Get an upgraded pressureplate and clutch setup from Paul Eklund @ Primitive Offroad. He is a subaru expert. I bought my 6-puck copper racing clutch, pressure plate, throwout bearing, and pilot bearing setup with shipping for $400. The non racing clutches are usually around $300 for a complete setup. Paul is a great guy too.
Typically, you'll want to replace the clutch disk, pressure plate and throwout bearing when you replace the clutch. The flywheel can be resurfaced to save you some money.
Thanks for the info. The dealer has quoted a price of $500 for the clutch disk, pressure plate, throwout bearing, and flywheel. I asked about resurfacing the flywheel and they said that it can't be done. Does the price sound right?
Thanks again
Kevin
P.S. I checked out Primitive Offroad and it looks like the total w/flywheel would be more than $500. I did a quick check for clutch kits on the web and w/o flywheel they are about $160...Are flywheels that expensive??
I talked with my local dealer about this. You can, technically, resurface the flywheel, but it's not recommended. They explained that the margin of error is VERY small for the engagement, and resurfacing the flywheel could change that engagement and cause problems later. They charge about $220 for a new Subaru-manufactured flywheel.
It sounds like the most you can hope for is that your flywheel is still in decent shape. You won't know until it's physically inspected, though. You haven't mentioned how many miles you have, but with a '98 I'm guessing there's enough mileage to justify a new flywheel.
I dropped my car off for the 30K service @ Fleminton Subaru tonight. I mentioned the clutch chatter problem (I've been noticing it a bit lately, especially after some people have mentioned it here.The power of suggestion, perhaps?) I told them it only happens when first starting out with the car and once warmed up it is fine. The younger staff member in the service department quickly said that happens on all Subaru's. The older person(Don) qickly stepped in and said that should NOT be happening. Off the cuff, without looking at the vehicle, he said it could be the Clutch pressure plate. He said it could be warped, which may cause the problem. They are going to take a look tomorrow to see if they can find anything. He did say that to replace the pressure plate would be $140 for the parts. If I understood him correctly he said the rest of the repairs, flywheel and such, would be covered under the 5year/60k powertrain warranty. My question is this: If it is the presure plate, does it pay to replace it now, or do as the service tech said, and wait until it gets worse or closer to the 5yr/60K mark? I would not hesitate because of the cost, I just want to know if it should get done now, or wait until closer to the end of the service warranty.
You're in the hands of a good dealer. Please talk to Diane and ask her if the pressure plate could be resulting damage. She can call me if she needs to.
Thanks for the research Ty, that is a big help. My clutch problem began with about 50K miles, so after reading Mark's message I'm wondering if at least the flywheel may be covered by the 5yr/60K warranty. That would cut the cost in half.
Patti, do you know the answer? I know that the clutch pressure plate and disk would not be covered at 50K, but is the flywheel?
Thanks Patti! I have been talking with Joe, but I will pass along the message to Diane.
Actually the dealer just called. It seems my alignment is out of whack, causing me to replace 2 tires. I will replace all 4, just not sure which ones and from who yet. I'm leaning towards the Michelin Pilot A/S. Tire rack has them for $155 a piece. That combined with the 30K service-looking at close to $1K. Not something I was looking forward to at this time. (-:
First the 30K service includes changing the Tranny and differential fluids (that's why I wanted the redline), radiator flush, LOF, changing spark plugs, bleed the brakes, basically check over the whole car. I figured it's worth it. Plus, in the end because I am supplying the oils and have the AAA discount it s/b closer to $300. BTW, that 10% AAA discount applies to the tires as well.
That's cool. We could have had an installfest to do the fluids, brakes, spark plugs. But I guess that it's easier to keep records by going to the dealer. I was amazingly suprised at how easy the diffy and tranny was to do.
