I agree with Terry, who is the professional.. Never lease a used car. You can almost always make a better deal on a brand new one... But, I'm not sure you'll be able to buy the car from BMWFS and still get it CPOed. I think they will tell you that you have to go through the dealer to do that. If you can get it CPOed through the bank, I'd love to know about it... Because that would be a good way to go.
On the positive side, your car should still be in warranty for another year, even if you just buy it straight out.
Thanks for the responses. rroyce10, your post is missing rule #1. What is rule #1? Also, you are saying NOT to contact the dealer, while livinbmw is saying I should contact the dealer. Can I get additional guidance here?
If the re-lease monthly payments are near what I can obtain on a new car lease (of a comparable car), of course I will get the new car. However, if the re-lease payments are significantly lower, then I would be tempted to re-lease the car. Any idea what the residual would be on another 3-year lease? Since usually a car loses a lot of value during the first year or so, would the residual for years 4-6 be better than the first 3 years? The current lease has a residual of .62 for a 36K mile/36 month lease. Also, is the residual on the re-lease set or is it negotiable?
I might be wrong, but I think livinbmw is a BMW salesman... at least, it sure seems that way from his posts..
The reason you want to contact BMWFS first, is that they won't want to step on a dealer's toes, if they are also working with you on the car. Chances are, the dealer is going to want to make some profit on any kind of deal, which you may be able to cut out going straight to the bank.
Most banks use a set dollar amount for used cars, with a variance to take into account any mileage differences. Usually, as long as the car has a certain amount of equipment (auto, leather, etc), the residual is the same for all cars of that model with the same mileage regardless of extra options. Also, resale values for six year old cars can vary greatly, so the banks tend to be much more conservative on residual values (meaning: lower), which tends to push up the lease cost. Plus, there is usually not any manufacturer incentives on a used lease (CPO might be an exception), which also negatively affects them in comparison to new. Usually residuals are never negotiable. They may be different from different banks, but they are what they are.
If it is a BMW financial lease the leasing dealer is obliged to by the car for either the buy-out amount or current MMR (manheim market report).
The dealer is the only one who can certify the car and it must be retailed through the center for CPO. The CPO is a great way to go if you want to keep the car and it's good for the dealer, too so they should be very helpful. They should be able to get #'s for you easily, as I've stated. You need the figures to decide but generally the used car lease may not be as attractive as a new car program.
I've sold cars for BMW, Toyota, and General Motors. But, right now I'm not selling cars. I work as a consultant for a large dealer group that includes a BMW store but I have no need to solicite so, I hope you don't take any offense to my opinions. We all have biases and everything is relative, right?
The board is lucky to have both of you and the different perspectives that you offer. I have been reading for a while and see how helpful your information is! Thanks!
I would like to know what any of you out there may have been quoted for a 2004 525i.
Sports + premium package. I've been told that dealers cost is 8% below MSRP. That said, I have seen this car at 48,375 MSRP (with premium+Sports package) and -8% (cost) would be approx 45,000. Would I be doing good getting it at 45-46K??????
.. ** What is rule #1 ** .... if you like the vehicle and the price is right (plus you know the previous owner) then you can take a shot at it .....
** Also, you are saying NOT to contact the dealer ** ..... the dealer doesn't own the vehicle and doesn't have the title, BMW does, the dealer has been "out" of this deal since you tatoo'd the paperwork, anything they get involved in will cost you $$$ ...
Deal directly with BMWFS, they will be looking at the auction reports about 3/4 weeks before the lease end, then they will: 1.) decide what the loss could/might be vs residual .. 2.) they are looking for a buyer, preferably you. Thats because it costs money to transport, detail, then spend auction fee's and rep fee's to take it and sell it there ..... if the figures are right, you can have it "certified" at the Bimmer store and pay for the warranty ....... drop the vehicles info over at Real World Trade-In Values, and we can go from there.
Thank you everyone again for your help. Let me summarize and add a few more details.
My lease is up 12/29/2004. I'll wait until 3 to 4 weeks before lease-end to see what BMWFS will offer me to re-lease (I already have the buy-out amount, it is in the contract, if I choose to buy the car). My car is in excellent condition. However, because it is stick shift, it probably would be harder for BMW to resell. This might motivate them into giving me a better lease rate. However, after the 6 years is up, it may be even more difficult to sell with a stick, therefore the residual may be lower, causing the monthly lease rate to be higher.
The only reason I want the dealer involved is so the car can be CPO'd. I want that protection.
So, for the lease, it really comes down to price... If they offer me a significantly lower monthly on a new lease, then I re-lease. If not, then the car goes...
Or, I can buy the car outright for $28.5K, but it would cost me sales tax ($2.3K+), cost of CPO ($1.1K+), and new tires ($1K+)(the tires have 31K original miles and still over 3mm tread depth).
...And then there is the other factor...my wife. She wants me to let the BMW go and buy a mini-van instead. She says its better to haul the kids and cargo. But I love my BMW.
If they offer me a significantly lower monthly on a new lease, then I re-lease. If not, then the car goes... Or, I can buy the car outright for $28.5K, but it would cost me sales tax ($2.3K+), cost of CPO ($1.1K+), and new tires ($1K+)(the tires have 31K original miles and still over 3mm tread depth). ... And then there is the other factor... my wife. She wants me to let the BMW go and buy a mini-van instead. She says its better to haul the kids and cargo. But I love my BMW.
