So, are you saying that you would buy another Honda Van or not? Other vans have their problems and now it is Honda's turn. What van could be better right now, Toyota, Nissan, Mazda or what?
To run from one brand to another because of a problem will just get you in the end. All vehicles will have something to worry about now or down the road.
I just said that I might look into other vehicles when the time comes. It will also depend on how Honda handles my particular situation. One can't help but be leary after a having problems.
That would be Honda standing behind their product. I pulled 1500 lbs 60 miles over the weekend and it did great. Could only tell the load was there on really steep hills. Will be taking 3000 lbs 180 miles this weekend or next. Seems like a good tow vehicle. Rear end rides low for the tongue weight would be only negative comment.
To answer an earlier post - I don't teach at a university. I am familiar with appliance transmissions and know that redirecting fluid would have marginal impact on solving a hot bearing issue. Generally a design problem of a component needs a kit (an assembly of nearby components as well) to solve a design flaw. There are cases where it can be solved by a material change of the component in question - but not often with geometry constraints limiting options.
How do you redirect flow anyhow - drill holes in the walls of the tranny? Risk cutting chip introduction into the unit? Can't see anything easy there short of major part pull and replacement unless this particular bearing happens to have a magical position that allows it to be accessed easy to allow an additional port in the coolant manifold. Highly unlikely.
But, ending on a positive note, I would have more faith hands down in Honda solving this issue than Ford or Chrysler who are content to make quality service parts - but too cheap to put the "godd" part in from the get go. I have an $1200 or so "paper weight" on my desk which is a former cracked aluminum piston from a Windstar transmission. Incidentally, the service part was a machined steel part rather than a stamped and machined aluminum part.
"I have an $1200 or so "paper weight" on my desk which is a former cracked aluminum piston from a Windstar transmission."
I had one of those! Unfortunately it was in my Windstall transmission at the time. Indeed it was replaced with one of steel. That Windstar cost over a third of its purchase price in repairs from 80 - 91K. Before that it was OK. NOt great - just OK.
My 02 Ody is just over 59K at this point. I had the tranny light blink at maybe 37K but it was a faulty sensor. Without even asking about an extended warranty (because of all the ruckus in here I did buy one - silly me - i never do that ona Honda) tehy readilly agreed to fix for free and pay for a rental. I can't complain. I don't tow but have taken the thing all over the place and taht sensor light has been the only repair.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
yes. i had some of the same concerns: how do you assess a gear or bearing's coloration in-situ, unless there is a panel to be removed? how does one increase flow unless there are previously machined ports by which you can re-direct flow? if not pre-existing ports, then are we talking machining in-situ? and if yes, are we talking potential for contamination?
yes -> you hit the high (or depending on how you look at it - the low) points.
not a great situation - but i am hopeful Honda will be doing the right thing for its customers.
Which models are affected by this recall? Affected models include:
Certain model year 2002, 2003 and early 2004 Honda Odyssey minivans.
Certain model year 2003 and early 2004 Honda Pilot sport-utility vehicles.
Certain model year 2001 and 2002 Acura MDX sport-utility vehicles.
What is the problem? Certain operating conditions can result in heat build-up between the second gears of the transmission's countershaft and secondary shaft. Prolonged operation under these conditions can eventually result in a decrease in the gear's material strength. In higher mileage vehicles, this may lead to chipped or broken gear teeth or in rare instances gear failure.
What do you mean by "certain operating conditions"? Extended cruising in top gear with a high engine load but small throttle opening can result in limited oil flow to 2nd gear, causing localized heat build-up. These conditions should be rare. Examples may include extended towing in top gear on a very flat road with a throttle opening of 1/4 or less; or frequent driving up a road with a very consistent slope of approximately 3.5~6%, again maintaining a throttle opening around 1/4 or less.
Under most circumstances, small road undulations or throttle corrections cause the vehicle to go in and out of torque converter lock-up, varying engine rpm, and therefore increasing oil flow to the gears. Increased oil flow dissipates heat and prevents 2nd gear damage.
What are the potential safety hazards of a transmission failure? In a very small number of cases, customers have experienced a transmission lock-up without prior warning. Our records indicate only 10 instances of this type of failure with no injuries or accidents as a result.
What should customers do? Can they continue to drive? American Honda will begin sending notification letters via U.S. mail as soon as sufficient parts are available to support the repair process. Notifications will be sent first to the owners of the oldest affected vehicles. The chance of a complete transmission failure without prior warning is exceptionally rare: only 10 cases out of a population of more than 600,000 vehicles over the past four years, according to our records. We have no confirmed reports of such a failure in the U.S. with less than 60,000 vehicle miles.
