Honda Odyssey Future Models

lekn · August 2004

> From the info posted on the PAX system, there's no
> reason to assume that the tires will be any more
> (or less) noisy than a normal tire. If anything,
> there is less difference in the tire from a
> standard one than there is in a traditional runflat.

The main difference from a standard tire is that PAX has a lower profile. This is to reduce the distance to the support ring when the tire is running flat. And as you know, while lower profile tires could improve handling, it *may* adversely affect ride and noise.

stickguy · August 2004

it's all speculation until we can get real-world reviews and test drives.

Call me an optimist, but I don't see Honda putting a tire on a peoplemover that will have aharch, noisy ride. THey aren't that stupid (I hope), plus they have been bashed for years for having the "noisy" van.

At least a lower profile tire should give crisper handling (unlike some of the competition that tend to wallow).

fbear · August 2004

Thanks for the additional info, lekn. I guess it should not be surpring that the PAX site mentions the date when the Renault began offering the PAX system as standard but does not mention that they later stopped.

I am still inclined to trust Honda not to make a huge blunder on this...even if Honda dealers are about the only place to get repairs, our family rarely, if ever, ventures anywhere that is not within 120 miles of the nearest Honda dealer so I won't worry too much.

mochisushi · August 2004

QUOTE: "...our family rarely, if ever, ventures anywhere that is not within 120 miles of the nearest Honda dealer so I won't worry too much."

The problem in Colorado is that, by law, all car dealers (and liquor stores) are closed on Sunday. I think it is a dumb law and some have tried to repeal it, but there has been a huge resistance by the dealers and liquor stores...They like the day off.

lok888 · August 2004

I was looking at the latest spy photos of 2005 Odyssey. There are window visor like trims stick on the window frames. Are they window visor? They look like a factory installed.

stickguy · August 2004

they look like window visors, and are probably an accessory. Other spy shot vans didn't have them, and I highly doubt they will be standard.

user777 · August 2004

you write:
At least a lower profile tire should give crisper handling (unlike some of the competition that tend to wallow).

while that may be true, doesn't that lower-profile compromise the ability of the tire to remain in contact with the road surface, specifically in turns?

ateixeira · August 2004

I guess we don't know the tire sizes yet? To me a lower profile is better - handling and steering feel improve. Ride is a little stiffer but the suspension can tune that out, especially since it was designed that way to begin with.

This additional PAX info puts me more at ease. It's safer for my wife to drive home than to stop on a busy highway and change it herself, or have to wait for roadside assistance again in heavy traffic.

I wonder if towing affects the range you can drive with no pressure? Maybe you could just slow down a bit.

Pics are growing on me, definitely styled better than the Sienna (not that it matters much to me in a van).

-juice

stickguy · August 2004

as Juice pointed out, lowere profile tires actually increase the ability to keep the tire contact patch on the road, since they don't roll over on the sidewall as easily.

rorr · August 2004

I think that those who are voicing approvals of the system are generally speaking in favor of the concept of run-flats, not necessarily the PAX system. The problem I have with PAX is that the technology (both the wheel rim and tire itself) are proprietary to Michelin.

Yes, Goodyear, Dunlop and others have been licensed to manufacuture PAX tires, however, they will have to pay royalites to Michelin for any PAX tires they produce, further lining the pockets of Michelin. The chances of anyone here seeing PAX tires from a Michelin competitor anytime in the foreseeable future are slim at best. In the meantime, your "choice" (should you have the PAX system on your vehicle) is Michelin or nobody. What happens if you don't like the ride? What happens if it is determined that these tires wear rapidly (as many other run-flats do)? You can't change these out for conventional tires; the rims are wrong.

Doesn't anybody remember the TRX wheel and tire debacle from Michelin in the '80s???

And if there is a true performance benefit, why don't we see these tires on a sportscar? These cars typically run on a low profile tire anyway, and the space available for a spare tire is generally limited. Many of the cars come with run-flat tires already; why wouldn't a manufacturer offer the PAX tires for their performance edge?