=============================
Ah ha.! Now we have some Real Deal info ... it's a 02 530i with a handshaker and 31 klicks and your buy-out is $28,5 (as of today) ..
$28,5 is "about" auction money, so that price is fine, you keep saying "lease" forget the lease on a used vehicle, they don't work, you might find a better lease deal on the new ones come December ..
And speaking of December, BMWFS will looking at the auction reports in late November and if you do it right, you should get a better pay-off during that time ... hmm, the holidays, it's a handshaker, auctions are slow until mid January, prices have dropped since July, you get the picture .. and no, don't get the dealer involved unless it's for the CPO and that will happen last ..
Then of course, you have the "wife" factor and that I can't help ya with .l.o.l.... but at least you have enough info to defend yourself.
Terry, Edmund's TMV says the current trade in value on the car with pp, sp, zenon's is $31,294. Retail is still over $36K. So my buy-out is slightly lower than current trade-in TMV.
Re-leasing was just an idea, that now I realize may be a bad idea.
Another question, then. Terry, when you say: "And speaking of December, BMWFS will looking at the auction reports in late November and if you do it right, you should get a better pay-off during that time." Are you saying that the buy-out price is negotiable? But I though it was set in the lease contract?
.. ** Terry, Edmund's TMV says the current trade in value on the car with pp, sp, xenon's is $31,294. Retail is still over $36K **
$31,294 .? then have Edmunds cut you a check for it .l.o.l. .. there's not a dealer between Seattle and San Onofre that will put $31,0 into a 02 530i with 31k "and" a handshaker, not when they can buy them in Riverside for the $28ish figure ... $36,0 is an *asking* retail price, and most dealers will cut them form the herd for the $32/$33 range because of the el' Manual tranny .....
Most buyouts are negotiable -if- (the word being here is, IF) they are done properly, that means they look at the auction reports for the month and make a decision, do we run it off to the auction and see X or do we get a full blown buyer now - so it will depend on current market values "then", not now .. in your case it's with BMWFS and they will negotiate if it's "you and them", get the dealer involved and you will get shut-down .. they know how many times you call, they keep notes and hold information, as most do, and of course there trying to keep business for their dealer network, it's just smart business ....
What the Bimmer might be worth in December, no one can say .. the 05's will be on the ground and based on the new style, there not killing anyone .. if I was to guess -and- it's "only" a guess, I would say the deep $26ish range, so you "might" see the $27ish range, I dunno and I hate guessing .l.o.l... and no, their not going to take $24 for a $27,0 vehicle .............................
Terry, that is great info. If I can buy the car for a few K's less, then maybe I can convince the wife that we can keep the Bimmer AND get the mini-van for her. Win-win.
It's too bad that there's not more demand for a "handshaker" transmission and as a result the resale value suffers. The car is more lively and fun to drive with a stick. There is nothing like driving the canyon roads with a stick. And for me, that was a big selling point on getting the 530i. In fact, when I leased the car back in December 2001, I was able to get the car at just $1K over invoice because it had the stick and was not high in demand.
PEN101: I may have a solution to part of your problem.. BMWNA just announced that they will be selling extended warranties that are identical to the CPO warranty.
They are only available to the original purchaser or lessee. The cost for the 5-series is $2749.
That is pretty pricy, but if you can negotiate a lower buyout at the end of your lease, you can have your cake and eat it too (well, except for the $2749).
I am confused. A few months back I asked the dealer how much it would cost to CPO my car if I decide to keep it. He said it would be about $1.1K plus any other work required to meet the CPO requirements (such as tires). Now you are saying I can have the same extended warranty for $2,749. I must be missing something.
It is a new program that starts August 1st.. What your dealer proposed doing is technically against BMW policy. Up until now, there was no "factory" extended warranty available, except on a CPO car.
regards, kyfdx
It may sound expensive, but keeping the dealer out of your lease buyout deal might save you enough to make up for it.
Where did you get the details about the BMW extended warranty? I found nothing on the BMWUSA site as yet. The price is less than what the dealer wanted for a third party warranty when I bought my E39 last year.
Does the new warranty have to be bought before the expiration of the 4yr/50K warranty? Does it require that the car be dealer serviced during the extended warranty period?
The dealer can buy a BMW lease for less than the customer can. BMW financial can gain nothing from negotiating with the buyer because each BMW center is obligated to buy the car back at the end of the lease for either the residual or current MMR. So, why would they sell it to the lessee for any lower amount than what was stated in the contract? Furthermore, if you're going to have the Certified (which is more than just an extended service contract and cheaper) than it MUST be retailed through a Center.
I can see the general advice is eliminating a party to the transaction but in this case it's best to at least let the dealer try to help because the service they can provided cannot be matched outside of their assistance. And, yeah, they'll make some money.
OK, I'm learning here. Now I realize that current MMR may be an important factor in determining the ultimate purchase price. As information is power, and if I know the current MMR, it could potentially help me (and others) negotiate a more favorable deal. How do I obtain this information? This information may also be helpful to anyone buying a used car (better than Kelly Blue Book, Nada, Edmunds or other on-line resources).
