"Are you kidding?! Most of us are stuck in traffic every day. And what do you do when the snow falls? At what speed is your RWD traction envelope then? Less than the TL's for sure."
What does traffic have to do with the cars ability to perform? Or anything that is germane to this conversation? Or the way it drives? Either way I'd still rather be stuck in my 3-series than any other vehicle.
Yes it is. Not much but they open at 7:30 on weekends. I can usually get in and out of there by 9 and avoid the crowds altogether. Jays Peak is next week tho!
I dont own a RWD, but I drive G35 coupe 6MT almost every other day. How about you, it looks like you lucking some experience.
KD, Why don't you stop you ridiculous comments in regards to TL and Accord, it just does not make any sense. I told you many times, Accord to TL is like 325 to 330. Why did you get 330, you could have saved 20K and get 325?
pp...my comments make plenty of sense since there were a lot of threads devoted to VALUE. You can't have it both ways. Either value is in the equation or not.
People seem to say the TL is more than $7K less than the 330i and is better value. I point out that CR says the Accord is about $7K less then the TL and it's almost as good.
Why do you think this being ridiculous? Are we talking capabilities or value?
"I dont own a RWD, but I drive G35 coupe 6MT almost every other day. How about you, it looks like you lucking some experience."
Does this say lacking some experience or liking some exper....?? U is nect to I on my keyboard so I'll assume you mean like..
I drive a sedan and it get better every day. The coupe is great but too small for me to climb into at my age and size. There are few perceptible performance differences other than what is gleaned in the 1 inch drop the coupe gets. The car is fun to play with and make minor mods to that add HP to get it easily up to the 280-290 level the coupe is at.
I think it's ridiculous, because Accord is not Near Luxury Performance Sedan, and it have nothing to do with this discussion Now, why dont you answer my question? Why did you get 330, you could have saved 20K and get 325?
For the same reason people got the TL over the Hyundai. I wanted it, I could afford it. No more, no less. If that means I'm a poseur, so be it. The car still drives the same, whether a poseur is driving it or not.
You are a funny gay. Do you know that Honda and Hyundai are two different car companies? I thought 325 made by BMW, I did not know it's build by Hyundai:)
People seem to say the TL is more than $7K less than the 330i and is better value. I point out that CR says the Accord is about $7K less then the TL and it's almost as good.
Why do you think this being ridiculous? Are we talking capabilities or value?
What is the difference? Value should, by definition, take all aspects of the purchase into account, including capabilities. Weighing the capabilities and content against the cost equates the value.
So I say again, the TL is a better VALUE because it is closer in CAPABILITY to the 330 than the Accord is to the TL. In other words, the $7K price hike to get the TL over the Accord nets you MUCH greater results than the $7K price hike (although its even more than that!) to get the 330 over the TL. I let the numbers of the TL versus the 330 that all you Bimmer-owners/lovers speak for themselves. I don't have the time to sit here and set up a 3-way chart for ya.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
"My mistake, I ment lacking. Have you driven any FWD cars recently , for extended period of time? "
I have had 2 CRX's (si's) one civic hatchback circa ~ 1982 a 1993 acura integra 3 door and a 2002 Passat. Total FWD miles 250K or more all told and I beat the snot out of each car and took it to trade with so many problems they should be totalled since fixing costs were > value fixed. I mean beat hard.
PS they were fun but I'll never go back. Balance Balance Balance
"In other words, the $7K price hike to get the TL over the Accord nets you MUCH greater results than the $7K price hike (although its even more than that!) to get the 330 over the TL."
Actually, the $7K to get from the Accord to the TL doesn't get you $7K worth of benefit toward the Bimmer. In fact, in the TL it may get you marginally closer to handling on the Bimmer, but not $7K worth. But the fact the Bimmer has performance handling characteristics neither car can match. I don't have time to detail it for you, but I'm sure you know what I mean.
"What does traffic have to do with the cars ability to perform? Or anything that is germane to this conversation? Or the way it drives? Either way I'd still rather be stuck in my 3-series than any other vehicle."
My point is that in the real world RWD has its limitations. In cases of snow, FWD has the advantage. As for AWD SUVs, that's the biggest joke. You would not believe how many SUVs get towed out of snow banks and ditches in Toronto after a snow storm -- way too many. I've been driving FWDs in snow for 14 years and never, ever got stuck.