How and when will Honda begin to notify owners? Mailings are scheduled to begin in early May and will continue until September or until all customers have been notified. We recommend that customers wait until they are notified before trying to schedule a service appointment. This will allow us to carry out the most efficient, effective and timely campaign.
What is the dealership looking for to identify if there is damage to 2nd gear? Vehicles below 15,000 miles are at no risk for gear damage. In this case, the technician will update the transmission with a simple modification to the oil cooler return line to increase lubrication to second gear.
In vehicles with more than 15,000 miles, the dealer will inspect 2nd gear for discoloration due to heat. If there is any evidence of heat discoloration, the transmission will be replaced. If discoloration is not present, the dealer will perform the modification to the oil cooler return line.
How do I know if my vehicle is involved? Before the end of April, we will update the Owner Link site so a customer can search by their individual VIN to understand if their vehicle is affected.
"Honda Transmission Mfg. of America (HTM). Within two years, HTM surpassed the output of its mother plant in Japan, making it the largest automatic transmission production center for Honda in the world."
It seems awfully unfair; this is like winning lotto. What make Honda determine which vin # vehicles are under recall and which is not! The reasoning that they are not disclosed to the general public? Is to avoid all Honda owns to call? Or not to stand behind all their products?
I call in to check to see whether my Honda is covered? And was told it was not included. And this van start to have transmission problems, and I went to a transmission shop, was told that I should not be driving it. So I end up spending $1700+ and have received an expansive paper weight just like some of the readers in this forum.
Does any body know how honda decided on stand behind some of its products and not the others? Since the transmission on my 2003 odyssey had failed completely, it must be having the same design problem as the ones that are recalling. I bought Honda for all the comments and wasn't expecting a big Lemon. Is there any re-course I can do? Would writing Honda, consumer consult or BBB would help! HELP!
How many miles have you put on this 2003 van? Why are you carrying a 1 year old car to a transmission shop to get it repaired? I would have set that thing on the Honda dealership's lot until it was repaired for FREE. Period. Get in their face and let them know this is not acceptable. Call Honda Regional Customer Service. Since you have already taken it to a non-Honda transmission shop and spent $$, I am not sure what your options are now.
I am sorry, it was a typo, the van is a 2002 which is almost 2 1/2 year old and has 45,000 miles on it. And when I check with the dealer, they pratically said you are on your own! I need a car quick and can't wait to sat at the dealer or pay them 6k to fix it. That is why I took it to a outside shop!
i'm confused. you were having some problems, and you called to ask if it was covered under the recall. they say it wasn't and you're practically on your own...(to which i assume they intimated they may help you to some extent). so you take it to an outside shop and they tell you it's undriveable, and you end up paying $1700. why didn't you just bring it into your dealer and have them diagnose it, then negotiate with them to fix it with the knowlege you had in hand, perhaps even appealing to Honda?
if your vehicle was well maintained by a dealer, I guess I'd still try to seek help from Honda, even if an outside transmission company worked on the car - if you can make the case that the local dealer wasn't going to help you much if at all, and you have clear documentation as to what was done to your car. was another transmission put in? what did you have done for $1700?
Well, I finally got a new (sorry - make that re-bulit) trans for my 2001 Ody with about 75K miles. After a few trips to the dealer who said my trans was fine, I went on a road trip from Austin to Dallas. As soon as I returned, after 3.5 hours of hwy driving, I slowed down to exit and my van sputtered, and the rpm's went crazy... I had to drive in 2nd gear the rest of the way home.
Brought it to the dealer the next day, they called and said I needed a new tranny. Then he said "You want to come get your van while we wait for the parts?" I said "If you put in writing that my van is safe to drive, I'll come get it." I was put on hold a few minutes and he came back on telling me they would get me a rental car - at their expense.
So, I have my rebuilt transmission. Guess what? As soon as I drove it home I could feel that it still slips now and then. I can "tell" its there. Probably not enough to take it back - yet.
After a few Hondas and an Acura, I've lost faith in Honda. I personally want to get rid of this van, but who would have it?
Those of us on the flat plains of the Midwest pulling 3000# alot are in trouble. Good news is that if it will fail, I'll have it done in by the warranty expiration as I have plans to drive several thousand miles with it over the flat lands of the Midwest this summer and next.
Interesting that they would swap out the "bad discolored gear" only since my experience in transmissions indicates that the bad gear usually degrades its mating part along the way to its death. If the whole tranny was opened up, I don't think it would be out of the ordinary to request the mating gears get swapped too.
Lisa (last post) - there has been strong demand for Honda Ody in the used market. You will get top dollar for it, way above a Windstar or Caravan, because there continues to be strong demand. If you want to unload it - do it by all means. I learned my lesson that a bad vehicle generally only gets worse with time. There is no magically hump to get over, just an ever ascending pile of bills and disastification.