.. ** because each BMW center is obligated to buy the car back at the end of the lease for either the residual or current MMR **
It seems are boy Livinbmw is a little confused, maybe alot ...
The Bimmer dealer is NOT obligated to buy anything .. but they do have FIRST option to purchase the vehicle for mmr and/or the residual - or send it south .. what that means is: it gives the dealer another opportunity to sell or re-lease the vehicle to the original customer, with little or no expense ... thats why I said: keep the dealer "out" of the deal, they will only have an interest in the vehicle "if you" have an interest in it ~ are you getting it now.? ...
This is nothing new, it's the same for every lease co. out there ..... the same goes for the Jag, Chevy, Benz, Mazda, Lincoln, Ford dealers, it's an another opportunity for the dealer to sell the vehicle again and it gives the lease co. a chance to move a vehicle quickly and not pay for the cost of transport, auction fee, detail, service and the rep fee's, and depending on the time of the year, type of vehicle, condition, it can cost $700/$900/$1,200+ a vehicle, or more .......
Every dealer gets a lease list every month for all of their "own" lease customers ... some might be 30 months "out", some might be 20 months "out" and in your case, your 4 months "out" and dealers are just looking for another opportunity to sell/lease another vehicle, it's smart, it's just good business and you can't blame them for the attempts .. hey, I've done it a thousand times .l.o.l. ... by the way, those were mmr prices that I gave you, so you have all the information that one could grasp for the next few days or so ..........................
The info came from a BMW CA on another forum.. It is a brand new program.. Only available to the original owner or lessee. If I was going to buy the warranty, then I would be sure to buy the extended maintenance plan from the dealer as well.
regards, kyfdx
P.S.: For those of you not familiar with rroyce (Terry), he is a dealer principal that knows more about the car business than anyone else on Edmunds. His advice is almost always "right on the money" and has saved me money more than once. (also cost me money, when I ignored it..LOL).
I don't doubt your expertise for a second, it's obvious. You'd probably be a great guy to have a scotch with and talk about the business.
Just to be a little more specific so maybe their is a better understanding on how BMW Financial and BMW North America are different about lease and balloon notes; Each Center in the country has a lease portfolio and they can only reject a very specific and controlled number of lease returns each month. Generally, the Center is eager to have the inventory because as you know from high auction prices, the lease returns are the best way for a dealer to enhance their used car inventory, just ask the people at Crevier BMW or Momentum BMW. Look at the Certified Pre-Owned sales for BMW over the last three years and it's clear that the dealers are increasing sales and therefore need more inventory. In addition, the sales that do have BMW Financial vehicles or BMW North America Company cars are usually closed and only for BMW dealers.
I stand by my contention that I would want to have the most information possible in making the decision concerning certification of a lease end vehicle and would want the dealers offer for evaluation.
That '02 530i in question would bring more than 28 ish........I'd say a nice black one with a sport package would get some heavy attention from bidders. " buy them in Riverside for the $28ish figure "
There's been 2 (only 2 and probably at closed dealer only auctions) similar cars there at Riverside recently and one of them did sell at 28 but there was also another black one that went for 31 and I'll bet that the higher dollar one had a sport package. Sport is a big deal on a 530i. Plus, on top of the auction price, there's fees, transportation and reconditioning, right? I'd say the 28 figure is sort of a "low ball".
Possibly the Riverside price variances were also due to mileage difference and options differences, such as (as was suggested) SP, or also PP, CWP and premium stereo (I am assuming both cars were stick).
I just got an offer in the mail today from BMWFS to buy additional lease miles for .16/mile instead of .20 if I go over. Normally this can only be done at least 10 months from lease-end, but they made a mistake by sending the mailers out to everyone, so they will honor it.
At my current usage, I estimate the car will be over by about 1.5K miles (37.5K on a 36K lease) unless I severely curtail my driving these next few months. However, it I decide to let the car go at lease-end, maybe I shouldn't be so tight with putting the mileage on the car to stay within my allotment (currently I split my driving mileage between 2 cars), since I would not care that the car would be worth less with the higher mileage.
If I decide to buy the car, I probably would not want to run up the mileage before lease-end. But if I decide to let the car go, then would it be a bad thing to increase my driving of the car to get extra mileage out of it (and buy the extra mileage at .16/mile)? Free maintainance on MY2002 5-series was 3-years/36K, but warranty is 4-yrs/50K.
... ** over the last three years and it's clear that the dealers are increasing sales and therefore need more inventory. In addition, the sales that do have BMW Financial vehicles or BMW North America Company cars are usually closed and only for BMW dealers **
Bud, your singing to the choir here .. you don't have to sell me, I buy and sell 50/60 Bimmers a month .. I understand your view, but in this case it doesn't help Pen101 one bit ~ lets be honest here, thats the dealers glasses your lookin' thru ..
Sports Smorts, unless it's a pre-sold vehicle, handshakers aren't breakin' any sales records right now, and dealers just aren't going to "belly-up" to the bar and drop big cash in one ... as far as what it "might" do at the auction, thats just a throw of the dice, because they aren't burning any barns down in Dallas, Miami, Denver, Boston or at the big Manheim .. obviously none of your money is coming out of the "Hip National Bank" for "any" decisions here .l.o.l.. you will get whole different point of view when it's your money invested and your a "real" decision maker and no longer a cheerleader ..............