As for being stuck in traffic, if your car is not moving RWD offers no advantages. And, I rather be in a car with the world's best factory stereo system for any length of time.
You're back to the environment of the car, rather than the abilities of the car. A RWD with 4 snows will handle just as well as a FWD with snow. A RWD with all-seasons will be outhandled by a FWD.
kahuna - you're logic is the very reason, that most every driver in an urban area ought to be driving Hyundais. Yet it's not happening. BTW, from everything I've heard and read, unless the TL has dvd-audio the stereo is nothing special. (I don't know first hand) I'd rather be listening to an ML anyday. If I can't do that, I'd rather drive the Bimmer. Anyway since we're talking about unused capabilities, why don't you drive a Honda Accord and save yourself $7K, if you are sitting in traffic. You have unused capabilities, especially with the inbound Toronto traffic in the morning.$4K for a good aftermarket stereo along with a Honda could still save you money over a TL.
They owners are a joke. FWD is not as capable as AWD there can't be argument here can there be...? Perhaps the AWD owners should learn how to drive and recognize that AWD doesn't make for better stopping.
While FW is almost as good as all wheel it is not better.
And I see tons of SUV's that people in CO seem to put off road in snow banks and medians all the time - THEY ARE ALL 4 WHEEL DRIVE NOT AWD...huge difference. People dont go into 4wd when they should and leave it 2 wheels usually rear.
"BTW, from everything I've heard and read, unless the TL has dvd-audio the stereo is nothing special." This proves that you know very little about this car.
I've heard the stereo first hand and the DVD is great but for regular CD's - it's on par with the bose system from the G35. ITs good even really good but no better.
TL has a great interior - one of the best. But the car is not a top line sports sedan by virtue of the limitations that several editors and testers have all consistently harped it for. FWD. There is little else to know once these facts are revealed to RWD fans. Its on deaf ears.
but, honestly, i'm not trying to knock anyone's choice. I'm just trying to defend what I found to be a great car (referring to the TL). And if the only advantage that can be stated for buying the BMW over the TL is that extra .5 G of roadholding ability, that's just not going to pursuade me to fork over all that extra money. And, according to C&D, even the Accord coupe you are fond of mentioning is faster in the quarter mile than the 330 with performance pack.
But there is so much more to consider aside from numbers. The TL is quieter, quicker, better handling, more solid, better shifter, better clutch, better interior materials, etc. over the Accord. I can't say all that regarding the BMW.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
there is nothing wrong with you having and enjoying your RWD car for non-snow occasions and getting an AWD SUV for snowy occasions.
it's your money and it's your choice how to spend it.
as someone currently living in NYC and paying close to $400 a month in garage fees, i'd be paying nearly $5k a year in parking fees alone to be able to do what you're doing.
i frankly don't enjoy the advantages of RWD so much that i'll pay the extra in parking fees so i choose to go with FWD.
your categorical statement "There is little else to know once these facts are revealed to RWD fans. Its on deaf ears." is just plain wrong. people have needs, budgets, space limitations plus a desire to simplify one's life (something to be said for not having to worry about maintenance, insurance, registration, etc. for another car when you can only drive one at a time).
seems like a big waste to have 2 cars for yourself when you can get by with one, but i realize my personal minimalist philosophy of trying not to clutter your life with too many things is not for everyone.
BTW, if you live in Philly, have you tried Morimoto's restaurant? It's great. I highly recommend the top of the line omakase.
For us Subaru fans, smile time is coming really soon. Don't get me wrong I like the updated Acura TL, Infiniti G35 w/AWD. But if you have driven a Legacy you know the potential was there. A good car waiting for an engine. Well now we have the engine. I can't wait to see the new Legacy vs the rest of the near luxury sport sedans/wagons.
Are you looking for performance? Are you looking for luxury? Are you looking for value? What are you willing to pay? How important are other factors like reliability, crash test results, practicality, etc?
Think we can all agree that the 325i and 330i are highly related. And that the Accord V6 sedan and TL are highly related. (Heck, for that matter, the TSX is the European Accord.)
If all you worry about is a boring commute, save money and buy an inexpensive car or maybe a used car.
