Considering how perky the xB I drove was, I wonder about the real difference in curb weights between the xA and xB and that of the Echo. The published weight figure for the Echo may not include air conditioning and almost certainly doesn't include power windows (which aren't available on Echos, IIRC), power locks and ABS, all of which are standard on Scions, so the real weight difference between comparably equipped Scions and Echos may be a hundred or so pounds less than the published figures.
Yesterday in traffic a Honda Element tried to out-accelerate my xB getting on a freeway on ramp. WIHTOUT EXCEEDING ANY SPEED LIMITS, I either beat him to the legally posted limit of 55 or he was intimidated by the extreme squareness of my car and backed off.
most on ramps narrow into one lane. i'm assuming the element driver backed off because you wouldn't let him pass and had more sense than to race with you.
I used to be a firm believer in "no break in" on modern cars. But, the tolerances on some cars (Toyota, Honda) is SO tight, based on the changes in performance and ease of revving that comes in around 7,000 - 10,000 miles.
For my Echo, I dumped the factory oil the afternoon after buying it in LA, put in Mobil 1, and drove it like the proverbial bat out of you know where, up to San Francisco. I figured the Mobil 1 has a good film strength and would protect the metal surfaces if there were any tight spots. I haven't had any subsequent problems, but the car only has 10,000 miles on it and early wear usually shows up only in the 100,000 mile range.
A few more cars and break in experiences later, I drove my Scion on the same route, with the factory oil, but kept it down to 65 (floating between 55 and 70 to vary the rpm, as recommended by the owner's manual, and got off the freeway every few offramps so I would go through a deceleration and acceleration cycle. Since the Scion has a stick shift, I also made sure I kept the rpms above 1,800 - I didn't want low rpms with heavy load, otherwise referred to as "lugging" the engine. This puts a lot of pressure on bearings at a time when oil flow is down.
My current thinking on break in is this:
For the first couple of hundred miles, if you can, just drive on city streets. Have a light throttle until fully warmed up, then don't exceed 3/4 throttle. Don't brake too hard - read the road ahead - because the pads need to seat on the rotors.
After the first couple of hundred miles, do normal freeway driving - basically don't do interstate runs at high speeds. However, occasionally do full throttle acceleration to help seat the rings (although they are supposedly "crosshatched" to seat on their own these days). Do this for another couple of hundred miles. It doesn't hurt to vary your freeway lane from fast lane to slow lane, and instead of grumbling about stop and go traffic, appreciate it for the break in effect. (If you have to freeway commute during the first couple of hundred miles, try to vary your lanes and your speeds.)
Thereafter, you can gradually increase full throttle runs closer and closer to redline. Listen to the engine...does it rev freely or seem tight? Don't keep the engine at high revs in any gear more than briefly at this stage. Also, use common sense on engine load and temperature factors - is it a very hot day, do you have a full passenger load and are running the air con? Then take it a little easier on the throttle.
After a thousand miles, it's "safely" broken in, but you'll notice more breaking in up to about 7,000 miles and a little more thereafter up to about 15,000 miles.
During the initial period, I believe in at least 3,000 mile oil changes. I used to believe in an early change at 500-1000 miles to flush out break in metals, but no longer believe break in metals have any effect on wear whatsoever, they are too microscopic.
Some people say leave the oil in until the first recommended change interval (5,000-7,500 miles on Toyotas, 5,000-10,000 miles on Hondas). Reason is, it's supposed to be a break in oil. In fact it isn't. Some say don't add synthetic, it will take longer to break in (or never break in). It may take longer, but you can add synthetic whenever you want based on your driving habits.
Personally I think most factory oil is very high quality and you might as well leave it in until at least 3,000 miles. Some say factory oils hafve a heavy dose of molybdenum to "seat" into metal surfaces and reduce wear. This may be true, based on a lot of used oil analyses I have seen. But Mobil 1 has decent levels of Moly too. Only Motorcraft/Conoco 5-20 is mysteriously devoid of moly.
Anyway, popular wisdom is, no matter what the manufacturer says, do 3,000 mile oil changes, and synthetic is for better quality protection, not longer oil changes. I haven't met a dealer yet that doesn't recommend 3,000 mile changes, no matter what the owner's manual says.
Toyota used to say keep in under 60mph for the first 200 miles. Get real. Maybe in Japan, not here. Just have a lighter touch on the throttle.