1) Since you aren't sure what you are going to do, don't buy the extra miles. $.04 times 1500 miles is only $60. Not worth buying ahead of time for that small of a difference.
2) If you decide to buy the car and think you might buy the extended warranty or have it CPOed (result will be the same), you will probably want to extend the maintenance plan to match the warranty. On an '02 3-series, this costs $1384..I'm not sure of the charge on a 5-series, except that I am sure it is more. I'm not necessarily recommending the extended maintenance plan, but if you are going to the dealer for warranty work, it usually pays off.. Especially since it covers brakes for the duration. If you are going to extend the maintenance plan, you have to do it before your current maintenance plan expires at 3yr/36K miles.
All of this can be very true except the part about me being a cheerleader. I'd take that car for 28 right now but not if didn't have a sport package (28,9 is average in the black book and the stick deduct is a wash with the sport and premium plus I'd say black is the strongest color, right). That 5 with the bigger six and the stick is definitely a performance guy's car and no sport package would surely hurt the car in my mind.
If your not a BMW dealer and your moving 50 to 60 'bimmers a month that's a BIG #. I probably should be asking you about a job instead of verbally sparring here.
This question sort of fits in with the current discussion: what is are the resale pluses or minuses for SMG? I can see that MT limits resale, but not sure how SMG is seen. I am liking SMG as it has an auto mode for other users besides myself, yet it allows manual shifting when I want to get the most out of the car. But, resale issues are an unknown for me, so I ask.
According to what I have read, BMW claims that SMG III in the E60 M5 is smooth, jerks reduced substantially. It also shifts 20% faster. If this is the case, this renders SMGs I and II crude and obsolete. I would expect this to affect resale considerably.
I'm looking to order a 2005 545 six-speed. Can you do the same analysis for that? I want Nav, folding seats, satellite radio, PDC, cold weather package and sports package (understand this is now an option with the six-speed. Plan to take European delivery. I did this with my last BMW (1986 325eS and it is still running although barely)and was pleased with the service.
Alternatively, can you point me in the right direction to determine invoice prices?
I am getting ready to buy a 2004 530i, with Premium Package, Automatic, and Xenons. The MSRP is $50,070.00, invoice is $45,840.00. I am surprised that BMW has yet to place any incentives on the 2004 5-series. Any advice as to what I should pay for this car?
At one time this year, there were incentives on the 5-series... I'm not currently up to date on them, but they may have been replaced with lease incentives. Earlier, they were $1000.
Has anybody heard of anybody purchasing any 2004 530i's or 525's below invoice price. If so, how much below invoice price? Looking to buy one and would definitely like to buy one below invoice. Is that a reality like it was with the 2003's?
I appreicate as much input as possible. You can never overkill with too much advice.
You can do that if you are willing to spend less than a $1000 extra (or use FF miles) to fly to Munich over a weekend and wait for the car for 6-8 weeks after paying for it. Look at the European Delivery program in the 3 series boards. The ED MSRP is 7-8% the US MSRP and the ED invoice is also similarly reduced. If you shop around you can get an ED car at about $1000-$1500 over ED invoice. This will put you under the US invoice.
Are you saying that you can fly to Munich and order the car there (and presumably pay for it) then return to the US and await delivery in the States? Can you do this now for an 05?
I got my current car through ED but had to order it from a US dealer, pay for it then, eight weeks later, flew to Munich and picked it up. From there I shipped it back to the US and eventually picked it up at the dealer's.
Just to follow up, do you know if the dealers are expecting any manufacturing rebates to clear the 2004 inventory just in time for the 2005? Thus, possibley selling below invoice due to the rebates?
It sounds like getting the 2004's below invoice is not going to be as easy as it was with the 2003's since they were giving $3-$4K rebates on the 2003's due to the change of model.
dealer supply is very low on the new 5 right now, and that might mean no incentives. But, they briefly had a small incentive on the 5 and they may again. I don't think that you're going to have any dealer blowing out the cars. They are money makers and well worth the premium dollar you spend. Look how expensive the used ones are. Besides, a thousand dollars or so, in relation to what you're spending anyway (40 to 60 grand) shouldn't be a deal breaker in my mind.
I've perused these forums for several days now--thanks to all for your helpful information and your passion for BMWs.
I'm about to lease my first b-b-bimmer, a 525i (Black sapphire metallic, Black leather, Premium package, Steptronic auto.; Xenon; Satellite radio prep.).
My company is leasing the 525 for me. It will pay for about half the drive-off, and the monthly payment MUST be at or below $450 INCLUDING tax.
Despite my company paying for the lease, I still want to get the BEST deal since I might take over the payments at some point as well as I'll probably purchase the 525 at the end of the lease.
Is the following deal good?
Here are the numbers of the best quote in my area (L.A.):
Cap. cost: 42,435 Bank fee: 525 Total Cap: 42,960 Cap reduction: 5,756.36 Net Cap.: 37,203.64 Residual (61%): 27,477.45 Total Depreciation: 9,726.19
Cap Reduction: 5,756.36 Tax: 474.90 Doc Fee: 45 License: 331 Gov. Fee: 5 1st Payment: 450 Total Drive-off: 7,062.26
Money Factor: .00225 Term: 36 months Mileage: 10,000/yr. (which will not be a problem)
The salesman said that he was making just $900 over invoice, but according to my calculations, there's $260 unaccounted for--could this be an unstated acquisition fee, and if it is, then is $260 PLUS $525 (stated bank fee) a high price ($785) to pay for the privilege of a BMWFS lease?
