The best power train for towing?
I'm about ready to start shopping for a new tow vehicle for my 3500 lb boat and trailer. I live in Colorado and want all the tow power I can purchase for these big hills we have here.
First thing.........Don't want no diesel. I can't stand all that clanking noise and all that stink they make. Last year I test drove the Dodge V-10, the Ford V-10 and the Chevy 8.1L V-8. I'm really not partial to any mfgr. but, after the test drives I discovered the 8.1L would blow the doors off the Dodge or Ford V-10. I know a 3500 lb boat is not alot to tow but I want over kill with my tow vehicle. You wouldn't believe the loss of power you feel when you're towing at 10000-12000 feet.
Would appreciate all input and opinions.
First thing.........Don't want no diesel. I can't stand all that clanking noise and all that stink they make. Last year I test drove the Dodge V-10, the Ford V-10 and the Chevy 8.1L V-8. I'm really not partial to any mfgr. but, after the test drives I discovered the 8.1L would blow the doors off the Dodge or Ford V-10. I know a 3500 lb boat is not alot to tow but I want over kill with my tow vehicle. You wouldn't believe the loss of power you feel when you're towing at 10000-12000 feet.
Would appreciate all input and opinions.
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do all the research you want, but when you actually talk to people that use these trucks, they will tell you that nothing compares to these trucks. not even the 8.1. not to mention that the super duty trucks look 100 times better than any other hd truck made today. the new gm trucks are considered wimpy by many people that tow heavy horse trailers or anything heavy. like someone said in the super-duty vs hd silverado thread, go to a horse show and see how many gm trucks you see compared to ford trucks. 'nuff said. they know what tows. but with only 3500 lbs, a super-duty with just a 5.4 would suffice your needs just fine. of course, there's nothing like the sound of that cool V10. its hard to beat. for absurd needs, nothing beats the power-stroke. its in a class by itself. nothing can beat it, and everyone knows this. later
Anyway, mrb11, I would go with either a 3/4 ton ford or chevy since you seem OK with a little overkill. I'm partial to Ford and the Superduties but the 6L and 8.1L big block on the Silverado HD's are awesome. not a bad choice either way.
Were the gears close on your test drive? I know my 4.30's and V10 will burn 33's off with little problem.
I think both trucks are good and both were on my list until a $2000 commericial rebate and near invoice deal put the Super Duty around 5K cheaper for me.
BTW, I feel the same way about diesels but have heard the Duramax is the closest to a gasser in quietness and response. Quad will give you an honest opinion on that.
kip
Of course, far be it from me to talk a man out of buying too much truck if that's what he wants...!!
Anyone who doesn't understand this, feel free to email me at pf_flyer@edmunds.com and I'll explain it further.
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kip
BTW I get 11.5 towing the ski boat and 9.5 towing the big one.
My F250 V10 with 3.73 axle pulled Isenhower pass west of Denver at 30 to 40mph with a 8000lb load and the altitude didn't help. But how fast do you want to go and how many times are you going up that high. 3500 lb load I wouldn't worry about anything bigger than and F150, chevy half ton or Dodge half ton. But remember this if you get a big block you can always go up in pulling weight without buying a new truck.
Frankk
My test drive of the Dodge V-10, Ford V-10 and Chevy 8.1L V-8 consisted of a start at 5280' here in Denver and going over the continental divide at 11,100 feet. The Dodge was not very impressive. The Ford was better but I didn't think it ran as strong as my 1998 454. The 8.1L 496 ci was by far the most powerful engine. I wished I could of towed my boat during the test drives. The dealers would not allow me to. Anyway I want all the (stock) towing power I can get. If them diesels didn't sound like rattle traps and made such a stench I might consider one.
Might someone know of some independent performance comparisons made on these 3 big blocks?
The Ford won ALL tests empty (this is why I question the gear ratios on your test drive)and the 8.1 won when hooked up to 7500 pounds up a grade. So I guess to answer your question the 8.1 would/is the strongest gasser by 35 Hp and 25 pounds of torque. But empty the tests have shown and I've felt very little difference. Towing my 5500 pound boat with my V10 SD has been effortless and I bet 120 degrees @ 2000 feet is pretty close to some of your high elevations.
