Thanks everyone for your input on my brake issue. I still am not sure what to do with the dealer though. My warrantee just expired -- so am I now to pay for rotor turning (or replacing) every 17,000 miles? I have tried emailing Subaru directly, but have not received a response yet.
Background reminder - the moonroof would drop down(and close, too), but not retract.
I took it in and left it all day, as requested. I didn't even talk to the mechanic when I picked it up, having wasted enough time making two trips out there, but was told by another employee that the bracket attached to the glass was a little out of adjustment. If I'm reading the print-out correctly, they're billing Subaru for 24 minutes.
All's well that end's well. That was Thursday. Saturday I received a letter from the dealer telling me that I would get a survey soon and to be sure and call the dealer first if I had any complaints about the warranty work.
How much do I get paid for using my time to fill out another form? Close your eyes, what do you see? I know, I know. It's important - to them
Stopped by the dealer Thursday afternoon and was able to show them the problem in action. Dropped the car back at the dealer Fri and had a call 2 hours later, they are going to replace the throttle position sensor but it will take 3/4 days to get the part. So I'm driving the car with the bouncing idle until then.
At least they are seem to be looking in the right direction, Blaming it on a tune up just didn't feel right to me.
I had the front rotors on my 2001 LLBean turned at 10K due to shake and noise. Subaru replaced them (and the front pads) at 23K (now have 25K). They said the rotors had "hot spots" - a manufacturer's defect - areas where the metal was different, and therefore wore differently... Who knows? I think it may be a design issue - they don't seem to like stopping 3750 lbs. (plus passenger/cargo weight) at 80 mph off an exit ramp.
The rotten egg odor and bad mileage tale of woe yet goes on. SoA had me drive to a dealership 50 miles away to meet with their Regional Operations Manager on 6/10. He replaced the front O2 sensor and spark plugs. For a week, the car seemed a little better. In the second week it got worse and worse. I'm up to 20.7 mpg mixed 50/50 city/highway driving, which I guess is better than the 10 - 16 mpg I was getting six months ago when all this started. It's still not the 24 mpg I was used to with my 2001. The rotten egg odor is actually getting worse.
The score so far: (8) trips to various dealers for service (27) days in the shop since I received the car in October Over $400 in lost wages 128 gallons more fuel used than my previous 2001 Forester (at current prices, about $180) New catalytic converter, O2 sensor, and spark plugs
Still not fixed.
I have another call in to Subaru, but everyone I know is telling me to throw in the towel and go the Lemon Law route. Although I hate the idea, after 6 months of trying I'm running out of options. I can't keep putting in this effort while the car slowly poisons my family.
Thanks for the thought, but I didn't have this problem with my 2001. I expect the converter would have "broken in" after 6400 miles on the first one, or 2100 miles on this one. Since the problem comes and goes, it's more likely from excess unburned fuel hitting the converter. That's sort of born out by the weak gas mileage.
My 86 Subaru GL Hatch back, standard trans, runs fine when cold, but at running temp, loses power (drastically) on even minor inclines. We've replaced the carb, done full tune up and had it to a number of repair shops - each with a different idea of the problem. We've not yet replace the catalytic converter - only 2 out of 7 repair shops thought it would help and at $350 it's a little pricy for an experiment. Anyone else experienced this problem?
After rotating my tires I have noticed a very subtle (but OCD annoying) noise from I think my right front wheel. It isn't even so much a noise as it is something I feel through the steering when and or brake pedal. It is like running over small tar strips in the pavement. Perhaps more noticeable when making a left turn and braking. Not always there just at low speeds. I have put about 2k miles on since the rotate. Could it be tire noise or maybe rotor? I torqued the wheels to spec.
My '87 Chevy Sprint 1.0 Liter 3cyl developed a clogged catalytic converter. Going from 47hp to 0hp doesn't seem like a lot, but it's HUGE for an engine that needs all it can get.
Basically, you'd be driving along just fine, and then slowly your speed would decrease and the exhaust note would slowly silence. Pulling over for a few minutes (to allow it to cool a bit) would help, but it did get replaced soon after that.
It could be the cat, but a clogged cat would usually be clogged all the time, and would thus deliver poor power all the time. It shouldn't be hard for them to test that in the car, as the exhaust flow would be lower than it should be. In the worst case scenario, removing the cat for inspection should resolve whether it's clogged or not. This problem is very visible when you look inside it.