I need your advice. I just spent some time perusing the Legacy Outback board and discovered that my clutch shudder, apparently, is not an isolated occurrence. My clutch shudder appeared before my 3/36K warranty was up and I reported it to the dealer as a "vibration", which they said they could not replicate. I might have missed my opportunity to have it replaced then. Do you know if this is a problem that has been creeping up with Outback's? Do I have any recourse other than paying for a new clutch and flywheel? On top of that, those with this problem who have had their clutch/flywheel replaced seem to report that the problem persists. Sounds like a fundamental problem with the clutch design. Is this even fixable?
Just wanted to fill you in on what is happening. 1)As was expected, the dealer could not replicate the problem with the clutch chatter. He sadi he will make a note of it in the record, for future reference. 2)The dealer's supplier told him that Michelin no longer makes the Pilot XGHT4; that it is being replaced with the tire called "Symmetry". After checking with Costco (who can get it for $118/tire installed) I decided to call Michelin customer support. They told me that the Pilot is still being manufactured, as well that the Symmetry should not be used on the Outback. It does not meet the speed requirements that the Pilot series does!
What a day!
Kevin-The service tech yesterday told me that the clutch chatter, if caused by a warped pressure plate, should be covered under the 5yr/60K powertrain warranty. Maybe that can help you out?
I bought a used Impeza in January from Russell Subaru and shortly after began having problems. The ' Check Engine Light ' comes on, the speedometer stops working and the car surges. The dealer has tried several times to repair it without success and is unwilling to work with me towards another vehicle. I have left numerous messages for Susan Hoph at Subaru of America and have yet to have recieved a return call.
the Symmetry is an S rated tire and the Pilot XGT H4 is well, H rated! The H rated " non Pilot" XGT is no longer made but the V and Z still are. If you go to Costco, check out the RE930 Potenza. Its out of production too but has great reviews at Tirerack. Been replaced by the RE950 which did better than the Pilot XGT H4 in Tirerack tests except a little noisier
After five times visiting Delray Subaru, they fixed the problem. It was not the tire pressure. It was an alignment problem as I had the tires checked by Bridgstone. When I left after the 5th time the service tech would not talk to me, but the service manager told me the problem was fixed and it no longer drifted. I had another problem with this station wagon recently. MY keyless entry system would not work. After visiting Lacey Subaru in Catskill NY, they couldn't find the answer to the problem. My wife suggested that I switch remotes. That remote worked without any problem. I put a new battery in my remote and it seems to be working. So if your system doesn't work try a new battery, it may save you a trip to the dealer. The only thing is why didn't the dealer think of it.
Mark- What about the Pirelli P6000 Sport Veloce - I think they cost under $100. Many many moons ago, someone at another board had them on on his '98 OB (IIRC) and was pretty satisfied with it. His ony grip was that it is 'noisy' on uneven/rough paved roads, but I doubt that would be noticeable on the '00 OB with added insulation.
My 03 Forester manual transmission comes with a Hill Holder feature, which is causing me problems!! It engages on a flat surface, particularly in reverse. Not everytime, though, only about a third of the time I am starting up. I must press the gas pedal harder to over ride it. THis is particularly pronounced when backing out of a parking space with the wheels turned. I took it to the dealer service dept. and the head mechanic said there is no adjustment possible in the 03 Hill Holder, and he said nothing is wrong with it. Is this a design problem? Or is something actually WRONG with mine, that it kicks in even when there is no incline? Sometimes I stall because the car will not move right away, and it feels as if the parking brake is on. I am upset.I don't know what to do. I am trying to get used to it, but it is making me hate my car!! Misty
Gee, RS, that can't be right, can it? That would have to get the Silly Award for engineering if the hill holder engaged every time you pressed in the clutch and brake regardless of the level the car is on.
Hill Holder is a very old idea and was used a lot on Studebakers. There was a sprag setup of sorts ( I think--haven't looked at one in quite some time) that would engage and hold the car but only when the car started to roll backwards. It would never engage on the level or if the car was tilted forward. Bentley had a similar setup in the 50s but it was about 100 X more complicated.
to prevent the car from rolling backwards, when going uphill. So if you're on a hill with the nose of the car facing downhill, it won't have any effect.
That being the case, if you're on a hill, with the nose facing downhill—and you want to BACK UP the hill, I would assume it would act like a normal clutch. '03 Forester 5-speed owners, am I correct?
Not that this really means anything regarding the 03 Frorester but the hill holder on my 1949 Studebaker PU sometimes engages on flat ground. It is as Bob said when I am rolling backwards and engage the clutch and brake at the same time. But now that I think about it that doesn't even make sense. Good reason to take the Stude for a ride today.
I had the hill holder feature on my 87 Subaru GL. It rarely worked but it works with a vengeance on my 2003 X Forester. Works great on a hill. Doesn't work when the nose is downhill (manual says that). It does grab sometimes when parked on level ground. I have stalled several times because of it while trying to go in reverse. I look at it as something to get used to.
Dave- Thanks for the heads up on the Pirelli's. I stopped in to talk to Mike's friend at SI dealer(Mark). He suggested the Dunlop 5000 or A2's, although he said he would give me a better answer today.
The more I look, the more I get confused. Tirerack gave the A2's a good review, but said users say it usually oinly lasts 20K miles or so. So, do I go for something that I will have to replace in another 1.5 years, or something that will last longer? I guess I would categorize myself as an agressive driver. I also do take the OB on dirt roads (Pine Barrens). I want an all-season tire that will handle responsively. I am leaning towards the Michelin Pilot XGTH4. My question to those who have them- are they worth the extra $$?
Ewww, that's no good, a hill holder working on level ground. That could drive a person to distraction. I don't remember my Studebaker ever doing that but perhaps it did. I was paying attention to all the other problems I guess.
Since you are an agressive driver, I'd stick with non-michelins only because I feel they are good but wear is slow and although they wear slowly, when you get to the lower levels of rubber they don't handle as well as new. In other words I rather get a cheaper tire that wears out in 20K miles than a more expensive tire that lasts for 80K miles.
I agree with Mike. If you're the aggressive type who wears out front tire outer edges way before other areas of the tire need replacing then go with cheaper tires. The benefits of higher quality tires often include a little better wear but my experience is this is incremental, not orders of magnitude.
You probably know this already, but it's worth noting that aggressive driving counterbalanced by aggressive tire rotation and pressure checking can pay dividends in longer life.
On the other hand, Michelin has an excellent tire wear warranty on some of their tires though it only contributes to another set of Michelins.
Due to some excellent information gleaned here on the boards, I was able to to a used Legacy home for my Mother a couple weeks ago. We wanted to avoid the added cost and tow weight of a full trailer, preferring to rent a dolly from Uhaul. The rear wheels were left on the ground, the rear drive shaft was removed completely and everything hooked up easily upon arrival.
The rear drive shaft removal only required about 15 minutes, which included the thin heat shield above it. On first glance, it looks like you have to remove the heavy structure that encloses the shaft, but with onlly a bit of jiggling the shaft will in fact slip through. Using the fuse trick in the 'FWD' box underhood allowed us to drive it around in front wheel drive in this condition and load / unload it on the dolly.
Only one unexpected issue. Turns out Legacies of this year (96/97) don't have steering wheel locks when you remove the ignition key like every other car I've owned. Anyone know why this is so? This provided a bit of drama when I checked the tow out by turning a tight circle or two in my neighborhood before leaving. As a result, you have to tie the steering wheel in the straight ahead position. For about 10 minutes there I thought I'd broken the steering wheel lock until I ran in to the garage and checked my '97 - no lock in it either. Whew!
My friend with a 99 Jetta just took her car to the dealer to fix a window that fell off the track. The said she needed new brakes and charged her $1100. That on top of the fact the car uses a quart of oil every 1000 miles which they say is "normal".
Unless they replaced calipers, she really got hosed on that one. I also can't see why a 33k vehicle would need anything but pads. Didn't VW's warranty cover that - seems like a '99 would still be covered. Yeesh. I need to recalculate all the $$ I've saved over the years by doing virtually all vehicle maintenance myself. Must be over $10k by now judging by things like this.
Picked up winter tires at TireRack's HQ today for the LandCruiser while I'm in the area. Got Michelin Arctic Alpin 4X4s for $119 each including tax! My local tire dealer wanted $165. Now I've got to get them back to Idaho...
So, did you get a chance to check your Dad's Legacy steering wheel lock, Mike? I'm really curious about it now.
I haven't seen the need yet to back up a hill but I speculate that there would be no problem because the nose is downhill and is covered in the manual. It could also be Emerson's law of compensation; like, if you eat cheese cake and drink a diet soda they will cancel each other out.
Not that I know anything, but I found the cited problem intriguing. Looking around I found theis article: www.ravensblade-impreza.com/techdocs/ pdf/transmission/clutch.pdf. Last page speaks of hill holder and specifies that there is a cable which can be used to adjust the tightness of the little clutch used for this feature. Makes sense. Likely a mechanic must adjust it and likely it is trickey to get it *just* right. My guess is that yours is too tight.
Until this year, VW only had a 2-year/24,000-mile bumper-to-bumper warranty. They had a great 10-year/100,000-mile drivetrain warranty, but calipers and rotors wouldn't be covered by that. The new warranties are 5-year/60,000-mile bumper-to-bumper.
VW maintenance concerns are a major reason we bought our Legacy instead of a Passat. The timing belts STILL need to be replaced every 60,000 miles, and VWs seem to have an inordinate number of electrical problems (not covered by the powertrain warranty). Crazy.
Ah, you'd love this one then. It's a '93 we've had since new. Straight 6, solid full-floater discs with coils at both ends, factory f/r lockers and seats 8. At 5000 miles I switched nearly every fluid to synthetic and it's been maintained that way ever since. Great truck - I'll never sell it.
My '94 Golf ate pads and rotors for breakfast. The first replacement of both (MT) was at 32,000 km (~19k miles). In contrast the (AT) Forester still had 75% life left at 30,000 km under similar driving conditions.
Didn't realize they had a front locker on the FZJ80s. There is one of the last few of them (96-97ish?) at my dealer and it's going for like $20K I love them in grey color
Unless you count the Forester as an SUV (and I don't) I have logged more seat time in FZJ80s than in any other SUV. Granted the locales in which I drove them (metro Atlanta and Essex County, NJ) are some of the last places you'd need an LC, but if I found myself in a spot where I required a true SUV that would be my choice.
The only gripe I have with FZJ80s is price and luxury - Toyota should have provided North America with the option of a decontented one along the lines of what juice's dad requisitioned in Brazil and Central America. Along those lines I like the FJ62 a bit better.
Make mine white, with cloth/vinyl seats and an interior you can hose out. Then I can dress in fatigues, wear an Army surplus helmet spray painted blue, stick big black "UN" letters on the doors and have it double as a Halloween costume!
Comments
-mike
Typically, you'll want to replace the clutch disk, pressure plate and throwout bearing when you replace the clutch. The flywheel can be resurfaced to save you some money.
Ken
Thanks for the info. The dealer has quoted a price of $500 for the clutch disk, pressure plate, throwout bearing, and flywheel. I asked about resurfacing the flywheel and they said that it can't be done. Does the price sound right?
Thanks again
Kevin
P.S. I checked out Primitive Offroad and it looks like the total w/flywheel would be more than $500. I did a quick check for clutch kits on the web and w/o flywheel they are about $160...Are flywheels that expensive??
I talked with my local dealer about this. You can, technically, resurface the flywheel, but it's not recommended. They explained that the margin of error is VERY small for the engagement, and resurfacing the flywheel could change that engagement and cause problems later. They charge about $220 for a new Subaru-manufactured flywheel.
