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Catastropic engine failure in a 4 year-old Honda Pilot with 47,000miles???!!!!
Yes, that's correct. Driving the car normally one minute, and completely overheated and shut-down the next. Had to be towed to the dealership where they've had it for 3 days and STILL cannot figure out exactly what's wrong. It's bad. Very, very bad.
And to add icing to this wonderful confection, the '05 has a 3/36,000 mile warrarty, whereas the '06 has a 4/48,000 (meaning it would be covered no questions).
The car has had no issues before this. No leaking fluid, no weird noises or grinding--nothing. They've sent it out to be "magnifluxed" to see if there are any other cracks in the engine. Mind you, the engine is torn apart.
If it's ONLY the head gasket (which it's not), the cost will be $1550. For a 4 year-old Honda. They've said that they've never seen this happen before. I like to be different, but not THAT different!
I've already contacted Honda Motors America, who said they can't do anything until a diagnosis of the problem is made. I have a case number, but that's it.
AND....now I'm paying for a crappy rental for at least a week!
DH has been diligent about all maintence--he does the oil changes with genuine honda parts, replaced differential fluid, checks tire pressure, checks that all fluids are topped off...
Any suggestions?
GRR!!!
It's hard to say which way its going to go. I hope you get lucky. I'm thinking worst case scenario is that they'll offer a split settlement with you, and, short of legal action, that may be the best you can do--unless you want to haul the engine over to someone else to have it examined. The idea of a split settlement is that you got some use over the years and so aren't entitled to everything brand new.
My husband does the regular maintenece on this car with Honda parts--oil changes and so forth. He has it all in an Excel spreadsheet where he also tracks the gas mileage of the car for each fill-up. It's detailed, but I don't know if they're going to accept that.
I'm very frustrated, especially because the reason we bought a Honda was for their excellent reliability. Makes me wonder about that now...
Hopefully, Honda will find something unusual and step up to the plate for you. But if they offer you a fair settlement where you pay something out of pocket, I'd go for it and get this behind you. If you dig your heels in, they might up their offer, but they might dig their heels in---and once they've offered a compromise, they start to look good in the eyes of an arbitrator or mediator--if you catch my drift. Of course, it would be nice if this out-of-pocket on your part were minimal, maybe just labor to R&R a new engine. You do have to consider the 40K use you got out of the car and that legally you are totally out of warranty. So play your best cards.
I don't begrudge this dealership--I know they are working to find out what's wrong, and in fact, admit they are just as puzzled as we are. It's just a general frustration with the situation. That, and I have to drive a crappy rental!
You should never replace the oil by yourself during the warranty. Always have it replaced by any 10 minutes shop (or dealership), and keep the receipts. If your husband wants to play changing the oil, he should do it after the warranty expires.
Your spreadsheets, or receipts for buying pads or oil really mean nothing.
Call any other manufacturer on their 1-800 line, and ask if your engine blew and you have no maintenance proof ... will they give you a new engine ?!?
It might depend on what the judge had for breakfast too though. :P
Going to court is a big roll of the dice, so if you can negotiate something out, that's probably a lot less nerve-racking.
I agree.
Buying the oil and filters and so forth, and having receipts for such are a good thing, but corporate lawyers (honda) can say there is no proof of whether or not the items were installed correctly or at all, If they wanted to play hard ball!
Also, going to court without an attorney would almost certainly spell disaster for your case. With an attorney, their fees can quickly dwarf any settlement you might get, even if you won your case.
I used to change my own oil and such, but came to the realization that the savings are not really worth the effort. Our Honda dealer does it for around $30. And that includes some inspections, topping off other fluids and so forth. And they throw in a free car wash. This dealer has also been good about checking for and installing "Technical Service Bulletins" while I am there. These are items that are not necessarily tied into any kind of mandated recall and might never be done if I'm doing my own service or having it done by "Jiffy Lube".
To do it myself, using the Honda filter and "Pennzoil" synthetic blend oil (they use) would cost in the neighborhood of $15 or so. Add in other related expenses, such as the time to do the change, the mess, properly disposing of the used oil and so forth. Of course there is the problem of "What if " there is an expensive failure. Will anybody believe that I did everything on time and properly?
"Stuff" can happen! Parts are made by vendors and occasionally something is out of specs. I want to know that I did everything I could to keep up my end of proper service. I don't know what goes on in the Honda service bays. Did the tech do it properly? I've still got the paper work, "Proving" I made every effort to do it their way. I do know that the few drive train warranty problems I had, involved the dealer looking at my service record on his computer, first thing! My understanding is that any Honda dealer, anywhere, can view my car, any problems I've had, and the service record by simply entering my vin number.
I just don't believe in being penny wise and dollar foolish!
Kip
you do the stuffs yourself means not Honda certified, so not do a thing right or forgot something can spell disaster. The spreadsheet and receipts don't mean everything was done 100% correctly.
The Honda mechanics can't compare with your husband. They are Honda trained, insured and ASE certified while your husband is not.
If the Honda mechanic forgot to fill new oil to the engine after the old oil drained, engine is overheated, they will replace whatever needed, while your husband forogt same then don't scream. We are human, can make mistake any time.
If Honda finds that the problem was caused by a lack of oil, or oil used beyond its useful life, then they may blame maintenance and would be correct in doing so. If there is no clear evidence of an oil problem then they should say that it is a problem with their product. They should be willing to pay 1/2 up to the full cost of the repair if they truly are a customer service oriented corporation. If they don't blame the oil and don't pay a significant portion toward the repair, I hope the owner returns here and gives us that information. That should affect many people's judgement in making any future purchases from Honda. It would mine. I went through this issue with a GM product one time and have never returned as a customer. The future held bankruptcy for GM. Honda and Toyota are not immune from following a very similar path in the future if they don't take care of their customers.
Keep us informed as this story continues to unfold and good luck!
Denigration is not a particularly compelling or persuasive argument. Being respectful of other's views will earn more points in a debate.
tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper
And if we truly are sheep, why don't you post somewhere where humans post, not sheep ...
We shopped around in our area, the Bay Area, to locate a dealer that did the service work correctly and courteously treated my wife. I think they are all about the same as to charges , not sure, but my wife likes the services performed on our 06 Pilot, so it works for us.
I.e. we found one, hope of you do to.
Good luck to all and stay safe
jensad
This board is full of independent and knowledgeble people thus the reason I was so surprised. I didn't expect that so many had bought the line being sold to them. Nothing wrong with getting your car serviced by someone else, but it shouldn't be due to fear of the automaker's wrath when you know you are capable.
One more reason with my wife is the worksheet from Honda, in her files, makes her more secure if she complaints re: work / warrant/ ect. Indeed our extended warranty on our old Toyota, was put to the test years ago, when the tranny went out, still under the magic warrany, she had the service book all filled out and we got it fixed at their cost, i.e. $ 2000 or there abouts.
Good luck to all and stay safe.
jensad
Check oil level / coolant level / brake fluid level / every week...
Check the floor everyday.... Prevention is better than cure.
This for now folks!!!!
When I got the bill, it was broken down as follows:
10K Maintenance $78.00
Oil Change $23.50
15,000 SE $24.50
Total w/ Tax $134.82
I am FURIOUS over this bill. What could they have done that would merit a $78 fee that DOES NOT INCLUDE THE OIL CHANGE? And what in the world is "15,000 SE"? If anyone knows, please tell me.
I've written a letter of complaint to the service manager and copied the salesperson who recently sold us the car. Unless they respond quickly and in a significant way, they've lost my service business (and that of my parents, who bought a car from the same guy 3 months before I did).
We call our very trustworthy regular shop and they told us not to worry. That we can follow the A schedule like we've done with all our cars, meaning it needs the oil changed and tire rotation and go back at around 15k for the "regular" 15 k stuff.
We also call the Honda dealer closer to us (not from where we got the car, that is over an 1hr away) who claims that we need to do BOTH the A and B schedule alternating between them!!!??? Meaning we need to do an oil change, tire rotation, and a VTM differential fluid replacement and then go back to whatever the A says at 15K.
We've own a lot of cars in our lifetime and have never heard of anyone doing both maintenance schedules at the same time. I am sure that if we ask, our trustworthy shop will replace the VTM fluid on the 15K check if is not part of it and will definitely do it if it is part of it without us asking (we've always follow the 15, 30, 45, etc for things other than oil changes basically on all our cars and they've lasted).
I guess my question is, should we follow the A, B, both? I am confused and a bit annoyed to be honest. I will really be annoyed if after picking the B the car signals an A# at 15K... (I really dont' like cars bossing me around, there's lots of people that do that already.. LOL)
Any suggestions? :confuse:
Disclaimer: We've used our current shop for a dozen years or so and they've always been honest, upfront and fair. I tend to believe them and we trust them. Dealers, well, not so much....
NOTE: Two or three weeks after your change oil, check the oil level, add ifneeded.
It happens in my 09 pilot about 1/2 quart was consumed in just 2 weeks or
200 miles and 1/2 quart in 2,000 miles. it is important that the oil is always on
the max. level.
I used to fill up my tank with a premium gas or 92% octain ratings but I noticed a clattering sound in the engine so I switch to 87 sounds good but 89 will be the best for this engine.
and Changing the oil every 2,500 miles is a waste of money and oil.
I do this system based on my driving experience every time when I reached below 30% oil life, I need to push harder to accelerate and engine become a little bit noisier than normal. It does`nt matter to me if I waste a few bucks than to suffer a little bit of performance I`m just the kind of driver that wants almost perfect or even perfect!
If $50-$60 per year is no big deal to you, perhaps consider listening to the science backing today's oil life estimates and instead donate that money to charity.
I`m not saying that $50-60 a year is not a big deal to me, But the point is, I`m just tryin` to do the best for my vehicle, Because I don`t want to buy another car in just a few years. you know what I mean? I want my car to be a vintage car someday if time will allow.
Here: early changing of oil is better than late and late is better than never :sick:
I got this Idea from my former auto instructor way back year 2005 here`s what he says ( ` You can change your oil early if you want and it`s better for the engine too. but just if you have an extra bucks!) I think it`s not a waste of money for doing this. in fact you gain from it.
Extra: I wash the engine (inside) every time I make an oil change. Just putting 2 quarts of oil and run the engine for 1-2 mins . and drain againto make sure there`s no sludge left inside the engine. if you don`t agree with it`s fine but I learned this from my senior chief mechanic. I`m not a mechanic but I can do such task like mechanic do. I`m just in preventive maintenance area. ( prevention is better than cure) the mechanics probably don`t like me :P
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Most oil related failures are due to the lack of oil, not the type or age of the oil. If you are changing the oil at 2,500 miles, there will be no sludge. Too many TV commercials about "performance-robbing" sludge.
The Great Car Maintenance Upsell (Yahoo)
We didn't find the VTM-4 fluid change at 10K and 15K thereafter but will look again and I do appreciate the information. Is just weird to us that it doesn't follow a 15K one like we are used to on our previous cars. I mean, it will be at 10, 25, 40, etc, instead of the way easier to remember 15, 30, 45, etc. So for oil, tires rotation, belts, etc, it is 7.5, 15, 22.5, 30, etc but we have to go in between those for the VTM-4 fluid. Weird!!
The oil change reminder is coming on at about every 6500 miles or so which I think is normal for the use we give the car and what the manual says. I do agree that in new cars, every 3K is an overkill.
Thanks a lot!
"New oil has chemicals that eat away the catalytic converter, says Donny Seyfer, a Colorado-based certified master technician, and changing oil too often can damage that pricey part."
The Great Car Maintenance Upsell (Yahoo)
Good luck to all and stay safe.
jensad
Is it worth it persisting with this car?
The dealer said starter might need replacing. It's about 600$
it needs timing belt replaced. That's another 500$
do you think the starting problem and break switch failure have anything to do with the transmission change.
Thanks
Look at it this way, $1200 is two months of payments on a new Odessey. If you get another year or two out of your's, then you are way ahead. Even with some other costs thown in.
1-2 mins in idle with 2 quarts in the engine can create 1000s of miles of wear???????
comm`n.....did I say that I run the engine w/o oil filter? So you say that my senior mechanic is a junk? Early oil change can also damage the cat. cnvrtr????? 30% left in oil life is not early, and also it is not excessive . Until here guyz!!! I will post back again when my catalytic converter will fail... and also if when my engine does`nt work..I hope not... HAVE A BLESSED DAY TO ALL PILOT OWNERS!!!
oH THANKS BY THE WAY FOR THE POST OF THE VTM4 FLUIDS IT REMINDS ME TO CHANGE IT.
When you first start your car in the morning, all of the oil is sitting in the oil pan. No oil is in the bearings, or the oil passage ways, or other places that oil needs to be when the motor in running. Every time you “cold-start” or “dry-start” the car, the oil has to go through the pump, filter, and oil passages to get to the bearings. During those brief moments, the bearings do not have oil in them and are “bearing” against themselves (it’s actually metal against metal “tearing”). This is known to cause a lot of wear. Some say up to 80% of ALL wear occurs during these starts, but I haven’t read those studies.
There IS oil in the oil filter because most filters have a check-valve that keeps oil from draining all the way back into the oil pan. When you change the oil filter, the pump and filter need to refill with oil first, before it can go through the oil passages and get to the bearings. Oil filters usually hold around 1/3 of a quart.
Way, way, back when I was the most senior junior-automotive technician at a service shop (I never made it the Certified Master Technician status or even Senior Chief Mechanic) and I would have to change the oil/filter in a turbo-charged vehicle, I had to pull the coil wire on the motor and crank the engine until the “low oil pressure” light went off. Then I could replace the coil and start the car. The reason was that if I started the car after I changed the oil without priming it; the turbo could spool-up (spin) and, since there was no oil in the system, I could ruin the bearings in the turbo. Some professionals prime all vehicles when they change the oil to protect all of the bearings throughout the engine. There is even some equipment that can prime your engine every time you start your car!
Yes, it is important that you do not allow the oil level get too low. By running the engine with only two quarts after an oil change, (1/3 of a quart is gonna be used by the filter), there might not be enough oil to supply every bearing with oil, even at idle. Think about it, if you would not drive your car with only two quarts, then why would you want to run the engine AT ALL with only two quarts? :confuse: If too much oil is in the pan then the crankshaft can spash though it and create air that could get sucked-up and delivered to the bearings. Too much oil can also damage seals and create leaks.
Mileage by itself is actually NOT a very good indicator of when to change the oil. Other factors, (the number of cold starts, average oil temperature, average water temp, average rpm, precision of fuel metering, etc.) are just as important. The maintenance minder is the latest technology and uses “fuzzy logic” based on these kinds of factors to estimate oil condition. If the minder is indicating 30% oil life at 2,500 miles, then you have very extreme driving conditions. If it is indicating 15% at 5,000 to 7,000, then you probably drive easy and/or live in mild conditions.
The Honda Pilot requires 4.5 quarts of oil (similar to most V-6 engines) after an oil and filter change. Most shops that change your oil are not going to put that extra ½ quart of oil in there, even the ones that pump it out of a 55-gallon drum. After the oil change, the reading on the dip stick will read right in the center of the range, which is fine. Mine stays right there until the next oil change. If your vehicle is using a quart of oil between changes, that means something is wrong. You either have a leak or the engine is burning oil, both are bad. Vehicles are not “designed” to consume oil, only gas.
Wow, I can’t believe I wrote all this! Sorry about the long post ...
http://www.in.honda.com/Rjanisis/pubs/SB/A03-048.PDF
I guess what I'm saying is, there's a noticeable difference in one year. Can anything be done to smooth it out again?
Thanks!
I always buy a factory service manual for all my vehicles. I have been surfing online, but have not found them for sale.
thanks
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