Interesting that with Michelin being a French company, the only French car manufacturer who offered PAX tires (Renault) has stopped offering them. Why are you guys so willing to be the American guinea pigs?

ceric · August 2004

I think I can answer the question of why not PAX on sports cars. "Unsprung weight" is very critical on the handling of sports cars. It affects how the car feel "attached" to the up and down road surface. "Unsprung weight" is the total weight of your wheels, tires, and most portion of your suspension components. That's why you see high-end vehicles use alloy wheels and aluminum components in suspension. Lighter wheels and tires also reduces rotation loss during cruising although it may not be very significant to MPG.

That said, PAX tires and wheels are heavier than regular combo. (PAX says 4 PAX tires < 5 regular tires) No sports car driver would even want heavy wheels, not to mention heavy tires. Many sports cars today do without spare tires. Instead, they provide sealant kits. A while back Corvette (C6 or C5?) uses run-flats (self-supporting), and was criticized by owners for harsh ride and being heavy in unsprung weight.

vertrkr · August 2004

Treadwear & traction ratings would be of concern to me. I know the Sienna's Bridgestone SSTs have a treadwear of 230 and temp & traction B ratings, pretty poor in my book. I would seriously consider NOT buying a car with those ratings and no options to upgrade the tire to something better from another company.

I've no idea what the PAX ratings are but I'd bet they don't put much rubber on the tread to help compsentate for the extra weight in the wheels which would lead to a poor treadwear rating. More I think about it the more I like just plain good ol' tires and a can or two of sealant for the wife.

rorr · August 2004

I understand unsprung weight. My point was that while SOME manufacturers of sportscars have (and continue to) offered conventional, heavy runflats, either as standard or optional equipment, non offer the PAX system. Since this system promises to reduce unsprung weight (thus a performance benefit), I would have thought that sportscars manufacturers WHO HAVE offered runflats would have changed over to the PAX sytem.

Yet they haven't.

Owners of sportscars are generally more accepting of new technology. They are typically somewhat more adventourous (as evidenced by RX-8 owners getting a can of fix-a-flat and a tire inflator in lieu of a spare OR runflats). Yet Honda (and Michelin) is attempting to introduce bleeding edge tire technology to......minivan owners???

ateixeira · August 2004

Sports cars are an extreme case, you often see pricey forged alloy rims to save just a couple of pounds.

You would not notice on a minivan.

Why can't minivans be leading edge? I don't think it's bleeding edge at this point, several other cars have used it.

Minivans introduced a lot of innovations, perhaps more than any other segment in the past decade. That might be what saved them from extinction.

-juice

rorr · August 2004

Yes, you do see pricey forged alloys to save a few pounds on sportscars. Yet some manufacturers went with relatively heavy standard runflats and expensive alloys but DIDN'T go with the Pax, even though the Pax is lighter.

Why?

Several cars have used the Pax system (if 4 counts as 'several'). The Audi A6 and A8 (in Europe only), a Renault (which has since stopped using the Pax), and Rolls Royce. Not exactly a large group. Of the cars mentioned, ONLY the Rolls currently has these tires in the US. This may not be 'bleeding' edge but it's pretty darned sharp.

Minivan innovations? Sure, IN THE REALM OF MINIVANS. But in the realm of automotive innovations, I think the Pax tire system is a couple of orders of magnitude more risky than cupholders.

scienceman · August 2004

I think the reason that other run flats have gained more traction on the market--no pun intended--is simply because the PAX system is expensive and because it requires a totally different wheel that the owner can't change out to standard technology like with the other run flats. Marketers know that people just like the ones on this board will be skeptical of new technology that is not backwards compatible. Getting acceptance of new ideas is always a difficult hurdle to get over. Think about Columbus and his wild idea about the "proving" the Earth is round. Or the proposition that gravity pulls on all objects with the same acceleration.