It could also be a pinhole leak in a head gasket; also very checkable with a compression gauge. The fanciest version of this is a leak down test. It's a gauge with several hoses that checks all the cylinders at once for leaks when they're under pressure. I had a similar problem with an old Volvo that drove me nuts trying to track it down. It would work fine, then no power, then fine again.
Hope this helps.
A clogged fuel and or air filter could also be the problem, but I'm assuming you're way beyond the "simple fix" stage of diagnosis.
I am getting different signals about when the timing belt should be replaced on the 98 Outback with 2.5L engine. The dealer said the interval has been changed to 105,000, but other still say 60,000.
I am getting different signals about when the timing belt should be replaced on my 98 Outback (with 2.5L engine). The dealer said the interval has been changed to 105,000, but others still say 60,000.
2.5L DOHC is 60k inspection and 90k replacement. considering the labor of inspect and the cost of the belt itself vs. repairing bent valves and gouged pistons, I'd recommend you just replace it at 60k if it looks at all worn.
Timing belt replacement is at 105K for newer Subarus. The 60K number you're hearing from dealers is a combination of habit, conservatism and wanting to make extra money.
Habit -- Older Subarus had 60K change intervals. From what I hear, they failed pretty much on schedule.
Conservatism -- As Colin wrote, it's cheap maintenance compared to the potential damage to your engine should it fail. The maintenance schedule in your owner's manual is a minimal set of requirements based on ideal driving conditions.
Extra money -- Based on the above and a lack of any additional knowledge, many owners simply let the dealer do what they say is required.
My suggestion: Have the dealer inspect the belt at 60K and replace at 90K. Replace immediately at any time the belt looks worn.
I can see where it would seem that it was a coincidence about the hot weather, but it has happened time and time again. Never in the spring, fall or winter, and never when the car is in the garage. But once summer rolls around, and the car is left in a hot parking lot, it happens frequently. And that's JUST when you don't want to be stuck.
Ah, but you see, you had to drive it to that parking lot, right? So the issue may not be the sun but engine heat in general + summer ambient temperatures.
What if you left the car for overnight and then let the sun shine on it (with cold engine underneath)?
Have you ever experienced a no start with the engine not running for 24 hours and left in the sun?
My problem with accepting your theory is that I do not see how the heat of the sun alone could cause this. I'm not saying absolutely you are misdiagnosing, I'm just extremely skeptical at this point without some solid field testing of the problem.
I've experienced this before in other cars. It was always the alternator. But it won't happen from just sitting in the sun...if the engine is hot and it sits in a hot summer sun for while, then it happens. When I let the car cool off for a few hours, it would start again.
I agree with Ken. I just received a mailing from a dealer stating that timing belts should be changed at 60k. However, both the Maintenance Booklet and the Service Manual for the 2000 Legacy/Outback state 105k. I was just thinking of changing mine a bit earlier (like 90k).
I am also thinking of changing my spark plugs a bit earlier at 50k rather than 60k.
Duh! I'm believing the dealer (yeah, I feel kinda stupid) but they said it doesn't need changing until 60k. I'll let you guys know when I change them if they're platinum.
Isn't wierd that your dealer would try to recommend service LATER than manufacturer recommendations?
One of my local dealers was trying to push spark plug replacement every 15K miles on my 2K Legacy...until I pointed out Subaru specs in my manual. Then they backed off.
I recently hit 15K on my Legacy and priced around for the appropriate service. I live in Utah, which by default qualifies me for the severe service schedule because of salt and extreme temps. According to Subaru I should have my tranny, brake, and diffy fluids replaced every 15K. No dealer seemed to understand that, though. I had to insist on the fluids being replaced (cheap insurance to prevent expensive repairs IMHO) during the service. It pays to know the manual, because apparantly the dealers don't.
Affected by states for the following reason. In California only, emission equipment is required to be warranted for 100,000 miles (60k elswhere I believe). Because the timing belt is considered by California to be part of the emission system it must also last to 100k. Why the 105k I don't know - perhaps they just extended it to coincide with another major service interval.