I put 320,800 miles on an original Ford Festiva engine changing the oil every 7,500 miles like the book said and adding a quart here and there when necessary. Never used synthetic oil. Once out of warranty I even went 10,000 miles more than a few times. Never used any additives either and always bought the cheapest gas. I think that the so called 3,000 mile oil change recommendation is pure oil industry propaganda that has taken on a life of its own and is repeated by many as mantra. Even if it did matter somewhere down the road, if you don't plan to keep a car much past 100,000 miles why even bother spending the additional money?
We were careful to observe all posted speed limits While pulling from the stop light to the required freeway speeds in order to safely merge. As I looked in my rear view mirror I received a mono-digital salute that, to me, indicated "Job well done"
Mine, too, streams down the window instead of spraying. I thought it was defective but hadn't gotten around to taking it in or trying to clean the nozzle with a needle (I thought maybe I got some wax in there). Maybe it's normal?
Beasport, if this is your first new car in 10 years, the best advice I can give you is to take it to the Toyota Express Lube service every 3,000 miles at the same dealer. That way if your oil pan ever gets chewed up from overtightening the drain plug (which it shouldn't, because the dealer uses fresh plug washers on every oil change), you can blame them and they will fix it.
I wouldn't pay for anything more than oil changes at the dealer until 15,000 miles, where you might (but don't have to, according to the owner's manual) spring for a minor service, and the 30,000 mile service, which is REALLY required according to the manual to maintain your warranty. Warning: most dealers will try to sell you $75 minor services ever 3,000 to 5,000 miles, and intermediate services at 15,000 miles. Your warranty does not require these. Conversely, most people go to Jiffy Lube to avoid the sales pressure, but nowadays Jiffy Lube is trying to sell "up" to services instead of just oil changes, so you are going to get the same pressure there, and they won't do as good a job as the dealer anyway. Whenever I have a car that has a good dealer nearby, I always prefer dealer service.
The express lane oil changes at Toyota are under $30, sometimes less once you are on their "coupon" mailing lists, which is less than Jiffy Lube, the oil is usually Toyota Motor Oil, which is fine, sometimes Pennzoil which is also great.
Most of what we gear heads on Edmunds rail about is irrelevant for 90% of the population. In other words, instead of worrying about whether Pennzoil is better than Castrol and synthetic is better than both, just go to the dealer, politely decline their offers to overservice your car (but DO remember the 30k service!), and sleep well at night.
In terms of breakin, if you aren't a gearhead, the quick story is this: Drive normally, save the "maniac" moments for 1,000 miles down the road.
Careful where you take your car for oil changes, Jiffy Lube is known for draining the tranny oil out of Subarus instead of the engine oil. It's happened more than once.
For daylight, push the tab that controls the day/nite setting towards the windshield (the day position) then angle the mirror so you can see properly ... but note that if you move the mirror enough, it will also give you the correctly framed rear view, but in a quasi "night time" appearance. Just experiment with position until the view is correctly framed and as bright as your bathroom mirror.
A writer for a national news publication is working on a story that seeks to find out what young people want in their cars. Any Scion owners out there? Anyone shop a Scion and decide against it? If neither, what do you like? If you’re under 25 years old and recently bought a car or will do so very soon, the writer would like to talk to you. You must be willing to be quoted by name. Send an email with your phone number to carguy147@hotmail.com no later than Tuesday, February 2/24/04 and an interview time can be setup.
I was bored today (Sunday) so I went to look at a few new models in person for the first time including the Chevy Aveo and the two Scions (also visited Mitsubishi, Kia, etc.)
I was thinking of replacing my 97 Camry LE with a larger 6 cyl. sedan (probably American)....however the xB is much to my liking. And the xA should appeal to the Civic hatchback of yesteryear-crowd.
Judging on the discussions so far, you can bet that year two will probably lead to a few sportier color choices! Two two xB's were both dark blue (almost black at certain angles). I'm 35 and I wouldn't mind the choice of something a bit brighter. At this point I think I'd opt for white!
I live in the midwest and have been waiting for Scion to start selling here. June of this year supposedly. I like the Xb I saw at this years local auto show. Now today I was reading an article about the chevy aveo in a magazine. It stated that the Scion Xb will only be available for one more year!!!! Has anyone heard That??????????What gives?
Scion will be around for a long, long, time. Nationwide sales begin June 2004 with the launch of the tC. For those of you waiting for a brighter color, the HOT LAVA will be out later this month. It's a bright orange which is available in Japan and only 2100 units will be sold in the US. In addition to the paint scheme it also has a color keyed rear spoiler, billet grille, floor and cup holder orange interior illumination and more. \ : ) Mackabee
why would they limit the color to 2100 ? They have some other cool colors offered on other cars sold in Japan that should be included with Scion.