What's to be remembered is that just because we are skeptical by nature does not mean that there is something inherently wrong with the PAX technology.

ceric · August 2004

I think I can answer the question of why not PAX on sports cars. "Unsprung weight" is very critical on the handling of sports cars. It affects how the car feel "attached" to the up and down road surface. "Unsprung weight" is the total weight of your wheels, tires, and most portion of your suspension components. That's why you see high-end vehicles use alloy wheels and aluminum components in suspension. Lighter wheels and tires also reduces rotation loss during cruising although it may not be very significant to MPG.

That said, PAX tires and wheels are heavier than regular combo. (PAX says 4 PAX tires < 5 regular tires) No sports car driver would even want heavy wheels, not to mention heavy tires. Many sports cars today do without spare tires. Instead, they provide sealant kits. A while back Corvette (C6 or C5?) uses run-flats (self-supporting), and was criticized by owners for harsh ride and being heavy in unsprung weight.

ceric · August 2004

I think I can answer the question of why not PAX on sports cars. "Unsprung weight" is very critical on the handling of sports cars. It affects how the car feel "attached" to the up and down road surface. "Unsprung weight" is the total weight of your wheels, tires, and most portion of your suspension components. That's why you see high-end vehicles use alloy wheels and aluminum components in suspension. Lighter wheels and tires also reduces rotation loss during cruising although it may not be very significant to MPG.

That said, PAX tires and wheels are heavier than regular combo. (PAX says 4 PAX tires < 5 regular tires) No sports car driver would even want heavy wheels, not to mention heavy tires. Many sports cars today do without spare tires. Instead, they provide sealant kits. A while back Corvette (C6 or C5?) uses run-flats (self-supporting), and was criticized by owners for harsh ride and being heavy in unsprung weight.

samnoe · August 2004

can we create a new, different board for PAX tires?

cmh · August 2004

Is the '05 Ody rumored to have XENON head lights? Is it possible to tell that from the spy shots?

odync · August 2004

Off of the PAX question.... I have an 02 silver Odyssey and am looking at the 05's for the new options that they offer...but was thinking of getting it in black as I have seen a few Black 04 Ody's and they look pretty sharp. I know black cars show dirt like crazy and can also show scratches. Anyone have any comments on black cars? I have never owned one.

mochisushi · August 2004

I know people with black cars and they have said they would never do it again. They look GREAT when perfectly clean, but will show the dust, dirt and water marks soon after. As you stated, they also show the scratches and dings as well. We had the dark blue '99 Odyssey, have Redrock Pearl Pilot and a dark gray Suburban. All three look dirty soon after washing.

We have owned white, silver and the light gold in the past. All were very easy to maintain, didn't show the scratches and dings as easily and stayed looking clean longer.

What you choose, however, is all a matter of choice. I think that dark colors look very good on large cars and am sure that the '05 will look great in black. But after three dark colored cars, I am looking forward to a lighter color if I get an '05.

danno · August 2004

I was stuck in a traffic jam today beside a black Odyssey that was immaculate. (Looked like a 2004) WOW! It looked simply amazing. I have a black Escape. It does show the dirt quite easily but just gives me more reason to wash and wax it. However not much sheetmetal on an Escape. Lots of sheetmetal on large vans on the other hand.

ace1000 · August 2004

My car is black, and if I get an Odyssey, it may be black as well. Both my sons have black cars, and all of my brother's cars are black. Must be something in the genes.

I think black with a tan interior is the most elegant color combination. There's a reason why tuxedos and limousines are black. I'm not the only one who thinks this way. One local dealer has two Odysseys with NAV on order and both are black with the ivory interior. He considers this to be the classiest color combination as well. Another reason I like black is that all the black plastic trim around the windows and elsewhere on many cars doesn't stick out like a sore thumb as it does with other colors.

How practical black is depends upon your situation. My car is garaged at home and at work, so it doesn't get that dirty. I wash and wax the car only once or twice a year, and I use only water to wash it. Here in California it doesn't rain during the summer, so it is easy to brush the dust off. Someone at the grocery store complimented me on how good it looks, and the car hadn't been washed for months.