Not speaking specifically for any manufacturer, I know that the same timing belt goes on all models sold in the US as it would be ludicrous to find a way to be sure that somehow timing belts installed on vehicles that eventually sold in California were the "higher grade" belts. Most cars built in the last 5 years are "50 State" cars, meaning they are certified to be sold in any state. For a time, some mfrs did build different emissions for CA, but they quickly realized it was cheaper to build all to CA's higher standards. Of course if you live in Kansas and the belt fails at 104k you'll pay for it, and if you live in California the factory will, but the belt is designed for 105k. Personally, I will run my belt to the California mileage even though I live in Idaho, though I will personally inspect it at some point prior. If I were the type who constantly towed, raced, or otherwise stressed my engine I would not do this.
General comment on intervals - read your owner's manuals. Dealers are generally reputable but they'll gladly sell you all kinds of extra work. So you can pay yourself perhaps $500 for the 15 minutes it takes to read the maintenance schedule by avoiding the extra work the dealer "recommends".
Finally, a question. I was told the 2.2L engine in my '97 is a non-interference engine, meaning that a broken timing belt will not allow the pistons and valves to hit as a result. I was at the same time told that ALL Subaru engines are this way. Can someone clear this up for me and others on the board? Thanks.
John- On my last dealer visit, Subaru tech line advised to try different gas (Exxon mid grade) and an additive from BG products. This has not worked either. Throttle position sensor sounds interesting. My car does exactly what yours does, so I'm dying to see if that works.......
Pre '00 they made "CA Emissions cars" and "non-CA emissions cars" there were 2 distinct belts put in these cars a 60K and a 100K one. After '00 they switched over and made em all 100K belts.
I'm also intested. I don't believe the hesitation problems I've experienced are as bad as the problems you have desribed, but maybe its related?
I've just started to experiment with differnt gas (grades, brands and locations) I live on the boarder between MN and WI. Gas is about $.10 cheaper per gallon in MN, but I believe has more ethanol and other additives?? (gas tax is the reason for the price difference...) So far I have noticed some performance difference.
Mike: the 2.5 SOHC is 2000 models and newer right??
2.5 SOHC is in: '99->'02 2.5RS 2.5 SOHC is in: '00->'02 Legacies and Outbacks 2.5 DOHC is in: '96->'99 Legacy GT and Outbacks 2.5 DOCH is in: '98 2.5RS
For those interested, It was apparently pretty easy to check since I had a fairly quick response from the dealer (after the innefective coil/wires/plugs replacement). On the service invoice it is listed as
Defective T/P/S switch 1.06volt idle 3.62V open
The part hasn't come in yet, I'll post the results when it does and I've had the car a few days.
I too tried the different brands/grade of gas routine, but to no avail.
I thought the timing belt change went with the cam change (DOHC -> SOHC) on the 2.5, no?
By the way, someone was asking on one of these boards about dyno graphs for the SOHC engine. While I've not seen one of these, I do know that it's making 155 ft lbs at 2800 rpm. Discounting any spots where the curve might dip a bit (not likely given how smooth it pulls IMHO), and doing a little math with the published numbers, that means it's making 93% of peak torque or better between 2800 and 5600 rpm.
I have this from a friendly district factory rep I met at the auto show some years ago when we were shopping, and the SOHC was relatively new.
On most cars, it is pretty common for the efficiency of the A/C system to be a function of engine/road speed. Your car is a very dynamic environment. Here you change the compressor speed, the velocity of airflow thru the condensor & engine compartment temperature when you stop verses go fast.
I could write you a few pages describing the BTU transfer process, but maybe another day. The problems come down to: 1) decreased air flow limits removal of heat at the condensor ('radiator' in front of radiator). 2) compressor pump works inefficiently at low RPM. 3) high temp freon returning to the compressor cannot be completely converted back to the liquid state. 4) expansion valve on evaporator (core in your dash) cranks wide open, but cannot achieve max BTU exchange (liquid to gas conversion). Air output from registers is cool but not cold.
Why would the alternator keep the car from starting? It would keep it from cranking by running the battery down, but not from starting. An ignition system doesn't need a lot of current to fire spark plugs--if the engine cranks, that's enough juice to start the car as well.
My understanding of the poster's problem is that it cranks and cranks but won't start after being in the sun.
I took my '01 Forester (30K miles) in to Flemington Subaru last night so they could check for clutch chatter when cold. The last two times I brought it in, they couldn't duplicate it, so I had to leave it overnight. Anyway, they called this afternoon to say that the clutch was "shot" and they ordered the entire clutch assembly. (The service writer that called said he thought that the springs were bad, but he wasn't sure. I'll speak to the tech and get the scoop when I pick it up.)