$900 or $1,160 (with the mysterious $260) over invoice: is that good?
Is the "bank fee" usually added to the cap. cost? I've received quotes in which the bank fee is NOT added to the cap. cost rather it is added to the drive-off.
I found the buy rate (.00210) at one of the Edmunds' forums (thank you to the person who supplied it) and mentioned it to the salesman. He said that since he was waiving the security deposit, the money factor is increased .00015 (which I knew from the aforementioned post). But later I figured out that if I pay the refundable security deposit to get the lower money factor, I'll save about $360 over the lease term AND get my deposit back. Is there a reason NOT to pay the deposit? Has anyone had any problems getting the deposit back?
Any suggestions?
Thanks for your patience with my way-too-long post--it's the shaky nerves from being so close yet feeling so far away.
You are right.. make the security deposit, and reduce your cap cost reduction.. You'll be out about $160-$170 more upfront, but you'll get $500 returned at the back end.
What is the MSRP of the car? Can't check the numbers without that.
Cap cost reductions are usually a bad idea, but considering your circumstances with the employer picking up the payment, it makes sense.
BTW the invoice is $41,270 (incl. $695 destination).
Is $900 - $1,120 over invoice a good deal for a 2004 525i?
If the mysterious, unspecified $260 in the cap. cost is indeed the acquisition fee, then is the acquisition fee ($260) PLUS the (stated) bank fee ($525) too high ($785)?
Thanks again for the help--I'm feeling a little less shaky.
Why would a salesman move the bank fee from the drive-off (in one quote) to the cap. cost (in another quote)?
Of course the move was done such that my monthly payments were NOT changed while my total drive-off was actually a bit HIGHER ($43.31)--AHA!
When I challenged this, the salesman stated that the original quote was just an estimate and that the difference was insignificant--why are ALL the insignificant differences ALWAYS in favor of the dealership? (Rhetorical--AHA!)
So is this a common strategy, i.e., offer a quote with the bank fee in the drive-off then moving it to the cap. cost as the close of the deal nears?
Are there more benefits to the dealership that I'm not getting (PUN INTENDED)?
When he says they are only making $900, that means nothing... It could be true, but who knows? The difference could be MACO (advertising fee on the invoice) that dealers in some metropolitan areas have to pay. The amount is in the right ballpark for that. I believe $900-$1160 over invoice is a pretty good deal and might be a little lower than most people pay.
I will say this: Now that I have the MSRP, I ran all the numbers and they come out almost exactly what your dealer has given you.. So, it looks pretty darn good... The only thing I would suggest, is making the security deposit, and have them use the lower MF. This should increase your upfront about $160-$170, but will save you in the long run.
You can always try to negotiate a lower cap cost.. If that $260 bothers you, tell them that is what is stopping you from making the deal. Since you are making a big cap cost reduction, any money you save goes straight into your pocket. A fair deal all around, I think.
It has been discussed or rumored before in this forum, but does anyone know when or if BMW is going to bring out the 535 with more horsepower. I am looking to buy 530, but would wait if I know 535 is coming out soon. ANy info would be greatly appreciated.
That's a real good deal....and a great selection for that payment range!!! Here's an idea; check and see what the previous version 5 series in the 2003 models are selling for as used cars. In fact, there are probably used 04's popping up now. I bet the used 04's are high as hell. Go ahead, enjoy your very own "ultimate driving machine". good job:)
Comments
On the positive side, your car should still be in warranty for another year, even if you just buy it straight out.
regards,
kyfdx
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If the re-lease monthly payments are near what I can obtain on a new car lease (of a comparable car), of course I will get the new car. However, if the re-lease payments are significantly lower, then I would be tempted to re-lease the car. Any idea what the residual would be on another 3-year lease? Since usually a car loses a lot of value during the first year or so, would the residual for years 4-6 be better than the first 3 years? The current lease has a residual of .62 for a 36K mile/36 month lease. Also, is the residual on the re-lease set or is it negotiable?
Again, thanks for your help.
The reason you want to contact BMWFS first, is that they won't want to step on a dealer's toes, if they are also working with you on the car. Chances are, the dealer is going to want to make some profit on any kind of deal, which you may be able to cut out going straight to the bank.
Most banks use a set dollar amount for used cars, with a variance to take into account any mileage differences. Usually, as long as the car has a certain amount of equipment (auto, leather, etc), the residual is the same for all cars of that model with the same mileage regardless of extra options. Also, resale values for six year old cars can vary greatly, so the banks tend to be much more conservative on residual values (meaning: lower), which tends to push up the lease cost. Plus, there is usually not any manufacturer incentives on a used lease (CPO might be an exception), which also negatively affects them in comparison to new. Usually residuals are never negotiable. They may be different from different banks, but they are what they are.
Hope this helps a little,
kyfdx
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The dealer is the only one who can certify the car and it must be retailed through the center for CPO. The CPO is a great way to go if you want to keep the car and it's good for the dealer, too so they should be very helpful. They should be able to get #'s for you easily, as I've stated. You need the figures to decide but generally the used car lease may not be as attractive as a new car program.
regards,
kyfdx
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Sports + premium package. I've been told that dealers cost is 8% below MSRP. That said, I have seen this car at 48,375 MSRP (with premium+Sports package) and -8% (cost) would be approx 45,000. Would I be doing good getting it at 45-46K??????
