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You realize (of course) that the term "average" indicates that some pay less....and some pay more. What would be 'wacky' would be if no one paid more than 'average'.
Also, experience tells me that generally some regions are routinely above the national average, just as some are routinely below the national average. Things like different local taxes, distribution costs, etc. have a habit of doing that.
Unless you believe that the "Big Oil" simply doesn't LIKE your region for some obscure reason and is INTENTIONALLY screwing you guys over.
I wonder what the cowards will be gifted next...you get what you pay for.
Someone must have a little nest egg of oil-based investments. So defensive.
Mid range - $2.63 - $2.68
Premium - $2.76 - $2.78
Hmhh we are going to grab a Range Rover in PA later this week maybe we should load up the back of the tow truck with five gallon jugs and get some cheap gas.
Maybe gagrice will get half of his bet right: $2.00 gas by October 1.
I doubt we'll have $40 oil though.
And your explanation is.......? A bunch of suits sitting around a cigar-smoke infested drawing room with a dartboard deciding on what price YOU'LL pay next week between sips of their Glenlivet?
Honestly, just what IS your explanation? If 'THEY' are able to set the prices wherever 'THEY' want, where was the massive price increases after BP shut down the oil line from Alaska, (supposedly) putting a big dent in the supply to the left coast?
I mean, 'THEY' certainly would have had the fig leaf cover of an excuse to 'gouge' the left coast when the pipeline was shut down.......did 'THEY' do it? Or was this an instance when 'THEY' were feeling benevolent?
Or perhaps, just PERHAPS, the 'explanation' that there is a vast conspiracy amoungst 'Big Oil' and they set the prices wherever the hell they want ISN'T correct? Perhaps, just PERHAPS, you don't get a complete picture of what the true supply and demand situation is from reading your local rag or listening to your local talking heads.
Again, why do YOU think your area is consistently above average on prices? Is it because 'THEY' just don't like your area?
If you can't explain my local situation, it would behoove you to not theorize why I cannot. There's no logical way to explain price movements. Before you whine to me, you should be able to answer the questions you pose, yourself.
I can't wait to see the next example of oil industry negligence crop up...the next dose of American-style socialism given to this industry...the next price jack-up...
Don't bite the hand that feeds you, right? Something's up.
You disappoint me. That's all I can say. Basically what you seem to be saying is that the reason the evidence doesn't support your theory is because THEY don't act logically. Yet more evidence it's all a giant conspiracy, right? If they acted logically, they'd be easier to detect. Clever little bastards, aren't they? Good thing you're not fooled.... :confuse:
You're asking ME to explain YOUR local situation? I can't. And I wasn't even TRYING to; I was simply offering up some alternate explanations (logical explanations) which might explain why gas in your area is consistently higher than average.
Perhaps it's local refining capacity.
Perhaps it's transportation costs from the refinery to the distributor and on to the local stations.
Perhaps it's tougher environmental regulations on local distributors or station owners.
Perhaps it's different gasoline blends specifically for the Seattle area compared to the rest of Washington.
My point is that there may be dozens of factors besides JUST the price of crude which may affect the price which YOU see at the pump. And just because, you fintail don't know what all of the factors may be, or the relative influence each factor has on the price at the pump, DOESN'T mean that there is no logical explanation.
Are you asserting that since I don't know the logical reason for YOUR local price fluctuations, this means there IS no logical reason? You give me way too much credit. I'm not omnipotent.
"...the next example of oil industry negligence crop up.."
Referring to the BP oil pipeline, correct?
"...the next dose of American-style socialism given to this industry...."
Referring to.....?
"...the next price jack-up..."
Hmmm. Prices were beginning to fall Nationally AND in the Seattle area prior to the BP oil problems.....and have continued falling since. Wait, that's right, there doesn't have to be logic involved, everything is done on a whim.
"Don't bite the hand that feeds you, right? Something's up."
This is the second time you've made personal reference to why I don't believe in a vast Big Oil/Government involvement conspiracy to screw the American Public. If you can't explain why I take this position, it would behoove you to not theorize about my motives.
"Basically what you seem to be saying is that the reason the evidence doesn't support your theory"
Evidence?
"Perhaps" doesn't float any boats, sorry.
If you can't find a valid reason for pricing trends, just admit you don't know. Just as I have done. When no defense is given and no accountability is forced, no reasons will be seen. You act like you know it all about this issue...yet when details are pressed, nothing is put up.
"Referring to the BP oil pipeline, correct? "
Of course. Don't play dumb.
