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I always look at similar models from the luxury brand versus mainstream brand. Sometimes, depending on inventory or market trends you can actually buy the luxury brand for almost the same price. Case in point was when my wife wanted a SUV and she had decided on a Pathfinder. I knew the QX4 was virtually the same thing but much nicer outfitted and was going away. We made a killer deal on the QX4 that was actually less than we could have bought the Pathfinder for.
I'm sure there are plenty of people that look at loaded Camrys versus ES, or Accord vs. TSX or even TL, or Fusion vs MKZ. Sometimes you can move up to the luxury division for very little money and have a better warranty, dealer experience, etc. Obviously, this won't always work but it's worth the effort to look. Ergo.....cross shopping.
If I was looking at Lincoln or even the new Jx Infiniti I def would look at the ford and the pathfinder, why not ?
Well lets get the facts correct, they weren't neighbors, they were friends. They are the typical US buyer, they are not car enthuses. They do not understand the differences between a pathfinder and the now defunct QX4. What I think is interesting is, how you and sweeny try and use YOUR car buying experience and say that is the norm for car buyers.
Why do car magazines, only test Accords, Camry's, Altima, Malibus, Focus's and not add TSX, MKZ, ES350?
You answered ". Basically the difference between Honda and Acura is that Acura is the upscale division or builder of luxury cars and Honda is builder of economy cars. Having the middle class buyer isn't looking at the Accord and TXS."
Why would honda offer a touring edition of that same accord that starts at 33400 buxs? Does that sound like economy? It's more then the tsx- :surprise:
You and "backwards hat" guy (btw hes been mia)should read a magazine post 1995- new world.
I don't think being an "auto enthusiustt" puts anyone in a special category. Even people that don't live cars have brains and can recognise value.
I never even insinuated that most people crossshop those kinds of cars but I know that a lot do. It's silly to assume that just because a couple of friends don't do something that eveyone else in the country doesn't either. If you would say something like "IMO I don't think most people shop for cars that way based on a few of friends buying habits". Then it's clear you really don't know but you have an opnion. But, you rarely do that. You just make definitive statements based on huge assumptions.
I would agree that most people probably don't crossshop that way and that is one of the reasons that the car mags test cars that are recognised to be in the same category. However, I think another big reason is that car companies don't want their cars compared to economy cars or luxury cars respectively so that is probably one of the conditions that the car companies have when loaning a car for a comparo. In fact, I just read somewhere where Lincoln wouldn't provide a MKZ because the mag wanted to use it in a comparo with some mainstream cars. I read a lot of car sites so I just can't remember where I read that recently.
If you frequented a lot of the other Edmunds forums or owners forums of mainstream cars you would realize that a lot of people are comparing a Camry to ES etc.
I'll jump in here. It's kind of silly to pretend that every buyer is the same. I know when I was looking at more compact premium sedans a number of years back, I looked at the Passat and the Audi A4. I also looked at the Accord, TL, and TSX a number of years ago. Some people who are very badge conscious won't do that. Others will not care about a badge as long as a vehicle has what they want. And what they want has a lot of variation, too.
Some people look at ELLPS for the "L"; some look more for the "P". Depending upon which factors are important, cross-shopping with the more "plebian" brands may or may not occur.
What I suspect is true is that there are *fewer* people who will cross shop. But not nobody. And any of us who pretends we know that percentage is just guessing.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
For years I was a brand shopper -- the brand I chose was Audi. Even during the "Audi years," I did, from time to time, shop BMW's. Even when I could see a difference in the cars, I would always factor in a characteristice "for the money." For some time Audi A4's or A6's offered more content for the same money or less money for similar content (compared to the BMW 3 or 5 series).
Note: all but two of my cars for a period of time were obtained via a 36 month lease.
When looking at cars based on lease payments, I have found -- even within the past 3 years -- that Premium cars generally have lower lease payments than their down-scale cousins and non-cousins.
My assumptions why this is so have to do with residual values (which, as we know when they are high tend to reduce monthly payments) and manufacturer's "support" (subventing.)
Additionally, there are times that the Premium cars are more sharply discounted off MSRP, which also tends to lower lease payments.
If, for instance, a Honda was shopped against a "similar" Acura (in the eye of the beholder and for purposes of this example) the Acura typically cost "about the same" as the Honda -- and at times (during the calendar end of year sales season) it is possible to lease an Acura for less than a Honda.
Another example, Audi vs VW -- here you'd think VW would not want Audi subvented leases to cannibalize VW sales, but, it happened/happens.