I don't get that. I understand the SR idea, but they could sell the hot lava without that other neat stuff on cars past the first 2100 hot lavas. That is not a lot of cars. I heard 2-3 per dealer. In UT country (Austin,Texas) they could sell anything orange.
What do you mean by individual models rotated frequently? murf, remember this is a new brand in the US, we don't want to flood this market and then have it go flat. Scion is a very distinct brand and Toyota wants to keep it that way. : ) Mackabee
What moparbad said. I doubt Scion has set its strategy in stone, but from what I understand, there won't be a second generation xB. Cars will be replaced with different models altogether.
I think what they mean is, instead of "updating" the xB (like various generations of Corollas and Civics), Toyota is planning on just coming out with a totally new "novelty" vehicle.
In reality, I am sure the xB will be around for quite a while.
After all, look how long the New Beetle has been around without any significant changes to its looks.
There is a local (Utica, MI) Lexus dealer that has a xB and is asking $23,900. Auto with 19" TRD wheels and 58 miles. Anyone that pays that much is crazy!!
I had wanted a Prius, but found out they were sold on what amounts to a lottery basis. (I found this out three months AFTER I put a deposit on it. That REALLY pissed me off.) I can't afford to wait that long, so the Scion xB is a happy second choice.
Automatic, black cherry pearl. 9-spoke wheel rims, 6 CD sound system, cruise control, door-sill enhancements (I know they're silly but they look cool), cargo net, cargo cover, carbon-fiber B-pillar appliques, and carpet mats. All for $16,288 plus 7% sales tax.
I will take possession this weekend! Woo-hoo!
It was a hard choice between the A and B. I really felt the A had significantly more "zip" to it. The B was rather reluctant in its acceleration, but not ridiculously so. But I didn't like how annoying it was to flip down the back seats in the A. You have to first scoot the front seats nearly all the way forward before there's room to flip the back seats. I also just "felt" better in the B. The A felt a little claustrophobic, like the ceiling was closing in on you-- and I'm only 5'5".
My husband could not have been more surprised by my choice-- he was sure I was gonna go with the "cuter" and more conventional A. Surprising him was part of the fun, too.
Just wanted to effuse, and introduce myself to the group.
Congrats. Please let us know how you like it. So you live in Atlanta? I lived in Athens for a while years ago and loved it. So warm compared to Michigan!
I was just looking at the car today i like it pretty much the only option i said i whanted is automic,and the cold air intake (12 extrea horsepower and 5 extrea miles to the gallon) the price came too 305 month 0 down they have a bunch of them here in pittsbrugh PA, shuld i go for it?????
The sales person said if i whant the will have a super charged up grade that will make 40 more horse power it should be out within the next 4-6 months he is not sure but he said it should cost 600-800 dollers, what are yalls thoughts on that??(so with the could air take that's going to be 160 total horse power)
He said yes it does to all pepole who buy the xb before 3/31/04 and pre oder it,if you do not belive me call any pittsburgh PA toyota dealer know if you wait after that time you might be right .....................................
I asked my dealer about the AEM cold-air intake, and he said they have it installed on one of their manual 5-speeds. He said he could not discern any difference in the car's performance. I wonder would it make more of a difference in the automatic, which is only a 4-speed? Any thoughts?
One more question: what effect would the cold-air intake and/or a turbocharging kit have on the car's MPG?
Only 48 hours before I'm drivin' my Scion! (On sudden inspiration I decided to add to it the auto-dimming rear-view mirror with the built-in compass. I have never "ordered" a car like this before, and I am enjoying the process, and especially the no-haggle pricing.)
Probably even less difference on the automatic. An intake that flows more freely would help at high rpm, peak air flow, and the automatic takes longer to get there, mostly due to gearing.
Careful - you trade of a lot of intake noise for some intake systems. Only you can decide if it's worth it or not.
Not sure about your dealer's info, trunks. Some intake comparisons, apparently done independently, I've seen on Scion enthusiast sites show at most a 5 hp increase in horses at the wheels. A modest gain, but not much money either.
Juice, there weren't many complaints about noise, other than a little whistling.
There have been lots of discussion of turbo and super chargers. Most cost estimates seem to be in the $2,000 and up range.
