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There are several things on my Mustang that either don't work or struggle (power windows and cruise control). The cruise control hasn't worked for 5 years but I am still driving it. The power windows in the back struggle to go up and down. I just don't use them much. They can be fixed though. I just don't see them as a necessity worth the cost. An engine problem would make it undriveable. I will keep the G35 about 20 not 10 years.
It is my opinion that if a car is to go the distance it is to go gracefully. I will never again drive a car where the components start to fail and I'm driving a cars with a number of subsystems inoperative. If I wanted a car like that I would have gotten a Rent-A-Wreck. I expect in 10 years, every subsystem to be working. To say a car has 200Kmiles, but the only thing operating is the engine and brakes, cause the radio, seats, mirrors are inop, the sunroof doesn't work, the A/C doesn't work etc. That car did not go the distance. My experience with people who have owned German cars that went the distance, is they went gracefully, albeit not without repairs, but a far cry from Rent-A-Wreck. I could get virtually any piece of junk to do that.
Again, which year are we taking about? I believe 2003 G35 will have equivalent quality and reliabilty quotient in 7 to 10 years to the 2003 3series excluding M3. If not, the BMW will hold up better. I freely admit that both Infiniti and BMW have had some so-called bad years.
Does not recommend (no red check) the 330i and predicts just above poor relaiability while the Infiniti I35 is recommended and is predicted to have an average reliability. There is no rating for the G35 yet because it is new.
It is important to note that CR tries to predict reliability based on past, however, that does not mean products not check rated are not above average in reliability, upkeep and the ability not to fall apart with age.
I do not predict the 3 series to be unreliable because CR did not check rate it. I predict it to be on par with it's competitors in this arena. It is also important to note that BMW beat Infiniti in the JD Power initial quality survey, perhaps more telling than CRs lack of a check-mark.
isn't initial quality different than reliability? I thought initial quality was problem areas on delivery, not problems that creep up with mileage or time.
Tops in all long term reliability surveys. 124,000 miles and every button still works and the 4.0 still kicks butt. I hope the same for my 1995 GS300. Just bought it at 130k. If I buy a Gee it'll just be for fun.
When looking at long term reliability it's important to remember that the e46 3er has been around since 1999 while the G is still only in its first year of production on a brand new platform. I'm sure Nissan has had to start working with new suppliers, parts, etc for the FM vehicles. Any time so many new components are coming together, something is bound to go wrong. While Nissan does have a fairly strong reliablility record the rules of probability dictate that it would be almost impossible for the current FM cars to be as reliable as other cars that have already proved strong reliability over many model years. This is precisely why I would wait at least two model years before buying a new car.
kdshapiro: Have you actually seen CR's review of the 330i? It has half black circles and hollow black cirlces all over it in the areas of electrical, fuel, brakes, power equipment, body integrity and body hardware all the way up through 2001. As the 2002 model ages, it will gain black marks as well.
The Infiniti I35, on the other hand, has only 4 hollow black cirlces on the whole page that includes all the way back to 1996. There are no half black or full blacks back through 1996.
The 330i is not even in the same ballpark.
The 5-series is generally rated high by CR but not in terms of reliability. There are 2 half black circles and 3 hollow black cirlces on the 1998 alone not to mention back to 1996. I suggest you go pick up a CR magazine instead of just reading the headlines.
I have internet access to CR as well as a long time subscriber, that's not the same review that I saw. All red circles, not sure what you are looking at. PS If you read my posts closely you will see that I freely admit BMW quality was not worldclass until recently. Just like Infinti has had it's share of problems so has BMW. If you go to CR online and check reliability history for the QX4 and 3er for the year 2002 (the year of my car). You will see, those results are nearly identical with the following exceptions - the QX4 has a red circle for body hardware/integrity where the 330i has red-half circles. That is a far cry from not being in the same class.
In addition, the JD Power survey is very telling as it seems to say more people are happier with the BMW than the Infiniti initially.
like I do can tell what I'm saying is true. The 5-series or the 3-series don't even measure up to the Infiniti I35. I submit that the G35 will be about the same.
I didn't say the 2002 had any black circles, quite the opposite. You said that its quality since 1998 was improved. What does CR say about the 1998 330i compared to the I35? Like I said, 2 half blacks and 3 hollow blacks comepared to the I35's good ratings. You can't look at a 1 year old car and tell anything about reliability 5-10 years down the road.