I let the rain clean the car during the rainy season. When there will be a break in the rain, I grab a couple of towels off the shelf in the garage and take a few minutes to dry the car when I pull it in for the night. The car looks great until the next storm.

However, I am concerned about the size of the van. Our black cars are small and easy to clean. A van may be a lot more work to keep clean, so I will take a look at some light colors as long as the interior is ivory.

rorr · August 2004

"What's to be remembered is that just because we are skeptical by nature does not mean that there is something inherently wrong with the PAX technology."

You are correct. And Betamax offered a much better picture than VHS. And OS/2 Warp offered a 32bit operating system while Windows95 was still vaporware. And Michelin has a history of introducing advanced tire technology which required special wheels. Any guesses as to what a set of TRX wheels are worth these days?

fbear · August 2004

Just as there is a reason why tuxedos and limos are black, there is also a reason people who live in the desert wear white...

Don't know where you live but black cars will get warmer when out in the sun. Good in Minnesota winters-not so good in Alabama summers.

gjay1170 · August 2004

I actually ordered an '05 Ody in black with tan/ivory interior. My friend has a '03 black Ody and it's nice and sporty looking in that color. I need a change. I drive a white '01 Ody now, before that I had a white Volvo, beige Accord, and a silver Galant. Yes, black is hard to keep clean. My husband has a black car that he washes everyweek, but only drives it on the weekends and is garage kept. Black is hot in the summer, but living in NJ, we only get 3-4 months of hot weather. My husband wanted the black Ody anyway. I would prefer silver so that I don't have to wash it that much. It's a family car, not a roadster, and the kids will probably trash the nice ivory leather interior anyway. Too bad black doesn't come with dark grey interior. Oh well.

fbear · August 2004

gjay1170,
I am also in NJ. My order is with Clinton Honda. How about you? (Black leather is available with black exterior but only on Touring models)

lynnw · August 2004

I live in Florida and would never own a black car down here. They are waaaaayyyyy too hot! Stand beside a black car and a white car in the middle of the afternoon and touch both, the black car would be too hot to touch while the white car would be hot but not too hot to touch. If you live up north this is not an issue since it is cold more months out of the year, but in the south or desert states, I would imagine this is unthinkable. I own a white car now and my next one will also be white. Simply out of practicality, black cars are pretty but show every defect including dents and scratches as well as oxidation and dirt so much faster than any other color.

andrewtran71 · August 2004

Is there actually a scientific explanation for this "black color is hotter/white color is cooler" hypothesis?
Has anyone actually proven this?

I remember reading in my 8th grade science class that this was just a myth---a pre-conceived notion--kind of like an illusion.

I own a black car and I don't think black color is hotter than white color.

mochisushi · August 2004

Lighter colors reflect light...Darker colors absorb light. See the attached link for a quick explanation.

http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/gen99/gen99540.htm

This was found doing a Google search using Heat, Absorption, and Color as search criteria.

sdheer · August 2004

Yes it is a proven scientific fact that black absorbs and white reflects. But black also radiates faster, so it should get cooler faster too depending on the temperature difference with the surroundings.

lynnw · August 2004

Here is a link that speaks of interior color only and there is a dramatic temperature difference, I imagine there are sites that refer to exterior colors as well, but this is one I know has data which states actual temperatures of different colors:

http://www.kidsource.com/kidsource/content3/news3/temperatures.sa- fety.all.html

If you dont want to go to the link, the info is as follows:
In 79 degree farenheit the white interior is 135 degrees f, while the black is 192 degrees f

lynnw · August 2004

Here is a link that speaks of interior color only and there is a dramatic temperature difference, I imagine there are sites that refer to exterior colors as well, but this is one I know has data which states actual temperatures of different colors:

http://www.kidsource.com/kidsource/content3/news3/temperatures.sa- fety.all.html

If you dont want to go to the link, the info is as follows:
In 79 degree farenheit the white interior is 135 degrees f, while the black is 192 degrees f

lok888 · August 2004

Interesting data. I wonder tinted windows (or so-called privacy glass) may reduce the interior temparture a bit. But no one should leave a child or pet in the car.