"Referring to.....? "
Last year's criminal energy bill. More corporate welfare for the richest in the land. Nauseating.
" you can't explain why I take this position, "
You're in Tejas, the state owned by the industry, and you're undoubtedly either employed by it or have invested in it. Simple. I'll theorize as I please...if it irks you, find your lawyer.
Price trends or minute changes on a day-to-day basis?
Try going to gasbuddy.com. They have nice little charts available for a number of different timeframes where you can track average prices in a number of different markets, the U.S. average, and also the price of crude.
Here's the page for Seattle (try charting Seattle prices vs. US average prices and crude oil prices for long periods like 2-3 years):
http://www.seattlegasprices.com/retail_price_chart.aspx
Generally speaking, the price TRENDS reflects the price of crude (what a concept). No, that doesn't explain minute little day-to-day or even week-week price variations (since any number of other factors BESIDES just the price of crude impact the price at the pump).
So, what affects the price TRENDS for crude (and by extension the price of gas at the pump). Um, how about supply and demand? And since oil is traded on the GLOBAL market (and sold as futures based on ANTICIPATED supply and ANTICIPATED demand), it doesn't always reflect ACTUAL supply and demand.
I know, I know, it's the dreaded tired age-old BASIC economic concept of supply and demand. How drool. Believing in vast conspiracies is SO much sexier and allows some folks to stroke the little Marxist in them.....
"...the state owned by the industry, and you're undoubtedly either employed by it or have invested in it...."
Undoubtedly? So far, you're batting 0.000 with your theories. At least you're consistent.
We've been markedly above the average, then just above it, then skirting it, now a little above it again...yeah supply and demand, that's it. It's the best cop out for all of the sad souls who believe we live in some kind of free market where corporate entities act with prudence and justice.
Undoubtedly, indeed.
Didn't I just post that I'm not trying to explain the minute day-to-day or even week-to-week changes in the price of gas at the pump? Didn't I just suggest that you check the price TRENDS over the long term?
"You rail when anyone even hints that oil companies could be operating with diminished ethics..."
Nope. I rail when anyone even hints that supply and demand have NOTHING to do with the price of gas, especially someone who supposedly has a background in economics. I rail when anyone even hints that prices at the pump would somehow magically be lower if corporate taxes were raised.
And I rail when anyone falls back on any number of tinfoil hat conspiracy theories to explain everything that happens TO THEM. IMO, conspiracy theories are the best 'cop out' for all those sad souls who are in a perpetual state of 'victimology'.
All of which has ZIP to do with the topic at hand.
Locally, there's at least a half dozen stations with Unleaded in the $2.50-$2.53 range. We (speaking locally) seem to be down roughly $0.25 from a month ago.
Who said anything about NOTHING? Who said anything about an absolute absence, all the time? Defensive Texans and the oil industry.
And why should anyone have such blind faith when nothing can be documented?
Spare me the conservative dogma...funny you whine about Marxism when your own government practices a bizarro-world style of socialism in regards to this industry.
That would be: "I'm not trying to and I can't".
C'mon fin, I'm not THAT stupid. I can't sit here 3k miles away and KNOW all the vagarities of the local Seattle gasoline market. You know it and I know it. I don't even know all the issues facing the Austin area gasoline market. And I never insinuated that I could.
But just because I don't know the issues involved (and apparently neither do you) DOESN'T MEAN that there IS no rational, logical explanation for the price of gas. You seem (I say "seem") to take it on faith that JUST because no one can post a perfectly transparent neat little formula that you can plug a bunch of numbers into and *bingo* out pops the 'logical' price at the pump, that this must mean that some evil bunch of druid 'corporate suits' pull gas prices out of thin air.....and that they've got all the politicos in their hip pocket.
Now I'll stipulate that a fair number of politicos may be in their hip pocket, but that doesn't mean that good ol'fashioned competition and the 'free market' has simply ceased to exist.
"...when your own government practices a bizarro-world style of socialism in regards to this industry."
Couple of points:
First, it's OUR government (unless I'm mistaken, you are a US citizen; if not, I apologize ahead of time).
Second, yes, our government does practice a 'bizarro-world' style of socialism. But it is by NO means limited to "this industry". It is rampant throughout our society (including large swaths of the business world in the US). It apparently is the natural result of using the tax code to further political agendas....on both sides of the aisle. In many (most?) ways, I consider "my" (by this I assume you mean Republican?) to be 'conservative' in name only. In some areas, they've managed to out-socialize the Dems....and that's saying something.
colusioncollusionamoungamong the stations in your area?Since your challenge I find that old gas prices by day aren't available but I noted the average price chart.