Both of you. My concern is that I don't feel that much confidence in my ODY anymore. Drove a few thousand miles from TX to CO last year. Not a care in the world. Even tho my tran is replaced, I read some have needed 2, even 3 replacements. I have a feeling it will happen to my van too, based on how it drives now.
I think that the more people read about the ODY tran problems, the less popular they will become. Also, once someone tests drives mine, not sure they would want it.
Isellhondas - what would I buy? Hmm. Maybe a hybrid considering the gas prices!
lisa, I agree with you as to how you feel about your Ody. If you don't have confidence in it anymore, than sell it. Isn't it funny how Ody owners stick with there van and still call it reliable, to which the trans. problem has been around since 1999. But when it comes to other vans they want to call them unreliable. I make this point because you have so many people on this board to brag about how good there Ody's are even with the small and big problems that have been brought to surface in the last few years. I hope that all Ody owners get their trans. fixed that are having problems. Good Luck.
The so called reliability of Honda is certainly being challenged. There are other sites which I cannot mention on Edmunds with over 500 posts by auto fans who have Odysseys from 2001 thru 2004 who have had problems. Some happy that Honda paid for the repairs but others dissapointed. Do a Google search.
Misery loves company. People with problems will flock to these forums to tell their tales of woe.
Human nature.
Funny, even when Honda steps up and pays for repairs on cars well past their warranty period, people still complain and wring their hands waiting for "what's next".
Even 500 posts about problems is rather insignificant when you consider there are at least 500,000 on the road.
We just bought a 2004 even with the tranny issue because we have faith that even if our tranny is one of the few affected, as long as we have maintained the Ody accordingly Honda will take care of us. Besides, we only did a 2 year lease so it will be under manufacturer warranty as long as we have it.
idon'tsellanything! I am just the average Joe consumer. Yes, Honda's seem to have less problems than other vehicles, but the transmission problems on the Ody's have to be worth at least 3 points on the unreliability scale.
with an Ody and an extended warranty over ANY other minivan. Period. (This is coming from a former 1995 Windstar owner that went through 4 transmissions in just over two years and no matter what Ford rep I talked to the transmission failure was never the fault of the Ford Motor Company or the one and only servicing dealership...).
And I am going to add a little fuel to the fire... As the former owner of a first year model, I would NEVER have purchased an Ody prior to 2001 - ESPECIALLY after the design change in 1999. I understand the thought process behind purchasing the Honda - as nearly all owner of other Honda vehicles would agree - Honda makes a quality product that the company stands behind. No offense folks; it was the first time Honda had ever built a 4200 pound vehicle! The tranny was new and, as three years taught a few of the unlucky ones, under engineered. And they (Honda) still managed (with customer prodding) to accomodate the failures. Yet, from a customer standpoint, their Honda failed them. For $30000, it had better last. Not to mention that the competition in the minivan market has been technologically excellent (Sienna, D&C, Kia, etc) in the last two years.
I had the option of buying a 2004 Sienna, however, passed on it for one overriding reason - experience (it was a first model year)! The Ody early adopters took care of nearly all my initial release concerns by getting the bulk of the first generaion bugs ironed out. Honda alleviated my transmission concerns by re-engineering the vehicle with a 5 speed (and the 3.5 V6 that took regular 87 octane). These factors have made me even more comfortable with my 2003 Ody purchase. Further, I have the 7/100000/$0 warranty - another lesson learned.
And don't forget - that Ody that caused you all this headache is getting you more back in resale that ANY other minivan on the market.
Just my two cents folks... Enjoy your vehicles - whomever manufacturered them!
2003 Honda Odyssey EX-LRES - Midnight Blue Pearl 2004 Honda Accord EX-L Graphite Pearl 2007 Honda Civic EX - Atomic Blue 2013 Honda Civic LX - Crimson Pearl
"Misery loves company. People with problems will flock to these forums to tell their tales of woe."
What an amazingly patronizing, sarcastic, condescending, even insulting thing to say.
It's been my experience on this forum that most of the participants, like myself, are looking for a rational, helpful discussion of situations they are experiencing with their vehicles, or information that will help them avoid mistakes or problems.
Dismissing 500 of these people with a disparaging, sarcastic comment only detracts from this purpose.
I don't believe that Honda's problems are misrepresented by the abundance of posters who have had problems with cars here and in the Accord discussions I have followed for a couple of years now. While a Honda buyer's demographics may be younger and more computer-use oriented and therefore likely to post on a forum while an older Honda buyer in their 50s and 60s and 70s may not be, I don't believe that leads to a rush to post on problems. Many other Honda owners are too busy with other things like kids or their own young lives to post about problems.
There always are a few devotees who rush to criticize here when someone says that there are a lot of problems from Honda. But I don't think Isell meant his comment to be that broad. I've found him to be level-headed about the reality of cars.