They offered to pay for a rental, and even had Enterprise come to my house to pick me up and bring me to their office. Very convenient. Anyway, I hope that this will solve the chattering condition, and I'll share any info with the group when I get it back.
with my first Honda Accord (1976, with a serial # under 6000!), I had a similar problem.
It seems, back then, if I shut the Honda down in hot weather, and then tried to start the car again, say within 5 -10 minutes, it would not start. It turned out that gas in the carb float bowl would start to boil, and somehow bubble over and flood the carb. I would have to put the gas peddle to the floor, hold it there, and crank until it started. Often that took quite some time.
Could it be, even though you have fuel injection, that something like that is occurring? Is it possible to "flood" a fuel injection system?
That was a really common problem back in the '60s & '70s. I had that on several cars, most severely on a Renault 16. I wouldn't THINK this could happen with fuel injection, but I've been wrong a time or two before. :-)
Not really very easy to flood a FI car and nearly impossible to experience vapor lock due to the pressure in FI systems.
Once again on your Honda is wasn't the sun that did it, it was the "heat sink" effect of shutting down a very warm engine (which continues to heat up even though not running).
I still think this problem is electrical and related to engine heat, wherein a substandard electrical part is dying under the stress of engine heat and recovering when it cools down.
Thanks for the info. I have a rattling/vibrating noise in the dash now too. Its always had a soft "rattle" when the a/c is on since I've had the car but today it seemed like I had a little motorcycle racing in there! I thought a Hog was next to me at first! I was actually on my way to the dealer to pick up some parts I had ordered so I had the service manager listen. Of course it wouldn't make the noise when I was there! He was too busy to come for a drive and I was in a hurry anyway to pick the kids up. I had been told once I might have an expansion valve problem.I will leave it with them when my next oil change is due in few weeks.Hope the ac keeps running though, its been over 90 most days! Time to get my moneys worth from my extended warranty!
Just returned from a trip to Las Vegas. Drove 80 - 90 MPH and got about 24 MPG across the desert. Temp was 116 one day and A/C ran full bore. While at a light one day a loud grinding rattle started. Thought it was car along side but it turned out to be fan. After an hr or so the noise changed to a fluttering sound. Took it to dealer the next day and they found a cash register receipt in fan. All was OK for about 24 hrs and then a very high pitched noise started. Could hardly stand to be in the car. After awhile it changed to the fluttering noise again. Back to dealer. Though maybe they had not gotten all the paper out the first time. They found more receipts in fan and discovered that with the glove box closed the fan (on high) was sucking paper out of the glove compartment and into the recirculate air duct which was right behind it. Moral of story is don't put light paper items in glove compartment unless weighed down by something heavy. Perhaps a screen should be installed over the duct opening too. The car is a 2001 Outback VDC wagon. I imagine that the same could happen to all the legacy models. Not sure about the impreza's.
Comments
I took it in and left it all day, as requested. I didn't even talk to the mechanic when I picked it up, having wasted enough time making two trips out there, but was told by another employee that the bracket attached to the glass was a little out of adjustment. If I'm reading the print-out correctly, they're billing Subaru for 24 minutes.
All's well that end's well. That was Thursday. Saturday I received a letter from the dealer telling me that I would get a survey soon and to be sure and call the dealer first if I had any complaints about the warranty work.
How much do I get paid for using my time to fill out another form? Close your eyes, what do you see? I know, I know. It's important - to them
John
Stopped by the dealer Thursday afternoon and was able to show them the problem in action.
Dropped the car back at the dealer Fri and had a call 2 hours later, they are going to replace the throttle position sensor but it will take 3/4 days to get the part. So I'm driving the car with the bouncing idle until then.
At least they are seem to be looking in the right direction, Blaming it on a tune up just didn't feel right to me.
John
I have to slow down one of these years.
Otherwise, car has been flawless.
Ralph
-juice
The score so far:
(8) trips to various dealers for service
(27) days in the shop since I received the car in October
Over $400 in lost wages
128 gallons more fuel used than my previous 2001 Forester (at current prices, about $180)
New catalytic converter, O2 sensor, and spark plugs
Still not fixed.