Were the shopper to cross shop a VW (as an example only) Passat and compare it (based on lease payments) to an A4, it is possible (or has been in recent times) the A4 will cost about the same as the VW and the Audi will be quattro, have an 8-speed auto and be otherwise equally or better contented than the VW.
I am not saying these cars are comparable, based on Car & Driver, Road & Track or Automobile magazine comparison tests. Typically the Passat will be compared to a Camry or maybe an Avalon or Maxima. Yet, if you wandered into a giant "auto mall" it is not beyond the pale to imagine someone standing in the Infiniti lot which is adjacent to the Nissan lot to wander over the parking lot to look at the "fill in the blank" and make a comparison of the cars without regard (at that moment) for "price" or monthly payment.
I am driving a 2012 Acura TL SH-AWD Advance with two accessories on it, which pushed to pre-disounted MSRP over $47K (or maybe over $48K). Since I got a 13% discount off of MSRP on the car it was actually $100 less per month and 6 months term less than a slightly less expensive Audi A4, which is what I thought I would end up with.
Normally, I would never have cross shopped the A4 with the TL (even though it is possible the car magazines might have run comparison.)
But for 6-months and $100/mo more for the Audi. :surprise: The TL seemed a bargain.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
What is your take on what magazine auto testers have been saying about current gen Acura TL steering. They say it has problem on-center. I had a 2012 TL loaner last year, drove it on suburban, interstate, country roads and the steering feel was weird. Not like my older 2004 TL which is very precise, no on-center problems.
Change it when it hits 50% or 6000 miles. Other than that, enjoy the ride. It's a fantastic alternative to a BMW 5 series.
Sarah, GM Customer Service
Interesting, I wonder if Toyota knows this, if so Toyota could increase the base price of the Camry to be more inline with the ES. Not too sure why the typical Camry LE buyer would be looking at a base Lexus ES, since there is roughly 20K difference in the price of the cars...
They may say to themseves..."gee, for $3 grand I can have a Lexus with a longer warranty and nicer dealership experience and a little more luxury feel." That could be tempting if they can swing it. Oh, but they'll have to buy a $100 Garmin though.
Yes, there are class action lawsuits pending as well. GM's solution was to reprogram the oil life sensor to be more sensitive, but it really doesn't solve the issue which is that synthetic oil is only good for twice what conventional oil is.
metal3883, "Cadillac CTS Engine Problems" #604, 11 Dec 2012 5:17 pm
32 pages long and growing. Oil is so darn cheap versus a new engine that it pays to be cautious especially when it appears that we're being used as Guinea Pigs by GM for using synthetic oils in the new engines.
Like the use of 20k - nice but a fail.
Anyone seen "hat backwards" guy, could be on a road trip in GFs S.
I think he is on these boards everyday.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
Wow, what a revelation! A loaded luxury car is more than a loaded non-luxury car. Who would have thought? Gee, I bet a loaded Panamerica is more than a loaded Passat too. Isn't that something.
I would rather admit I'm wrong than clutch at straws to try to make myself look better. Camry LE because it's the biggest seller? :confuse: Wasn't even remotely close to what we were talking about. We were talking about cross shopping the loaded mainstream against base luxury because of the closeness in price. A Camry LE is not a loaded Camry.
Bringing in the Avalon actually makes my point even more. A loaded Avalon Limited is almost $4000 more than a base ES. The ES is now based on the Avalon(not the Camry) so it's the same size, drivetrain etc. That is why I said that a lot of people that were looking at loaded mainstream vehicles may crossshop the lower end of the luxury makes. Because they are so close in price and capability.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
I agree, but you need to remember that losing face is important in Asia, but even more important on these forums.
I may have (I do have) some issues with the Acura -- but many/most of them are of a cosmetic nature -- but, now that Acura bought new wheels for me (3 of the 19" wheels were bent so badly that they could not be road-force balanced), I have no issues with the steering. The wide and low profile tires that were on the Audi and on this Acura can be the source of some ride stiffness, but I have no issues that I can comment on that have anything to do with the electric power steering.
The TL SH-AWD Advance is very well equipped, smooth driving and riding, yet agile and nimble (due to the wheel/tire combo and the sport suspension).
It does seem to be not an unreasonable imitation of an Audi S4 when one factors in the S4's $11,000 premium when similarly contented -- if you can get past the controversial styling (yes, even the toned down 2012 still has too much "beak" for most folks.)
I will shop Acura (among others) for my next car when the lease is up on this one -- at this point, I would shop the upcoming TLX, the Infiniti Q50, the Audi A4, the BMW 3, the Cadillac ATS and CTS and probably the Volvo S60.
The Acura suffers from NOT providing its owner with an experience that is not crystal-clearly differentiated from the Honda upon which it is based.