If you'll note that the average price of all stations jumps almost weekly in the Dayton chart compared to the chart for Seattle where prices don't make large or group moves so that the average is affected.
Since you tried to paste your Conspiracy Theory onto anything you don't want to believe from there in oil country, how do you think the average price goes up so drastically in the chart? All the stations go up together? Right!!!
So when you feel like ridiculing someone's statement as conspiracy theory-based, think about what happened here. Oh, you're welcome to come live in this area and then refute my observations made through the years.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Seems odd. That bouncy bouncy trend doesn't appear (as you noticed) in Seattle, or in the Austin area. It DOES appear on the charts for Akron (and Cincy; I didn't look elsewhere in Ohio).
Perhaps the local gas wholesale gas distributors announce price changes to their retail customers on a weekly basis rather than daily? (I can just see fintail gnashing his teeth at my use of the word "perhaps"). This would explain sharp peaks and valleys rather than a smoother curve.
I also note that even though I'm sitting here in "oil country" that our average pump prices at a bit over $2.60/gal are substantially higher than yours at around $2.30/gal. I guess that means your local SW Ohio Oil-Cabal is simply feeling more benevolent than my local Central Tejas Oil-Cabal.
"how do you think the average price goes up so drastically in the chart? All the stations go up together? Right!!!"
And how do you think the average price does DOWN so drastically every week in the chart? Do all the stations go DOWN together? Wait, I seem to remember you saying that they go down at different rates.......so while sharp UPWARDS movements automatically imply they're all in on it together, sharp DOWNWARDS movements imply.....? Attacks of conscience?
BTW - checking prices in the Dayton area, for Marathon stations (part of your local cabal between Marathon and BP) reveals a low of $2.17 in north Dayton and a high of $2.45 in Trotwood. For a cabal able to control prices, they seem to be doing a lousy job. You let me know when ALL of the stations are within $0.10 of each other, let alone the same price.
It aint my government, sorry, citizenship being of no matter. The current regime represents me or my beliefs and knowledge in no way. But it's cool to see you think you're in a position to dictate otherwise.
I never said American-style socialism was limited to oil...but there's no industry reaping the eyewatering profits of oil that in turn receives such massive unjustifiable corporate welfare. It simply cannot be defended.
I'll share my observations: the prices start down shortly after the prices rise quickly by a few stations dropping a few cents, then other stations match that and beat that drop by a few cents and the prices drop more in one part of the greater metro area than in others. That is shown by the lesser slope on the downside of the peaks.
Note the sharp upslope on many of the peaks. That's the indicator that the prices rise at many (most) stations to the same price within hours of each other. For further interest in your observations, a couple or more years ago the upslope occured almost always on Thursday and lasted into Saturday afternoon when some stations had already dropped their price some. That changed about a year ago because, finally, someone questioned how that happened. The gas company representative who was interviewed called the price rising almost as a group to a higher price "restoration." No I don't have a source for that quote. You can suggest a blue flying saucer, but I think the humor has gone out of that by now, grin.
I found the Seattle pattern a real shock. I didn't realize the group upticks was so much an Ohio or Midwest phenomenon. Is it observed in other areas?
We perhaps won't agree, but I hope the flying saucer attitude is gone. The State government had little interest in pursuing any collusion. Remember we have a governor convicted of campaign contribution reporting crimes, an attorney general whose office gives business to favored attornies who were donors, the previous attorney general was from the Findlay area, home of Marathon... she's now secretary of state IIRC. Yes I know some of these should have been capitalized.
And to stay on topic--the Local gas prices are down to $2.14
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
$2.77 from $2.83 all in one day.
Who'd a thunk it?
Now it looks like GM's timing is impeccable with the impending release of the new Silverado!
Hmmm, maybe GM's involved in this conspiracy also?
I'm looking back over your last few posts and notice that statement is MOST accurate concerning the evidence YOU'VE presented to back your case.
Instead all I see is an ideology based on paranoia. You prefer to believe, on faith, that ALL of the oil companies are colluding, they've got most of the big politicos in the back pocket (and the rest running scared), and 'they' set prices at a whim. When I attempt to point out the fallacies in your reasoning, you reply that 'logic' simply doesn't enter into it. No need (obviously) to attempt to provide evidence of your position. Nor logic.