I have another call in to Subaru, but everyone I know is telling me to throw in the towel and go the Lemon Law route. Although I hate the idea, after 6 months of trying I'm running out of options. I can't keep putting in this effort while the car slowly poisons my family.
Over in the Toyota threads....the rotten egg odor disappears when the cat coverter is fully "broken-in".
bit
I had a cat go on my '81 Mustang, and that's what it felt like.
Bit: maybe put that FR tire on the RR, and see if it changes?
-juice
Cat broke down....and clogged up the exhaust pipes (and the cat was rattling also)
Basically, you'd be driving along just fine, and then slowly your speed would decrease and the exhaust note would slowly silence. Pulling over for a few minutes (to allow it to cool a bit) would help, but it did get replaced soon after that.
-Brian
It could be the cat, but a clogged cat would usually be clogged all the time, and would thus deliver poor power all the time. It shouldn't be hard for them to test that in the car, as the exhaust flow would be lower than it should be. In the worst case scenario, removing the cat for inspection should resolve whether it's clogged or not. This problem is very visible when you look inside it.
It could also be a pinhole leak in a head gasket; also very checkable with a compression gauge. The fanciest version of this is a leak down test. It's a gauge with several hoses that checks all the cylinders at once for leaks when they're under pressure. I had a similar problem with an old Volvo that drove me nuts trying to track it down. It would work fine, then no power, then fine again.
Hope this helps.
A clogged fuel and or air filter could also be the problem, but I'm assuming you're way beyond the "simple fix" stage of diagnosis.
the timing belt should be replaced on the
98 Outback with 2.5L engine. The dealer said
the interval has been changed to 105,000, but
other still say 60,000.
DB
the timing belt should be replaced on my
98 Outback (with 2.5L engine). The dealer said
the interval has been changed to 105,000, but
others still say 60,000.
DB
-Colin
105K replacement on my OBS and wife's OB (although she had hers replaced during a crank/cam shaft reseal).
-Dennis
Habit -- Older Subarus had 60K change intervals. From what I hear, they failed pretty much on schedule.
Conservatism -- As Colin wrote, it's cheap maintenance compared to the potential damage to your engine should it fail. The maintenance schedule in your owner's manual is a minimal set of requirements based on ideal driving conditions.
Extra money -- Based on the above and a lack of any additional knowledge, many owners simply let the dealer do what they say is required.
My suggestion: Have the dealer inspect the belt at 60K and replace at 90K. Replace immediately at any time the belt looks worn.
Ken
-mike
What if you left the car for overnight and then let the sun shine on it (with cold engine underneath)?
Have you ever experienced a no start with the engine not running for 24 hours and left in the sun?
My problem with accepting your theory is that I do not see how the heat of the sun alone could cause this. I'm not saying absolutely you are misdiagnosing, I'm just extremely skeptical at this point without some solid field testing of the problem.
Jon
I am also thinking of changing my spark plugs a bit earlier at 50k rather than 60k.
Jim
One of my local dealers was trying to push spark plug replacement every 15K miles on my 2K Legacy...until I pointed out Subaru specs in my manual. Then they backed off.
I recently hit 15K on my Legacy and priced around for the appropriate service. I live in Utah, which by default qualifies me for the severe service schedule because of salt and extreme temps. According to Subaru I should have my tranny, brake, and diffy fluids replaced every 15K. No dealer seemed to understand that, though. I had to insist on the fluids being replaced (cheap insurance to prevent expensive repairs IMHO) during the service. It pays to know the manual, because apparantly the dealers don't.
Ty
Not speaking specifically for any manufacturer, I know that the same timing belt goes on all models sold in the US as it would be ludicrous to find a way to be sure that somehow timing belts installed on vehicles that eventually sold in California were the "higher grade" belts. Most cars built in the last 5 years are "50 State" cars, meaning they are certified to be sold in any state. For a time, some mfrs did build different emissions for CA, but they quickly realized it was cheaper to build all to CA's higher standards. Of course if you live in Kansas and the belt fails at 104k you'll pay for it, and if you live in California the factory will, but the belt is designed for 105k. Personally, I will run my belt to the California mileage even though I live in Idaho, though I will personally inspect it at some point prior. If I were the type who constantly towed, raced, or otherwise stressed my engine I would not do this.
General comment on intervals - read your owner's manuals. Dealers are generally reputable but they'll gladly sell you all kinds of extra work. So you can pay yourself perhaps $500 for the 15 minutes it takes to read the maintenance schedule by avoiding the extra work the dealer "recommends".