Bottom line ,if you want a comfortable tow vehicle with best in class power and don't mind an engine that knocks and uses oil(1 qt per 1000 mi)get the GM.If you want a dependable truck that feels like a truck and has MORE THAN ENOUGH power and close to v8 fuel economy,BUY THE FORD!People tow with fords because there built to work.I love my GMC but GOSH DARN IT they need to work on the quality.
kip
From what I can see the Ford more then held its own performance wise. It did need to down shift more but I'm thinking the 5 speed Allison has a lot to with that.
GM was less truck like...advantage???
Guess which vehicle was the only one to use oil???
"GM was less truck like...advantage?"
To fat old guys like me who want a soft ride with the ability to tow 5 tons or carry one...YOU BET!
kip
BTW in my expeience the Allison promises more than it delivers.
kip
Where are you at and where do you tow?? I know I'm only towing a 3500 lb boat but I'm towing up long steep grades at 10000'-12000' elevation. Towing on the flat lands is a whole different ball game. I still consider those 4000'-6000' bumps east of the Mississippi flat lands. You cannot compare a long steep grade at low elevation to the same grade at 10,000 feet. Electronic ignition or no electronic ignition......the high elevation saps the power out of your engine. At 10,000 feet there is 1/3 less oxygen. You gents that say I should be able to tow my light 3500 boat with a V-6 or a tiny V-8 have not had much experience or have since forgotten what towing is like at high elevation. There are only a few states that have a 10,000 foot mountain yet alone a paved road at 10000 feet.
I've posted the source of tests you wanted, asked you the gear ratios of the trucks you tested, gave you a comparable oxygen depriving scenario....The majority on here have said get the Super Duty.
Is it that you just haven't heard what you want yet????
OK, buy the GM. You'll be much happier.
Since the only turbocharged truck engines happen to be diesels (which you don't want), I would suggest a Tacoma with a supercharger. It would have more than enough power, be less effected by altitude, and the supercharger would be covered by the full factory powertrain warranty.
I don't know if you have been over some of those passes in Colorado in the summer, but it is more like 10-12,000' at 100 degrees. It may be high, but is can get hot up there. 120 degrees at even 4-5000' doesn't come close.
MRB11
Everyone seems to agree that any of the trucks you are looking at will be overkill. And that lesser trucks would probably get the job done. So why don't you look at the dealers and buy from the dealer that will give you the best service after the sale? Or maybe buy the truck that has the color you like best? You've driven the trucks and you are in the best position to decide which one best fits your needs, we are not.
Mike L
Are you saying there is 1/3 less oxygen at a 2000' elevation when it's 120 degrees? When and how often do you tow when it's 120 degrees?? The Ford I test drove had 4:30's and the Chevy had 4:10's. I don't know what the Dodge had. The Popular Mechanics test results that you provided agree with what I said after my test drives. The non towing chevy is quicker.
The Chevy was a second quicker from 0-30 and 3 seconds quicker at passing from
40 mph to 70mph. The most impressive towing result was that the Chevy was almost 2 seconds quicker than the Ford while towing the 10000 pound trailer and passing from
40-70 mph. The quicker times that the Ford posted while towing from 0-30 mph and from
0-60 mph don't really mean too much at least to me. Who drag races while towing towing a trailer? You guys haven't told me where your from and where you tow and what kind of experience you've had towing in some real mountains.
It's sooooo obvious you want the 8.1. You're skewing the results to fit your needs. The Ford won its share of pulls that some people may think are more important(1/4 mile times while pulling favored the Ford which translates to merging)What's obvious to me during the passing tests is the Allison is able to find the right gear better than the ford tranny. Starting from a dead stop I see no huge advantage either way.
The fact that TRUCK TREND has the FORD WINNING all the empty tests is what leads me to ask what "blowing the doors off" means to you.
My one experience with adjusted altitudes is at the race track on a 105 degree evening and whatever humidity, the adjusted track altitude was near 7000 feet if I recall correctly.
Ford / GM
0-30 3.10/ 3.16
0-60 9.69 / 9.96
1/4 17.36 17.43
towing up-ramp Ford; 31.4 GM 28.50
Down -ramp 19.9 19.2
I have extensive towing experience with a Tacoma.4000 lb at sea level with the 3.4 and bought the 8.1 GMC to tow the same boat for the same "overkill" reason.Bama's Taco idea would work but it don't come close to overkill.I hated towing with the toy.At freeway speeds it was scarey and a lot of work.
mrb I have the truck you seem to want.It's powerfull,very comfortable and a P.O.S. I have a pending lemon law buy back claim with BBB.The transmission was REPLACED TWICE before it hit 10k mi.The engine knocks for almost a minute when you start it,and it uses a quart of oil per 1200 mi.The stitching started coming loose on the leather bucket seat and the passenger side window motor has been replaced.
