite
trust me, all dealers are NOT created equal.
Well, Honda's sales should be smiling and be polite too if they are charging those markups but they give you attitude instead.