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I tried to buy my wife's VW from a local dealership, we took up a lot of the saleman's time with test driving, questions, etc. In the end a dealer 70 miles away offered us the car for $700-900 less. I asked the local dealer to match the price (and I would have accepted $200-300 higher), but they would not move and the salesman said if the other place will sell at that price we should buy it there...so we did. I felt bad about how that worked out, because the salesman seemed to be a nice guy and was not pushy or anything like that.
Then about a year later I had interest in looking at Mazda6. The same dealership and salesman happens to sell Mazdas. I told him, if he did not want to deal with me that would be fine, but he said no he would like to work with me and was confident that they would be able to match anyone else's price.
In Dec. I had an expiring, fully transferable, certificate for $250 off any Mazda, since the deal I wanted was not available I gave this to the salesman, so that he might use it to make an extra sale with some other customer. He was very appreciative of this and I think it did help him make a sale.
Now as it turned out he could not match the price I got elsewhere, from a dealer only about 10 miles away this time. But I did try very hard to buy the car from him. At one point I had agreed to pay $200 more for the car to buy from him...then it turned out we were talking about two different trim levels and the closest they could come was about $900. I think he understood that the other deal was too good for me to pass up. So I think I have put myself in his shoes and he has also put himself in mine.
and yes, i sold cars for two years. i like cars, and i liked helping people find the right cars for them. the only thing i couldnt take after that time was the negativity and downright rudeness i was treated with many times. i was not a pushy lying salesperson in the least, and would often go to bat against my manager for my customer. but according to most people here, nice salespeople who have their customer's interests at heart don't exist. instead, lets grind, right blufzbutt?
i don't understand how that story indicates you were in the salesperson's shoes though...
The best price for who? The customer or the dealership? If salespeople aren't trying to get the best(highest)possible price for their dealership, then they probably aren't doing their job properly.
BR put his finger on the real reason though - while I had never bought there before, I did personally know the owner.
Thinking back, though, I have had other stores do long distance trades without a deposit when I was a total stranger to them.
When last I was buying a car, My best friend 'knew' the owner, but that did not get me any special treatment. I bought from another dealership and the deal was way better than the first dealer. So knowing someone in the business does not always get you the 'insider deal'.
My wife had a friend overhear her saying that we were looking to buy a certian (new) car. This guy later approached her, and told her he had overheard her, and that he managed a dealership that sold the particular brand she was considering, and would check inventory, and call her back with a "special price". Before this, she knew he managed a car dealership, but she isn't into cars, so she had never asked specifically what brand he sold. A couple days later, he calls her, and offers her a "special price" of $100 over invoice, confirmed he had exactly what she wanted, and said if she accepted, he could have the paperwork waiting.
According to what I had seen during my research, his price really did appear to be $100 over invoice (including his doc fee). However, I decided to stop at the other dealership for this brand that was closer to our house to see what kind of offer I could get from them.
Dealer #2s first offer was $300 above invoice, and they had the exact car we wanted as well. I knew there were no rebates (or none that were advertised on the manufacturer's website, nor mentioned here on Edmunds), but there was a special finance rate being advertised. So just for the heck of it, I offered dealer #2 $800 below invoice hoping they would then counter at invoice price. Surprisingly, their immediate reply was they would meet me at $400 below invoice (including their doc fee), and would give me the special finance rate.
So, I ended up at $500 under the "special price" my wife's friend was offering, and was able to give our business to the "neighborhood" dealer.
tidester, host
anyways, enjoy your stay blufz1!
-thene
-thene
if a car is selling at MSRP because its hot, and no one is getting a discount on it, what good does knowing invoice and holdback do in this situation? the market dictates the price, not holdback. if you want to go buy the new 09 Nissan GTR - good luck telling the dealer "well your holdback is $xxx and invoice is $yyy so i want to pay invoice minus holdback!" they'll push you out the door and say "next!"
-thene
For something like a honda pilot (no longer a huge demand for these i don't think) I would try offering invoice. your best bet would be to do an OTD offer, indicating the price of the vehicle, plus sales tax, plus your state registration fees, etc. if there is a trade involved, offer the difference between your trade, the price of the vehicle, plus tax and tags. have a price in mind that is your max that you are willing to pay OTD, and start a few hundred below that. if at any time you feel uncomfortable with the proceedings, don't be afraid to walk and find another dealer! don't reward the ones who are trying shady stuff to get your business.
hopefully that helps some - it doesn't have to be a painful process, however some make it out to be. be polite, honest, and firm with your offer. if you've done your research, you can find a fair price for all and get the car you want, with little hassle.
oh, and don't concern yourself with what the dealer can possibly be making on you...that will just make you batty. instead, focus on what you think is a fair price for you to pay based on your research - work to get it, and be happy with your purchase. life is too short....
good luck!
-thene
try it if you don't believe me - let me know how it goes when you offer invoice minus holdback at your local nissan dealer for the GTR!
-thene
Be aware of the watering down of the arguments on this board. Your good common sense will win the day.
By the way, more than one sales manager has been asked to leave the dealership for blowing out customers too.
Keep trying Buyers... research rules, knowledge is *power* and sales people are not your new found friends.
you keep on having that confrontational attitude. it will get you far!