Some people think that Acura's best feature is that it comes from the Honda Motors Corporation. Others, like me, wish it wasn't quite so obvious that it came from Honda's loins (so to speak.)
If you run it down to 0%, it's not time to change it. It's that your synthetic goo has turned into water in terms of protection capability. You should never let it get even remotely close to 0%.
As an engineer, I can tell you we work with factors of safety and other means to tell us that when the calculation shows an element is "over the limit" it does not mean "run and hide", it only means "do something to improve the situation". We NEVER design things to be on edge of destruction, whether it is a house, a bridge, or a machine. If we did, nobody would feel safe in them, as they would literally fall down somewhere, every day. Only things like spacecraft or similar "new frontier" items where risk calculation allows for safety factors to be cut to razor thin margins, would have "zero life left" mean "tell your wife you love her".
If you are telling the truth, CTS HAS oil issues - big ones.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
that the gauge usually will be telling you how much life/protection is left in it.
When the oil life percentage in my Explorer gets to 0%, Ford says to change the oil within 500 miles. That indicator has a level of safety built in.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
I've been monitoring the CTS engine issue board for many years, and thought at the beginning that the root of the situation was pampered moderately ignorant CTS drivers never manually checking their oil. Mostly that was true, but not always. Several people posted who seemed credible and checked their oil on a regular basis. At some point the engine started using a quart of oil every few hundred miles, and that was a disaster for the average "set it and forget it" driver who wouldn't know how to check or add oil to save their souls.
The 3.6 engine has serious issues, possibly related to the cam drive system, but in any event the symptom is sudden onset high oil consumption followed by engine failure. Too many people have outlined the same scenario for it to be made up and/or anecdotal isolated incidents.
Yuck. I'll take Jersey Mikes any day but light on the oil.
Do your Xenon lights make one straight path, or does the one on the right seem to be aimed lower?
I'm bringing my car in to have that checked out as well as a defective trunk latch. I'm coming up on my 1 year anniversary with my 328xi.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
I don't know. I only monitor the CTS board.
BTW, Other markets (like European) have different regulations (even aim, there are other differences, too). However, US-versions of European brands have US-market settings, obviously.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
2018 430i Gran Coupe
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Evidently, in the CTS's case, 0 life was really very close to 0% and there was no leeway. GM changed it to be twice as sensitive (2011) so it tells you it's time in about 6 months or 6000 miles, which gives you a fair amount of leeway. Note - anything less than about 25% protection is running into greatly increased wear with synthetic oils. If you are running an older (2011 or older, evidently) CTS, letting it drop below 50% oil life remaining is causing increased wear and problems.
I ran into this a few years ago when I was looking for a car for my parents. And back then the mechanics at the dealers were all saying to get it changed at 6 months/6K miles. (the manual says almost twice that interval) That they didn't do a recall is a whole other problem, but the mechanics certainly figured out what had happened with the oil life sensors several years ago.
So the engine isn't the issue. In fact, it's the best engine GM has ever built. It, not too surprisingly, wasn't really designed to run on synthetic goo which some marketing genius managed to pass off as "oil". GM kind of found this out the hard way, it seems.
NOTE - there is nothing that says that you can't run semi-synthetic in the car, either. In fact, the newer oil that they put in it at the dealership when you get it changed (on 2011+ models at least) is actually semi-synthetic. GM doesn't want to admit that their engines shouldn't be run on pure synthetic and are "suggesting" their new DEXOS standard oils.
Yes, it's buried way way in the fine print, but DEXOS is semi-syntietic oil under a new brand name/standard to try to confuse the issue, since they spent over a decade ruthlessly pounding into everyone's head that pure synthetic oils were better than conventional ones.(which is not true, obviously)
So the fix? Switch to semi-synthetic ASAP. Change oil every 6K miles/6 months. Ignore the computers and change the oil religiously at those intervals. Semi-synthetic costs about twice as much per change, but you change it half as often.
I have used 100% synthetic oil from the first change forward. I change the oil damn near the instant the 15% indicator comes on -- and, of course, I always use a new filter. I bring my oil into the dealer, since at the beginning I didn't know if they actually even had syn oil.
Are you saying that synthetic oil has a shorter (in miles or time) life span of "protection" but that semi-syn is better in that regard? I thought that one of the hallmarks of 100% synthetic was that it was able to hold more dirt and crud in suspension than non-synthetic oils (meaning, I assume) that you could use synthetic oil for longer intervals without engine damage or for shorter intervals for even better protection than non-synthetic oils.
I've not heard the argument to use semi-syn; it seems if half synthetic is good, that full synthetic would be better still. :confuse: