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Comments
My EGR "failed" after driving easy for 22,000 miles without periodically or deliberately "blowing its nose." Oddly enough it happened during the third consecutive tank of fuel using Cetane number improver, so I am done with that experiment.
I had an opportunity to get a close look at the failed valve when it was removed. It looked like a well made unit but also looked unremarkable in complexity. There was a very light coating of soot on the passage way and it was in the closed position. Symptoms preceding the failure were reduced turbo lag, much cleaner exhaust under acceleration and perhaps slightly better mileage. And, it continued to drive very well with three error codes and the engine light on. I regret that I did not remove it, clean it and clear the codes. I might have learned something.
Observation of inlet air temperature revealed that relatively high inlet air temperature was obtained when driving out of overdrive (3rd) at 2,500 under light load. Driving at high throttle and high load in the same gear produced much lower air inlet temperature. Assuming that air inlet temperature is correlated with egr flow, a lot of exhaust goes through the egr valve in the first case and a lot less exhaust goes through the egr valve in the second case.
Sorry, Hogwild, I strayed from you original question. Yes I think the egr valve is easily cleanable. The problem I am having is that I am not convinced that the valve failed because of soot. It just wasn't that dirty. In a previous discussion of this topic (Caribou1, it think), it was suggested that perhaps a little more clearance was needed on the moving parts. Next time it fails I intend to find out.
I have a decent amount of experience with these Optima batteries from the early 90's installing sound systems in the 10,000+ watt IASCA competition systems. We'd use 15 to 20 of these batteries in parallel separated by isolator circuitry with an Amptron power supply on the outside during sound off.
There are two types of these gelled lead acid Optima batteries--the yellow top and red top. The yellow top is the deep cycle version rated in amp/hr (typically 75 amp/hr) and it handles full drain/charge cycles like a champ. I'd have to pull up the spec sheets to speak intelligently about the internal plate differences between the red/yellow top versions. (I do know that the deep cycle version is somewhat impervious to anode surface crystalization which would otherwise come from heavy drain cycles. This crystalization is the death knell for any lead-acid battery, especially for those whose acid does not continually wash over the internal surfaces. The gel simply does not have the penetration power of its traditional counterpart.)
The red top Optima battery, however, is your typical shallow cycle battery albeit all-position because of the gelled sulfuric acid, and it is appropriately rated in CCA. Our team found that if you drained them completely (<4 volts), the battery would NEVER return to full charge of 12.7 volts and would actually randomly walk its way to 11.5, 11, 10.5, etc volts over time until it became an enormous current drain in the power system. We burned out dozens of regulators because of this sustained current draw and the inability of several 210 amp alternators to operate at 100% duty cycle for the duration of a soundoff contest at IASCA. I've probably returned 20 of them under full warranty in my short lifetime.
In essence, if you drain this battery so that your starter solenoid can't even engage at ignition, be prepared to replace the battery soon or potentially lose the voltage regulator (which in most cases is part of the circuitry in the ECM for the JEEP or OBDC for other, older Chrysler vehicles.)
Jones
Farout
We do blow the nose when we get this jerkyness that lasts for maybe 15 seconds, and they we drop down to 3rd and take it up to 4,000 rpm for a minuet or so, and the jerky feeling gows away. This happens maybe every 2,000 to 3,000 miles. Proberly Philips 66 diesel seems to be pretty good as well.
Because we do not have smoke or soot, I can see no reason to use additives. The inter-cooler hose still remains oil free anter 11,000 miles fron replacement. However I do use Shell Rotella 5-40w, and it seems to run the same as the Mobile 1 0-40, but at least the Shell Rotella is out here to buy, where the 0-40w was next to impossible to find.
The only way to tell if you are getting ULSD is to ask, here. There are no tags saying it's the ULSD yet, they have until Oct. 16 to have the right labled diesel. Do you have any ULSD there? Our diesel here is $2.39. That's what it is in about a 70 mile radius from our house.
Motor Week had their final test results on the 2005 CRD. They averaged 21.7 mpg for 21,000 miles. No problems, but felt the extra price for the CRD, and with the test of the Liberty 3.7 getting in the "high teens" the CRD was ok.
DCX called the CRD's an "experiment" I call it as it was a sneaky way to get a "test market" where people paid big time to be in it. However, so far we are pleased with the CRD.
Farout
There is no visible smoke during the day except when I "blow the nose". At night, however, it is a different story. If someone is behind me with their lights on, and I goose the accelerator a bit too much, then you can see the smoke in the lights of the following car.
As to ULSD, I have learned that on October 16th, ULSD will be available at 80% of the pumps while LSD (S500) will be available at the remaining 20%. S15 will not be mandatory at all pumps for a few years down the road except at CARB rule following states. See the link below for the phase in schedule.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/presentations/2006/ethanol/ethanol0- - - 806_files/frame.html
Go to slide 26 to see the schedule grid.
I will continue to use additives for now until I consistently get S15. Once I consistently get S15, I may simply use cetane improver only and see what happens. As to oil, I will stick to the Amsoil products. As good as Shell may be, I have not seen it here at the local Walmart here in Delray Beach. They do have the 0W-40 in good quantity however. Now that Amsoil has a CJ rated 5W-40 available, I will run with it since it has a lower Noack vaporization rate than Shell by several percent.
Farout, I have been assuming (perhaps wrongly) that when there is no label at the diesel pump the fuel is ULSD since a warning label is required by law for LSD. I fueled at a station recently that used to have the LSD labels and the labels were gone.
By my math, the CRD runs a tad over 90 mph in 3rd gear at 4,000 rpm. Are you running that fast for a full minute?! If you just want to blow out the egr valve, run at 2,500 rpm in 3rd at light throttle for a while. At high rpm and heavy load the valve actually closes and maybe that is what is needed. You can close the valve by simply flooring the throttle up hill in 3rd for a few seconds now and then.
Also, thank you to the battery posters. I had no clue about these batteries. I will use a trickle charger whenever the CRD is not driven for more than a couple of days.
LBJ changed seem to change the ride and handling. It seems stiffer and more stable while driving on the highway. I can't pin down any other changes, but I make less steering corrections. I didn't feel pulling to the left or right, maybe you don't need to realign after these are changed.
They also replaced the door moldings as they were peeling away.
They couldn't duplicate the shutter, but I noticed more when I first started it up at the dealer (after service) with the new fuel filter. I didn't notice it in today's drive to/from work. I did pass a slow car and I didn't feel it when slowing down like normal. I don't think what I felt was a transmission issue. I do use it hard pulling a camping trailer near the CRD's max towing rating. I would think that this would bring out every flaw.
Do people have this problem with the Hemi powered B2500 & 3500 pickups, I believe they have the same transmission?
1) What exactly does the EGR valve look like (I know this was addressed in posts months ago, but I'm not sure where)?
2) As you look at the engine (with the plastic cover off), there is a black plastic device about 3 inches in diameter on the left side of the valve cover....is this the egr valve, and if not, what is it?
3) Has anybody tried RXP gas additive in their CRD, or any car for that matter? It is common in the DFW area at Kwik Car and O-Riley's. I'm curious what kind of results you got.
Thx for the info!
Twocycle2
What your describe is Closed Crankcase Ventilation (CCV). It is a simple flapper valve that guarantees or allows one way flow of crankcase pulses of fumes from the crankcase into the intake ahead of the turbo. Without this vent pressure would build up in the crankcase and push oil past the seals.
I called the parts store and the optima battery is $175.
now that would put a dent in the food budget! If that happens I will look into some other kind of battery that will crank this diesel over and last better, and I hope at half the cost.
There are no mountains in Missouri mostly little hills, and lots of dips in the road. In fact unless one tows a trailer it might be a little hard to put the CRD under much of a loda.
Farout
I found quarts of 0-40 Mobile today in the parts store, $6.48 each.
Farout
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The cetane number is a ratio expressing how easily a diesel fuel self-ignites and burns compared to a set of references:
- Pure cetane (n-hexadecane) is considered 100%
- "1-methylnaphthalene" is considered 0% because it burns very slowly in a diesel engine.
These values quantify the delay of self-ignition in terms of injection timing and also determine the maximum rpm a given diesel engine will be able to achieve because of the time needed to burn the fuel.
Heated and spin-filtered crude oil can be used on ship engines because of their slow speed (~35% cetane). Smaller diesel engines need shorter combustion times and are limited to roughly 5000 rpm at 51% cetane rating.
This is the (short) theory about cetane and It seems there is nothing to gain above 51% cetane rating.
When I asked you how the percentage was expressed, I had in mind the fact that you do get good mileage (better than mine), and that cetane is directly related to efficiency of this engine. In other words why would you have good mileage at a 45% rating and europeans less at 50%?
I think part of why I get better fuel economy is where I live right now, namely Florida. It is still quite warm here in the low to mid eighties. Also, it is quite flat here too and the only hills I encounter are the bridges that cross over other roads and other highways.
I also feel that part of the fuel economy issue is driving speed. I take my time and generally do not drive faster than sixty-five MPH (105 KPH)and usually I drive closer to 62 MPH (100 KPH)on the highway.
In my own experimentation, I have found that lower cetane diesel, namely that closer to forty or forty-three yields more noise, more vibration, somewhat slower acceleration, more hesitation when cold and in colder weather and a little less fuel economy. I also get more smoke, especially when I blow the EGR's "nose".
When I add cetane improvers and detergents with cetane improver that will bring the cetane closer to fifty or fifty-one. I have found that with the higher cetane, the engine is smoother, is quieter, has almost no vibration, hesitation disappears when cold or in colder weather, is more responsive to right foot input and best of all I gain about four percent in fuel economy. Also, there is significantly less smoke when I blow the EGR's nose.
Does this answer your question?
ULSD has LESS Cetane and is about 43 in most ALL stations, not just Shell. The new ULSD needs a lubercation additive, he suggested PS Cetane booster in the summer and PS anti-gell in the winter. Without sulfer this wil mean the water/fuel filter will need to be changed more often, as sulfer distributed the water in the fuel, not the water will be a larger issue. He said the WalMart fuel, is a pot luck type of fuel, and said I was just lucky to get good fuel, and suggested a major brand now. Also the new ULSD does get lower fuel miles per gallon, in his huge tanker trucks it is noticeable, but not 1%. The tankers get 4-6mpg (if that). Shell has and other brands have run into some big issues with Bio fuel even with the low Bio-5 fuel. Bacteria is a huge issue, and it does cause fuel pump problems, but it does help with lubercation, but he said the trade off is just not worth it in his opinion. The bacteria grows fast and is very risky.
Now for oil. The old oil CI-4, is being replaced by CJ-4 oil. The Shell Rotella T is what he specificly what he was referring to. The CI-4 oil can be topped off with the CJ-4 oil, but the CJ-4 cannot be topped off with CI-4 oil. By March Shell will stop making CI-4.
All diesel fuel stations are being sent ULSD as of today, OCT. 16,2006. As the stations buy more fuel the more pure the ULSD will become. All diesel engines put in vehicles until Jan 2007, are able to use the LSD that is currently in tanks. All engine installed in vehicles from Jan. 1,2007 must be the new diesels that can only use the ULSD. Any engine can use the ULSD, that was made before 2007.
I hope this was helpful and not confusing.
Farout
I don't mean to pick nits, but what the shell guy told you does not make sense from a chemistry standpoint. There is nothing in the sulphur in diesel fuel which would allow the "sulphur to distribute the water". I am not a petrochemist, but just a "regular" organic chemist and have no special insight into diesel chemistry, but sulphur just doesn't do what he says. The sulphur neither acts as a surfactant (detergent), nor as an interface between the oil and water soluable components of the fuel. Depending on the organic sulphur compounds, the sulphur may possibly be somewhat hydroscopic and "take up" some water, but in no fashion should the removal of the sulphur cause a problem with water contamination UNLESS there is something that is done in the removal process that adds water to the final mix.
If he is contending that the sulphur removal would permit bacteria growth than he is saying that it acts as some kind of bactericide which is possible, but highly unlikely. The sulfur removal may change the ph of the fuel, but I suspect not enough to change bacteria growth rates. Further, some of the bacteria growth may be by sulfur using species which one would think would be greatly reduced if the sulfur is reduced.
One last thing, on the oil: it is my understanding that by API standards "new" oil has to be back compatible with "old" oil so I don't see why the mixing would be a problem, but I'm not sure of this.
I agree you can improve your cetane number with additives, but your basic fuel must have more BTUs than the one we are using. These are two separate issues and we seem to have equivalent experience. This answers my question
You have one very narrow "ramp" in Miami that climbs into the clouds, much worse than our mountain roads that have at least the rock on one side :shades:
http://www.intertek-cb.com/newsitetest/services/fr/documents/01Bacteries_000.pdf-
I was not able to find it in english, but here is a brief translation, and sulfer is not addressed:
When refined, diesel fuel is stored at a warmer temperature than ambient air.
Condensation occurs when fuel cools down and the free volume of air inside the storage tank shrinks because of the negative temperature variation.
Micro organisms normally present in humid air penetrate in the vessel and lead to bacteria growth at the interface of the condensed water and the fuel, usually at the bottom of the storage vessel.
Bacteria are accompanied by fungus and yeasts. A first type of bacteria attacks fuel and oxydises it while a second type of bacteria lives from the waste of the other group.
This phenomena is self maintained at temperatures near 72 Fahrenheit.
I know that fly over. It is quite high and steep and I have travelled on it several times. It is rather unsettling to drive on when it is raining.
Getting back to the original question, according to some of the refiners I have contacted, there will be less energy per gallon because in the process of removing the sulfur, they are reducing the amount of aromatics found in the fuel. I have seen numbers up to 3% less energy than found in S500 diesel. Aromatics are being reduced by 65% in our diesel fuel while CARB diesel allows only 10% aromatics in their fuel. Aromatic compounds are the biggest source of PAH compounds, a known potent carcinogen. I will be glad to get rid of those.
I am of the opinion that CARB diesel is very similar to the fuel you buy. It has a cetane of 50 or better, and is very low in aromatic content, thus reducing the BTU content of the fuel.
According to the EPA schedule, all diesel fuel will be CARB like in the next few years. I wish they would simply make the CARB diesel. By the end of the decade, even home heating oil will be S15. It is now S5000.
All they replaced was the egr valve, a gasket, and a turbo sensor. It ran worse when I got it back. The 5 star dealer service advisors both said the repair hadn't gone far enough since the cooler wasn't replaced but they "fixed" it with a test drive and said it was fine based on their experience with similar vehicles. Now the turbo doesn't work and the tranny shifts randomly around 55 mph. Passing begs a head-on since it acts differently everytime I try it. Personally I think it's been reprogrammed to make the egr last until warrenty ends and kill the complaining customer. (my check cleared and I don't intend to buy again; I'm useless to jeep)
17.75 MPG on the highway in 2wd. $3.11 per gallon.
Is the PCM the computer?
The oddest part of all this is that I like the thing when it works. It fits my needs. The reality is that it doesn't work now and it's not going to fix itself. Jeep isn't going to fix it and I can't and don't want to anyway... that's why I bought new.
Glad you're having better luck. You mush have the only non-lemon they built.
Turblediesel
I had big problems with Anchorage Chrysler in 1975. Sounds like they are still operating under the same management.
The one time I decided to "go see Cal" the staff came running out to my van before I could even find a place to park - so I sped up and got the heck out of there!
My Nissan salesman was great; naturally he left the dealer the day after I picked the new van up. He decided to go sell Jeeps. Which brings us back around to Liberties, right? :shades:
I really feel for you and the problems you are having and I am sure that you are beyond frustrated and angry. I guess I have been quite lucky in that my CRD has been quite trouble free save for the aforementioned computer re-flash and update, a blown hose from the turbo to the after cooler, and now the ball joint recall. Outside of those issues, it has been perfect.
The diesel is for the 2008 Liberty not the 2007. The diesel is to be added later in the year of the 2008.
Don't get to excited, this diesel for the 2008 Liberty may be just for Europe, not the USA. Remember that 2007 Compass and Patriot will get a diesel this year, but only for Europe. Time will tell, but no diesel engine is shown in the engine schedule that DCX has posted.
Farout
Farout