It sounds like the most you can hope for is that your flywheel is still in decent shape. You won't know until it's physically inspected, though. You haven't mentioned how many miles you have, but with a '98 I'm guessing there's enough mileage to justify a new flywheel.
Good luck.
Ty
My question is this: If it is the presure plate, does it pay to replace it now, or do as the service tech said, and wait until it gets worse or closer to the 5yr/60K mark? I would not hesitate because of the cost, I just want to know if it should get done now, or wait until closer to the end of the service warranty.
Sorry for the long post.
Mark
Thanks!
Patti
Patti, do you know the answer? I know that the clutch pressure plate and disk would not be covered at 50K, but is the flywheel?
Thanks again to all who have responded.
Kevin
Actually the dealer just called. It seems my alignment is out of whack, causing me to replace 2 tires. I will replace all 4, just not sure which ones and from who yet. I'm leaning towards the Michelin Pilot A/S. Tire rack has them for $155 a piece. That combined with the 30K service-looking at close to $1K. Not something I was looking forward to at this time. (-:
Mark
$155/tire seems a bit stiff IMHO for tires. What size do you take, I'd like to see what other options are out there.
-mike
Thanks again. I also sent Dave an email.
Mark
-mike
Mark
I need your advice. I just spent some time perusing the Legacy Outback board and discovered that my clutch shudder, apparently, is not an isolated occurrence. My clutch shudder appeared before my 3/36K warranty was up and I reported it to the dealer as a "vibration", which they said they could not replicate. I might have missed my opportunity to have it replaced then. Do you know if this is a problem that has been creeping up with Outback's? Do I have any recourse other than paying for a new clutch and flywheel? On top of that, those with this problem who have had their clutch/flywheel replaced seem to report that the problem persists. Sounds like a fundamental problem with the clutch design. Is this even fixable?
Thanks!
Kevin
1)As was expected, the dealer could not replicate the problem with the clutch chatter. He sadi he will make a note of it in the record, for future reference.
2)The dealer's supplier told him that Michelin no longer makes the Pilot XGHT4; that it is being replaced with the tire called "Symmetry". After checking with Costco (who can get it for $118/tire installed) I decided to call Michelin customer support. They told me that the Pilot is still being manufactured, as well that the Symmetry should not be used on the Outback. It does not meet the speed requirements that the Pilot series does!
What a day!
Kevin-The service tech yesterday told me that the clutch chatter, if caused by a warped pressure plate, should be covered under the 5yr/60K powertrain warranty. Maybe that can help you out?
Mark
If you go to Costco, check out the RE930 Potenza. Its out of production too but has great reviews at Tirerack. Been replaced by the RE950 which did better than the Pilot XGT H4 in Tirerack tests except a little noisier
Bob
Mark
What about the Pirelli P6000 Sport Veloce - I think they cost under $100.
Many many moons ago, someone at another board had them on on his '98 OB (IIRC) and was pretty satisfied with it. His ony grip was that it is 'noisy' on uneven/rough paved roads, but I doubt that would be noticeable on the '00 OB with added insulation.
-Dave
My 03 Forester manual transmission comes with a Hill Holder feature, which is causing me problems!! It engages on a flat surface, particularly in reverse. Not everytime, though, only about a third of the time I am starting up. I must press the gas pedal harder to over ride it. THis is particularly pronounced when backing out of a parking space with the wheels turned. I took it to the dealer service dept. and the head mechanic said there is no adjustment possible in the 03 Hill Holder, and he said nothing is wrong with it. Is this a design problem? Or is something actually WRONG with mine, that it kicks in even when there is no incline? Sometimes I stall because the car will not move right away, and it feels as if the parking brake is on. I am upset.I don't know what to do. I am trying to get used to it, but it is making me hate my car!! Misty
That suggests to me, if you bring the car to a "rolling stop," meaning the car is NOT completely stopped, the Hill Holder will/may not engage.