If GM can get this truck right it would be great,but I'm not confident that they will.
Buy what you want but be prepared to fight.
kip
kip
kip
BTW if you don't hear from me again then I guess I crossed the line again.
As far as being overkill for towing it is pretty hard to have to much truck. I have a 5000# river boat and towing it up here in Alaska it is necessary to have a larger V8. None of our roads are very high but they are all hills, there is very little flat land up here. I used to have a F-150 with the 4.6 and it would tow the boat but I couldnt use OD, in the winter I would tow 2 snowmachines on a trailer with a wieght of about 2000# and I would get the same gas mileage as my friends V-10 with a camper and 2 sleds. I now have a Dodge Ram with the 360 and I get 12 mpg towing the boat (I was lucky to get 10 with the Ford) and I can pull some hills in OD. Also with the Dodge I get the same gas mileage empty as the Ford, about 17-18 mpg.
From personal experience I'd say 2-3% per thousand. This is based on what my car ran at the track @7000' adjusted and what I thought it should have run.
We are talking about towing 3500lb at 10,000 ft. A normally aspirated engine will be down 34% in power at 10,000 ft. Any turbo or supercharged vehicle will run circles around a normally aspirated vehicle. Turbodiesels are a good choice but the poster said he did not want a diesel. The V10 Mod brags about would be gasping for air.
Supercharging is a viable option. You can supercharge a Chev or Ford, but then you wimpy warranties just went to 0. Toyota still has a 5yr , 60000 mile warranty on their factory designed and approved TRD supercharged vehicles.
The V6 Tacoma or Tundra with a supercharger would be good rigs for towing at 10,000 ft.
The Tundra will be available with a supercharged V8 this summer with 340hp and 450ft lb of torque. I think that this would be plenty adequate for towning the 3500lb the original poster was talking about.
The supercharged Tundra might be an option but when I last looked at their suspension and driveline it too looked rather whimpy. I think I saw only 2 leaf springs and the rear diff. housing didn't look much larger than a cantalope. Do the insurance companies give you a spanking for owning a supercharged vehicle?
bama: get the new toyota, it taosts the best!!!
poster: what's the best weed trimmer?
bama: If you put a supercharger on the new toyota nothing can trim weeds better.
poster: Who offers the best day care for my 2 small children?
bama: Why toyota of course!!!
Classic quote from bams;
"Turbodiesels are a good choice but the poster said he did not want a diesel. The V10 Mod brags about would be gasping for air."
Gee, bams, the poster never mentioned toys either.
So.......at 10,000' you lose approx. 1/3 of your power. WOW!! No wonder people here in Colorado towing these big fifth wheels and horse trailers are crawling up these tall mountain passes. We have a paved road here (the highest in N. America) that takes you over 14,000 feet. Several times I've seen older vehicles on the side of the road that won't even start because of the elevation. I even have a rough time getting my Zippo to light. I live at 5400'. I bet my 454 would feel quite peppy at sea level.
The irony is when the troll makes a statement of how the poster doesn't want a diesel...... Can't seem to find when toy is mentioned either.
You'd be very unhappy with a tundra. The rotors will warp with no load much less trying to slow down 3500 pounds on a down grade. They also have a propensity for engine knock.
The blown taco would actually outperform much larger vehicles at altitude. How can I say this?
Take one Chev 8.1L. Raise it to 10,000 ft. You have approximately 224HP.
Take one Toyota Tacoma. Put on a supercharger. You have approximately 190HP at 10,000 ft.
Now take the Chev weight - 6000lb. plus the load 3500lb and you have 9500lb. The power to weight ratio is 42.5LB per HP.
Take the Tacoma, put on a 3500lb. load and you have 7500lb. The power to weight ratio is 40lb/HP
The Tacoma tail lights will get dimmer going away in the distance.
Now, if anyone can dispute any of these numbers, shouldn't this be what we are talking about?