Just say so and move on? How many times have I TOLD you that I DON'T KNOW all the intracacies of your local Seattle gas market? How many times have I TOLD you that I CAN'T explain the day-to-day movements of the price of gas?
NO evidence of a "free market" or "competition"? Out of curiousity, just what WOULD consititute such evidence in this, or any other, industry? For instance, what consititutes evidence of "competition" in the auto industry?
I won't argue the 'your government' or 'our government' issue. Semantics. You know, I had some profs when I was in school that didn't represent me or my beliefs and knowledge in any way. I wonder if I could have gotten out of some finals by claiming that "hey, that's not MY class". Doubtful.
"...there's no industry reaping the eyewatering profits of oil that in turn receives such massive unjustifiable corporate welfare."
Eyewatering profits? Ten cents on the dollar. Have you looked at the profit margins in the banking or pharmaceutical industries?
Oh, you want to look at the profit in terms of net DOLLARS? Fine. Then why not look at the taxes paid to the government in terms of net dollars? Now THAT is eyewatering....
Unjustifiable corporate welfare? IMO, ALL corporate 'welfare' is unjustifiable. The problem comes from politicos playing with the tax code to push personal agendas.
Often times I think things would be much simpler and more transparent with a straightforward CONSUMPTION tax applied to all goods/services sold to the final consumer. And all the 'K' streeters could just go find some real work to do....
I found the Seattle pattern to be typical. I haven't by any means checked ALL of the markets shown on gasbuddy, but I couldn't find ANY that have the huge weekly swings you've noted in the Dayton (SW Ohio) area.
Which tends (IMO) to support my point. The oil companies, particularly Marathon and BP, are NOT located strictly in SW Ohio; they are national. If these price trends were due to collusion at the parent oil company level, why do we only see this pattern in one very localized area? Also, how does this pattern ADD to their bottom line? I would think that the locals would get used to the weekly pattern and KNOW that the prices were likely to come back down just a few days after they shot up. Seems to me (logically) that getting into such an easily forecast pattern would be BAD for profits.
Good lord, I wish blackjack behaved that same way; I'd clean the casinos OUT......
But since this pattern SEEMS to be just a local phenomenon, wouldn't it seem (logical) that the issue is probably due to the practices of the local distributors?
Another point: by checking the Dayton prices over the last 2-3 years, I see that they been CONSISTENTLY below the US average. So, are the local boys colluding to keep prices DOWN? I mean, if there's collusion wouldn't they at least be charging the National average?
But you seem to know the intricacies of the Ohio/SW Ohio gasoline market.
EOD.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
No, I don't.
The difference is, when I don't understand something I look for logical reasons why something may occur. I don't assume that if I don't understand something, it must be a conspiracy.
The assumption is that a conspiracy would be for the point of charging MORE money than an otherwise 'free' market would allow.......but your prices paid are CONSISTENTLY lower than the national average. Lower today, lower last week, lower last month and lower last year.
Seems like a pretty pisspoor conspiracy if they are 'forcing' prices too low......
Don't know about local taxes (although they are typically only a couple of cents if present). The state taxes for Ohio and Washington are roughly the same (state and federal combined at around 40-41 cents a gallon). Texas is at $0.384/gallon.
And the refineries for WA are right there in the Seattle/Tacoma region.
What I'd really like to find would be a source giving the WHOLESALE cost of fuel per region. This way we could eliminate the effect of retail level taxes and the vagarities of the individual stations. After all, we're 'discussing' the price at the pump which is set by the station owners and then trying to draw conclusions about actions at the corporate level.
There is as much as a 15 cent difference within the Chicagoland area.
For all the Ohio folks in here.......HOOK'EM HORNS!!!!!
(I hope our higher gas prices in the Austin area don't cause all the OSU fans who drove down for the game to have a case of acid indigestion - we'll let the game do that.... :P )
Yikes! Are they TRYING to drive business out of certain areas?
I wonder which form oil industry NEGLIGENCE will take next. I wonder what kind of crooked and shameful American-style socialism they will receive next. Oh boo freakin hoo, these cowards actually pay taxes? Those who benefit the most from this burgeoning corporate theocracy actually have to fund the devolution? Shame!
Have fun with your cowardly little regime. Your little college comparison is a hilarious version of apples to oranges. Obvious where that meal ticket comes from.
They have to fund the Daley machine.
If you drive west from Chicago, gas seems to drop as much as 0.30-0.40 by the time you get 90 miles away in Rockford. Part of that is local taxes, part of it is a different formulation of the gas. In this area, gas in usually 0.20-0.30 less than Chicago.