** Also, you are saying NOT to contact the dealer ** ..... the dealer doesn't own the vehicle and doesn't have the title, BMW does, the dealer has been "out" of this deal since you tatoo'd the paperwork, anything they get involved in will cost you $$$ ...
Deal directly with BMWFS, they will be looking at the auction reports about 3/4 weeks before the lease end, then they will: 1.) decide what the loss could/might be vs residual .. 2.) they are looking for a buyer, preferably you. Thats because it costs money to transport, detail, then spend auction fee's and rep fee's to take it and sell it there ..... if the figures are right, you can have it "certified" at the Bimmer store and pay for the warranty ....... drop the vehicles info over at Real World Trade-In Values, and we can go from there.
Terry.
My lease is up 12/29/2004. I'll wait until 3 to 4 weeks before lease-end to see what BMWFS will offer me to re-lease (I already have the buy-out amount, it is in the contract, if I choose to buy the car). My car is in excellent condition. However, because it is stick shift, it probably would be harder for BMW to resell. This might motivate them into giving me a better lease rate. However, after the 6 years is up, it may be even more difficult to sell with a stick, therefore the residual may be lower, causing the monthly lease rate to be higher.
The only reason I want the dealer involved is so the car can be CPO'd. I want that protection.
So, for the lease, it really comes down to price... If they offer me a significantly lower monthly on a new lease, then I re-lease. If not, then the car goes...
Or, I can buy the car outright for $28.5K, but it would cost me sales tax ($2.3K+), cost of CPO ($1.1K+), and new tires ($1K+)(the tires have 31K original miles and still over 3mm tread depth).
...And then there is the other factor...my wife. She wants me to let the BMW go and buy a mini-van instead. She says its better to haul the kids and cargo. But I love my BMW.
Or, I can buy the car outright for $28.5K, but it would cost me sales tax ($2.3K+), cost of CPO ($1.1K+), and new tires ($1K+)(the tires have 31K original miles and still over 3mm tread depth).
... And then there is the other factor... my wife. She wants me to let the BMW go and buy a mini-van instead. She says its better to haul the kids and cargo. But I love my BMW.
=============================
Ah ha.! Now we have some Real Deal info ... it's a 02 530i with a handshaker and 31 klicks and your buy-out is $28,5 (as of today) ..
$28,5 is "about" auction money, so that price is fine, you keep saying "lease" forget the lease on a used vehicle, they don't work, you might find a better lease deal on the new ones come December ..
And speaking of December, BMWFS will looking at the auction reports in late November and if you do it right, you should get a better pay-off during that time ... hmm, the holidays, it's a handshaker, auctions are slow until mid January, prices have dropped since July, you get the picture .. and no, don't get the dealer involved unless it's for the CPO and that will happen last ..
Then of course, you have the "wife" factor and that I can't help ya with .l.o.l.... but at least you have enough info to defend yourself.
Terry.
Re-leasing was just an idea, that now I realize may be a bad idea.
Another question, then. Terry, when you say: "And speaking of December, BMWFS will looking at the auction reports in late November and if you do it right, you should get a better pay-off during that time." Are you saying that the buy-out price is negotiable? But I though it was set in the lease contract?
$31,294 .? then have Edmunds cut you a check for it .l.o.l. .. there's not a dealer between Seattle and San Onofre that will put $31,0 into a 02 530i with 31k "and" a handshaker, not when they can buy them in Riverside for the $28ish figure ... $36,0 is an *asking* retail price, and most dealers will cut them form the herd for the $32/$33 range because of the el' Manual tranny .....
Most buyouts are negotiable -if- (the word being here is, IF) they are done properly, that means they look at the auction reports for the month and make a decision, do we run it off to the auction and see X or do we get a full blown buyer now - so it will depend on current market values "then", not now .. in your case it's with BMWFS and they will negotiate if it's "you and them", get the dealer involved and you will get shut-down .. they know how many times you call, they keep notes and hold information, as most do, and of course there trying to keep business for their dealer network, it's just smart business ....
What the Bimmer might be worth in December, no one can say .. the 05's will be on the ground and based on the new style, there not killing anyone .. if I was to guess -and- it's "only" a guess, I would say the deep $26ish range, so you "might" see the $27ish range, I dunno and I hate guessing .l.o.l... and no, their not going to take $24 for a $27,0 vehicle .............................
Terry.
It's too bad that there's not more demand for a "handshaker" transmission and as a result the resale value suffers. The car is more lively and fun to drive with a stick. There is nothing like driving the canyon roads with a stick. And for me, that was a big selling point on getting the 530i. In fact, when I leased the car back in December 2001, I was able to get the car at just $1K over invoice because it had the stick and was not high in demand.
They are only available to the original purchaser or lessee. The cost for the 5-series is $2749.
That is pretty pricy, but if you can negotiate a lower buyout at the end of your lease, you can have your cake and eat it too (well, except for the $2749).
regards,
kyfdx
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regards,
kyfdx
It may sound expensive, but keeping the dealer out of your lease buyout deal might save you enough to make up for it.
