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Diesel vs. Gasoline
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Comments
BTW: The fact that Dodge makes 90% of its total power at 1600rpm is irrelevant here. If it wasn't limited and got 500lb.ft like the Powerstroke that percentage would be lower, more like 80%. Would this mean that it got less power? Of course not.
I choose the PSD for mileage and longevity. I have the mpg 17+ around town and 20-21 highway. Hopefully I'll get the other also!
Stanford,
I'm hoping to maybe come out a little ahead after 100,000 miles because of the good mileage I'm getting with the PSD. Now the variables will be fuel cost of gas and diesel. I originally thought that gas would stay higher then diesel. So I'm going to out smart the oil companies and buy the PSD for that good milage.HAHA! Oh well I still think I made the right decision. I do not expect to see low fuel prices too much longer but then again who knows!
Mroffshore
But, in the next month or two, dodge will have a six speed, AUTOMATIC BY ALLISION. It hasn't been confirmed yet but it's almost a done deal. check out www.car-truck.com chrysler edition, for more details.
I can confirm what stanford said although I am getting a little better around town, 17mpg. I live in a rural area but I have some stopping and starting. I also have a 4x4 crew and that is some extra weight.
Mroffshore
I just read your post, and I would like to know what kind of truck you have. I am looking at the F-250 4x4 diesel. I have the F-150 now, and you are getting better fuel mileage than I am, so if the Ford F-250 can achieve the same as your truck I will have the best all around truck.
Thanks.
I have the f250,crew, auto, 3.73 rear, 8ft bed, 4x4, lariat trim, camp and tow pkg. I also added a fiberglass cap by century. The cap is flush with the roof.
Now I will say this, with each passing tank my mileage improved through 4,000 miles or so. I also noticed a slight drop in mileage due to winter diesel. But I can honestly say I get a solid 16.5-17 mpg around town and 20-21 on the highway sometimes a little better on the highway. Quit frankly I'm amazed at the mileage I'm getting. That truck is heavy for sure. Now I can honestly say it paid to get the diesel. That is totally my opinion. I have listened to and discussed since March on this very site all the pros and cons. For me, the diesel will pay for itself with this mileage.
Can my engine be that much better tuned then others? Who knows, I just assumed everyone who bought the power stroke, enjoyed the same good MPG
that I am getting. I'm sure there are other variables but all and all everyone should be close to my mileage. There is probably a problem if there are gross differences.
Hope this helps,
Mroffshore
The Ram is 3.54 and the Ford is 3.73, but the effective ratios are dead equal. Why? The Ford has taller tires - 235/85 and 265/75 over the Dodge's 215/85 and 245/75. Likewise, the Ram's 4.10 and Ford's 4.30 have the same effective ratio. The Ford 4.10 has no Dodge equal - Dodge would have to offer a 3.90 to match it.
Ford doesn't offer the 4.30 with the powerstroke. The 4.30 is available on the v-10. Also, the effective ratios may be the same, but there is the difference in the unhung weight of larger tires and the hung weight of each truck.
mroffshore
I agree. F350 CC 4x4 4.10 auto DRW LWB Lariat trim with cab high fiberglass topper, 14 local 17-18 highway. These are current winter driving conditions.
The other evening I received a call from a 'survey taker'. The survey taker was obviously following a menu on a computer screen. The conversation went something like this.
Hello, I'm taking a survey. May I have a few minutes of your time?
Sure.
May I speak to a licensed driver over the age of 18?
Speaking.
What make of vehicle do you own?
Ford.
What year?
1999.
What model?
F-250.
How often do you buy gasoline?
Never.
(Pause, much furious clicking on the keyboard.)
Hello, I'm taking a .... er.....
May I speak to another licensed driver over the age of 18?
Does this person have to purchase gasoline?
(Finally out of the computer menu script.) Yes, of course, this survey is being taken is funded by a major oil company.
Well, nobody in this house purchases gasoline.
(Very frustrated now.) How can you own vehicles and drive without buying gas?
All the vehicles are diesel.
CLICK
I still chuckle thinking about it.
Rich
my day job is programming those computer surveys
Since I have a Cummins, believe me, I would have pointed that out to the client before finishing the program. I would have asked them either to make the question "fuel" over "gasoline", or add a terminate point if they did not want diesel owners in the survey. But that's from a decade of being in market research...
That furious clicking, by the way, was the interviewer backing up to the beginning because they had no idea what to do with you
I love it!
Mroffshore
I almost fell out of my chair, about the survey. I'm new to the group and was very pleased to see the web page from car and truck about the Allison Transmission for the Dodge. I have plans on getting a 25oo Lb to haul a trailer and have been thinking cummins but have heard bad rumors about the tranny. so maybe by the time I,m ready they will have the allison out. Thanks for all the info. really enjoyed it
Bill
m
If you have something that could use a strong diesel engine to pull it, your decision would be much easier. Your mileage is not that high, and some full size V8 gas engine 4x4 trucks are getting 18 mpg on the highway. Also depends on the price of diesel in your area.
As for the 5.4 engine for the F250, the problem seems to be that Ford chose to stick a higher output version in the F150, leaving the 5.4 in the F250 with a lower output design. That takes a bit of luster off the shine, but is probably a good practical choice.
If you don't need to tow, then the fuel savings of the diesel are pretty much offset by the extra initial cost. If you keep your truck until it has 100K miles or so, the diesel will start really saving you money at the pump (watch out if it ever needs a repair though).
Since you mentioned that you were getting rid of your last vehicle after 1-2 years, a diesel might not be best for you. The 5.4l works well in the F250, the 6.8l gives you a bit more power and better towing manners, offset by higher unloaded fuel costs. Personally, I'd go with the 6.8l and 3.73:1 gears, but you know your situation best.