Finally, a question. I was told the 2.2L engine in my '97 is a non-interference engine, meaning that a broken timing belt will not allow the pistons and valves to hit as a result. I was at the same time told that ALL Subaru engines are this way. Can someone clear this up for me and others on the board? Thanks.
IdahoDoug
On my last dealer visit, Subaru tech line advised to try different gas (Exxon mid grade) and an additive from BG products. This has not worked either. Throttle position sensor sounds interesting. My car does exactly what yours does, so I'm dying to see if that works.......
As for interference/non interference:
Interference:
2.5l DOHC (OB, 2.5RS, 2.5Legacy GT)
3.3l DOHC (SVX)
2.0l DOHC (WRX)
Non Interference:
1.8l
2.7l
2.2l
2.5l SOHC (OB, 2.5RS, Legacy)
Unsure:
3.0l DOHC (VDC, LL Bean)* This one uses a chain, so I'm not sure it's applicable
-mike
I've just started to experiment with differnt gas (grades, brands and locations) I live on the boarder between MN and WI. Gas is about $.10 cheaper per gallon in MN, but I believe has more ethanol and other additives?? (gas tax is the reason for the price difference...) So far I have noticed some performance difference.
Mike: the 2.5 SOHC is 2000 models and newer right??
--Jay
2.5 SOHC is in: '00->'02 Legacies and Outbacks
2.5 DOHC is in: '96->'99 Legacy GT and Outbacks
2.5 DOCH is in: '98 2.5RS
-mike
Defective T/P/S switch 1.06volt idle 3.62V open
The part hasn't come in yet, I'll post the results when it does and I've had the car a few days.
I too tried the different brands/grade of gas routine, but to no avail.
FWIW, the Forester uses the same engine as the 2.5l in the Impreza for all years.
We had Darlene confirm, it's 90k inspect, 105k replace. Given they'll already be at it, I'll just change it at 90k.
-juice
-mike
-juice
By the way, someone was asking on one of these boards about dyno graphs for the SOHC engine. While I've not seen one of these, I do know that it's making 155 ft lbs at 2800 rpm. Discounting any spots where the curve might dip a bit (not likely given how smooth it pulls IMHO), and doing a little math with the published numbers, that means it's making 93% of peak torque or better between 2800 and 5600 rpm.
I have this from a friendly district factory rep I met at the auto show some years ago when we were shopping, and the SOHC was relatively new.
I could write you a few pages describing the BTU transfer process, but maybe another day. The problems come down to:
1) decreased air flow limits removal of heat at the condensor ('radiator' in front of radiator).
2) compressor pump works inefficiently at low RPM.
3) high temp freon returning to the compressor cannot be completely converted back to the liquid state.
4) expansion valve on evaporator (core in your dash) cranks wide open, but cannot achieve max BTU exchange (liquid to gas conversion). Air output from registers is cool but not cold.
Hope this helps,
Steve
My understanding of the poster's problem is that it cranks and cranks but won't start after being in the sun.
They offered to pay for a rental, and even had Enterprise come to my house to pick me up and bring me to their office. Very convenient. Anyway, I hope that this will solve the chattering condition, and I'll share any info with the group when I get it back.
Len
It seems, back then, if I shut the Honda down in hot weather, and then tried to start the car again, say within 5 -10 minutes, it would not start. It turned out that gas in the carb float bowl would start to boil, and somehow bubble over and flood the carb. I would have to put the gas peddle to the floor, hold it there, and crank until it started. Often that took quite some time.
Could it be, even though you have fuel injection, that something like that is occurring? Is it possible to "flood" a fuel injection system?
Bob
:-)
Ross
Once again on your Honda is wasn't the sun that did it, it was the "heat sink" effect of shutting down a very warm engine (which continues to heat up even though not running).
I still think this problem is electrical and related to engine heat, wherein a substandard electrical part is dying under the stress of engine heat and recovering when it cools down.
-Brian
-mike
Had the wife's OB in for 60K service. They even put you in a rental for the major services no matter where you bought the car.
They did a fine job on my last round of clutch problems.
-Dennis
Dennis: maybe it's the seat track? Since it didn't rattle when someone was sitting in it.
Or maybe there's light paper in the glove compartment! Holy cow, Smokey! ;-)
-juice