I remember when I got the PRO I was ecstatic that I would have the same tires as in F1 - little did I know that while Schumi can drive in the rain at Spa on those Potenzas, my PRO could barely be considred safe on them...
Firestone FR680-2 were the stock ones on my '99LX Pro. Yet there's a Firestone FR680 that is apparently different in some way. I can't tell from the outside. Could be different compound, could be different number of plies or materials used in them. But the stock tires have that "-2" for a reason.
Usually the aftermarket is better as the car mfr states a cost target and sometimes a tire mfr will oblige them by removing a ply or something like that, which is what I think happened in the Explorer tire fiasco.
But most car mfrs place the cheapest all-season tires they can get. Sometimes not though. I'd probably stick with the stock tires until they wore out unless I thought they were unsafe, as was the case with the Firestone FR680-2s. Then, I'd look for a better tire, if I thought I could improve upon it, or just to try out something new.
The tire manufacturers and the OEM industry are both quite specific that OEM tires are model specific.
As for: "I wonder if this is just another smart invention from those lawyers.", I'd give 25 cents to know why you made that particular statement! More than that I had best not say!
Three equipment trims. Three gasoline engines 1.4l (80hp), 1.6l (105hp), and 2.0l (150hp). Two diesel 2.0l engines (borrowed from Peugeot-Citroën Hdi) will follow from next year (90/110hp). All trims will be equipped with eight airbags and Electronic Stability Control. The price of the base model is expected to be around 14350 euros.
200hp is too much for FWD. You'll end up with torque steer like crazy, and a lack of balance.
I agree, the 130hp P5 is already fun, no torque steer whatsoever. Up the ante a little, sure, but any more than 160hp or so and it's gotta get AWD too.
I wonder if Mazda got it wrong in the first place, or if the spelling was intentional. I've heard stories that "Sea Doo" was supposed to be called "Sea Dog" (which makes a whole heck of lot more sense if you think about it), but they spelled it wrong on their letter head and could not afford to have it changed. Then the name just stuck.
"Protege" in Portuguese means "Protect", I wonder if that was intentional.
I though Protegé is a French word (well actually it's Protégé in French, it means something that you can depends and rely on, a tad like a servant, and it can indeed protect you).
so now the protégé can fly with his own wings and probably surpass that master. He is no longer to be called as Protegé. Mazda3 is henceforth his new name.
I would have waited for the 3 myself, but the stars were perfectly aligned for a new 6, so I jumped the gun ... and don't regret it. Doubt I would have - either way - the 3 looks to be another class-leading champion car in the making from Mazda!
2.3l 160Hp will be a great fit over current noisy and heavier 2.0l 130HP, when it comes to AWD it will beg for more HP and hopefully we can get Japan version of 2.3l normaly aspirated with 178hp!
It should handle like a dream even better than PRO5 while it will be more civilized over bumps and more stabile all due to the same rear susp. set-up from Mazda6/Focus/euro-Mondeo.
Sorry to bug you bug I don't understand those explanations from the first sentence!
Why paths in 3D can be characterized by 6 degrees of freedom?
- First the motion of the rear wheel is almost up and down, at least in the short range that the wheels can move.
- The only parameters that are critical in control the rear suspension are toe-in-toe-out and camber (TITO & CB). As the traveling course of the wheel is small, the TITO & CB functions can be approximated by the their first derivatives. In other words, one need only two parameters to represent the two polar coordinates in the 3D world that parametrize the orientation of the wheel if you prefer.
I can hardly count six. What is wrong? I would like to understand how different multilink designs work. Is there any website that explain clearly? It take me for a while to understand how the TTL (Protege) works until I saw the Mazda US patent.
Sorry Dinu, no. I have just the patent, written in a strange and obscure language that explains in a compact way few strategic characteristics of the TTL design like how the links are connected. The effects on toe and camber controls are even not explained, but with a little patience, one can work over the fuzzy text and figure it out.
Mazda uses many different rear suspension designs. I think the Millenia uses the true 5-links (?), the Mazda6 uses the E-type multilink, Protege prefers TTL, and finally Mazda3 adopts for the Control-Blade multi-link that originated from Ford.
I do google searches now and then, but there is no good link that explain clearly different suspension setup and designs.
"Why paths in 3D can be characterized by 6 degrees of freedom?"