Honda is experiencing what other car companies have had through the years. It's how the dealer does or doesn't handle problems that makes a lot of difference in how the problem and the car company is viewed.
Many owners are very forgiving of their current favorite no matter what the car company. Others will recite a litany of problems about their 1982 Hupmobile and how they never would buy from that company, then forgive their current favorite's grand deficits.
But I see 500 (probably more posters out there) as indicative of many more unhappy customers. Supposedly for each person that comes out to complain, there are many others that don't.
Sure, I appreciate Honda giving me an extended warranty on my trans. (Of course I think it was to avoid a recall) But it's not really fixed. I dread going back to the dealer saying "Hey, this isn't quite right..." It took me 3 tries until my van was nearly undriveable before they believed me. We'll see what they say when I'm back in there next time. I have 76K miles on my ODY, the warranty is good until 100K. It makes me anxious that others have been thru a few trannys and still it isn't "right".
No car is perfect. Maybe I'm even more upset because I've been able to drive my previous Honda and Accord till they died at much over 100K with nary a problem. I guess we Honda owners expect more.
Just to split hairs a bit. The '99 thru '01 transmissions weren't Under-Engineered. They suffered from a manufacturing quality control problem. Dimensions of a casting in 2% of transmission were out of tolerance by a few thousands of an inch. These casting weren't caught by inspection, and with too much play in the moving parts, it eventually resulted in tranny failures. The description of the '02-'04 problem reads like a bona fide design shortfall. Honda will end up replacing more of the 5 speed transmissions than the older style as a result.
Of course there are more people complaining than there were a few years ago. Way more people have internet access now than they did in 95 and more people are using the internet as a complaint station. There are no more problems proportionately than there are in any other forums and leading magazines that measure quality still rate Honda very highly. I've had 8 new Hondas over the last few years and they have all been trouble-free (knock on wood) just as my older Hondas were.
That means there would be just as many more there to brag up their car and there are to announce the problems they're having with their car... Same ratio of posts would prevail.
It's not human nature to come to these forums and brag up the merits of our cars. It's much more common to come and complain.
I once read that if a person tries a new restaurant and really liked the place they tend to tell two people. If they have a bad experience, they tell nine people.
No, before I get asked..I do NOT have empiricle evidence of that nor can I post a link.
Well, honestly it really doesn't matter to me if there were 10,000 problem posts. That's still a very marginal percentage of sales and as I stated before; I have faith that if my 2004 Ody, my 2004 Accord, or my 2003 Civic has a problem Honda will take care of it.
Clearly I didn't bring the explanation of the flaw in logic down to a low enough level.
If there are 20000 cars sold and 10% of the posts are from positive supporters, that's 2000 posts represented; if there were 40% negative posts, that's 8000 posts.
If there are 100000 cars sold and 10% of the posts are from postive supporters, that's 10000 posts; if there were 40% negative posts, that 40000 posts.
The ratio of posts bad to good here stays there same.
Again, I bought mine because Honda is selling 127,000 Odys per year and have been doing so for the last few years. There have been 500 posts on Edmunds in 2 years in this forum dedicated to transmission problems. If Honda were selling 127,000 bad transmissions a year Edmunds would blow up with posts much like it did when the Toyota sludge issue became public. Even the Mazda6 and it's rust got much more bandwidth and there aren't nearly as many 6's on the road. Whether my logic is flawed or not I feel confident the transmission issue on the Odyssey isn't nearly as big of a deal as some anti-Honda people make it out to be. Even if my transmission does go bad I'm not worried. I am covered under warranty for 3 years and my lease is only for 2 years. If I buy it and then have a problem I have faith Honda will be proactive in resolving it much like they have been in the past.
I suppose one could play with sales ratios and the number of posts in the Chrysler minivans transmission problems discussion. Or maybe Honda owners are just more vocal than owners of other brands.
I've seen normal percentages for transmission failures of 2 and 3 percent around the net in the past (often in the ad copy of rebuild companies). Three percent would translate into a wad of posts I'd think.
A 3-5% major defect ratio is sort of a catastrophe for a car company. That is, after all, 1 in 20 cars sold ending up broken down by the side of the road. I remember Car X having a 5% head gasket failure rate and it seemed like an epidemic every where you looked.
Hi all, I have trans recall on my 03 Odyssey & dealership would be doing the fix next week, if the vehicle needs to be kept for few days, Honda does not cover the charges for a rental car, I even talked to Honda customer service & they declined. The van only has 16k miles, has anyone experienced these recall issues...?
My 02 was also a recall. It never made it to get the recall. The tranny died on mothers day while going out to eat. Honda did give me a rental and should have the van back with a remanufactured tranny by thursday. Does anyone know if the tranny problems have been fixed?