-thene :sick:
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That's bad consumer advice IMO. The buyer should concern themselves with getting the right car and paying as little as possible. The high demand vehicle you were speaking of is a rare occurance. The majority of car buys one will be looking at are: invoice, minus holdback, minus incentives... as a starting point.
focus on what you think is a fair price
fair? This means paying more to the dealership. Bad move. See first notation.
Perhaps, but that does not mean that the best way to go about negotiating is to say "I know invoice minus holdback minus incentives equals X, therefore you should sell me the car for X". Instead, it might be better to just ask if they will sell the car for X, or say "if you will sell it for X, I will it buy today".
im not saying to blindly go in and pick a car and buy it and not care about anything. I just think people are TOO preoccupied with whether the dealer is making a buck off of them or not. all the information is out there, offer what you feel comfortable with, based on the research you've done. why is everyone so obsessed with what the dealer made on you?
anyways, i know i won't change the mind of some of you hard line negotiators, and thats fine. to each their own. some people are so blindly driven by getting the absolute bottom line price that they make this the most miserable shopping experience. if you've done your research, you can determine a fair price based on that, and go in and make your offer. I used the GTR as an extreme example, however say the new G35 is going for 1000 off MSRP market value...who in their right mind is going to go in there and expect a dealer to sell it to them for invoice less holdback. its not logical.
like i said, im not gonna change anyone's mind, so im not gonna let it stress me out. you are free to negotiate as you please, as am i. my advice may not be something you'd ever use, because you are more aggressive in your negotiating skills - but some don't feel the need to get that crazy. everyone does it different, and everyone will offer their own advice. the person receiving the advice can do what they will with it...
whew - that was long winded! i still like you jip - so dont let our disagreements on how to buy cars get in the way of that!
-thene
I guess I come off as an aggressive negotiator, but maybe not so much in reality. I make what I think an acceptable offer on the low end, I let dealership keep holdback, I'll let the dealership bump me once... maybe twice. Then if they can't meet my price I get up to walk. Works for me. But, I agree to do what you are comfortable with. Many many years ago, I tried to B.S my way into a concert posing as a stage hand, while it worked for the big B.S-er friend I was with... I pretty much got laughed at.
i still like you jip
anyways, in the end, you always have to remember if anything ever makes you feel uncomfortable about a deal you are working on - just walk. first thing i learned in sales is that the customer truly has all the power, because they can just walk away at any time. most consumers don't seem to realize that though, and get themselves caught up in the game with the less than kosher dealers...
-thene
jipster- you're right too, I'm buying a car, I want to buy it for the least amount possible. Some people find that shocking, excellent post.
thenebean's gotta point too, costs don't really matter to buyers, but do sellers ever say "gee, you know what guys, we've sold the last 10 of these at an average gross profit of 375 dollars. lets give one away to Mrs. Jones for $375 over, go tell her the good news, we don't want her $2750 deal."
Yep, that's all you have to do, whether you do it in person or over the internet.
See, buying a car is no big deal.
in the end, a dealership is there to make money, just like every other business. other lines of business use less than savory tactics to do what they need to do, but it is more widely publicized in car sales than anything else.
if you know your stuff, are polite, honest and firm, you'll do fine. at least that's my motto!
-thene
i guess in the end the "shopping around" part can be included in the "research" part. I never really felt it to be an issue to send emails to get an idea of pricing from various dealers - especially if you know exactly what you want. it doesn't take an internet manager long to respond (i know, i was one) and it won't hurt them much because they haven't spent a whole lot of time with you. however, as courtesy, if there is one that is very straightfoward, honest and open, and you get a good vibe from them - id at least give them the first shot of earning your business.
you can tell a lot about a dealer just by how they respond to emails. lots of spelling errors and incorrect grammar? no thanks! emails from a dealer should be professional - not haphazard like i type my posts here (no capitalization, etc...its just a message board!)
anyways, find a dealer that gives you a good price - does it honestly (spells out fees, etc) and gives you the best vibe. give them the first shot - and if things go awry, don't be afraid to walk.
-thene
This is, absolutely, the nut of what we talk about here (& on several other boards). Do your research (high demand?, invoice?, license & tax?, all the rest) & get on with life. The dealer will either meet your out-the-door price, or they won't. This Q & A should take about 5 minutes, or you can just hit the street.
Move on to the next one. Once you've cycled through all the dealers you have available, you may need to consider raising your offer. You're very unlikely to get to that point, based on my (limited) experience.
Have fun during the purchase process. Enjoy your new car.
If your research is really (really) detailed & absolutely correct (nearly impossible, given the mfg-to-dealer stuff that's rarely public, even on the net), you could show your worksheet to whomever you're dealing with, allowing some percentage of profit. Or not -- he who cares least always wins the negotiation. Walk away and go on to the next guy with exactly the same offer.
IMNHO, playing one off against the other is not the way to go. Buy, instantly, from the first one that meets your price.
YMMV.
Hmmm, where have I heard that before?
I totally agree with the previous poster, well said. I don't get mad, I get a chuckle when a sales guy uses old school techniques, "I need to feed my family".....
-thene
One thing is to be nice and don't burn bridges. Know what you will pay before you ask for there best price. It they match it, take it. Don't try to beat it by pitting one dealer against another. A word to the wise...