That's what the Mercedes engineer said. I think it includes rotation on each axis. When Mercedes introduced the 5-link rear in the W201(190E) back in '84, an editor in CAR accused that the 5 links held the suspension frozen & only the deflection of the bushings allows the suspension to move a little. So a reply letter from M-B came in a later issue.
If there are 6 links, then all degrees of the freedom are restricted.
"- First the motion of the rear wheel is almost up and down, at least in the short range that the wheels can move."
That's actually a long range. Have you seen a traditional French car? W/o the right pathway of travel movement, it can be disastrous, as seen in front of my eyes - a Renault Alliance convertible spun 180 degrees on the fwy just by jerking the steering too much during lane change. That Renault 9/11 design is a completely vertical(no camber change) travel for optimal ride comfort, so when the body rolls...
When a car corners, it rolls. So what should the tire angle be? What if a bump/dip is thrown into the equation during cornering? A non-ind suspension can handle a speed bump w/ perfect camber, but ind... If the whole pathway doesn't have to be that complicated, then the design can get away w/ fewer than 5 links.
That's actually a long range. Have you seen a traditional French car? W/o the right pathway of travel movement, it can be disastrous, as seen in front of my eyes - a Renault Alliance convertible spun 180 degrees on the fwy just by jerking the steering too much during lane change. That Renault 9/11 design is a completely vertical(no camber change) travel for optimal ride comfort, so when the body rolls...
Yes! I'm french and living in France right now. The Renault9 is my first car. The 2CV has amazing wheels traveling course but it's virtually impossible to make the car roll over! Few of my friends get an old 2CV, and they have a large empty field for making the bet: who can make the car roll will win a reward. I can tell you no one does despite of their extreme imagination and talents!
And then there is those Renault5, when you take a corner, you can touch the ground with your arm!
But that was 30 years ago.
btw, one of my mechanical exam in the high school was studying the dynamic response of the 2CV suspension. I get maximum note, and I'm still very proud. ;-)
From the MX Sportif it looks to be proprietary. If it shapes up to be like the 6 with the irreplaceable stereo I will truly be disappointed. This unfortunate move will force me into a Protege5 or maybe a Focus PZEV. Not that those are bad choices, but still, the Mazda3 seems optimal.
You got cool school curriculum. I just thought of having a good science museum showing all those multi-link-suspension demonstrations in motion for people like myself & all kids so we'll all turn into experts & maybe great designers/inventors as well.
MotorWeek television tested a 2CV long time ago & pointed out its steering gets heavier the harder you corner. I thought that was the reason drivers won't crank the steering too hard to get into trouble.
While I really like the color, I wish Mazda had kept it a limited production color as with the MS Protege, and Miata SE & SV as opposed to making it available on every car they make. Oh well. I don't like the CD being so high, but I guess the strong engine should make up for it. Still, it could have wind noise issues which a lot of people already complain about with the Protege.
I had read 6 airbags, which would be the two front, two side on the front seats, and 2 side curtain bags. It seems like a waste to not even offer all the airbags on a car that has been designed to have them. Side curtain air bags are going to become much more prevalent in a few years after IIHS does more side crash tests. Mazda should get a jump on thing by offering them now.
Pretty similar in features to current P5s. I'm sorry to see they aren't offering the yellow they currently have on the P5. The P5 looks great in that color.
Orange. Ick. I love the fruit, I hate the color on anything but.
in equipments - 6-sp everything plus the world's only instant-&-smooth clutch-pedal-less manual. Even the present old Jetta base model is available w/ optional ESP for less than $300.
icvci, We decided against the P5 for right now and are holding off our purchase until we can see what the 3 is like up close and personal (and how much this kid is actually going to cost us ). We really like the 6 but probably don't need the extra size so the 3 seems like the logical choice.
I know you know a lot about the 3 so I have to ask, why did you choose to buy the P5 now instead of waiting for the 3? The 3 seems like it is going to be better in every way and I'm just curious as to why someone with advance knowledge would buy the "old" model?
I still like the P5 an awful lot but my wife thinks it "looks like a frog". So it's pretty much out of the question for now.
Price - There most likely won't be incentives on the 3 for awhile. The P5 is a ton of car for the money and I couldn't afford it if my payment went over $250 a month.