"In fact, the midlevel 530i recently became the highest-rated vehicle ever tested by Consumer Reports"
Go to CR online and check out the 5 series review and pay careful attention to the reliability history and all of the little red circles. I have been saying all along, and I'll either be right or be wrong that the current crop of 3series and G in 7 to 10 years will be equal in reliability (whatever your definition of that is), and in fact the 3 series will actually age more gracefully.
"In fact, the midlevel 530i recently became the highest-rated vehicle ever tested by Consumer Reports"
There is no mention of reliability in that statement. I am right now looking at the 5- series ratings from CR. The 1998 has 2 half black cirlces and 3 hollow black ones and 28 less than red circles on the whole 7 year review. The I35 has 4 less than red circles in the 7 years reviewed. How is that even close?
bigorange - if you look at 2002/2003 you will see the reliability history and see the red circles.
We are having two different conversations, you are trying to show a 1998 BMW is not as reliable as a 1998 Infiniti, I am trying to show a 2002 BMW is just as reliable as a 2002 Infinti and will the same be in 7 to 10 years. I am saying that BMW has had a concerted push to make it's vehicles fun to drive, reliable with the best even with longer than industry maintenance intervals.
In fact please answer the question of why would CR rate the 5 series - an overpriced, piece of unreliable junk as its' most top rated car ever?
"Therefore my contention is starting from 1998 and beyond, there will not be significant differences in terms of upkeep, care and reliability between the G35 and the 3/5 series."
Did you not?
and as far as
"In fact please answer the question of why would CR rate an overpriced, piece of unreliable junk as it most top rated car ever?"
I never said that it was an unreliable piece of junk but that it wasn't in the same reliability league with an Infiniti. CR rating system includes much more than reliability. The 5-series made up for its reliability shortcomings in the other rating areas. I see BMW as average to good and Infiniti as great as far as reliability goes. There is alot of room between junk and average to good but there this also a good bit of room between there and great.
that a car that "just runs" but has other little things go wrong with it -- power windows, electronics, and so on -- is not my idea of reliable. In fact I got rid of my high-mileage Maxima, not because it didn't run but because the sunroof motor wore out. So, for me "all" the little circles are important -- some black spots are just more aggravating than others.
That said: I'm surprised that kd didn't point out that the comparison of the I35 with the 330i isn't an apples::apples comparison at all. The I35 is a Maxima and is in the same ball park as an Accord or Camry or (1998) ES300. Meanwhile the 330i is a technically sophisticated and performance-oriented automobile. (Please: I'm not saying anything bad about the Max, just recognizing its transportation target.) As someone mentioned above, any highly-tuned car, especially one that takes some risks with new technology, is more susceptible to glitches. That new technology is, in fact, one of the reasons people buy it and are willing to put up with the convenience of its imperfections.
I'd also like to point out that this is the first time I can recall that kdshapiro and I are on the same side of a question! ;-)))
It is a sedan and really shouldn't be compared to the G35 coupe at all. It could be compared to the G35 Sedan and also reasonably to the I35. I agree that the G35 sedan is a better comparison than the I35 but the G35 has no history to look at to get an idea of reliability. I don't see any more "sophisticated" technology in the BMW than in the I35 or G35. Compare it to what you want to but it won't be hard for the Infiniti to come out on top.
I contend that the Z4 is a better comparison to the G35 coupe. I test drove a Z4 2 weeks ago and not as impressed as I was with the G35.
I believe if you look at the features between the I35 and the 330i the 330 is ahead of the I35, starting with the TCS. It also is ahead of the coupe and sedan in that the VDC can at least be turned off. In terms of features the G35 has caught up a bit and thus my assertion in 7-10 years the reliability will be about the same, maybe the BMW aging slightly better. Note I don't count telescopic steering wheel or reclining back seats as features likely to break.
In addition none of the aforementioned cars are sportscars, however, JWs assertion the BMW is more tuned than the Maxima and I35 is probably correct and by definition is meant to be driven harder than either of the aforementioned sedans is capable of. The debate about if the 330i is more or less tuned than the G will not be revived here by me.:)
In addition the 5 series has no reliabiity shortcomings in the last couple of years, yes a 1996 5 series may have, but not a current model.
than speculation. BMW may improve in years to come but it hasn't demonstrated it yet. 90% of all cars will not have black cirlces in the first year of review. That says nothing. The ones that have black cirles at 5 years old also had all reds when they were only 1 year old.