I have an 04 Odyssey that I purchased with 7 miles at the time I purchased it. I hadn't had any problems with it until recently. I have a close friend that is a Honda machanic at my local dealership. He told me to contact the dealership and ask if there was any bullatins that would include my 04 Ody. I called the dealership and they said they heard of nothing concerning my vehicle. Only after I gave him my VIN number and asked him to check on the computer, did he remember that Honda would like to have my vehicle in to inspect my transmissions 2ND gear. I asked him, was this a recall, and he could only tell me that I should bring my vehicle in to have the inspection done. My buddy from Honda said that what they would be doing is taking five pictures of the 2ND gear and inspect it for metal shavings and then inject that gear with fluid. He mentioned something about possibly needing to install a jet kit, what ever that is? After talking to my buddy I went home and asked my wife, since I rarely drive the vehicle, if she has notice anything weird about the van. She told me that it didn't sound the way that it use to when we first got it. So after driving it without the stereo of dvd player going I noticed a sort of growling sound at about 2000 RPM's. I put the van in park and revved up the ingine between 2 and 3 thousand rpm's and it made the growling sound, which lead me to assume that it might be someting to do with the exshaust system because it doesn't make the noise at idle (hopefull thinking). I have 12,000 miles on it. I have an appointment on Monday with a different dealership since I lost confidence in the first one that I called for what I felt was an attempt to try and blow me off by telling me they were'nt aware of anything that concerned my vehicle. I must add that up to this point I have had absolutely no problems to report, and I really like the van. Call your dealership, have them run your VIN number through their system and find out for yourself.
You can go to www.hondacars.com and register for ownerlink with the VIN from your car. It will automatically notify you if your car is involved in a recall.
You can't start comparing posts on Edmunds and making "failure rate" projections or even comparisons between vehicles. Most people do not even know what Edmunds.com is and even fewer actually post messages. Statistically, looking at it this was is about 99.9% flawed.
Consumer Reports does a sampling and, with enough responses, it is statistically sound. You can view reliability data for all the different cars in their annual buying guide and their annual car issue. You will notice for some cars they will say "insufficient data" which means they did not get enough responses on that type car to make a sound statistical assessment. The only watch-out in their methodology is the "honesty" factor. They are depending on the respondents being honest. Probably a pretty safe assumption . . . most people having problems are dying to "go off" to someone when asked and someone having good luck with a car would have no reason to fabricate problems with it on a survey.
If you look at the historical CR data for the Ody, the transmission does not stick out as a significant problem. I'll put my trust in that.
rbell: Would you describe to me how the random sampling by CR is achieved? A true set of data comes from having a truly random sampling of all owners of a particular vehicle model. How does CR get their document to a cross-section of all owners of Accords, e.g.? They don't. It's whoever subscribes to their mag and whoever out of that list gets sampled. What data do you have for their subscribers being a cross section of Impala owners or Oddysey owners? It isn't. The returns from the already demographically skewed recipients of questionnaires is a statisical problem. Only CR would have data to see if they truly got the 1200+ returns for each model to make their sample accurate within 2% or so. The insufficient data term is a smokescreen, in my opinion, to infer credibility to their other information. just like U.S. senators and representatives on huge salaries with huge retirement plans (not social security) with great medical care themselves telling US citizens that they care about your social security and medicare programs. --just my opinion. Save the flames. I've heard them all before.
So if we can't trust CR then who should we trust? Should we take your word over theirs and Hondas that the transmission issue is rampant? Have you surveyed a random sample of Ody owners or are you basing your opinion on bias?
if one tries to point out the problems with most anecdotal surveys. Someone tries to ridicule the points made:
"Should we take your word over theirs and Hondas that the transmission issue is rampant?" Trying to overstate someone else's statements to the extreme doesn't make your point valid. Like Honda (or GM or --insert favorite example-- is going to say "hey, it's bad. We'll replace them all, now.)
"Have you surveyed a random sample of Ody owners..." No. Have you???!!! Again, overstatement to the absurd doesn't make your point that there is no Honda problem (despite years of extended warranties and problems in _some_ transmissions). Actually I did survey a truly random sample of all Odyssey owners at my own expense and share the results with Honda Japan. I own a company that does surveys for businesses!!!
"are you basing your opinion on bias?..." Another exaggeration to try to make the opposite view absurd. No more than your bias, which you are allowed to do but apparently others aren't allowed to have without receiving sharp opposition.
But remember, ultimately Town Hall is about autos not egos.
Comments
To run from one brand to another because of a problem will just get you in the end. All vehicles will have something to worry about now or down the road.
Good luck.