But if driving pleasure is your goal, then just any old car won't do.
And if you want the best, you are willing to pay for it, special order it, wait for it, etc.
Like I said before, too bad we can't break this board into 3 boards: RWD, FWD, and AWD. I can't imagine owning a high performance FWDer. To me, there is no such thing. Obviously, others disagree.
Looks like Subaru is finally serious about competing with the Germans and the other Japanese auto makers. Notice the new Legacy borrows a few styling cues from both the new and old Acura TL.
...let's see how many disagree with this logic, based on your criteria:
Performance? I'll give this one to the 3 Series Luxury? Acura TL takes this one Value? Hands down...TL Price? TL all the way Other factors like reliability, crash test results, practicality, etc? Let's just call this a tie, even though Acura is far more reliable
Performance - 3 series Styling - 3 series Value - Here is the rub, value is in the eyes of the beholder. So if your bent is uncompromised handling then 3 series, if your bent is a mix of decent handling and goodiers, then TL. Price - TL Cost to lease for 3 years- tie
This discussion is amazing. Doesn't it come down to which car YOU enjoy driving more? Period! Is steak better than lobster? Is Gone with the Wind better than The God Father? Have you ever heard the definition of a consultant? It's a guy who knows 300 different ways to make love... but doesn't personally know any women. (He just likes talking about it...) Sounds like most of the people here. Sorry.
Let our Canadian friends bash at each other and let's just sit and watch!
I found this thread entertaining. Some of you must be comedians. If not, you should be.
With the U.S. dollars in the dump, people wanting to buy German cars (BMW) may have to pony up more dole. The Japanese are our friends (and we should buy their cars) because they are the only ones buying the U.S. dollar to keep it afloat :-)
Performance - 3 series Styling - 3 series Value - Here is the rub, value is in the eyes of the beholder. So if your bent is uncompromised handling then 3 series, if your bent is a mix of decent handling and goodiers, then TL. Price - TL Cost to lease for 3 years- tie
Winner - tie. "
I think we all agree that performance is marginally better, or I should say handling, so I 'll give this to 330(just to make you happy)
Styling is in the eyes of the beholder , you like 330 better others dont, I like both equally(330 better exterior, TL better interior), so lit say it's a tie.
Value goes hands down to TL, I think most us will agree, I think you can't include handling, because you already got a point for performance.
I would also give TL a point for features, but I'm not gona because it's part of the value.
Price I think all agree TL gets the point.
Cost to lease will go to TL. Lease for a none nav TL about $420-$450 including tax and maybe another $1,500 for all fees, total - $17,700 plus oil change $400= $18,100. 330 (performance pakg) lease is close to $550-$600 including tax plus fees $1,500 = $23,100.
So I say TL is a winner.
As for me if I could have lease loaded 330 for the same money as TL, I would do it, but it is at least $100 more a month.
"I think we all agree that performance is marginally better, or I should say handling, so I 'll give this to 330(just to make you happy)"
No I meant performance.
Cost to lease...tie...you can get that down to about $500-520 making it about $19K or so. For a car that's 10 grand more paying a few dollars more isn't a big deal. BTW I'm paying just slightly more than $18K for mine. Just want to know that a fabulous deal, cause friend who has a 2003 TL is paying way more than that. Almost as much as my Bimmer.
Goodies - TL
Value - 3 series...cause it has everything I want and nothing I don't. If I thought the TL had more overall value, I would have gotten it. Value is the feeling for the priority of the intangibles and tangibles combined.
The analysis is flawed. You may have given the right answer to each question (or factor), but if you do not assign equal weight to each question (or factor), you have reached the wrong conclusion.
Case in point, KD may want to assign 50 points to performance (because he is a performance fanatic) and only 5 points to value (because he is loaded and doesn't mind spending more money). If you tally the score based on weighted answers, your conclusion could very well be flawed.
Unless you all agree to the amount of weight to be given to each question (or factor), and I can assure you that you will never agree, the entire exercise is futile :-)
I think we all agree that we are winners in choices that we maid.
KD, You got a grate deal, when I was shopping for a car, the best price I got for loaded 330 was $650, but that was a while ago. As for TL I got my S type for $450, when they just came out, could have shaved another $20-$30 off, but did not want wait.