Styling - I love the way the P5 looks. And I like it more than the 3. I think it looks more mature, if that makes any sense. If the wife thinks it looks like a frog, maybe you could lower it. I don't think it would add that much to the purchase price. A frog eh? I can see the Matrix/Vibe being frogs but, the longer nose makes the P5 look a little more slender to me.
Unique - The Focus, Volvo 40 series and the Mazda3 will all be built on the same platform. I like the fact that the P5 is the P5. It doesn't share anything.
Build - I know it's silly but, I really like the fact it's built in Japan. We'll see how that effects quality. Mazda has been doing a whole lot of work to improve quality of every vehicle they sell. So, the 3 should be an excellent vehicle.
Time was right - My Civic wasn't getting any newer and the used car market isn't getting any better. I figured I needed to sell the Civic while the market would give me more for a Honda.
I look at Mazdas all day long and I had to have one. I just couldn't stand any more time driving my not-too-fun Civic. Of course, my Civic was only $13,400 compared to (about) $16,500 for the P5. So, I could have made it fun. I'm not that guy any more though, I wanted a car with fun built in.
I'm pretty sure you won't see a 3 in showrooms here until January. (At the earliest.)
Best case for me would be the 3 interior in the P5 exterior.
Comments
I remember when I got the PRO I was ecstatic that I would have the same tires as in F1 - little did I know that while Schumi can drive in the rain at Spa on those Potenzas, my PRO could barely be considred safe on them...
Dinu
Usually the aftermarket is better as the car mfr states a cost target and sometimes a tire mfr will oblige them by removing a ply or something like that, which is what I think happened in the Explorer tire fiasco.
But most car mfrs place the cheapest all-season tires they can get. Sometimes not though. I'd probably stick with the stock tires until they wore out unless I thought they were unsafe, as was the case with the Firestone FR680-2s. Then, I'd look for a better tire, if I thought I could improve upon it, or just to try out something new.
As for: "I wonder if this is just another smart invention from those lawyers.", I'd give 25 cents to know why you made that particular statement!
you don't even have to pay 25 cents to see it!
That was neat!
Click on the photo to get a larger view.
-juice
Bruno
I agree, the 130hp P5 is already fun, no torque steer whatsoever. Up the ante a little, sure, but any more than 160hp or so and it's gotta get AWD too.
-juice
The 5-door (or Sport as it will be called) will only come with the 2.3L engine.
-juice
It is (and soon you can say "was") called the Protege
I wonder if Mazda got it wrong in the first place, or if the spelling was intentional. I've heard stories that "Sea Doo" was supposed to be called "Sea Dog" (which makes a whole heck of lot more sense if you think about it), but they spelled it wrong on their letter head and could not afford to have it changed. Then the name just stuck.
"Protege" in Portuguese means "Protect", I wonder if that was intentional.
-juice
Bruno
BUT
Protégé means what Bruno said
AND
Protegé is probably the English spelling of a French-language noun (word).
Dinu
Fluent in Français, English, Româneste and Mazdaïc (the language of Mazda fans)
It should handle like a dream even better than PRO5 while it will be more civilized over bumps and more stabile all due to the same rear susp. set-up from Mazda6/Focus/euro-Mondeo.
please elaborate, thanks.
Bruno
See #260 & #261.
Why paths in 3D can be characterized by 6 degrees of freedom?
- First the motion of the rear wheel is almost up and down, at least in the short range that the wheels can move.
- The only parameters that are critical in control the rear suspension are toe-in-toe-out and camber (TITO & CB). As the traveling course of the wheel is small, the TITO & CB functions can be approximated by the their first derivatives. In other words, one need only two parameters to represent the two polar coordinates in the 3D world that parametrize the orientation of the wheel if you prefer.
I can hardly count six. What is wrong? I would like to understand how different multilink designs work. Is there any website that explain clearly? It take me for a while to understand how the TTL (Protege) works until I saw the Mazda US patent.
Bruno
Dinu
Mazda uses many different rear suspension designs. I think the Millenia uses the true 5-links (?), the Mazda6 uses the E-type multilink, Protege prefers TTL, and finally Mazda3 adopts for the Control-Blade multi-link that originated from Ford.
I do google searches now and then, but there is no good link that explain clearly different suspension setup and designs.
