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I do not predict the 3 series to be unreliable because CR did not check rate it. I predict it to be on par with it's competitors in this arena. It is also important to note that BMW beat Infiniti in the JD Power initial quality survey, perhaps more telling than CRs lack of a check-mark.
kdshapiro: Have you actually seen CR's review of the 330i? It has half black circles and hollow black cirlces all over it in the areas of electrical, fuel, brakes, power equipment, body integrity and body hardware all the way up through 2001. As the 2002 model ages, it will gain black marks as well.
The Infiniti I35, on the other hand, has only 4 hollow black cirlces on the whole page that includes all the way back to 1996. There are no half black or full blacks back through 1996.
The 330i is not even in the same ballpark.
The 5-series is generally rated high by CR but not in terms of reliability. There are 2 half black circles and 3 hollow black cirlces on the 1998 alone not to mention back to 1996. I suggest you go pick up a CR magazine instead of just reading the headlines.
In addition, the JD Power survey is very telling as it seems to say more people are happier with the BMW than the Infiniti initially.
I didn't say the 2002 had any black circles, quite the opposite. You said that its quality since 1998 was improved. What does CR say about the 1998 330i compared to the I35? Like I said, 2 half blacks and 3 hollow blacks comepared to the I35's good ratings. You can't look at a 1 year old car and tell anything about reliability 5-10 years down the road.
Go to CR online and check out the 5 series review and pay careful attention to the reliability history and all of the little red circles. I have been saying all along, and I'll either be right or be wrong that the current crop of 3series and G in 7 to 10 years will be equal in reliability (whatever your definition of that is), and in fact the 3 series will actually age more gracefully.
There is no mention of reliability in that statement. I am right now looking at the 5- series ratings from CR. The 1998 has 2 half black cirlces and 3 hollow black ones and 28 less than red circles on the whole 7 year review. The I35 has 4 less than red circles in the 7 years reviewed. How is that even close?
We are having two different conversations, you are trying to show a 1998 BMW is not as reliable as a 1998 Infiniti, I am trying to show a 2002 BMW is just as reliable as a 2002 Infinti and will the same be in 7 to 10 years. I am saying that BMW has had a concerted push to make it's vehicles fun to drive, reliable with the best even with longer than industry maintenance intervals.
In fact please answer the question of why would CR rate the 5 series - an overpriced, piece of unreliable junk as its' most top rated car ever?
Did you not?
and as far as
"In fact please answer the question of why would CR rate an overpriced, piece of unreliable junk as it most top rated car ever?"
I never said that it was an unreliable piece of junk but that it wasn't in the same reliability league with an Infiniti. CR rating system includes much more than reliability. The 5-series made up for its reliability shortcomings in the other rating areas. I see BMW as average to good and Infiniti as great as far as reliability goes. There is alot of room between junk and average to good but there this also a good bit of room between there and great.
That said: I'm surprised that kd didn't point out that the comparison of the I35 with the 330i isn't an apples::apples comparison at all. The I35 is a Maxima and is in the same ball park as an Accord or Camry or (1998) ES300. Meanwhile the 330i is a technically sophisticated and performance-oriented automobile. (Please: I'm not saying anything bad about the Max, just recognizing its transportation target.) As someone mentioned above, any highly-tuned car, especially one that takes some risks with new technology, is more susceptible to glitches. That new technology is, in fact, one of the reasons people buy it and are willing to put up with the convenience of its imperfections.
I'd also like to point out that this is the first time I can recall that kdshapiro and I are on the same side of a question! ;-)))
JW
I contend that the Z4 is a better comparison to the G35 coupe. I test drove a Z4 2 weeks ago and not as impressed as I was with the G35.
In addition none of the aforementioned cars are sportscars, however, JWs assertion the BMW is more tuned than the Maxima and I35 is probably correct and by definition is meant to be driven harder than either of the aforementioned sedans is capable of. The debate about if the 330i is more or less tuned than the G will not be revived here by me.:)
In addition the 5 series has no reliabiity shortcomings in the last couple of years, yes a 1996 5 series may have, but not a current model.
The 2000 model 5-series has 3 black circles. That's only 3 years ago. You have to go all the way back to 1998 before the Infiniti has even one. In fact, there are no black circles for ANY Infiniti on the road today after the 1998 model.
The MORE RECENT info is BIASED towards providing a FAVORABLE view of all models(therefore making BMW SEEMINGLY more comparable to Infiniti based on MORE LIMITED history), but trends OVER TIME are the real measure of the the RELIABILITY of the automobile. Favorable recent marks are therefore not indicative of LONG-TERM IMPROVEMENTS. . . YET. Favorable recent marks should not be MISCONTRUED as improvements from LOWER HISTORICAL marks - it's more like an INCOMPLETE set of data that will be COMPLETED over time.
Whether reliability is important in a buying decision is up to the individual.
Your last statement though is right on target.
"Favorable recent marks should not be MISCONTRUED as improvements from LOWER HISTORICAL marks - it's more like an INCOMPLETE set of data that will be COMPLETED over time."
"The MORE RECENT info generally provides a FAVORABLE view of all models(therefore making BMW SEEMINGLY more comparable to Infiniti) DUE TO LIMITED DATA, but trends OVER TIME are the real measure of the the RELIABILITY of the automobile."
BTW I read earlier you're a big fan of the "buy and hold" approach. On the G35 are you thinking new model 2nd production year slightly pre-owned or completely new?
Corvette (probably used)
Porsche Boxter (used)
Cadillac CTS
Infiniti G35 coupe or sedan
Nissan 350Z
BMW 330i
I love the looks and performance of the corvette but I'm not sure I can take the horrible reliability reputation. I am leaning toward the G35 coupe right now.
You are free to make your decision on a total guess that BMW has improved. Unless they have changed suppliers, specifications or assembly practices on some of the parts that are breaking at 3-5 years, then it just won't happen. Then you have to be pretty sure you have made the RIGHT change to fix the problem. On the other hand, Infiniti has demonstrated that they know how to write parts specifications, who to buy them from and know how to put the parts together. It is a reasonable assumption that they are using the same suppliers and same specification writers and same workforce to make the G35 as they did to make the I35 over the past 6 years. Therefore, it is not a leap to say it will perform as well.
I am basing my opinion on facts are you are basing yours on a guess. That's OK, many people do. Isn't that the way buy stocks works? Those who make the best guesses, make the most money. Most of the good analysts and investors use historical data and only very little predictive data to based their purchases on.
Believe me, I know. I bought a Lincoln LS the first year. It is a first-year car, though the problems have been minor.
It's interesting to see advocates of other brands actively engaged on this board. Often those on other boards denegrate the G people when they visit. There doesn't seem to be much of that here.
Anyway, guys, keep it coming. Many of us are reading regularly.
I find it interesting how the BMW fans gravitate toward the G35 forums to preach more of the Ultimate Driving Machine gospel. If the G35 should "not be compared to the 330", as one of the BMW clergy has posted here, then why does the BMW clique continually preach the BMW religion "driving passion", reliability, and resale on the G35 specific topics?
Because they are VERY interested in this new "boring" and "soulless" Japanese car that has been out-performing their worshipped benchmark in many publications, and for roughly $7000 less!
Fear not, BMW-witnesses, you can keep your propeller cap and re-subscribe to Roundel, as BMW is STILL the benchmark, but with a higher initial cost, and a lower (perceived?) reliability, it is not infallible. Chris Bangle's designs alone, are testing the true dedication of it's clientele.
I myself, love the competition, as it forces all manufacturers to strive to continually out-perform each other, instead of complacency. I applaud Nissan's recent efforts to make it to a BMW comparison level, as this was not the case just a few years ago.