An answer will be appreciated.
robsdad
To answer an earlier post - I don't teach at a university. I am familiar with appliance transmissions and know that redirecting fluid would have marginal impact on solving a hot bearing issue. Generally a design problem of a component needs a kit (an assembly of nearby components as well) to solve a design flaw. There are cases where it can be solved by a material change of the component in question - but not often with geometry constraints limiting options.
How do you redirect flow anyhow - drill holes in the walls of the tranny? Risk cutting chip introduction into the unit? Can't see anything easy there short of major part pull and replacement unless this particular bearing happens to have a magical position that allows it to be accessed easy to allow an additional port in the coolant manifold. Highly unlikely.
But, ending on a positive note, I would have more faith hands down in Honda solving this issue than Ford or Chrysler who are content to make quality service parts - but too cheap to put the "godd" part in from the get go. I have an $1200 or so "paper weight" on my desk which is a former cracked aluminum piston from a Windstar transmission. Incidentally, the service part was a machined steel part rather than a stamped and machined aluminum part.
I had one of those! Unfortunately it was in my Windstall transmission at the time. Indeed it was replaced with one of steel. That Windstar cost over a third of its purchase price in repairs from 80 - 91K. Before that it was OK. NOt great - just OK.
My 02 Ody is just over 59K at this point. I had the tranny light blink at maybe 37K but it was a faulty sensor. Without even asking about an extended warranty (because of all the ruckus in here I did buy one - silly me - i never do that ona Honda) tehy readilly agreed to fix for free and pay for a rental. I can't complain. I don't tow but have taken the thing all over the place and taht sensor light has been the only repair.
yes -> you hit the high (or depending on how you look at it - the low) points.
not a great situation - but i am hopeful Honda will be doing the right thing for its customers.
Affected models include:
Certain model year 2002, 2003 and early 2004 Honda Odyssey minivans.
Certain model year 2003 and early 2004 Honda Pilot sport-utility vehicles.
Certain model year 2001 and 2002 Acura MDX sport-utility vehicles.
What is the problem?
Certain operating conditions can result in heat build-up between the second gears of the transmission's countershaft and secondary shaft. Prolonged operation under these conditions can eventually result in a decrease in the gear's material strength. In higher mileage vehicles, this may lead to chipped or broken gear teeth or in rare instances gear failure.
What do you mean by "certain operating conditions"?
Extended cruising in top gear with a high engine load but small throttle opening can result in limited oil flow to 2nd gear, causing localized heat build-up. These conditions should be rare. Examples may include extended towing in top gear on a very flat road with a throttle opening of 1/4 or less; or frequent driving up a road with a very consistent slope of approximately 3.5~6%, again maintaining a throttle opening around 1/4 or less.
Under most circumstances, small road undulations or throttle corrections cause the vehicle to go in and out of torque converter lock-up, varying engine rpm, and therefore increasing oil flow to the gears. Increased oil flow dissipates heat and prevents 2nd gear damage.
What are the potential safety hazards of a transmission failure?
In a very small number of cases, customers have experienced a transmission lock-up without prior warning. Our records indicate only 10 instances of this type of failure with no injuries or accidents as a result.
What should customers do? Can they continue to drive?
American Honda will begin sending notification letters via U.S. mail as soon as sufficient parts are available to support the repair process. Notifications will be sent first to the owners of the oldest affected vehicles. The chance of a complete transmission failure without prior warning is exceptionally rare: only 10 cases out of a population of more than 600,000 vehicles over the past four years, according to our records. We have no confirmed reports of such a failure in the U.S. with less than 60,000 vehicle miles.
How and when will Honda begin to notify owners?
Mailings are scheduled to begin in early May and will continue until September or until all customers have been notified. We recommend that customers wait until they are notified before trying to schedule a service appointment. This will allow us to carry out the most efficient, effective and timely campaign.
What is the dealership looking for to identify if there is damage to 2nd gear?
Vehicles below 15,000 miles are at no risk for gear damage. In this case, the technician will update the transmission with a simple modification to the oil cooler return line to increase lubrication to second gear.
In vehicles with more than 15,000 miles, the dealer will inspect 2nd gear for discoloration due to heat. If there is any evidence of heat discoloration, the transmission will be replaced. If discoloration is not present, the dealer will perform the modification to the oil cooler return line.
How do I know if my vehicle is involved?
Before the end of April, we will update the Owner Link site so a customer can search by their individual VIN to understand if their vehicle is affected.
Steve, Host
I will watch for any info that pops up here.
robsdad
"Honda Transmission Mfg. of America (HTM). Within two years, HTM surpassed the output of its mother plant in Japan, making it the largest automatic transmission production center for Honda in the world."