nissanfan · August 2004

Wow - I have been waiting to see shots of how the new Odyssey would look like, since I am in the market for a new minivan, and am so disappointed in Honda's redesign of the Ody. I LOVED the old one and haven't been able to get one yet - the 2004's are up for such great deals now, but still have to wait to get my minivan. So I was hopeful with the new Ody - even though my heart is set on the Quest - LOVE the Quest, such a great looking, driving and comfortable and spacious van! But, I wanted to keep my options open, and the only other minivan I would consider was the Ody - and maybe the MPV, since I don't like the Sienna. But wow, I am DEFINITELY not getting the new Ody! How can something be SO bland AND ugly at the same time? Well, the new Ody is a great example of that. I personally don't care how great a car is, if it looks bland yet bad and dowdy, I will NOT like and will NOT purchase it. I hope that when the real pics come out or when I see one on the street it will look better to me. So perhaps I won't give up hope. But for now, I'm knocking on Nissan's door for the 2005 Quest. (Some may consider the Quest ugly, but it's styling is not for the masses mentality that Toyota and Honda strive for - it's avant guard and futuristic and a refreshing departure from the normal, boring designs of other manufacturers excluding Mazda with its MPV)

andrewtran71 · August 2004

Okay, what cars has white interiors?
Maybe beige, cream, etc., but white?

I guess colors make a difference.
But 192 degrees fahrenheit? That sounds off the wall. Are they saying the temperature of the fabric/leather or are they saying the temperature of the whole interior?

ateixeira · August 2004

So, stop beating around the bush, how do you really feel, nissanfan?

White interiors stain with incredible ease. Not very practical.

-juice

gjay1170 · August 2004

fbear... I ordered my Ody in Freehold, David Michael Honda. I leased mine there before. It's not just a Honda dealer. They sell VW's and Mercedes too. After reading some of these posts, some people say that going to a big Honda dealer would be better since they order more. I'm 3rd on the list and may get it by October. I'm not getting the touring. I have no idea what it is anyway. Black on black is tooooo hot for me. It's ok on our convertible, not the family van. Speaking of colors, I saw a Quest on the road with a red interior. Yuck!!!!! That would make me vomit. I just hope the '05 Ody is nicer than those spy pics, and I'm not dissapointed. If I am, I'll see if I can find an '04 Ody, or maybe if I'm desperate, a Sienna. I'm just leasing month to month now and waiting for the Odys to come out.

andrewtran71 · August 2004

http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/phy00/phy00156.htm

According to these scientists, darker colors absorb more LIGHT, and the light converts into heat; thus, darker colors get hotter than lighter colors, assuming the materials are the same.

fbear · August 2004

Now look up your 8th grade science teacher and straighten that guy out. Did he also debunk the myth about the world being round? ;-)

ateixeira · August 2004

Yes, apparently it's an imperfect sphere. ;-)

-juice

fbear · August 2004

Nissanfan,
If earnest in stating that you want to like the 05 Ody, then don't give up yet. The only apparently uncamoflaged picture to emerge so far was a 1 inch, grainy thumbnail. All larger shots have still been disguised to some extent, tape on lights, etc. Style is so subjective that it is hard to judge until you see the real thing.

andrewtran71 · August 2004

What?
I thought it was square?
***hee**hee
Square like the Odyssey.
So who wants to pay premium dollar on the Touring model only to get black interior?
Man, I'm still leaning towards the Navigator:-)

Why can't Lincoln take one of these minivans and turn it into their "Navigator Minivan"? I'd buy it. Shoot, if Lincoln would just take that Mercury minivan and turn it into a "Navigator", I'd buy it too.
Of course, with the light-parchment (or beige) interior to reflect that light away and keep the heat down.