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Does the new warranty have to be bought before the expiration of the 4yr/50K warranty? Does it require that the car be dealer serviced during the extended warranty period?
The dealer can buy a BMW lease for less than the customer can. BMW financial can gain nothing from negotiating with the buyer because each BMW center is obligated to buy the car back at the end of the lease for either the residual or current MMR. So, why would they sell it to the lessee for any lower amount than what was stated in the contract? Furthermore, if you're going to have the Certified (which is more than just an extended service contract and cheaper) than it MUST be retailed through a Center.
I can see the general advice is eliminating a party to the transaction but in this case it's best to at least let the dealer try to help because the service they can provided cannot be matched outside of their assistance. And, yeah, they'll make some money.
It seems are boy Livinbmw is a little confused, maybe alot ...
The Bimmer dealer is NOT obligated to buy anything .. but they do have FIRST option to purchase the vehicle for mmr and/or the residual - or send it south .. what that means is: it gives the dealer another opportunity to sell or re-lease the vehicle to the original customer, with little or no expense ... thats why I said: keep the dealer "out" of the deal, they will only have an interest in the vehicle "if you" have an interest in it ~ are you getting it now.? ...
This is nothing new, it's the same for every lease co. out there ..... the same goes for the Jag, Chevy, Benz, Mazda, Lincoln, Ford dealers, it's an another opportunity for the dealer to sell the vehicle again and it gives the lease co. a chance to move a vehicle quickly and not pay for the cost of transport, auction fee, detail, service and the rep fee's, and depending on the time of the year, type of vehicle, condition, it can cost $700/$900/$1,200+ a vehicle, or more .......
Every dealer gets a lease list every month for all of their "own" lease customers ... some might be 30 months "out", some might be 20 months "out" and in your case, your 4 months "out" and dealers are just looking for another opportunity to sell/lease another vehicle, it's smart, it's just good business and you can't blame them for the attempts .. hey, I've done it a thousand times .l.o.l. ... by the way, those were mmr prices that I gave you, so you have all the information that one could grasp for the next few days or so ..........................
Terry.
regards,
kyfdx
P.S.: For those of you not familiar with rroyce (Terry), he is a dealer principal that knows more about the car business than anyone else on Edmunds. His advice is almost always "right on the money" and has saved me money more than once. (also cost me money, when I ignored it..LOL).
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Just to be a little more specific so maybe their is a better understanding on how BMW Financial and BMW North America are different about lease and balloon notes; Each Center in the country has a lease portfolio and they can only reject a very specific and controlled number of lease returns each month. Generally, the Center is eager to have the inventory because as you know from high auction prices, the lease returns are the best way for a dealer to enhance their used car inventory, just ask the people at Crevier BMW or Momentum BMW. Look at the Certified Pre-Owned sales for BMW over the last three years and it's clear that the dealers are increasing sales and therefore need more inventory. In addition, the sales that do have BMW Financial vehicles or BMW North America Company cars are usually closed and only for BMW dealers.
I stand by my contention that I would want to have the most information possible in making the decision concerning certification of a lease end vehicle and would want the dealers offer for evaluation.
I'm not confused at all.
" buy them in Riverside for the $28ish figure "
There's been 2 (only 2 and probably at closed dealer only auctions) similar cars there at Riverside recently and one of them did sell at 28 but there was also another black one that went for 31 and I'll bet that the higher dollar one had a sport package. Sport is a big deal on a 530i. Plus, on top of the auction price, there's fees, transportation and reconditioning, right? I'd say the 28 figure is sort of a "low ball".
I just got an offer in the mail today from BMWFS to buy additional lease miles for .16/mile instead of .20 if I go over. Normally this can only be done at least 10 months from lease-end, but they made a mistake by sending the mailers out to everyone, so they will honor it.
At my current usage, I estimate the car will be over by about 1.5K miles (37.5K on a 36K lease) unless I severely curtail my driving these next few months. However, it I decide to let the car go at lease-end, maybe I shouldn't be so tight with putting the mileage on the car to stay within my allotment (currently I split my driving mileage between 2 cars), since I would not care that the car would be worth less with the higher mileage.
If I decide to buy the car, I probably would not want to run up the mileage before lease-end. But if I decide to let the car go, then would it be a bad thing to increase my driving of the car to get extra mileage out of it (and buy the extra mileage at .16/mile)? Free maintainance on MY2002 5-series was 3-years/36K, but warranty is 4-yrs/50K.
Bud, your singing to the choir here .. you don't have to sell me, I buy and sell 50/60 Bimmers a month .. I understand your view, but in this case it doesn't help Pen101 one bit ~ lets be honest here, thats the dealers glasses your lookin' thru ..
Sports Smorts, unless it's a pre-sold vehicle, handshakers aren't breakin' any sales records right now, and dealers just aren't going to "belly-up" to the bar and drop big cash in one ... as far as what it "might" do at the auction, thats just a throw of the dice, because they aren't burning any barns down in Dallas, Miami, Denver, Boston or at the big Manheim .. obviously none of your money is coming out of the "Hip National Bank" for "any" decisions here .l.o.l.. you will get whole different point of view when it's your money invested and your a "real" decision maker and no longer a cheerleader ..............