Quietly Making Lots of Transmissions (autofieldguide.com)
Steve, Host
I call in to check to see whether my Honda is covered? And was told it was not included. And this van start to have transmission problems, and I went to a transmission shop, was told that I should not be driving it. So I end up spending $1700+ and have received an expansive paper weight just like some of the readers in this forum.
Does any body know how honda decided on stand behind some of its products and not the others?
Since the transmission on my 2003 odyssey had failed completely, it must be having the same design problem as the ones that are recalling. I bought Honda for all the comments and wasn't expecting a big Lemon. Is there any re-course I can do? Would writing Honda, consumer consult or BBB would help! HELP!
Yes, a one year old Odyssey should go back to the dealer for diagnose even if it's over 36,000 miles which is doubtful.
if your vehicle was well maintained by a dealer, I guess I'd still try to seek help from Honda, even if an outside transmission company worked on the car - if you can make the case that the local dealer wasn't going to help you much if at all, and you have clear documentation as to what was done to your car. was another transmission put in? what did you have done for $1700?
isellhondas - is it too late?
Brought it to the dealer the next day, they called and said I needed a new tranny. Then he said "You want to come get your van while we wait for the parts?" I said "If you put in writing that my van is safe to drive, I'll come get it." I was put on hold a few minutes and he came back on telling me they would get me a rental car - at their expense.
So, I have my rebuilt transmission. Guess what? As soon as I drove it home I could feel that it still slips now and then. I can "tell" its there. Probably not enough to take it back - yet.
After a few Hondas and an Acura, I've lost faith in Honda. I personally want to get rid of this van, but who would have it?
Interesting that they would swap out the "bad discolored gear" only since my experience in transmissions indicates that the bad gear usually degrades its mating part along the way to its death. If the whole tranny was opened up, I don't think it would be out of the ordinary to request the mating gears get swapped too.
Lisa (last post) - there has been strong demand for Honda Ody in the used market. You will get top dollar for it, way above a Windstar or Caravan, because there continues to be strong demand. If you want to unload it - do it by all means. I learned my lesson that a bad vehicle generally only gets worse with time. There is no magically hump to get over, just an ever ascending pile of bills and disastification.
Odysseys have far fewer problems than most!
I think that the more people read about the ODY tran problems, the less popular they will become. Also, once someone tests drives mine, not sure they would want it.
Isellhondas - what would I buy? Hmm. Maybe a hybrid considering the gas prices!
Human nature.
Funny, even when Honda steps up and pays for repairs on cars well past their warranty period, people still complain and wring their hands waiting for "what's next".
Maybe someday, someone will build a perfect car!
Steve, Host
We just bought a 2004 even with the tranny issue because we have faith that even if our tranny is one of the few affected, as long as we have maintained the Ody accordingly Honda will take care of us. Besides, we only did a 2 year lease so it will be under manufacturer warranty as long as we have it.
And I am going to add a little fuel to the fire...
As the former owner of a first year model, I would NEVER have purchased an Ody prior to 2001 - ESPECIALLY after the design change in 1999. I understand the thought process behind purchasing the Honda - as nearly all owner of other Honda vehicles would agree - Honda makes a quality product that the company stands behind. No offense folks; it was the first time Honda had ever built a 4200 pound vehicle! The tranny was new and, as three years taught a few of the unlucky ones, under engineered. And they (Honda) still managed (with customer prodding) to accomodate the failures. Yet, from a customer standpoint, their Honda failed them. For $30000, it had better last. Not to mention that the competition in the minivan market has been technologically excellent (Sienna, D&C, Kia, etc) in the last two years.
I had the option of buying a 2004 Sienna, however, passed on it for one overriding reason - experience (it was a first model year)! The Ody early adopters took care of nearly all my initial release concerns by getting the bulk of the first generaion bugs ironed out. Honda alleviated my transmission concerns by re-engineering the vehicle with a 5 speed (and the 3.5 V6 that took regular 87 octane). These factors have made me even more comfortable with my 2003 Ody purchase. Further, I have the 7/100000/$0 warranty - another lesson learned.
And don't forget - that Ody that caused you all this headache is getting you more back in resale that ANY other minivan on the market.
Just my two cents folks... Enjoy your vehicles - whomever manufacturered them!
2004 Honda Accord EX-L Graphite Pearl
2007 Honda Civic EX - Atomic Blue
2013 Honda Civic LX - Crimson Pearl
What an amazingly patronizing, sarcastic, condescending, even insulting thing to say.
It's been my experience on this forum that most of the participants, like myself, are looking for a rational, helpful discussion of situations they are experiencing with their vehicles, or information that will help them avoid mistakes or problems.
Dismissing 500 of these people with a disparaging, sarcastic comment only detracts from this purpose.
There always are a few devotees who rush to criticize here when someone says that there are a lot of problems from Honda. But I don't think Isell meant his comment to be that broad. I've found him to be level-headed about the reality of cars.