See...this is a prime example of what I'm talking about when I say that some enthusiasts act like they're offering salvation, instead of discussing the (relative)merits of a car.
They never heard of words like objectivity, balanced, equitable, honest, sportsmanlike, statesmanlike, unbiased, unprejudiced, reasonable, impartial, rational, fair, open-minded, or sane, for that matter. They just try to beat you into submission with their "my car's great...but your car stinks" arguments.
pg48477... You wrote, "How you figure that IS has better styling, and goodies?"
Styling is inherently subjective. The CTS, TL and Maxima are all way too angularly styled for my taste. Trying to be overly modern. The 3 Series is tasteful but a bit bland. I think the IS300 is the best balance of tasteful and modern.
As for goodies, IS300 has a ton, including the most important of all: LSD! 3 Series can only be had with LSD in M3 version.
cybersol... CR ranks the G35 12th out of the 15 cars in their upscale sedan category. CR's full test of the G35 sedan was in the July 2003 issue. In that test it came out fourth behind the Lincoln LS6, Cadillac CTS, and Nissan Maxima 3.5 SE, but ahead of the Saab 9-3 Vector.
Notice the above time is the worst ever published for the sedan. I'd take my grounding wired G35 against a TL and feel pretty confident I'd tie or better 50% of the time. 6.8 is bad. The 5AT records 6.2 and the 6MT is approx 5.5-5.9. 45-65 tells all about the power of the these motors. Anyone care to put up those numbers comparing TL/3/IS...
Remember to take into account equipment on the tested car. The BMW 330i was NOT tested with its most valuable Sport Package. Don't believe the G35 had its either. So they ran on terrible tires.
Also, you have to take into account CR's methodology. Compare that to methodology of car magazines. Auto press usually uses whatever most aggressive method at launch.
And remember that CR does NOT get its cars from the manufacturers. It buys real cars off real dealers' lots. Is easy for manufacturers to give car magazines ringers!
The Ultimate Argument does not hold water. Performance figures do not indicate a 330i will be seeing the taillights of any car in this category. The cars the 330i will see the taillights of so will the TL and G35. Since I have no plans on racing you on the street and potentially hurting myself or other drivers, I will have to leave it to people who measure such things.
Even with CRs testing methodolody, G35 came in behind 330i. It's not about the 330i being faster, it's about the 330i being the more expensive, holding it's own against cars having bigger engines, with a 35 hp/torque advantage. And while the 330i may lose the quarter mile to a G35, it loses by .1 second to a car with a .5 liter bigger engine.
riez - I believe is correct, that car mags use a do-or-die method to get the absolute fastest time. You wouldn't necessarily want to do that to your car. CR probably uses a more conservative approach, where drivetrain parts do not get strewn all over the tarmac.
Not knocking either car, you can't dismiss the performance/handling aspect of the 3-series, while extolling the value aspect of either car.
chrisboth - show me one review where the G35 sedan 6MT has a 5.5 time to 60.
At work there is a nice G35 with 18" wheels, lowered some that looks awesome. Someone also bought the new TL which is very good looking also. I just went to the LA Auto show and saw the TL A-Spec, very impressive. You can battle these two all day long, and all you get is bloody there is no winner. They are both super nice Enthusiasts always talk about RWD as preference, but if you look at many of the touring racing formats you see that FWD does pretty well. Both the Acura RSX and Mazda 3 have been championship winners in the touring classes against BMW.
You G35, TL & IS300 worshipers are gonna be upset when the new 2005 Legacy finally hits the shores. Performance and handling will leave those behind. The Legacy has already bettered a RS6 at a track in Japan. I say it here now so you won't be disappointed when the mags say it later. The BMW 330 Perf., Audi S4 and Volvo S60R/V70R will get their lickings also. I can't comment on the interior until I see it in person, although it is gonna be steps ahead.
Comments
What does traffic have to do with the cars ability to perform? Or anything that is germane to this conversation? Or the way it drives? Either way I'd still rather be stuck in my 3-series than any other vehicle.
KD, Why don't you stop you ridiculous comments in regards to TL and Accord, it just does not make any sense. I told you many times, Accord to TL is like 325 to 330. Why did you get 330, you could have saved 20K and get 325?