There are something like six to eight DIFFERENT formulations required between Chicago and St. Louis, about 300 miles. Think of all the additional costs of stocking all these different types of gasoline.
I agree with fintail that petroleum is NOT a free market. There is far too much government regulation.
I keep hearing through various sources that WalMart and some of their related companies (Murphy Oil) are looking to work out a deal to purchase ethanol directly from suppliers to avoid the large oil companies. Considering their general downward pressure on prices, that might make the market more interesting.
So far, the 'evidence' that I've seen presented are:
From WA, the gas prices are consistently higher than the national average (confirmed via gasbuddy). Since the prices are always higher it must mean a Conspiracy. If you have any other 'evidence', I'd love to see it.
From OH, the gas prices historically fluctuate on a weekly basis. Anecdotal evidence is that the local stations go from wildly different low prices all UP to the SAME higher price....and then drop back down at different rates (although I've yet to see evidence that this is, in fact, the case). But the evidence that there are relatively large weeekly prices fluctuations (both up AND down) is interpreted as....a Conspiracy.
All I'm saying is that there ARE other, more rational, explanations. However, I also recognize the facts that:
a) some folks are more willing to believe in conspiracies; and
b) you can't change their minds by presenting more rational explanations.
Perhaps that is because rationality has left the building.
BTW - my 'little college comparison' was meant as an attempt at levity and humor. As such, it was directed at someone else. I wouldn't DREAM of attempting such in your direction as I'm sure it would be totally lost on the recipient.
Or I could be wrong; I'm sure you're an absolute RIOT in person.....
Somehow, I doubt that would be fintails solution....
I can't believe some of you are getting lucky with 2.49!!!
Seem to be falling a penny or so everyday......and that's WITH the extra 20-30k football fans in town this weekend.
BTW - I gotta give kudos to the OSU fans in town. There were only around 4k tickets reserved for distribution by OSU. But so many OSU fans wanted to come down and be part of the game atmosphere (tailgating, parties, etc) that the OSU Alumni Association RENTED the UT basketball arena so the OSU fans could all get together and watch the game on the big screen.
Now THAT'S a great set of fans.
"Higher" doesn't cut it...it's the variance from the average that does. It cracks me up that you demand evidence when you have none, yourself.
I concede. Even with your deafening lack of evidence, you win. We should all defer to our corporate controllers and explain away anything even remotely tied to economic issues as being related to some heavenly free market, all natural supply and demand flowing and ebbing as naturally as a tide. And if anyone even remotely hints at anything amoral or crooked on the part of our corporate controllers, they should be obsessively whined to, and then pointed in the direction of "supply and demand", even if nothing exists to support it. Blind faith is patriotic.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Is there some underground little red book in circulation that you pull these gems from or is it a natural talent?
Holy smokes, I just realized it - last night was a FULL MOON! That explains all the barking in here lately.....
You gotta be kidding. JHFC, THAT'S your smoking gun? The 'variance' from the average?
You honestly believe that a gasoline market without a conspiracy would mean that your local average prices would ALWAYS be the same delta from the US average prices? That they would ALWAYS be $0.05 or $0.10 or whatever higher (or lower)? The fact that the difference CHANGES is some sort of 'evidence' of a conspiracy?
Has it ever occurred to you that LOCAL market conditions may change? And that the overall US market conditions may change? And they don't always change the same way? No, I DON'T know just EXACTLY what those conditions are, but it stands to reason (from my side of the fence) that these conditions aren't always static to each other.
If there was NO VARIANCE between the price curves, THAT would be evidence of artificial price controls (a 'conspiracy'). The fact that they DO vary up and down (as every other gas market around the US varies in it's relation to the national average) is simply evidence that there IS no artificial price controls.
Are there any economists reading this?
Wrong.
When the fluxuations simply cannot be explained (or justified - in my market or others) it proves nothing of a free market.
Who said anything about a smoking gun? Don't be so defensive and serious.
Economists tend to deal in theory over reality...just like you and I. We both trade in theory, just opposite ends of the spectrum. Kinda scary that we're so alike...
Corporate controllers.
how about this. i guess the oil companies have never done any market studies. let's see, population, up. average miles driven, up. more countries moving to a more consumer oriented standard of life, up. refining capacity, flat.
seems passive/aggressive to me.
Mark
2015 Mazda 3 Skyactive 6spd. auto 2008 Mazda Tribute S 4spd auto.