Having owned a ford diesel for 10 years, I'd buy the cummins dodge motor if I was gonna keep it a long time. If I wasn't going diesel, I would go with a SD or a Silverado.
Be aware that the Ford F250 with the Powerstroke only comes with a six-speed manual. The Dodge comes with the 5 speedd; the 6 speed is now on hold until the 2000 model year - any existing orders for the 6 speed that were already accepted by Dodge will be built as 1999s, but that's all.
As for fuel economy, if you go with the 3.54 axle on the Dodge or the 3.73 on the Ford, you will easily achieve low 20s with either truck, provided you can keep you right foot in check
Comparatively speaking, both engines will do the job. The Cummins may cost a little less in maintenance, since there are two less cylinders to work with, and the Navistar HEUI injection system may be more expensive to maintain or repair down the road.
It will basically come down to the seat-of-the-pants on the decision.
I didn't mention the automatics to jcs because he did mention he wanted the manual in post #292. I agree the Ford 4R100 is probably the best of the bunch, but it's also brand new (only 1 full year old), so its long-term durability is still an unknown. The Allison 1000 6 speed automatic that will be going into Cummins-powered Dodge Rams has also been pushed to the summer - it will probably see duty in the first of the 2000s.
markbuck,
The valva lash on the 24v has been extended to 150,000 miles. The average buyer will probably never do it unless they want to. By comparison, the 12v was at 24K, then every 48K after that.
A factory Cummins shop charges about $100-$150, a Dodge dealer is about $200-$250.
Thanks,
Mac
Rich
considering the 47RE is around a grand, I would expect the Allison to cost anywhere from $1200 to $1500. For the durability, I'd pay it in a heartbeat.
I would appreciate any feedback. I will be making a purchase within a couple of weeks.
If the gm diesel was a good motor, Gm wouldn't be spending all that money, on a all new one, especially when they have to get it from someone else. They know there diesels aren't the greatest. if you buy one you probably will have the common problems, injector pump, valves sticking, and other things that are more rare. If you wan to take a chance go ahead, but cummins is a way more superior to the 6.5. You don't hear to many bad things about the cummins. And when they get that allison 6spd auto in there, it's unstoppable. Think about it, You got rams great looks, one of the best trannies, and the legendary cummins, under the hood. What other truck offers that kind of power,quality, and strength. That why Im buying one when they get the new tranny.
I had always been 'A Chevy Man'. I wanted a diesel in a Chevy wagon. By the time to trade was right, the word was out and the diesel was wrong!
That was the past and too many years ago. The problem and the perception still exists. Now GM builds a significantly lower percentage of the world's vehicles. About the time GM converted their first automotive application diesel they also started this platform thing. A Chevy used to be a Chevy, an Olds used to be a Olds, etc. Now everything is a Chevy. Oh, the others have slightly different crinkles in the sheet metal, different badges, additional sound proofing and a list of different options. Other manufactures do about the same thing, some not as blatant as others but most build a single platform across divisions.
With diesel engines, you design for a diesel from the first eraser put to paper. GM knew better but started with a gas engine block and converted it to diesel. It didn't work. Engines were typically replaced under warranty every 40K miles or so. There were numerous recalls. One of the more infamous recalls was to place a sophisticated washer under an elongated head bolt to prevent the heads from cracking. (Didn't work well.)
All of this did not do the diesel engine in any car any good in the US. For a while, MB even stopped importing them. VW too. Every manufacturer was forced to go to a multi year 100K warranty on the power train.
Over the years GM diesels have achieved near gasoline like reliability. Other manufacturers' diesel engines have achieved reliability in their light duty engines that approaches heavy duty engines. (The Cummins is a really good example of this. The Navistar is almost as good.)
I really liked the suburban but I didn't like the relability of the diesel. Dealers were discouraging about ordering a diesel. Most would order a gasoline version for $100 while it was $2000 to order a diesel version. I would have bought an Expedition but no diesel was available. I settled for a super duty F-250 with 7.3L and no regrets. (I still like my neighbors suburban, though.)
If you like the suburban get it! Get the biggest gasoline engine and low ratio (Economy) rear end. Your mileage won't be too bad. If you are REALLY going to tow a lot, have an auxiliary gear installed in your transmission. (US Gear is one brand.) I know that if I were going to tow a lot, I would avoid the GM diesel. There are many other brands that I just trust MUCH MUCH more.
Rich
Thanks for the comments. That is the type of information I have been looking for.
I was aware of the past problems with the GM diesel being built from a gasoline block, but I was pretty sure they had dropped that bad idea several years ago. The suburban I am looking at is a 99 and I think from what I am hearing on this conference is the stigma of old is still around with GM regarding their diesels.
Anymore comments will be appreciated. I still am not sure which way I will go. It may boil down to the best deal I can get on either the gas or the diesel. Will let you know what I decide to do.
Thanks again, this has been real helpful.
i've never read a magazine report of a suburban, but i know LOTS of folks that own them, and 14-15 is the average report. i've never thought about it, thats just what everyone says. the only folks getting 10 mpg gallon are the ones with the 3/4 ton and 454.
maybe the report you read had a low rear end ratio in it.
A friend had a '84 F-250 with the 6.9 L. His father had a GM pickup with a diesel. I think it was newer than the Ford. I was told this about '87 or '88. The statement was that the GM gave 30%-40% better mileage than the Ford when empty. When towing the Ford gave about 30% better mileage. Both vehicles towed the same horse trailer with the same horses.
I don't know much more details than that. I do know that the son got tickets on the Kansas turnpike for speeding. (When the limit was posted at 80 MPH.) When he came to town it was always gas to the floor or wheels almost locked up. A true binary vehicle operator.
Rich