People seem to say the TL is more than $7K less than the 330i and is better value. I point out that CR says the Accord is about $7K less then the TL and it's almost as good.
Why do you think this being ridiculous? Are we talking capabilities or value?
Does this say lacking some experience or liking some exper....?? U is nect to I on my keyboard so I'll assume you mean like..
I drive a sedan and it get better every day. The coupe is great but too small for me to climb into at my age and size. There are few perceptible performance differences other than what is gleaned in the 1 inch drop the coupe gets. The car is fun to play with and make minor mods to that add HP to get it easily up to the 280-290 level the coupe is at.
I thought 325 made by BMW, I did not know it's build by Hyundai:)
Why do you think this being ridiculous? Are we talking capabilities or value?
What is the difference? Value should, by definition, take all aspects of the purchase into account, including capabilities. Weighing the capabilities and content against the cost equates the value.
So I say again, the TL is a better VALUE because it is closer in CAPABILITY to the 330 than the Accord is to the TL. In other words, the $7K price hike to get the TL over the Accord nets you MUCH greater results than the $7K price hike (although its even more than that!) to get the 330 over the TL. I let the numbers of the TL versus the 330 that all you Bimmer-owners/lovers speak for themselves. I don't have the time to sit here and set up a 3-way chart for ya.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I have had 2 CRX's (si's) one civic hatchback circa ~ 1982 a 1993 acura integra 3 door and a 2002 Passat. Total FWD miles 250K or more all told and I beat the snot out of each car and took it to trade with so many problems they should be totalled since fixing costs were > value fixed. I mean beat hard.
PS they were fun but I'll never go back. Balance Balance Balance
Actually, the $7K to get from the Accord to the TL doesn't get you $7K worth of benefit toward the Bimmer. In fact, in the TL it may get you marginally closer to handling on the Bimmer, but not $7K worth. But the fact the Bimmer has performance handling characteristics neither car can match. I don't have time to detail it for you, but I'm sure you know what I mean.
My point is that in the real world RWD has its limitations. In cases of snow, FWD has the advantage. As for AWD SUVs, that's the biggest joke. You would not believe how many SUVs get towed out of snow banks and ditches in Toronto after a snow storm -- way too many. I've been driving FWDs in snow for 14 years and never, ever got stuck.
As for being stuck in traffic, if your car is not moving RWD offers no advantages. And, I rather be in a car with the world's best factory stereo system for any length of time.
kahuna - you're logic is the very reason, that most every driver in an urban area ought to be driving Hyundais. Yet it's not happening. BTW, from everything I've heard and read, unless the TL has dvd-audio the stereo is nothing special. (I don't know first hand) I'd rather be listening to an ML anyday. If I can't do that, I'd rather drive the Bimmer.
They owners are a joke. FWD is not as capable as AWD there can't be argument here can there be...? Perhaps the AWD owners should learn how to drive and recognize that AWD doesn't make for better stopping.
While FW is almost as good as all wheel it is not better.
And I see tons of SUV's that people in CO seem to put off road in snow banks and medians all the time - THEY ARE ALL 4 WHEEL DRIVE NOT AWD...huge difference. People dont go into 4wd when they should and leave it 2 wheels usually rear.
TL has a great interior - one of the best. But the car is not a top line sports sedan by virtue of the limitations that several editors and testers have all consistently harped it for. FWD. There is little else to know once these facts are revealed to RWD fans. Its on deaf ears.
but, honestly, i'm not trying to knock anyone's choice. I'm just trying to defend what I found to be a great car (referring to the TL). And if the only advantage that can be stated for buying the BMW over the TL is that extra .5 G of roadholding ability, that's just not going to pursuade me to fork over all that extra money. And, according to C&D, even the Accord coupe you are fond of mentioning is faster in the quarter mile than the 330 with performance pack.
But there is so much more to consider aside from numbers. The TL is quieter, quicker, better handling, more solid, better shifter, better clutch, better interior materials, etc. over the Accord. I can't say all that regarding the BMW.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
it's your money and it's your choice how to spend it.
as someone currently living in NYC and paying close to $400 a month in garage fees, i'd be paying nearly $5k a year in parking fees alone to be able to do what you're doing.
i frankly don't enjoy the advantages of RWD so much that i'll pay the extra in parking fees so i choose to go with FWD.
your categorical statement "There is little else to know once these facts are revealed to RWD fans. Its on deaf ears." is just plain wrong. people have needs, budgets, space limitations plus a desire to simplify one's life (something to be said for not having to worry about maintenance, insurance, registration, etc. for another car when you can only drive one at a time).
seems like a big waste to have 2 cars for yourself when you can get by with one, but i realize my personal minimalist philosophy of trying not to clutter your life with too many things is not for everyone.