Terry
2) If you decide to buy the car and think you might buy the extended warranty or have it CPOed (result will be the same), you will probably want to extend the maintenance plan to match the warranty. On an '02 3-series, this costs $1384..I'm not sure of the charge on a 5-series, except that I am sure it is more. I'm not necessarily recommending the extended maintenance plan, but if you are going to the dealer for warranty work, it usually pays off.. Especially since it covers brakes for the duration. If you are going to extend the maintenance plan, you have to do it before your current maintenance plan expires at 3yr/36K miles.
regards,
kyfdx
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Where can I find invoice pricing information on the 5 series. Also, what is the going price for the 5 series in the Northern NJ/Manhattan area?
Thanks in advance.
If your not a BMW dealer and your moving 50 to 60 'bimmers a month that's a BIG #. I probably should be asking you about a job instead of verbally sparring here.
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This question sort of fits in with the current discussion: what is are the resale pluses or minuses for SMG? I can see that MT limits resale, but not sure how SMG is seen. I am liking SMG as it has an auto mode for other users besides myself, yet it allows manual shifting when I want to get the most out of the car. But, resale issues are an unknown for me, so I ask.
Thanks, John
Alternatively, can you point me in the right direction to determine invoice prices?
Thanks
Thanks.
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I appreicate as much input as possible. You can never overkill with too much advice.
I got my current car through ED but had to order it from a US dealer, pay for it then, eight weeks later, flew to Munich and picked it up. From there I shipped it back to the US and eventually picked it up at the dealer's.
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It sounds like getting the 2004's below invoice is not going to be as easy as it was with the 2003's since they were giving $3-$4K rebates on the 2003's due to the change of model.
I'm about to lease my first b-b-bimmer, a 525i (Black sapphire metallic, Black leather, Premium package, Steptronic auto.; Xenon; Satellite radio prep.).
My company is leasing the 525 for me. It will pay for about half the drive-off, and the monthly payment MUST be at or below $450 INCLUDING tax.
Despite my company paying for the lease, I still want to get the BEST deal since I might take over the payments at some point as well as I'll probably purchase the 525 at the end of the lease.
Is the following deal good?
Here are the numbers of the best quote in my area (L.A.):
Cap. cost: 42,435
Bank fee: 525
Total Cap: 42,960
Cap reduction: 5,756.36
Net Cap.: 37,203.64
Residual (61%): 27,477.45
Total Depreciation: 9,726.19
Monthly Depreciation: 270.17
Monthly Rent: 145.53
Subtotal: 415.70
Tax: 34.30
Monthly Payment: 450
Cap Reduction: 5,756.36
Tax: 474.90
Doc Fee: 45
License: 331
Gov. Fee: 5
1st Payment: 450
Total Drive-off: 7,062.26
Money Factor: .00225
Term: 36 months
Mileage: 10,000/yr. (which will not be a problem)
The salesman said that he was making just $900 over invoice, but according to my calculations, there's $260 unaccounted for--could this be an unstated acquisition fee, and if it is, then is $260 PLUS $525 (stated bank fee) a high price ($785) to pay for the privilege of a BMWFS lease?
$900 or $1,160 (with the mysterious $260) over invoice: is that good?
Is the "bank fee" usually added to the cap. cost? I've received quotes in which the bank fee is NOT added to the cap. cost rather it is added to the drive-off.
I found the buy rate (.00210) at one of the Edmunds' forums (thank you to the person who supplied it) and mentioned it to the salesman. He said that since he was waiving the security deposit, the money factor is increased .00015 (which I knew from the aforementioned post). But later I figured out that if I pay the refundable security deposit to get the lower money factor, I'll save about $360 over the lease term AND get my deposit back. Is there a reason NOT to pay the deposit? Has anyone had any problems getting the deposit back?
Any suggestions?
Thanks for your patience with my way-too-long post--it's the shaky nerves from being so close yet feeling so far away.
What is the MSRP of the car? Can't check the numbers without that.
Cap cost reductions are usually a bad idea, but considering your circumstances with the employer picking up the payment, it makes sense.
It looks like you are on the right track..
regards,
kyfdx
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Sorry I neglected the MSRP--it's $45,045.
BTW the invoice is $41,270 (incl. $695 destination).
Is $900 - $1,120 over invoice a good deal for a 2004 525i?
If the mysterious, unspecified $260 in the cap. cost is indeed the acquisition fee, then is the acquisition fee ($260) PLUS the (stated) bank fee ($525) too high ($785)?
Thanks again for the help--I'm feeling a little less shaky.
Of course the move was done such that my monthly payments were NOT changed while my total drive-off was actually a bit HIGHER ($43.31)--AHA!
When I challenged this, the salesman stated that the original quote was just an estimate and that the difference was insignificant--why are ALL the insignificant differences ALWAYS in favor of the dealership? (Rhetorical--AHA!)
So is this a common strategy, i.e., offer a quote with the bank fee in the drive-off then moving it to the cap. cost as the close of the deal nears?
Are there more benefits to the dealership that I'm not getting (PUN INTENDED)?
Thanks again.
regards,
kyfdx
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You can always try to negotiate a lower cap cost.. If that $260 bothers you, tell them that is what is stopping you from making the deal. Since you are making a big cap cost reduction, any money you save goes straight into your pocket. A fair deal all around, I think.
regards,
kyfdx
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