List price on a TRD supercharger for a 1.8L in Matrix or Corolla is $2995.00 (not installed). The lowest price for any Toyota supercharger I've ever seen is $1795 for the 3.4L in the Tacoma. It is unreasonable to believe that a supercharger for the xB would only be $600 IMO.
well i guess he does not know what he is talking about but about the air in take it is 12 hores and 5 miles to the gallon for 369.000 seems worth it to me i did not belive it was that much becuse all i was hereing so i just know got back from pepboy and they said my horse power is 119 (so not qiut 120)they ran it on one of the plates.(they did not even charge me for doing that) I just got it this morning they only took 30 mins to put in the air intake the xb cost me 301 a monthfor 60 months at 3.8 percent 0 down loving it so far this will be my third car i have geico gave me a really good discount with my other two cars this is only costing me $236.000 extra a year:)
Comments
WIHTOUT EXCEEDING ANY SPEED LIMITS, I either beat him to the legally posted limit of 55 or he was intimidated by the extreme squareness of my car and backed off.
For my Echo, I dumped the factory oil the afternoon after buying it in LA, put in Mobil 1, and drove it like the proverbial bat out of you know where, up to San Francisco. I figured the Mobil 1 has a good film strength and would protect the metal surfaces if there were any tight spots. I haven't had any subsequent problems, but the car only has 10,000 miles on it and early wear usually shows up only in the 100,000 mile range.
A few more cars and break in experiences later, I drove my Scion on the same route, with the factory oil, but kept it down to 65 (floating between 55 and 70 to vary the rpm, as recommended by the owner's manual, and got off the freeway every few offramps so I would go through a deceleration and acceleration cycle. Since the Scion has a stick shift, I also made sure I kept the rpms above 1,800 - I didn't want low rpms with heavy load, otherwise referred to as "lugging" the engine. This puts a lot of pressure on bearings at a time when oil flow is down.
My current thinking on break in is this:
For the first couple of hundred miles, if you can, just drive on city streets. Have a light throttle until fully warmed up, then don't exceed 3/4 throttle. Don't brake too hard - read the road ahead - because the pads need to seat on the rotors.
After the first couple of hundred miles, do normal freeway driving - basically don't do interstate runs at high speeds. However, occasionally do full throttle acceleration to help seat the rings (although they are supposedly "crosshatched" to seat on their own these days). Do this for another couple of hundred miles. It doesn't hurt to vary your freeway lane from fast lane to slow lane, and instead of grumbling about stop and go traffic, appreciate it for the break in effect. (If you have to freeway commute during the first couple of hundred miles, try to vary your lanes and your speeds.)
Thereafter, you can gradually increase full throttle runs closer and closer to redline. Listen to the engine...does it rev freely or seem tight? Don't keep the engine at high revs in any gear more than briefly at this stage. Also, use common sense on engine load and temperature factors - is it a very hot day, do you have a full passenger load and are running the air con? Then take it a little easier on the throttle.
After a thousand miles, it's "safely" broken in, but you'll notice more breaking in up to about 7,000 miles and a little more thereafter up to about 15,000 miles.
During the initial period, I believe in at least 3,000 mile oil changes. I used to believe in an early change at 500-1000 miles to flush out break in metals, but no longer believe break in metals have any effect on wear whatsoever, they are too microscopic.
Some people say leave the oil in until the first recommended change interval (5,000-7,500 miles on Toyotas, 5,000-10,000 miles on Hondas). Reason is, it's supposed to be a break in oil. In fact it isn't. Some say don't add synthetic, it will take longer to break in (or never break in). It may take longer, but you can add synthetic whenever you want based on your driving habits.
Personally I think most factory oil is very high quality and you might as well leave it in until at least 3,000 miles. Some say factory oils hafve a heavy dose of molybdenum to "seat" into metal surfaces and reduce wear. This may be true, based on a lot of used oil analyses I have seen. But Mobil 1 has decent levels of Moly too. Only Motorcraft/Conoco 5-20 is mysteriously devoid of moly.
Anyway, popular wisdom is, no matter what the manufacturer says, do 3,000 mile oil changes, and synthetic is for better quality protection, not longer oil changes. I haven't met a dealer yet that doesn't recommend 3,000 mile changes, no matter what the owner's manual says.
Toyota used to say keep in under 60mph for the first 200 miles. Get real. Maybe in Japan, not here. Just have a lighter touch on the throttle.
As I looked in my rear view mirror I received a mono-digital salute that, to me, indicated "Job well done"
It has nothing to do with the coolant level.
There's a big book in the glove compartment that explains stuff like that.
-juice
Beasport, if this is your first new car in 10 years, the best advice I can give you is to take it to the Toyota Express Lube service every 3,000 miles at the same dealer. That way if your oil pan ever gets chewed up from overtightening the drain plug (which it shouldn't, because the dealer uses fresh plug washers on every oil change), you can blame them and they will fix it.