Bruno
http://autozine.kyul.net/technical_school/tech_index.htm
That's what the Mercedes engineer said. I think it includes rotation on each axis. When Mercedes introduced the 5-link rear in the W201(190E) back in '84, an editor in CAR accused that the 5 links held the suspension frozen & only the deflection of the bushings allows the suspension to move a little. So a reply letter from M-B came in a later issue.
If there are 6 links, then all degrees of the freedom are restricted.
"- First the motion of the rear wheel is almost up and down, at least in the short range that the wheels can move."
That's actually a long range. Have you seen a traditional French car? W/o the right pathway of travel movement, it can be disastrous, as seen in front of my eyes - a Renault Alliance convertible spun 180 degrees on the fwy just by jerking the steering too much during lane change. That Renault 9/11 design is a completely vertical(no camber change) travel for optimal ride comfort, so when the body rolls...
When a car corners, it rolls. So what should the tire angle be? What if a bump/dip is thrown into the equation during cornering? A non-ind suspension can handle a speed bump w/ perfect camber, but ind... If the whole pathway doesn't have to be that complicated, then the design can get away w/ fewer than 5 links.
Yes! I'm french and living in France right now. The Renault9 is my first car. The 2CV has amazing wheels traveling course but it's virtually impossible to make the car roll over! Few of my friends get an old 2CV, and they have a large empty field for making the bet: who can make the car roll will win a reward. I can tell you no one does despite of their extreme imagination and talents!
And then there is those Renault5, when you take a corner, you can touch the ground with your arm!
But that was 30 years ago.
btw, one of my mechanical exam in the high school was studying the dynamic response of the 2CV suspension. I get maximum note, and I'm still very proud. ;-)
MotorWeek television tested a 2CV long time ago & pointed out its steering gets heavier the harder you corner. I thought that was the reason drivers won't crank the steering too hard to get into trouble.
Expect 2 front, and maybe just maybe SAB/SAC, but no more.
Dinu
Orange. Ick. I love the fruit, I hate the color on anything but.
See the last pic on the page and compare it to the ones we've seen of the M3 HB - can you say "Mazda got cloned?"
Dinu
VW prices will be higher than just about anyone else's in the same class. Premium price, premium equipment levels.
I'm more concerned about reliability, look no further than the ignition coil debacle.
-juice
Personally, I think the 3 looks better too. And I can tell you, the interior of the 3 is on par with anything VW has done to date.
We decided against the P5 for right now and are holding off our purchase until we can see what the 3 is like up close and personal (and how much this kid is actually going to cost us
I know you know a lot about the 3 so I have to ask, why did you choose to buy the P5 now instead of waiting for the 3? The 3 seems like it is going to be better in every way and I'm just curious as to why someone with advance knowledge would buy the "old" model?
I still like the P5 an awful lot but my wife thinks it "looks like a frog". So it's pretty much out of the question for now.
Diapers...$600 per year.
Formula...$400.
Knowing we'll save half because males only wear one ear ring: priceless! LOL
-juice
Price - There most likely won't be incentives on the 3 for awhile. The P5 is a ton of car for the money and I couldn't afford it if my payment went over $250 a month.
Styling - I love the way the P5 looks. And I like it more than the 3. I think it looks more mature, if that makes any sense. If the wife thinks it looks like a frog, maybe you could lower it. I don't think it would add that much to the purchase price. A frog eh? I can see the Matrix/Vibe being frogs but, the longer nose makes the P5 look a little more slender to me.
Unique - The Focus, Volvo 40 series and the Mazda3 will all be built on the same platform. I like the fact that the P5 is the P5. It doesn't share anything.
Build - I know it's silly but, I really like the fact it's built in Japan. We'll see how that effects quality. Mazda has been doing a whole lot of work to improve quality of every vehicle they sell. So, the 3 should be an excellent vehicle.
Time was right - My Civic wasn't getting any newer and the used car market isn't getting any better. I figured I needed to sell the Civic while the market would give me more for a Honda.
I look at Mazdas all day long and I had to have one. I just couldn't stand any more time driving my not-too-fun Civic. Of course, my Civic was only $13,400 compared to (about) $16,500 for the P5. So, I could have made it fun. I'm not that guy any more though, I wanted a car with fun built in.
I'm pretty sure you won't see a 3 in showrooms here until January. (At the earliest.)
Best case for me would be the 3 interior in the P5 exterior.