Honda is experiencing what other car companies have had through the years. It's how the dealer does or doesn't handle problems that makes a lot of difference in how the problem and the car company is viewed.
Many owners are very forgiving of their current favorite no matter what the car company. Others will recite a litany of problems about their 1982 Hupmobile and how they never would buy from that company, then forgive their current favorite's grand deficits.
Cars is cars. They ALL have problems now.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I only meant to point out the fact that these forums attract people with problems and that these problems tend, sometimes to get amplified.
I'm not dismissing anyone. The problems are real, they just affect a small percentage of owners.
Sure, I appreciate Honda giving me an extended warranty on my trans. (Of course I think it was to avoid a recall) But it's not really fixed. I dread going back to the dealer saying "Hey, this isn't quite right..." It took me 3 tries until my van was nearly undriveable before they believed me. We'll see what they say when I'm back in there next time. I have 76K miles on my ODY, the warranty is good until 100K. It makes me anxious that others have been thru a few trannys and still it isn't "right".
No car is perfect. Maybe I'm even more upset because I've been able to drive my previous Honda and Accord till they died at much over 100K with nary a problem. I guess we Honda owners expect more.
The description of the '02-'04 problem reads like a bona fide design shortfall. Honda will end up replacing more of the 5 speed transmissions than the older style as a result.
It's either fixed right or it's not. If something is amiss, they need to make it right.
And, you are correct. Honda owners do expect a lot. They should!
That means there would be just as many more there to brag up their car and there are to announce the problems they're having with their car...
Same ratio of posts would prevail.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I once read that if a person tries a new restaurant and really liked the place they tend to tell two people. If they have a bad experience, they tell nine people.
No, before I get asked..I do NOT have empiricle evidence of that nor can I post a link.
I heard this years ago, and I tend to believe it.
Therefore, not the same ratios.
If there are 20000 cars sold and 10% of the posts are from positive supporters, that's 2000 posts represented; if there were 40% negative posts, that's 8000 posts.
If there are 100000 cars sold and 10% of the posts are from postive supporters, that's 10000 posts; if there were 40% negative posts, that 40000 posts.
The ratio of posts bad to good here stays there same.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I've seen normal percentages for transmission failures of 2 and 3 percent around the net in the past (often in the ad copy of rebuild companies). Three percent would translate into a wad of posts I'd think.
Steve, Host
Thx..
Shawn.
Consumer Reports does a sampling and, with enough responses, it is statistically sound. You can view reliability data for all the different cars in their annual buying guide and their annual car issue. You will notice for some cars they will say "insufficient data" which means they did not get enough responses on that type car to make a sound statistical assessment. The only watch-out in their methodology is the "honesty" factor. They are depending on the respondents being honest. Probably a pretty safe assumption . . . most people having problems are dying to "go off" to someone when asked and someone having good luck with a car would have no reason to fabricate problems with it on a survey.
If you look at the historical CR data for the Ody, the transmission does not stick out as a significant problem. I'll put my trust in that.
Would you describe to me how the random sampling by CR is achieved? A true set of data comes from having a truly random sampling of all owners of a particular vehicle model. How does CR get their document to a cross-section of all owners of Accords, e.g.?
They don't. It's whoever subscribes to their mag and whoever out of that list gets sampled. What data do you have for their subscribers being a cross section of Impala owners or Oddysey owners? It isn't.
The returns from the already demographically skewed recipients of questionnaires is a statisical problem. Only CR would have data to see if they truly got the 1200+ returns for each model to make their sample accurate within 2% or so.
The insufficient data term is a smokescreen, in my opinion, to infer credibility to their other information. just like U.S. senators and representatives on huge salaries with huge retirement plans (not social security) with great medical care themselves telling US citizens that they care about your social security and medicare programs.
--just my opinion. Save the flames. I've heard them all before.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
"Should we take your word over theirs and Hondas that the transmission issue is rampant?"
Trying to overstate someone else's statements to the extreme doesn't make your point valid. Like Honda (or GM or --insert favorite example-- is going to say "hey, it's bad. We'll replace them all, now.)
"Have you surveyed a random sample of Ody owners..."
No. Have you???!!! Again, overstatement to the absurd doesn't make your point that there is no Honda problem (despite years of extended warranties and problems in _some_ transmissions).
Actually I did survey a truly random sample of all Odyssey owners at my own expense and share the results with Honda Japan. I own a company that does surveys for businesses!!!
"are you basing your opinion on bias?..."
Another exaggeration to try to make the opposite view absurd. No more than your bias, which you are allowed to do but apparently others aren't allowed to have without receiving sharp opposition.
But remember, ultimately Town Hall is about autos not egos.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,