BTW, if you live in Philly, have you tried Morimoto's restaurant? It's great. I highly recommend the top of the line omakase.
http://www.need-desire.com/main.html
Sign of things to come.
250HP
0-60 - 5.5 Secs
Are you looking for luxury?
Are you looking for value?
What are you willing to pay?
How important are other factors like reliability, crash test results, practicality, etc?
Think we can all agree that the 325i and 330i are highly related. And that the Accord V6 sedan and TL are highly related. (Heck, for that matter, the TSX is the European Accord.)
If all you worry about is a boring commute, save money and buy an inexpensive car or maybe a used car.
But if driving pleasure is your goal, then just any old car won't do.
And if you want the best, you are willing to pay for it, special order it, wait for it, etc.
Like I said before, too bad we can't break this board into 3 boards: RWD, FWD, and AWD. I can't imagine owning a high performance FWDer. To me, there is no such thing. Obviously, others disagree.
Performance? I'll give this one to the 3 Series
Luxury? Acura TL takes this one
Value? Hands down...TL
Price? TL all the way
Other factors like reliability, crash test results, practicality, etc? Let's just call this a tie, even though Acura is far more reliable
WINNER? Acura TL
Performance - 3 series
Styling - 3 series
Value - Here is the rub, value is in the eyes of the beholder. So if your bent is uncompromised handling then 3 series, if your bent is a mix of decent handling and goodiers, then TL.
Price - TL
Cost to lease for 3 years- tie
Winner - tie.
Why not just say they are different flavors of equally yummy ice cream??? That would be appropriate, and more accurate.
Have you ever heard the definition of a consultant? It's a guy who knows 300 different ways to make love... but doesn't personally know any women. (He just likes talking about it...)
Sounds like most of the people here.
Sorry.
I found this thread entertaining. Some of you must be comedians. If not, you should be.
With the U.S. dollars in the dump, people wanting to buy German cars (BMW) may have to pony up more dole. The Japanese are our friends (and we should buy their cars) because they are the only ones buying the U.S. dollar to keep it afloat :-)
Performance - 3 series
Styling - 3 series
Value - Here is the rub, value is in the eyes of the beholder. So if your bent is uncompromised handling then 3 series, if your bent is a mix of decent handling and goodiers, then TL.
Price - TL
Cost to lease for 3 years- tie
Winner - tie. "
I think we all agree that performance is marginally better, or I should say handling, so I 'll give this to 330(just to make you happy)
Styling is in the eyes of the beholder , you like 330 better others dont, I like both equally(330 better exterior, TL better interior), so lit say it's a tie.
Value goes hands down to TL, I think most us will agree, I think you can't include handling, because you already got a point for performance.
I would also give TL a point for features, but I'm not gona because it's part of the value.
Price I think all agree TL gets the point.
Cost to lease will go to TL. Lease for a none nav TL about $420-$450 including tax and maybe another $1,500 for all fees, total - $17,700 plus oil change $400= $18,100.
330 (performance pakg) lease is close to $550-$600 including tax plus fees $1,500 = $23,100.
So I say TL is a winner.
As for me if I could have lease loaded 330 for the same money as TL, I would do it, but it is at least $100 more a month.
No I meant performance.
Cost to lease...tie...you can get that down to about $500-520 making it about $19K or so. For a car that's 10 grand more paying a few dollars more isn't a big deal. BTW I'm paying just slightly more than $18K for mine. Just want to know that a fabulous deal, cause friend who has a 2003 TL is paying way more than that. Almost as much as my Bimmer.
Goodies - TL
Value - 3 series...cause it has everything I want and nothing I don't. If I thought the TL had more overall value, I would have gotten it. Value is the feeling for the priority of the intangibles and tangibles combined.
Price - TL...
Winner ...us.