lynnw · August 2004

Basically, black is hotter than white. I would assume (if I may

) that the exterior color makes as much difference as the interior if not more since it is directly exposed to the light rays and heat. Car color choice is definitely a personal preference thing, if you enjoy having a black car that is what you should own. I have had black vehicles in the past until I finally figured out why it was so hot. Like I said, I live in Florida, so that makes a big difference to me since it is sweltering here 10 months out of the year. If I lived up north however where the opposite was true, I would probably opt for a black car to attract heat for the winter. I would love to own a charcoal colored car, but that is also almost black therefore I wont. I dont necessarily think that white cars are more attractive, and in minivans they really look like rental cars when they are white, but I would much rather be comfortable riding in a bland color van that sweating my rear off in a sexy color van. Oh, the sacrifices we have to make.

ateixeira · August 2004

Mercury Monterey not fancy enough for ya? ;-)

Pretty soon I think they'll have $25,000 rebates so you might actually be able to get one for free.

-juice

ceric · August 2004

True, black materials may absorb radiation more than lighter ones, however, don't forget the "convection" is still at play here inside a closed vehicle. My theory is that vehicles with darker interior would heat up more quickly than lighter ones, but "EVENTUALLY" (given sufficient time under the sun), same temperature would be reached, no matter what colors the interior are.

This would be a good topic for kid's science project. You have to measure interior temperature against colors and time under sun (same models, same situation).

cooldad24 · August 2004

What about put the one back on? When you were forced to go to a local tire store without PAX machine and tire, what you 're gonna do? They can remove the tire and patch it, but they can't put it back.

cooldad24 · August 2004

It depends how fast the heat will be drain out or leak. Simple question: When inside of the car has higher temperature than outside, what will happen? It has to be leak out. It will find the lowest temp point to form an "energy flow" like water go to lowest presure. In my assumption: for same car, the energy will try to dissipate and light color will be more effect to leak the heat than dark one. Think of water in and out, when dissipate the exess energy, the black still aborbing from the sun while energy reverse from the other side. The offset is the rate the excessive energy tranfer from in to out. At the same time, the glass just let the sun to pass through and keep sending more energy so make the temp in side the car keep climbing up until strong energy source trapped inside the car beat the amount of engery try to be tramsmit from outside. This in-coming flow amount was affected by the car color. That explane why differnt color can reach different "settle" temp.

cooldad24 · August 2004

Last comment on this new technology: a new design, technology or product that is better than old doesn't win. It all depends all the related resources and support. Someone just name some and I don't want to repeat. Cost and support, to me, is the most critical factors. Lower cost will increase acceptance which will lead more supply and then providing more and better support. I don't think it's a bad idea or product. It's all about the timing and preparation. That is why other tire manufacturers grant the right but rather waiting for Michelin to pioneer and create the market which take time and need big buck to accomplish. They just wait and then joint to the 2nd force if the market ready. Remember, you need the equipment even for patch a hole (dismount and mount) and I doubt the store in low density area like some midwest and north willing invest on this equipment. For most the tire stores, like other tire mfr, just wait and evalute if the investment worthy. For only one or two models account for 20,000 per year cross the country, I won't invest it. This traslate I won't have any customer in the first 3 months and maybe 2-5 time I use it each month until it becomes popular. By that time, the price of the equipment will drop (bigger qty) and usage will lead to faster paid-back. If Honda really think run-flat tire has better safety, it should go to regular one and place PAX as customer's choice. IF michellin really like to see the PAX works, lease the equipment to stores like to to try at very low rate. After trial, the stores have choice to continue or not. Once you can lock more service points, you will attract more car mfr to adopt the new technology. It's a big gambling and Michellin need to think it over. I used to believe Honda will be conservative, but no longer think so for their decision in the past 2-5 years. I am not against the technology, but question the time and model to adopt it. At least I won't try it in Minivan and SUV which is family vehicle will go everywhere. I will start with commutive car which will in metro and business area most the time so easy to get service.

Honda Odyssey Future Models

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles