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1960's Oldsmobiles
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Dual Paths were only used in 61-63 Buick Specials and Skylarks. They were total JUNK! I had one.
The transmission pan is held on my one bolt up the middle.
According to the '63 Olds manual the F-85/Cutlass uses the same automatic as the full size car. I looked at the oil flow diagrams in all four(?) gears and they're identical trannies, although with different ratios for first and second. It mentions a torque converter which the old four speed hydro didn't have. Very strange.
My '62 Pontiac manual doesn't include automatics so I can't compare the Olds tranny to the Pontiac slim jim and four speed hydro.
Parm must be rolling his eyes by now :-). We're probably getting into the "more information than I needed" stage.
But, $21,000? No way.
I've talked to this dealer twice now and he keeps telling me that the CPI Price Guide is essentially worthless. Today, I sent him a page out of an article from the Sept. 2002 issue of Mustang Monthly (MM). The article is a "how to" for buying a classic Mustang, though the rules apply for any classic car.
For determining an offer price, MM recommended using CPI (specifically, CPI was the only price guide they mention in their article). I found it interesting that of all the price guides in the collector car hobby, they chose CPI. While they didn't NOT recommend Old Cars Price Guide, they also didn't even bother to mention it. Thus, it's omission speaks volumes.
Of course, the dealer insists that Old Cars Price Guide is far more accurate (I guess I would too if I were in his shoes) and he continues to maintain that this car is worth Old Car's #1 value of $21,000. The CPI value for a '65 Olds 98 convertible in "good" condition is $5,875 while one in "excellent" condition (which this car appears to be) is valued at $9,700.
It's puzzling how there can be such a wide gap between CPI and Old Cars Price Guide. I mean how many '65 Olds 98 convertibles sell in any given year? Not many, I'll bet. Don't these publications have access to the same sale data? In any event, if I'm wrong about wanting to use CPI, then so too are the folks at MM. Thus, I'm in pretty good company. It'll be interesting to see what reaction (if any) the dealer has to this article.
Having said all this, I have pictures of this car and it does look to be a very well-preserved, very original car. The engine compartment is not detailed, but it contains what appears to be the original, factory chalk markings. The interior looks pretty pristine. This car is also fully loaded.
The dealer is hanging his hat on the fact that this is one of the best '65 Olds 98 convertibles in the country and it just may be. I wouldn't dispute it based on what I've seen. But, the point I tried to make to him (though I don't think he ever heard me) was that demand is more of a determinant of value than condition. I contend that demand for this car is not very strong which is something I need to consider as a potential owner that may want to eventually sell it.
I told him if I paid $21,000 today, that I seriously doubted I'd be able to re-sell the car for that price to which he didn't have a reply. Whatever car I get, all I want is to be able to sell it for what I paid.
He acknowledged that at $21,000, this car would most likely be purchased by a collector. I would agree. However, I also have to believe that dealers of this caliber are few and far between. Otherwise, this car would've been sold long before now.
But, you know, if something turns up that really tweaks your fancy, and it's in range, of both the CPI and OCPG, [like my pristine, original 62 Impala SS was] then I say GO FOR IT! You know, even if you pay a bit too much, [according to what the price guides say] there are other factors that affect that [original papers, documents, etc], and in any case, you'd surely not LOSE anything-if you kept the car and used it over time, etc. So, if you find a car that looks good overall, and the price guides say you're in the ballpark, then what the hell-GO FOR IT! you know, you can't lose much, even if you pay more than what a price guide says. And, if you get an all original car, that's obviously a cherry time capsule, you'll enjoy it, no matter what-and never regret it.
Hey, when I saw my 62 Impala SS, I wasn't even looking for one, but when I saw this one [a time capsule, all original with 41,000 miles] I had to have it, regardless of book value. As it turns out, I've had TONS of pleasure with it, and it will ALWAYS be worth more than what I paid. That's enough for me. Hey-go buy an old classic while you still can-and enjoy it! You'll never regret it!
He'd have to get a lot closer to $10K than I would to $21K I can tell you that right now.
Personally, I would not be willing to pay in excess of a car's value just to own it. If someone has money to burn, then fine. But, I don't.
Believe me, if I bought this car at $21,000, I would definitely "lose" if I kept the car and used it. Maybe if I put it in a time capsule and held it for 10 years I'd be able to sell if for more than my investment. But, what's the fun in that?
When you drive a car, you invariably get paint chips, dings, rust/corrosion, etc - all of which are fine if you didn't have to break into Fort Knox in order to buy it. But, when you start piling on maintenance and repair costs, then all of the sudden that $21,000 doesn't look like such a good deal after all.
Keep in mind your '62 Impala SS is a car some folks would kill for. So there's far less risk for a car like that if you buy it high. For a '65 Olds 98, I doubt most people would even bother to walk across the street. That's not to say I don't like this car, because I do. But, I have to put myself in the shoes of a more typical, mainstream buyer.
I saw the dealer had a 67 Impala convertible for $9,500. Kind of plain looking outside, and based upon his pricing schemes, probably not the greatest paint job?
Just FYI, on E-bay you can search for collector cars just in your region by selecting "All Collector Cars", and then selecting whatever region you wish. Doing that in my region came up with 47 vehicles in my region, including a 65 Coronet station wagon with a 440! No really interesting convertibles for sale, though.
The next month or so will be excellent convertible weather in the midwest, so good luck!
CPI is one of the more accurate of the price guides, and I'm in a position to know this---so take my word for it, CPI is as good as it gets when it comes to "real world" prices on MOST cars. Old Car Price Guide on the other hand, is for padding retail prices or padding appraisals.
CPI isn't too too good on figuring out all the complex options on muscle cars, for instance, but even there it isn't too far off.
Gold Book (www.manheimgold.com) is another decent price guide for "classics" and NADA is pretty good, too.
Another "off the wall", or "don't you wish" price guide is Cars & Parts "Utlimate Collector Car Price Guide" --- crazy prices.
For exotics, Sports Car Market Price Guide is hard to beat.
I use about 7-9 price guides, plus 4 auction databases going back 5 years, plus Internet and in-print comparables for sale, plus consultation with my dealer network.
And based on ALL that, Duffy is overpriced by a lot.
Here are the results for a 1965 Olds 98 convertible as per the three guides you recommend (I tried valiantly to put these figures in an easy to read table, but the Edmunds software wouldn't let me).
CPI:
Fair $3,525
Avg/Good $5,875
Excellent $9,700
Gold Book:
Fair $9,000
Avg/Good $13,000
Excellent $21,000
Show Car $26,000
NADA:
Low Retail $6,215
Avg. Retail $11,900
High Retail $18,100
The values from Gold Book and NADA are fairly consistent, but CPI is a hell of a lot lower. What gives?
How can CPI be that much lower than these other two? As a buyer, I'd love CPI, but as a seller I'd probably want it banished from the earth.
I mean, come on now. How can these guides be this far apart?
By the way, where do these guides get their prices? Auction results would be fairly easy to obtain, but I'm always skeptical of auction values because buyers can let emotions carry them away. Next thing you know, they're writing out a check for more than the car is worth.
How do they get in the trenches and obtain sale prices in private sale transactions involving folks like us? Please don't tell me they include asking prices and dealer listing prices in their calculations. That would be down right scary.
Inquiring minds need to know.
NOTE: The NADA values above assume the base engine which in 1965 was a 425 V8. They allow a 15% for an optional 425 V8 which I think perhaps had a slightly higher compression ratio. I'm assuming the car at Duffy's has the base engine, or else it'd be mentioned in the ad.
I suspect that the difference we see is because some guide books use actual sales data and other books use formulas of what cars "should' sell for.
Personally I think a '65 Olds 98 is a tough sell over $10K, but if you reference it as a formula against other 60s full-size convertibles, it should be more in the $15-16K range for a super nice car. But a '98 isn't a 442 or a Starfire--I can't see it pullling big money.
Essentially, when I see a big gap in price guide prices, this tells me that actual points of sale are few and far between. When I see a very close agreement with all the price guides, I tend to rely more on those, since that means to me that the data comes from many sales transactions, not just 20 a year or some such.
I'd say CPI is a bit low on the car, and NADA a bit high.
As for Gold Book, I don't think price guides should list "show cars", since cost-no-object restorations can fetch very unusual sums in the right venue (big famous auction with everyone drunk, for instance). To me a "show car" is never driven, and the tires are kept in little tire mitts while the car is trailered from place to place.
During my phone conversations with the dealer of the '65 98 convertible, I could've used this hat. The reportedly original, time capsule condition of this car (limited to the interior and exterior paint to some extent - the engine bay is not detailed) only goes so far. After that, it's "so what". My point being that "demand" is a greater determinant of market value than "condition". And, the market demand for a '65 Olds 98 convertible is not overwhelming - at least as far as I can tell.
It's kind of like being the best golfer on the north pole. Yep, you got it - "so what".
The dealer honestly believes he has a real find on his hands with this car and he probably does to a bona fide Oldsmobile collector. But how many of these guys/gals are running around? Thus, I suspect he'll eventually have to drop his price to reflect the more mainstream level of demand in the market.
But, since he thinks the CPI value guide is not worth the paper it's printed on, I doubt his "taking" price will get low enough for me.
I'm sure that, somewhere, there's an Oldsmobile equivalent of this guy. Of course, that dealership may never find him, and that '65 may sit on the lot with a high price tag until the end of time!
Somehow the eccentrics never have much money (there's something Darwinian about that) hence they will never pay top dollar.
By "collects" I don't mean "collects in the backyard". I mean a true collector with vertical and horizontal examples, with all important years highlighted and with various models of particularly stellar years--a 10-25 car collection in other words. A collection that "makes sense" and has been well thought out.
I was just saying that an Oldsmobile is not liklely to be the type of car that one would collect in that sense.....unlike say a Corvette collection, which might have an early 6 cylinder, a fuelie, a split window, a big block, a convertible, maybe the first year of each body change, etc. etc.
But just "collecting" (as in "gathering") cars, sure, anybody can do that. Free country.
Did find out 64-65 Falcon Futura Sprint convertibles are worth more than my 67 Galaxie XL convertible in similar condition. Strange how time turns prices upside-down.
I heard from the dealer (Duffy's) again today by email. He responded to Mustang Monthly's recommendation of the CPI Guide by saying after further review he agreed with CPI's values for Mustangs. But, that's all he said in that regard. Guess that means he doesn't agree with their values for a '65 Olds 98 convertible?
He's asking $21K and said he'd entertain a "reasonable" offer, but if I was thinking of offering $10K (by the way, the top end value per CPI), then there was "no need."
I'm not trying to be a bean counter here, but I have to be smart about this and feel I should have a reasonable exit strategy should I ever decide to sell it. If I bought it for $10K, I think I could probably sell it for that if I ever needed to. But, anything more and it's like walking a high wire with no net on a windy day and I'm not prepared, willing or able to assume that risk.
So, I guess this car won't be sitting in my garage anytime soon. But then again, I suspect it won't be sitting in anybody's garage anytime soon - except for Duffy's.
I agree with you entirely, no point in paying a steep premium for a backwater collectible.
One could make a slight case for paying a slight (operative word in both cases being "slight") premium for the best darn '65 98 convertible in the whole world bar none. What's a "slight" premium, maybe 10% at most, perhaps less? So if CPI is $10k, then *maybe* $10,500 to $11k. Yes, that buyer would pay too much but the damage is relatively minimal.
Even so I'd need to have a very large place in my heart for '65 Oldses for me to feel good about paying that premium. Personally I wouldn't pay $1 more than market for a car like that, however pristine.
Your reactions and opinions are encouraged.
http://www.duffys.com/duffys/results.asp?stocknum=206041
I know,though-I looked at a 50 Plymouth convertible at a dealer in Portland a couple years ago-a gorgeous original-maroon with maroon leather. He wanted way too much, I thought-even more than the Price Guide-$20,000. Well, a week later some guy from Texas bought it sight unseen. There are people out there like that-with huge money to buy any toys they want. And, the dealer can say, "Well, where are you gonna find another one like that?" For a 50 Plymouth, he's right. For a 65 Olds? I don't know. But that doesn't matter if you want the car.
I'd like to know the history of that 65 Olds-where DID they find it, and how much did they pay? I'm guessing you're right-probably less than $10,000, and the private seller had no idea. That's a dealer forya. Whadya gonna do.
Anyway, that is a gorgeous car,no doubt,would be a great driver, and probably last forever with that drivetrain, which is much better than the 61-64 cars before it. But $21,000? I think it might be for sale for a long time.
This dealer has known the owner for a long time and has supposedly tried to buy this car (and probably others) from him for quite some time.
I don't know if this "collector" was the original owner, but I think he was. Anyway, I think the car has been well maintained, but not restored because it really didn't need to be.
So yeah, this is a pretty special car.
Whether "some guy in Texas" overpays one time for a car or not does not determine the market, any more than someone "stealing" the car from an old lady, like the dealer probably did.
If 98 Olds consistently sold for $20K, well then you'd have to adjust the books to reflect that. But one time? Just a glitch in the statistics until a pattern shows up.
I paid less than book value for every car I ever owned, so if you were printing price guides based on my reports, they would be substantially lower than they are.
Actually, and this is exactly what I told the owner of Duffy's, if you take away the Sport Disc magnesium wheels, this car is pretty plain-Jane in terms of it's styling and visual appeal. All other factors being equal in terms of condition of the car, I'd much rather have a 1962-64 Cadillac. The Cadillac body styling is much more attractive, at least to my eye, and the visual appeal of these cars is not dependent on an optional accessory item such as the wheel covers.
In reply to his "if you're only going to offer $10K, then don't bother" (in so many words) statement, I presented an eloquent (naturally) rebuttal that the market demand for a '65 Olds 98 convertible (even for the very best one) is not all that great and that demand is the main determinant of value AND NOT the physical condition of the car. That was a couple of days ago and I've not heard anything back from him since.
That's not say assuming two cars of the same year and model that I'd expect the piece of junk to sell for the same price as the nicely preserved example. Obviously, the nicer car should sell for more. But again, the condition of a car (at least for a '65 Olds 98 convertible) is only going to carry so much of a premium.
CPI shows the value of a '65 Olds 98 convertible in excellent condition to be about $10K. You could argue that since the car has 44,000+ miles, it is not, by definition, in excellent condition. However, I'd be willing to concede their is some additional value attributed to the originality of the car. Thus, I think $10K would be a fair price.
However, since I've not personally inspected or driven the car, I've not made an official offer because if it is as good as it looks, my offer would probably be $10K. At which point, the dealer would likely have me escorted off the property.
So, at this point, its a waiting game - which is fine with me. Because, I know I'll be able to find another car I like equally as well (probably a Cadillac). Meanwhile, unless there's another oil baron down in Texas willing to buy this Olds regardless of the price, this car should be sitting in their showroom for a long time.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
Unfortunately for Duffy, the pool of serious Olds collectors is so small that the one-half of one percent he's waiting for is a guy who's been stuck under his Dynamic 88 for the last six months.
Isn't this a first for the Classic Cars forum?
This is the break-out thread we've been waiting for.
Like the guys who answer those ads in the Dupont Registry for "your own private jet for only $5700 a month!"
Anyway, I don't put much, if any, credence in this particular guide. Unless, of course, I was trying to sell a car ;-)