The 2000 model 5-series has 3 black circles. That's only 3 years ago. You have to go all the way back to 1998 before the Infiniti has even one. In fact, there are no black circles for ANY Infiniti on the road today after the 1998 model.
Your last post emphasises why I will speculate equally that both manufacturers will be in the neighboorhood. As neither you or I can predict the future, Infiniti may have a longer track record, but BMW has caught up as of the current year.
bigorange - do your homework check CRs website. Check 3/5 series reliability for 2002/2003. Count the red circles, count the black circles. Report back to us. Only time will tell, the long term reliability from today. Compare the to any vehicle on Infiniti's website for the same years with the same performance characteristics. That's my evidence. Let us know.
red circles in the first year. That is not an indication that BMW has improved. Those red circles become black as the car gets older. Next year, the 2002 will not have all red circles but the Infiniti 2002 will. Do you really understand how to interpret these things?
How can you back up your statements? Are you really interpeting this information correctly? do you have a crystal ball that nobody else has? It seems to me you are making an opinion, the same way I am. And my opinion in 7-10 years a BMW 330i will age more gracefully than a G35. There is no basis of fact for the future, other than the little red circles. Nonetheless, we shall see what happens.
Anyone know of when the 04 G35 coupe will be coming out and the specs on it? What are they planning to change on it? Hopefully the interior material...Thanks
in 1996-2001 on the BMW compared to the Infiniti. History tells us that if you do things they way you've always done them, you will get the same thing you've always got. The 1998 BMW had all red cirlces in the 1999 edition of CR. Then those circles have turned black as the different issues of CR have come out and the years have passed. The Infiniti circles have not changed. They are still red. Did something drastically change about the way BMW builds cars in 2002? If not, we should expect the same results. History is all we have to go one. Famous people have been quoted to say that a look at the past gives you insight toward the future. I am basing my statements on historical facts. What are you basing yours on?
Let me try the "translation" from bio-orange's comments (which I agree with BTW):
The MORE RECENT info is BIASED towards providing a FAVORABLE view of all models(therefore making BMW SEEMINGLY more comparable to Infiniti based on MORE LIMITED history), but trends OVER TIME are the real measure of the the RELIABILITY of the automobile. Favorable recent marks are therefore not indicative of LONG-TERM IMPROVEMENTS. . . YET. Favorable recent marks should not be MISCONTRUED as improvements from LOWER HISTORICAL marks - it's more like an INCOMPLETE set of data that will be COMPLETED over time.
Whether reliability is important in a buying decision is up to the individual.
I wouldn't call it biased. Its just that parts have not had enough time on most cars (except maybe some Chyrslers) at 1 year to start breaking. The data shows that the parts will start breaking earlier on the BMW (2-3 years) than on the Infiniti (5-6 years). Watch what I say. The 2002 BMW will have some black circles in next years edition of CR.
Your last statement though is right on target.
"Favorable recent marks should not be MISCONTRUED as improvements from LOWER HISTORICAL marks - it's more like an INCOMPLETE set of data that will be COMPLETED over time."
I am basing my observations/opinions on the increased reliability, one of the sources is CR. The second is JD Power. The third is the vehicle I currently own, which forgot where the dealer was. I believe the trend of increased reliability and BMW has it's act together. Thus I stand by opinion, that in 2010 a 2003 G35 and 330i will rated similiarly in reliability given the complex systems on these cars. In fact I believe the BMW will age more gracefully.
"The MORE RECENT info generally provides a FAVORABLE view of all models(therefore making BMW SEEMINGLY more comparable to Infiniti) DUE TO LIMITED DATA, but trends OVER TIME are the real measure of the the RELIABILITY of the automobile."
BTW I read earlier you're a big fan of the "buy and hold" approach. On the G35 are you thinking new model 2nd production year slightly pre-owned or completely new?
I saw a gray(?) G35 coupe today, it didn't strike me this time as it did when I first saw the coupe (or maybe it was just the color - the first one I saw was blue). All in all though, it's a nice car, but I still like the BMW 330i and ci! :-)
Like rob said before, JD Power's review is about INITIAL quality. Your experience, jdshapiro, is caught up in the same first year problem that CR has. The parts aren't old enough to break yet. Give it time, they will. Come back and report to us when it is 5 years old. Predicting reliability is best done based on long term history not short term recent history. It takes alot of data of parts with some age on them. If you intend to just keep a car for a year and then trade it in for a new one, then your experience is relevant.