I wouldn't pay for anything more than oil changes at the dealer until 15,000 miles, where you might (but don't have to, according to the owner's manual) spring for a minor service, and the 30,000 mile service, which is REALLY required according to the manual to maintain your warranty. Warning: most dealers will try to sell you $75 minor services ever 3,000 to 5,000 miles, and intermediate services at 15,000 miles. Your warranty does not require these. Conversely, most people go to Jiffy Lube to avoid the sales pressure, but nowadays Jiffy Lube is trying to sell "up" to services instead of just oil changes, so you are going to get the same pressure there, and they won't do as good a job as the dealer anyway. Whenever I have a car that has a good dealer nearby, I always prefer dealer service.
The express lane oil changes at Toyota are under $30, sometimes less once you are on their "coupon" mailing lists, which is less than Jiffy Lube, the oil is usually Toyota Motor Oil, which is fine, sometimes Pennzoil which is also great.
Most of what we gear heads on Edmunds rail about is irrelevant for 90% of the population. In other words, instead of worrying about whether Pennzoil is better than Castrol and synthetic is better than both, just go to the dealer, politely decline their offers to overservice your car (but DO remember the 30k service!), and sleep well at night.
In terms of breakin, if you aren't a gearhead, the quick story is this: Drive normally, save the "maniac" moments for 1,000 miles down the road.
Oops!
-juice
Yes, the rear washer is supposed to trickle onto the window.
If it sprayed a mist, it would go into the vacuum behind the car, This way all the fluid goes on the glass.
I find it more comfortable than our Expedition.
I made the arrangements through e-mail and bought it when I was in San Jose.
There are several dealers in the San Diego area.
You can't buy a car on the internet, it's illegal. You have to do it at a dealer.
Here's your 15 minutes...
-juice
I was thinking of replacing my 97 Camry LE with a larger 6 cyl. sedan (probably American)....however the xB is much to my liking. And the xA should appeal to the Civic hatchback of yesteryear-crowd.
Judging on the discussions so far, you can bet that year two will probably lead to a few sportier color choices! Two two xB's were both dark blue (almost black at certain angles). I'm 35 and I wouldn't mind the choice of something a bit brighter. At this point I think I'd opt for white!
--Dan
-juice
: )
Mackabee
I don't get that. I understand the SR idea, but they could sell the hot lava without that other neat stuff on cars past the first 2100 hot lavas. That is not a lot of cars. I heard 2-3 per dealer. In UT country (Austin,Texas) they could sell anything orange.
: )
Mackabee
In reality, I am sure the xB will be around for quite a while.
After all, look how long the New Beetle has been around without any significant changes to its looks.
-juice
Automatic, black cherry pearl. 9-spoke wheel rims, 6 CD sound system, cruise control, door-sill enhancements (I know they're silly but they look cool), cargo net, cargo cover, carbon-fiber B-pillar appliques, and carpet mats. All for $16,288 plus 7% sales tax.
I will take possession this weekend! Woo-hoo!
It was a hard choice between the A and B. I really felt the A had significantly more "zip" to it. The B was rather reluctant in its acceleration, but not ridiculously so. But I didn't like how annoying it was to flip down the back seats in the A. You have to first scoot the front seats nearly all the way forward before there's room to flip the back seats. I also just "felt" better in the B. The A felt a little claustrophobic, like the ceiling was closing in on you-- and I'm only 5'5".
My husband could not have been more surprised by my choice-- he was sure I was gonna go with the "cuter" and more conventional A. Surprising him was part of the fun, too.
Just wanted to effuse, and introduce myself to the group.
Elizabeth
Atlanta, GA
-juice
-juice
One more question: what effect would the cold-air intake and/or a turbocharging kit have on the car's MPG?
Only 48 hours before I'm drivin' my Scion! (On sudden inspiration I decided to add to it the auto-dimming rear-view mirror with the built-in compass. I have never "ordered" a car like this before, and I am enjoying the process, and especially the no-haggle pricing.)
Elizabeth
Careful - you trade of a lot of intake noise for some intake systems. Only you can decide if it's worth it or not.
-juice
Juice, there weren't many complaints about noise, other than a little whistling.
There have been lots of discussion of turbo and super chargers. Most cost estimates seem to be in the $2,000 and up range.
It is unreasonable to believe that a supercharger for the xB would only be $600 IMO.
-juice
p.s the color is cranberry
I emailed scion about the supercharger and they said there is not one coming? I thought I read somewhere that there was. Strange.