Now back to some good ol' G35 discussion.....:^)
Sorry for the late reply. I left work a little early to catch the Dallas Auto Show that just opened! I am looking to purchase sometime starting winter '03. The timing will depend on patience and available mkt info (on future models). For me, unfortunately, my list must include 4 seats. Here is my car shopping list:
1) Mazda RX-8
2) BMW 3-Series (pre-owned)
3) BMW M3 (pre-owned)
4) G35 (probably pre-owned)
I'm going to wait till the RX-8 is out a few months and I get to test drive all the cars. Also, I want to see if the RX-7 is made.
http://www.jdpower.com/auto/jdpa_ratings/FindJdAwardsResults.jsp
http://www.consumerreports.org/main/detailv3.jsp?WebLogicSession=- PoI52vMldPfRrHc2KKjWqlZXJusIb3zZsjSh5wwrFGO2FU1524cD|-31263218562- 25327810/169937912/6/7005/7005/7002/7002/7005/-1|3165710093133098- 820/169937909/6/7005/7005/7002/7002/7005/-1&CONTENT%3C%3Ecnt_- id=302621&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=113261&bmUID=104872188323- 1
All of these links show that BMW may be a hair behind Infiniti in Long-term reliability, but one must consider that the 3 series is much more highly tuned and sporting than the I30 and one should expect some more issues.
Neither car is unreliable
Personally, I think the Japanese might have a slight edge over the Germans and Domestics in reliability, but the difference is probably statistically insignificant and more myth and perception than anything else.
Modern automobiles, be they from Lexus or Chrysler, are amazingly well built and reliable. If you buy a new car of any make, your chances are extremely good that it will be trouble free for many years. Most of the troubles one hears about are anecdotal and apply to a small fraction of the total number of cars on the road.
Finally, I would argue (and insurance companies bank on this) that if something doesn't fail within the first 12 months, then there isn't anything wrong with it. Stuff wears out over time and use (or abuse) no matter who builds it. I am personally more concerned with the quality of the components at the time of purchase because they can be a good indicator of how long they will hold up...hence the basic premise of the JD Power Initial Quality Survey.
I think the G35 is a fine automobile and a worthy competitor to BMW. They both offer fine quality and performance...each in a different flavour.
CR collects actual data from actual owners experiencing problems. I agree that its a small percentage but when you sped $30-40K on a vehicle and it has problems, your statistic becomes 100%. Therefore, the difference of 2% vs. 10% is a huge difference to me. Those aren't just myths since you either have a problem or you don't. These problems are just counted and translated to red or black cirlces. That is not a subjective thing to interpret.
and as far as
"if something doesn't fail within the first 12 months, then there isn't anything wrong with it"
that just says that the part installed is installed as specified by the engineer that designed it. If it is underspecified, it will take longer to determine that. Some manufacturers (not BMW or Infiniti) try to build a car as cheap as possible so that they can have a lower price than the competition.
If you add on top of the fact that the Infiniti is more reliable, it is $8K less expensive.
Sales for February 2003 for the BMW 3 series coupe were 1,201 units, down from 1,660 in 2002.
The Infiniti G35 coupe sold 1,429 units up from 0 in 2002.
The BMW 3 series sedan however is still out selling the G35 sedan handily (5,579 vs 2,411) for the same month.
Making the leap from the 330 coupe to the G35 coupe is a stretch. One cannot say the G35 is cannabalizing 330 coupe sales any more than the Acura TL-S is cannabalizing G35 sales. One cannot draw a conclusion about why coupe sales are down, when your car company lineup allows for a "have it your way" mentality. The fact is the 325 is the most popular BMW vehicle, coupe, convertible, sedan, RWD/AWD, have it your way. We don't know if coupe defectors move on to other Bimmers or other manufacturers.
Do sales figures have any bearing on the "wholeness" of the automobile as it relates to form and function. Does the fact the Honda Accord outsells the G35 make it a better car? Or that the Honda outsells the 3series make it better? Does volume relate to bestness? What happens when and if the G35 becomes as common as Acuras? Or do I daresay BMWs. Then do those who don't like "dime-a-dozen" automobiles move from Infiniti on to the next brand? Or was this dime-a-dozen thing all rhetoric?