However, this is just an educated guess on my part...
Bob
Hill Holder is a very old idea and was used a lot on Studebakers. There was a sprag setup of sorts ( I think--haven't looked at one in quite some time) that would engage and hold the car but only when the car started to roll backwards. It would never engage on the level or if the car was tilted forward. Bentley had a similar setup in the 50s but it was about 100 X more complicated.
I'd say there is a defect for sure.
That being the case, if you're on a hill, with the nose facing downhill—and you want to BACK UP the hill, I would assume it would act like a normal clutch. '03 Forester 5-speed owners, am I correct?
Bob
bit
Bob
Thanks for the heads up on the Pirelli's. I stopped in to talk to Mike's friend at SI dealer(Mark). He suggested the Dunlop 5000 or A2's, although he said he would give me a better answer today.
The more I look, the more I get confused. Tirerack gave the A2's a good review, but said users say it usually oinly lasts 20K miles or so. So, do I go for something that I will have to replace in another 1.5 years, or something that will last longer?
I guess I would categorize myself as an agressive driver. I also do take the OB on dirt roads (Pine Barrens). I want an all-season tire that will handle responsively. I am leaning towards the Michelin Pilot XGTH4. My question to those who have them- are they worth the extra $$?
Thanks for all the help, and your patience:-)
Mark
Why is that a problem? If the ground is level, the car won't roll whether it has a hill-holder, or not.
Bob
Just my opinion though.
-mike
You probably know this already, but it's worth noting that aggressive driving counterbalanced by aggressive tire rotation and pressure checking can pay dividends in longer life.
On the other hand, Michelin has an excellent tire wear warranty on some of their tires though it only contributes to another set of Michelins.
IdahoDoug (currently in Michigan)
The rear drive shaft removal only required about 15 minutes, which included the thin heat shield above it. On first glance, it looks like you have to remove the heavy structure that encloses the shaft, but with onlly a bit of jiggling the shaft will in fact slip through. Using the fuse trick in the 'FWD' box underhood allowed us to drive it around in front wheel drive in this condition and load / unload it on the dolly.
Only one unexpected issue. Turns out Legacies of this year (96/97) don't have steering wheel locks when you remove the ignition key like every other car I've owned. Anyone know why this is so? This provided a bit of drama when I checked the tow out by turning a tight circle or two in my neighborhood before leaving. As a result, you have to tie the steering wheel in the straight ahead position. For about 10 minutes there I thought I'd broken the steering wheel lock until I ran in to the garage and checked my '97 - no lock in it either. Whew!
IdahoDoug
-mike
bit
-mike
bit
Pads
Rotor Resurfacing
Lets see pads all 4 could be about $150
Rotor Resurfacing about $100
Labor @ $75/hr = $150-$200
So we are talking $500 max.
-mike
Picked up winter tires at TireRack's HQ today for the LandCruiser while I'm in the area. Got Michelin Arctic Alpin 4X4s for $119 each including tax! My local tire dealer wanted $165. Now I've got to get them back to Idaho...
So, did you get a chance to check your Dad's Legacy steering wheel lock, Mike? I'm really curious about it now.
IdahoDoug
-mike
VW maintenance concerns are a major reason we bought our Legacy instead of a Passat. The timing belts STILL need to be replaced every 60,000 miles, and VWs seem to have an inordinate number of electrical problems (not covered by the powertrain warranty). Crazy.
IdahoDoug
Ross
-mike
The only gripe I have with FZJ80s is price and luxury - Toyota should have provided North America with the option of a decontented one along the lines of what juice's dad requisitioned in Brazil and Central America. Along those lines I like the FJ62 a bit better.
Make mine white, with cloth/vinyl seats and an interior you can hose out. Then I can dress in fatigues, wear an Army surplus helmet spray painted blue, stick big black "UN" letters on the doors and have it double as a Halloween costume!
Ed
-mike