Case in point, KD may want to assign 50 points to performance (because he is a performance fanatic) and only 5 points to value (because he is loaded and doesn't mind spending more money). If you tally the score based on weighted answers, your conclusion could very well be flawed.
Unless you all agree to the amount of weight to be given to each question (or factor), and I can assure you that you will never agree, the entire exercise is futile :-)
KD, You got a grate deal, when I was shopping for a car, the best price I got for loaded 330 was $650, but that was a while ago.
As for TL I got my S type for $450, when they just came out, could have shaved another $20-$30 off, but did not want wait.
Performance: 1=330i, 2=IS300, 3=325i
Goodies: 1=IS300, 2=330i, 3=325i
Price: 1=IS300, 2=325i, 3=330i
Value: 1=IS300, 2=325i, 3=330i
Styling: 1=IS300, 2=3 Series
Reliability: 1=IS300, 2=3 Series
Practicality: 1=3 Series, 2=IS300
Winner: IS300
No bias here!
In a mean while since TL disqualifies I will see you in my rear view mirror.
1. I'll see you in my rear view mirror.
2. Enjoy the backside view of my car.
Thanks in advance if you can help,
cybersol
Performance: 1=330i, 2=IS300, 3=325i
Goodies: 1=IS300, 2=330i, 3=325i
Price: 1=IS300, 2=325i, 3=330i
Value: 1=IS300, 2=325i, 3=330i
Styling: 1=IS300, 2=3 Series
Reliability: 1=IS300, 2=3 Series
Practicality: 1=3 Series, 2=IS300
Winner: IS300 No bias here!
See...this is a prime example of what I'm talking about when I say that some enthusiasts act like they're offering salvation, instead of discussing the (relative)merits of a car.
They never heard of words like objectivity, balanced, equitable, honest, sportsmanlike, statesmanlike, unbiased, unprejudiced, reasonable, impartial, rational, fair, open-minded, or sane, for that matter. They just try to beat you into submission with their "my car's great...but your car stinks" arguments.
Will the madness ever end? Sigh!!!
I like the tie idea. works for me.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Styling is inherently subjective. The CTS, TL and Maxima are all way too angularly styled for my taste. Trying to be overly modern. The 3 Series is tasteful but a bit bland. I think the IS300 is the best balance of tasteful and modern.
As for goodies, IS300 has a ton, including the most important of all: LSD! 3 Series can only be had with LSD in M3 version.
They tested a G35 automatic. Test data:
Dry braking, 60-0 mph: 133 ft
Avoidance maneuver: 54.0 mph
0-60 mph: 6.8 secs
1/4 mile: 15.4 secs
45-65 mph: 4.3 secs
Fuel economy: 20 mpg
Tires: Bridgestone Turanza EL42, P215/55R17 93V. So, again, pretty narrow tires compared to TL's 235s.
Predicted reliability: 2nd best rating.
Also, you have to take into account CR's methodology. Compare that to methodology of car magazines. Auto press usually uses whatever most aggressive method at launch.
And remember that CR does NOT get its cars from the manufacturers. It buys real cars off real dealers' lots. Is easy for manufacturers to give car magazines ringers!
Even with CRs testing methodolody, G35 came in behind 330i. It's not about the 330i being faster, it's about the 330i being the more expensive, holding it's own against cars having bigger engines, with a 35 hp/torque advantage. And while the 330i may lose the quarter mile to a G35, it loses by .1 second to a car with a .5 liter bigger engine.
riez - I believe is correct, that car mags use a do-or-die method to get the absolute fastest time. You wouldn't necessarily want to do that to your car. CR probably uses a more conservative approach, where drivetrain parts do not get strewn all over the tarmac.
Not knocking either car, you can't dismiss the performance/handling aspect of the 3-series, while extolling the value aspect of either car.
chrisboth - show me one review where the G35 sedan 6MT has a 5.5 time to 60.
You G35, TL & IS300 worshipers are gonna be upset when the new 2005 Legacy finally hits the shores. Performance and handling will leave those behind. The Legacy has already bettered a RS6 at a track in Japan. I say it here now so you won't be disappointed when the mags say it later. The BMW 330 Perf., Audi S4 and Volvo S60R/V70R will get their lickings also. I can't comment on the interior until I see it in person, although it is gonna be steps ahead.