I am probably looking at a 2004 or 2005 model and it will be brand new. I still haven't decided for sure if it will be the G35 mainly because I haven't finalized my list and order of criteria. Reliability and appearance are probably tops followed closely by performance and price. Amenities are also important to me. Ones with back seats also have an advantage because of my family. My list includes:
Corvette (probably used) Porsche Boxter (used) Cadillac CTS Infiniti G35 coupe or sedan Nissan 350Z BMW 330i
I love the looks and performance of the corvette but I'm not sure I can take the horrible reliability reputation. I am leaning toward the G35 coupe right now.
In years of buying cars have always noticed cars cars that spend the least time at the dealer the first year tend to be the most reliable, sort of what the JD Power quality survey says. That is my Toyota, not any of my Nissans, Ford, Honda, BMW etc. We can debate this until the cows come home, but my observation is the engine always goes the distance, how well will the rest of the car follow. In the year 2010, I believe the G will be outdone by the 3 series. Only time will tell. My buying habits will reflect that belief should I decide that more BMWs are in my future. (as much as I love this car, I love to try out new ones)
it makes sense that the vehicles that spend the least time in the shop the first year will be the most reliable. Both of these vehicles are among the best vehicles on the road during the first year. Its in the 5 year range that you begin to separate the good from the best.
You are free to make your decision on a total guess that BMW has improved. Unless they have changed suppliers, specifications or assembly practices on some of the parts that are breaking at 3-5 years, then it just won't happen. Then you have to be pretty sure you have made the RIGHT change to fix the problem. On the other hand, Infiniti has demonstrated that they know how to write parts specifications, who to buy them from and know how to put the parts together. It is a reasonable assumption that they are using the same suppliers and same specification writers and same workforce to make the G35 as they did to make the I35 over the past 6 years. Therefore, it is not a leap to say it will perform as well.
I am basing my opinion on facts are you are basing yours on a guess. That's OK, many people do. Isn't that the way buy stocks works? Those who make the best guesses, make the most money. Most of the good analysts and investors use historical data and only very little predictive data to based their purchases on.
that the G35 was developed and produced in Japan for a number of years before the North American introduction. This is not a first-year car as most people define it.
Believe me, I know. I bought a Lincoln LS the first year. It is a first-year car, though the problems have been minor.
It's interesting to see advocates of other brands actively engaged on this board. Often those on other boards denegrate the G people when they visit. There doesn't seem to be much of that here.
Anyway, guys, keep it coming. Many of us are reading regularly.
There are no facts to support the G35 yet. The only real facts are the JD Power survey and the red circles in CR. You are absolutely correct, the wheat will be separated from the chafe in 5 years. There is no fact that a reliable manufacturer will continue to do so, such as Honda or the Lexus fiasco. We shall see in five to ten years what the true story is. In the meantime, my assertion that todays complex machinery will not go the distance with components intact. I do not believe 2003 modern vehicles can make it to 10 years with all componentry working, without replacing some of it, as jw pointed out in his post about the sunroof on a seven year old car. From that perspective G or 3 alike will be equal, but I contend the 3 will age better although it too will need to have maintenance repairs.
Boy, those last 50 posts were BORING! I thought I was back in the "Infiniti G35 Coupe vs. BMW 330Ci" topic again! Infiniti vs BMW, Japanese vs German, boring vs unreliable, Packers vs Bears.
I find it interesting how the BMW fans gravitate toward the G35 forums to preach more of the Ultimate Driving Machine gospel. If the G35 should "not be compared to the 330", as one of the BMW clergy has posted here, then why does the BMW clique continually preach the BMW religion "driving passion", reliability, and resale on the G35 specific topics?
Because they are VERY interested in this new "boring" and "soulless" Japanese car that has been out-performing their worshipped benchmark in many publications, and for roughly $7000 less!
Fear not, BMW-witnesses, you can keep your propeller cap and re-subscribe to Roundel, as BMW is STILL the benchmark, but with a higher initial cost, and a lower (perceived?) reliability, it is not infallible. Chris Bangle's designs alone, are testing the true dedication of it's clientele.
I myself, love the competition, as it forces all manufacturers to strive to continually out-perform each other, instead of complacency. I applaud Nissan's recent efforts to make it to a BMW comparison level, as this was not the case just a few years ago.
Sorry for the late reply. I left work a little early to catch the Dallas Auto Show that just opened! I am looking to purchase sometime starting winter '03. The timing will depend on patience and available mkt info (on future models). For me, unfortunately, my list must include 4 seats. Here is my car shopping list:
1) Mazda RX-8 2) BMW 3-Series (pre-owned) 3) BMW M3 (pre-owned) 4) G35 (probably pre-owned)
I'm going to wait till the RX-8 is out a few months and I get to test drive all the cars. Also, I want to see if the RX-7 is made.
All of these links show that BMW may be a hair behind Infiniti in Long-term reliability, but one must consider that the 3 series is much more highly tuned and sporting than the I30 and one should expect some more issues.
It's clear that (some) statistics may prove that a 5 year old Infiniti is more reliable than a 5 year old BMW, but those studies don't compare apples to apples. For example, a Cadillac Sedan DeVille is one of the best cars on the road in terms of initial quality and long-term relibility. Would that sway a G35 shopper to cast aside his sporting intentions and choose the gold wreath?
Personally, I think the Japanese might have a slight edge over the Germans and Domestics in reliability, but the difference is probably statistically insignificant and more myth and perception than anything else.
Modern automobiles, be they from Lexus or Chrysler, are amazingly well built and reliable. If you buy a new car of any make, your chances are extremely good that it will be trouble free for many years. Most of the troubles one hears about are anecdotal and apply to a small fraction of the total number of cars on the road.
Finally, I would argue (and insurance companies bank on this) that if something doesn't fail within the first 12 months, then there isn't anything wrong with it. Stuff wears out over time and use (or abuse) no matter who builds it. I am personally more concerned with the quality of the components at the time of purchase because they can be a good indicator of how long they will hold up...hence the basic premise of the JD Power Initial Quality Survey.
I think the G35 is a fine automobile and a worthy competitor to BMW. They both offer fine quality and performance...each in a different flavour.
"probably statistically insignificant and more myth and perception than anything else"
CR collects actual data from actual owners experiencing problems. I agree that its a small percentage but when you sped $30-40K on a vehicle and it has problems, your statistic becomes 100%. Therefore, the difference of 2% vs. 10% is a huge difference to me. Those aren't just myths since you either have a problem or you don't. These problems are just counted and translated to red or black cirlces. That is not a subjective thing to interpret.
and as far as
"if something doesn't fail within the first 12 months, then there isn't anything wrong with it"
that just says that the part installed is installed as specified by the engineer that designed it. If it is underspecified, it will take longer to determine that. Some manufacturers (not BMW or Infiniti) try to build a car as cheap as possible so that they can have a lower price than the competition.
If you add on top of the fact that the Infiniti is more reliable, it is $8K less expensive.
But one could argue you get $8K less of automobile. If that wasn't the case BMW or Lexus or Ferrari or Porsche wouldn't even sell one automobile that was a dollar above the competitors. Obviously people see the value in higher priced automobiles that they choose to acquire.
Sure, it is entirely possible that may be getting $8000 less of automobile, but conversely, there's always the old adage, "You can buy better, but you can't pay more."
And then there's the old adage: "you get what you pay for".
Making the leap from the 330 coupe to the G35 coupe is a stretch. One cannot say the G35 is cannabalizing 330 coupe sales any more than the Acura TL-S is cannabalizing G35 sales. One cannot draw a conclusion about why coupe sales are down, when your car company lineup allows for a "have it your way" mentality. The fact is the 325 is the most popular BMW vehicle, coupe, convertible, sedan, RWD/AWD, have it your way. We don't know if coupe defectors move on to other Bimmers or other manufacturers.
Do sales figures have any bearing on the "wholeness" of the automobile as it relates to form and function. Does the fact the Honda Accord outsells the G35 make it a better car? Or that the Honda outsells the 3series make it better? Does volume relate to bestness? What happens when and if the G35 becomes as common as Acuras? Or do I daresay BMWs. Then do those who don't like "dime-a-dozen" automobiles move from Infiniti on to the next brand? Or was this dime-a-dozen thing all rhetoric?
I think the fact that BMW owners are even bothering to come out to Infiniti boards and mention the G35 in the same sentence as gasp, their ultimate driving machines, is a testament to the turnaround that has gone on at Nissan over the past few years. IMO Nissan made the right move by not attempting to make a carbon copy of the 3er. The sedan is larger and makes more practical family transportation than the 3er sedan. In contrast the coupe is just flat out sexier than the 3er coupe imo. Especially in blue or red the sight of a G35C still makes me turn my head every time, and I see them quite frequently here in San Diego. While German cars have long been throughly competent, outside of Porsche, they haven't been very emotional to me. When I drove my friend's 328i I felt it was a very nice car that lacked a sense of excitement. On the other hand driving a 350Z presented a certain emotional quality that was missing in the teutonic sterility of the BMW. To me, as Nissan is starting to make cars that perform more and more like BMW's, they are moving the personalities of the cars in an entirely different direction, and I like that.
Comments
I do not predict the 3 series to be unreliable because CR did not check rate it. I predict it to be on par with it's competitors in this arena. It is also important to note that BMW beat Infiniti in the JD Power initial quality survey, perhaps more telling than CRs lack of a check-mark.
kdshapiro: Have you actually seen CR's review of the 330i? It has half black circles and hollow black cirlces all over it in the areas of electrical, fuel, brakes, power equipment, body integrity and body hardware all the way up through 2001. As the 2002 model ages, it will gain black marks as well.
The Infiniti I35, on the other hand, has only 4 hollow black cirlces on the whole page that includes all the way back to 1996. There are no half black or full blacks back through 1996.
The 330i is not even in the same ballpark.
The 5-series is generally rated high by CR but not in terms of reliability. There are 2 half black circles and 3 hollow black cirlces on the 1998 alone not to mention back to 1996. I suggest you go pick up a CR magazine instead of just reading the headlines.
In addition, the JD Power survey is very telling as it seems to say more people are happier with the BMW than the Infiniti initially.
I didn't say the 2002 had any black circles, quite the opposite. You said that its quality since 1998 was improved. What does CR say about the 1998 330i compared to the I35? Like I said, 2 half blacks and 3 hollow blacks comepared to the I35's good ratings. You can't look at a 1 year old car and tell anything about reliability 5-10 years down the road.
Go to CR online and check out the 5 series review and pay careful attention to the reliability history and all of the little red circles. I have been saying all along, and I'll either be right or be wrong that the current crop of 3series and G in 7 to 10 years will be equal in reliability (whatever your definition of that is), and in fact the 3 series will actually age more gracefully.
There is no mention of reliability in that statement. I am right now looking at the 5- series ratings from CR. The 1998 has 2 half black cirlces and 3 hollow black ones and 28 less than red circles on the whole 7 year review. The I35 has 4 less than red circles in the 7 years reviewed. How is that even close?
We are having two different conversations, you are trying to show a 1998 BMW is not as reliable as a 1998 Infiniti, I am trying to show a 2002 BMW is just as reliable as a 2002 Infinti and will the same be in 7 to 10 years. I am saying that BMW has had a concerted push to make it's vehicles fun to drive, reliable with the best even with longer than industry maintenance intervals.
In fact please answer the question of why would CR rate the 5 series - an overpriced, piece of unreliable junk as its' most top rated car ever?
Did you not?
and as far as
"In fact please answer the question of why would CR rate an overpriced, piece of unreliable junk as it most top rated car ever?"
I never said that it was an unreliable piece of junk but that it wasn't in the same reliability league with an Infiniti. CR rating system includes much more than reliability. The 5-series made up for its reliability shortcomings in the other rating areas. I see BMW as average to good and Infiniti as great as far as reliability goes. There is alot of room between junk and average to good but there this also a good bit of room between there and great.
That said: I'm surprised that kd didn't point out that the comparison of the I35 with the 330i isn't an apples::apples comparison at all. The I35 is a Maxima and is in the same ball park as an Accord or Camry or (1998) ES300. Meanwhile the 330i is a technically sophisticated and performance-oriented automobile. (Please: I'm not saying anything bad about the Max, just recognizing its transportation target.) As someone mentioned above, any highly-tuned car, especially one that takes some risks with new technology, is more susceptible to glitches. That new technology is, in fact, one of the reasons people buy it and are willing to put up with the convenience of its imperfections.
I'd also like to point out that this is the first time I can recall that kdshapiro and I are on the same side of a question! ;-)))
JW
I contend that the Z4 is a better comparison to the G35 coupe. I test drove a Z4 2 weeks ago and not as impressed as I was with the G35.
In addition none of the aforementioned cars are sportscars, however, JWs assertion the BMW is more tuned than the Maxima and I35 is probably correct and by definition is meant to be driven harder than either of the aforementioned sedans is capable of. The debate about if the 330i is more or less tuned than the G will not be revived here by me.:)
In addition the 5 series has no reliabiity shortcomings in the last couple of years, yes a 1996 5 series may have, but not a current model.
The 2000 model 5-series has 3 black circles. That's only 3 years ago. You have to go all the way back to 1998 before the Infiniti has even one. In fact, there are no black circles for ANY Infiniti on the road today after the 1998 model.
The MORE RECENT info is BIASED towards providing a FAVORABLE view of all models(therefore making BMW SEEMINGLY more comparable to Infiniti based on MORE LIMITED history), but trends OVER TIME are the real measure of the the RELIABILITY of the automobile. Favorable recent marks are therefore not indicative of LONG-TERM IMPROVEMENTS. . . YET. Favorable recent marks should not be MISCONTRUED as improvements from LOWER HISTORICAL marks - it's more like an INCOMPLETE set of data that will be COMPLETED over time.
Whether reliability is important in a buying decision is up to the individual.
Your last statement though is right on target.
"Favorable recent marks should not be MISCONTRUED as improvements from LOWER HISTORICAL marks - it's more like an INCOMPLETE set of data that will be COMPLETED over time."
"The MORE RECENT info generally provides a FAVORABLE view of all models(therefore making BMW SEEMINGLY more comparable to Infiniti) DUE TO LIMITED DATA, but trends OVER TIME are the real measure of the the RELIABILITY of the automobile."
BTW I read earlier you're a big fan of the "buy and hold" approach. On the G35 are you thinking new model 2nd production year slightly pre-owned or completely new?
Corvette (probably used)
Porsche Boxter (used)
Cadillac CTS
Infiniti G35 coupe or sedan
Nissan 350Z
BMW 330i
I love the looks and performance of the corvette but I'm not sure I can take the horrible reliability reputation. I am leaning toward the G35 coupe right now.
You are free to make your decision on a total guess that BMW has improved. Unless they have changed suppliers, specifications or assembly practices on some of the parts that are breaking at 3-5 years, then it just won't happen. Then you have to be pretty sure you have made the RIGHT change to fix the problem. On the other hand, Infiniti has demonstrated that they know how to write parts specifications, who to buy them from and know how to put the parts together. It is a reasonable assumption that they are using the same suppliers and same specification writers and same workforce to make the G35 as they did to make the I35 over the past 6 years. Therefore, it is not a leap to say it will perform as well.
I am basing my opinion on facts are you are basing yours on a guess. That's OK, many people do. Isn't that the way buy stocks works? Those who make the best guesses, make the most money. Most of the good analysts and investors use historical data and only very little predictive data to based their purchases on.
Believe me, I know. I bought a Lincoln LS the first year. It is a first-year car, though the problems have been minor.
It's interesting to see advocates of other brands actively engaged on this board. Often those on other boards denegrate the G people when they visit. There doesn't seem to be much of that here.
Anyway, guys, keep it coming. Many of us are reading regularly.
I find it interesting how the BMW fans gravitate toward the G35 forums to preach more of the Ultimate Driving Machine gospel. If the G35 should "not be compared to the 330", as one of the BMW clergy has posted here, then why does the BMW clique continually preach the BMW religion "driving passion", reliability, and resale on the G35 specific topics?
Because they are VERY interested in this new "boring" and "soulless" Japanese car that has been out-performing their worshipped benchmark in many publications, and for roughly $7000 less!
Fear not, BMW-witnesses, you can keep your propeller cap and re-subscribe to Roundel, as BMW is STILL the benchmark, but with a higher initial cost, and a lower (perceived?) reliability, it is not infallible. Chris Bangle's designs alone, are testing the true dedication of it's clientele.
I myself, love the competition, as it forces all manufacturers to strive to continually out-perform each other, instead of complacency. I applaud Nissan's recent efforts to make it to a BMW comparison level, as this was not the case just a few years ago.
Now back to some good ol' G35 discussion.....:^)
Sorry for the late reply. I left work a little early to catch the Dallas Auto Show that just opened! I am looking to purchase sometime starting winter '03. The timing will depend on patience and available mkt info (on future models). For me, unfortunately, my list must include 4 seats. Here is my car shopping list:
1) Mazda RX-8
2) BMW 3-Series (pre-owned)
3) BMW M3 (pre-owned)
4) G35 (probably pre-owned)
I'm going to wait till the RX-8 is out a few months and I get to test drive all the cars. Also, I want to see if the RX-7 is made.
http://www.jdpower.com/auto/jdpa_ratings/FindJdAwardsResults.jsp
http://www.consumerreports.org/main/detailv3.jsp?WebLogicSession=- PoI52vMldPfRrHc2KKjWqlZXJusIb3zZsjSh5wwrFGO2FU1524cD|-31263218562- 25327810/169937912/6/7005/7005/7002/7002/7005/-1|3165710093133098- 820/169937909/6/7005/7005/7002/7002/7005/-1&CONTENT%3C%3Ecnt_- id=302621&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=113261&bmUID=104872188323- 1
All of these links show that BMW may be a hair behind Infiniti in Long-term reliability, but one must consider that the 3 series is much more highly tuned and sporting than the I30 and one should expect some more issues.
Neither car is unreliable
Personally, I think the Japanese might have a slight edge over the Germans and Domestics in reliability, but the difference is probably statistically insignificant and more myth and perception than anything else.
Modern automobiles, be they from Lexus or Chrysler, are amazingly well built and reliable. If you buy a new car of any make, your chances are extremely good that it will be trouble free for many years. Most of the troubles one hears about are anecdotal and apply to a small fraction of the total number of cars on the road.
Finally, I would argue (and insurance companies bank on this) that if something doesn't fail within the first 12 months, then there isn't anything wrong with it. Stuff wears out over time and use (or abuse) no matter who builds it. I am personally more concerned with the quality of the components at the time of purchase because they can be a good indicator of how long they will hold up...hence the basic premise of the JD Power Initial Quality Survey.
I think the G35 is a fine automobile and a worthy competitor to BMW. They both offer fine quality and performance...each in a different flavour.
CR collects actual data from actual owners experiencing problems. I agree that its a small percentage but when you sped $30-40K on a vehicle and it has problems, your statistic becomes 100%. Therefore, the difference of 2% vs. 10% is a huge difference to me. Those aren't just myths since you either have a problem or you don't. These problems are just counted and translated to red or black cirlces. That is not a subjective thing to interpret.
and as far as
"if something doesn't fail within the first 12 months, then there isn't anything wrong with it"
that just says that the part installed is installed as specified by the engineer that designed it. If it is underspecified, it will take longer to determine that. Some manufacturers (not BMW or Infiniti) try to build a car as cheap as possible so that they can have a lower price than the competition.
If you add on top of the fact that the Infiniti is more reliable, it is $8K less expensive.
Sales for February 2003 for the BMW 3 series coupe were 1,201 units, down from 1,660 in 2002.
The Infiniti G35 coupe sold 1,429 units up from 0 in 2002.
The BMW 3 series sedan however is still out selling the G35 sedan handily (5,579 vs 2,411) for the same month.
Making the leap from the 330 coupe to the G35 coupe is a stretch. One cannot say the G35 is cannabalizing 330 coupe sales any more than the Acura TL-S is cannabalizing G35 sales. One cannot draw a conclusion about why coupe sales are down, when your car company lineup allows for a "have it your way" mentality. The fact is the 325 is the most popular BMW vehicle, coupe, convertible, sedan, RWD/AWD, have it your way. We don't know if coupe defectors move on to other Bimmers or other manufacturers.
Do sales figures have any bearing on the "wholeness" of the automobile as it relates to form and function. Does the fact the Honda Accord outsells the G35 make it a better car? Or that the Honda outsells the 3series make it better? Does volume relate to bestness? What happens when and if the G35 becomes as common as Acuras? Or do I daresay BMWs. Then do those who don't like "dime-a-dozen" automobiles move from Infiniti on to the next brand? Or was this dime-a-dozen thing all rhetoric?