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Jeep Liberty Diesel



  • boilermaker2boilermaker2 Member Posts: 131
    Left side is hotter than the right and the front is hotter than the rear. The left side is 5 deg hotter than the right and the front is 10 degrees warmer than the rear (from the same side). My guess was that you drove in one direction, predominantly for a long (relative) period of time so that the left is 5 degrees hotter than the right due to the sun. For instance, you took a trip northward in the afternoon. The front is hotter than then rear due to the weight they are carrying.

    Simple problem, simple answer, from one simple guy to another.

    How'd I do?
  • boilermaker2boilermaker2 Member Posts: 131
    Same thing happened to me. According to my tech, most DCX vehicle have their tranny fluid level checked with the vehicle hot, running and the transmission in Drive. OUR liberty is checked with the vehicle hot, running and the transmission in Park.

    Anyway, it would shudder when the engine was cold(relative)and would shake and sometimes stall when approaching a stop...I wrote about this some time ago.

    Well, the tranny fluid had not heated and expanded when cold so the it would suck air, literally, in this slow down mode and mess things up. When the jeep was hot, the problem was still there but the expanded fluid masks the problem.

    After 12k miles, it started doing it again w/i the last two week. I checked and the tranny was a full quart low. I will repost if it still shudders.

  • synlubessynlubes Member Posts: 184
    you may be on to something i went to synthetic fluid and never had any moor shudder
  • anomiousanomious Member Posts: 170
    I'm confused... :confuse:
    Isn't all ATF+4 synthetic??

    I bought Valvoline, it says "shudder protection"
    right on the bottle!!

  • synlubessynlubes Member Posts: 184
    no very few transmission oils are synthetic but they are going to them specs are getting tougher all the time within two to three years they will al be synthetic
  • caribou1caribou1 Member Posts: 1,354
    Good morning boiler,
    Simple problem, simple answer, from one simple guy to another.
    I just found this 'simple' study explaining the effects of aerodynamic coupling of a vehicle to the road (for those who can read french):

    This document describes how the weight of a vehicle is distributed on it's 4 wheels, and explains the reaction of suspensions using a spring and a standard shock absorber.

    Assuming we drive on the right hand side of the road, the time needed to reach an even weight repartition on the 4 wheels is about 15 seconds after a change of direction. During this stabilization period, the left wheels carry more weight than the right wheels. This is the result of the shock absorbers doing their job. During this time the left wheels also increase their temperature.

    It would be interesting to have the input from a foreign poster driving on the other side of the road. UK perhaps?
  • synlubessynlubes Member Posts: 184
    most of my friends drive on your side of the road after we have a few beers i will have to ask someone else have a nice day
  • caribou1caribou1 Member Posts: 1,354
    Synlubes, I always make the effort to drive on the right side of the road. The police stands too often in the middle :P
  • jimhemijimhemi Member Posts: 223
    I had my 71 Charger Trans rebuilt years ago. When the engine/trans was cold it would slip and "neutral drop" the tires all of the time. I kept going back to the trans place that did the work and they thought I was nuts because by the time I got there the car had heat in her.
    Same as this, warm the fluids had expanded and went through the pump and converter no problem, but cold was a whole diff animal. Turned out the trans dipstick was broken and she was over a qt. low. New dipstick and the right amount of fluid fixed it.
    I hope this is the simple problem although I have my doubts with regards to all of the posts in here :sick:
    Just worried more about the long term use of this little beast.
  • siberiasiberia Member Posts: 520
    Good answers all. I guess that sometimes what makes a puzzle a puzzle is the details that are left out or not thought of. I don’t intend for the following to sound presumptuous because there is no reason to believe that I know “a priori” the only correct answer.

    My first guess is that the front tires carry a heavier load and you made more right turns than left.

    Tidester, I thought of the front tires carrying a heavier load but I did not think about the turns leaving the interstate. I made three right hand turns and three left hand turns before stopping. I also made three downhill gentle stops – all turns (not so gentle) and stops close together. I believe that the heavier load on the front, the energy absorbed making 6 turns and the 3 stops (assuming more braking on the front) explain the generally warmer front tires. I give Tidester high marks for thinking about turns and myself low marks for not thinking about turns. I am not sure if the braking argument deserves much credit.

    My guess was that you drove in one direction, predominantly for a long (relative) period of time so that the left is 5 degrees hotter than the right due to the sun.

    I always check my tire pressures before a long trip to make sure the pressures are equal and proper. One day I backed out of the garage before loading gear and the vehicle sat in the sun for about an hour before I checked the tire pressure. The tires on the sunny side were 2 pounds higher and the sunny side tires were quite warm to the touch. I did in fact drive predominantly for a long period of time with the sun on the left. So, high marks Boilermaker2 for bringing in the variable that I believe explains the generally warmer tires on the left as you describe the exact circumstance. A strong predominant wind from the right side could have loaded the left, but that was not the case.

    The front wheels stand by the heat of the engine compartment. In addition to that, the engine and driver shift the center of gravity to the front. On a normal road in 2WD at stable speed, friction driven front wheels should accumulate more heat than the rear wheels that have better contact with the pavement.

    Once again, Caribou1, I give myself low marks for not thinking about the heat of the engine (or the exhaust) and you high marks for same. This could, in fact, be part of the solution to the puzzle along with more weight on the front as previously mentioned. The front differential is quite close to the engine and heat could be conduced through the front axles to the front wheels and maybe created a little by the front axles. Warm air is coming off the radiator, charged air cooler and air conditioning condenser going downward and maybe being squished outward by the bottom shield - contributing to generally warmer front tires.

    In a nutshell, my answer was sun on the left, more weight on the front and braking. I think this forum can brainstorm! ;)
  • siberiasiberia Member Posts: 520
    I think free open minded discussions can help understanding. Have you experienced professional "brain storming"? Participants often discover new fields of interest, during their paid working hours.

    Yes, I have. And, it is with some restraint that I do not respond beyond :P, said laughing.

    Unfortunately, I cannot read French. I submit that the following is the salient CRD equation:

    Happiness = Reality – Expectations :)
  • caribou1caribou1 Member Posts: 1,354
    Initially I imagined you would have had a "simple" emissions control system in the US, similar to the one I have on my engine. This forum showed me how you guys have to struggle and worry to keep your investment on the road.

    The MY 2003 of the CRD is well beyond my expectations of a diesel powered vehicle, and I've had diesels for ~25 years.

    I would have said:
    Happiness = CRD Reality compared to Experience :blush:
    I lost my expectations 3 minutes after I shifted the CRD demo truck into "Drive".

    Today I have no answer for an equivalent replacement vehicle, I'm bluffed.
  • siberiasiberia Member Posts: 520
    I understand what you mean and I agree completely. My CRD reality has equaled or exceeded my expectations in every category except the EGR valve - the good still far outweighs the bad. I just finished another maintenance interval and I plan on removing and cleaning the EGR valve prior to the next oil change to maybe avoid a failure or at least satisfy some curiosity.
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    Oil on the outside of the hose from the turbo to the aftercooler is as sign that you need to replace that hose in the very near future. While you are at it, replace the hose from the aftercooler to the intake too. If you do not replace it, there is a good chance it will either rupture or keep popping off making a big mess, covering everything with oil.

    According to the technician I use, this is becoming an issue with our CRD's. The hoses become saturated from the inside out and there is nothing one can do except replace the hoses under warranty. Caribou mentioned a company or two that makes hoses that are supposedly immune to this problem. I may have some hoses made from braided stainless steel with custom connectors and do away with the problem altogether.
  • caribou1caribou1 Member Posts: 1,354
    When you clean the EGR system, check for the little motor that drives the mixing flap of the Airflow Control Valve. I'm almost certain the problem lies here. The plastic housing that carries the contacts and position sensor may deform due to heat and penetration of oil fumes.
    Several forums mention the simplicity of the exhaust valve mechanism. All I can say is I left mine aside and haven't had a single hiccup since. :blush:
  • faroutfarout Member Posts: 1,609
    after reading about these hoses I just had to drop a line, ok? Right off from the first the cooler hose was dripping oil all over the bottom of the hose. They replaced it, but the thec said the hose he put in was a different hose that had something inside that prevented blowout oil and would last. Well it lasted for more than 27,000 miles.
    Last week we took our Compass infor the 3,000 mile oil change, we were told that DCX has bought back a number of the CRD's. I don't blame the engine for our problems, I blame the programs that DCX has running all the other computers. We had so many re-flashes to re-flash a re-flash that did not do as they thought it should. Follow me????LOL.
    We did see the second CRD the other day. What is really odd, the week after we bought our CRD the price of diesel sky rocketed. The week after we had our bought back from DCX the diesel fuel dropped below gasoline! Rather odd.
    I saw a CRD on E-BAY MOTORS that said it got 33 to 35 mpg! I had to tell him he was over stating the mpg. I am not sure if he got the $25,000 he was asking.

  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    Nice to hear from you farout.

    My CRD will be turning 20K miles old soon and I still remain quite pleased with it. Fuel economy continues to improve and my daily commute to work in metro D.C. traffic consistently yields 22 to 24 MPG. The CRD, at least mine, remains satisfyingly reliable. The dealer was gracious enough to give me the hoses, which I installed myself. I returned the old ones and my work was inspected by a tech at the dealer who found it to be correctly done. When I had the hoses done the first time, the original ones were replaced by an upgraded version and that did not work to well either.

    I have only had three computer flashes done, one very early on and two associated with the F37 recall.

    DCX did test the market with us. I believe though that the test was a success for them. In some ways I see the failure of your CRD as a failure of the dealer and the technician. They just did not go far enough to resolve the problems you were having. The CRD tech at the dealer I use told me that they see the CRD's less than the gasser Libertys and they have had fewer over issues with the CRD than the gasser. They sold about forty or fifty of them over the two years it was available. None of them have been re-purchased by DCX.

    At present I am enjoying the relatively lower price of diesel fuel versus regular unleaded, about a twenty cent difference at some stations.

    I hope you are enjoying your Compass.
  • synlubessynlubes Member Posts: 184
    my crd been about the same as yours egr vave about ten thousand miles torque converter and pump at eighteen thousand miles no problem sense just turned thirty thousand miles and like you diesel finly under gas about twenty cents mobil distributor thinks diesel will stay down under gas was to high to start with trying to recover cost for low sulphur hope farout has good luck with his compass
  • siberiasiberia Member Posts: 520
    What is really odd, the week after we bought our CRD the price of diesel sky rocketed. The week after we had our bought back from DCX the diesel fuel dropped below gasoline! Rather odd.

    Farout, I always thought you were the one. :D Good luck with the Compass.
  • steve05steve05 Member Posts: 52
    Also I might say "Good to hear from you Farout!" Hope the new set of wheels has as much personality as the CRD - well, maybe not. I just had EGR #3 put in, and THEN the dealer discover the "EGR flow control valve" was also NFG. I talked to the service manager and the tech and asked them why the EGRs continue to fail. I said to them I couldn't believe that DCX had a bad "Batch" of EGR valves 2 years after production. I then stated that simply replacing the EGR time after time was like curing a sinus infection with a kleenex - the symptom goes away for a spell, but the problem hasn't been addressed. They actually gave me a nervous look, and muttered something about lack of support from the factory, then changed the subject immediatley. The upside is my mileage - which had dropped to about 15 on the highway - improved radically. I turned 15K that week, and the day after getting the jeep back, I drove from MI to TX. Mileage at 64 mph was an astonishing 28 mpg. I then proceeded to get 27.7, 29.6, and 28.3 over the next several days of driving thru TX and into NM. I'm pretty happy about that. New problems? Of course - I felt the "shudder" now at least a dozen times on this trip. Seems to be under very light load around 50 - 55 mph. Lovely. Just lovely. ::sigh::
    Oh well, have a good day all!
  • caribou1caribou1 Member Posts: 1,354
    If you look back in time, few people addressed the EGR Flow Control Valve as the possible "cause of shudder". This hesitation seems to occur when you have no load on the engine, when the flap opens and closes cyclically. I doubt you will feel the shudder going uphill.

    Over here the technicians turn the AC off when they test drive the CRD, and they gently let the truck accelerate beyond 60 mph. When the AC clutch opens and closes at low RPM, this could be interpretated as shuddering. Never forget the Powertrain Control Module constantly opens and closes the OD clutch according to the position of the flap.

    Since I don't have this flap, I only know that the OD is locked when the RPM stay low while accelerating. In 4th gear it locks around 40 mph (~1600 rpm) and will only open if I press the pedal 1/2 way down. It behaves like a manual. The counterpart is driving uphill at 40 mph with a locked 4th gear. I have to use the OD button to force down shifting otherwise I have to accelerate hard all the time.
  • nescosmonescosmo Member Posts: 453
    Steve05....When they replace the EGR valve the tech have to take the fuel filter assembly out for them to have space to work in there, ounce the assembly is out you have to bleed the filter but probably they don't and that's why you have the shudder. Bleed the filter and it will go away.

  • 05crdjeep05crdjeep Member Posts: 59
    I have to concur with bleeding the filter. I had mine changed and it wasn't bled properly. It shuddered. I brought it back, they bled it and it has run fine. I only had the shudder that one time.

    I have 31000 miles on mine.
  • faroutfarout Member Posts: 1,609
    Winter2: We have had our doubts about the tec's at the place of service. However, the dealership was willing to keep trying but DCX said this was not up to their standards as well. I still don't know where the CRD ended up. it was either St Louis or Kansas City. Both have a large dealer auctions. DCX was going to see if they could at least work some problems out before taking it to the auction.
    I don't know how they could fix the speed control, or the constant jerking. I do know that they did say they were going to change the oil & filter, water/fuel filter, & the transfer case and the axle fluids, and new brake pads on all four wheels. As for the fuel gauge, I have no idea what they thought.
    I was told DCX had spent a lot in the 25 times it went into repair. I do say the F-37 really was a huge mistake, it never ran with much pep and get up and go after that.
    We did like the ability to tow, and we did tow about five times, before the F-37 and it did a good job. This CRD gave problems right off the bat. I am sure that if the problems would have been worked out we would still own it.
    As for the Compass, it's a tough little SUV. The 2.4 cyc has some good get up and go, but only can tow 2,000 lbs. We think we may look into a pop up camper, if we can get the weight factor into the right category.
    DCX did do a very good job of making it right with us. I sure was stunned that they only charged us $ .05 cents a mile for it's use. That could not have been fair er. On our max-care Chrysler Service Contract, it was transferred to the Compass. They started the service Contract just as if it was a new Service Contract. We had the no interest Service Contract, and we owe less than $800.00 so that worked out very well too. So we came out financially better as well. We had 31,000+ on it when we got the replacement Compass.
    I never got up set, or had anything negative to say about the dealer, and praised the help when ever I could, and I believe that the fact we have bought 13 new Chrysler vehicles in the last 12 years just might have had some weight as well. So we are pleased and so ends the tale of our Green CRD.
    I am glad you are having good service from your CRD, I don't think they are a bad vehicle. When humans are involved there will always be something that will not be up to standards once and a while.

  • hogwild1961hogwild1961 Member Posts: 26
    I oedered a stage 2 diesel module from ebay by SPdiesel I called them direct they were asking 499 for it and he dropped the price to 425 us dollars... What a diffference it has made very peepy and what a difference it has made pulling my TT..and no more egr shutter yea!!!..the module has a fuel economy feature plus 10 levels of far I am very happy and it was a breeze to install..Thanks
  • nescosmonescosmo Member Posts: 453
    Farout..... Enjoy your Compass as we enjoy our CRD. You know will always have something to say about our CRD, trying to do things to it -Just because is a diesel-. Now they have the -ORM- (off road modification) witch is taking off the maf sensor off, you know is a CRD thing.

  • bravo6bravo6 Member Posts: 2
    I purchased a CRD 18 months ago. 2006 off the dealership lot for $23,600. I am concerned with all of the recalls. However, I love it. I only have 7400 miles on it and average 25 mpg. I have not put it 4x4 yet. The only problem that I have had has to do with the brakes. After it sits all night and it is cool (below 45), the rear brakes seam to "rub" and makes a loud sound until you reach 15 miles per hour. At that time you hear a "ping" and all is normal. Trying to get it to do that at the dealership is hard. Any one else ever heard of the said problem?
  • mdamickmdamick Member Posts: 277
    How would removing the MAF make it run any better?
    I have disabled the EGR and mine runs better than it ever has.
  • redlemonredlemon Member Posts: 4
    I love my crd but nobody can seem to fix the shudder around 55-60mph. I’ll be keeping track of the paperwork. :lemon:
  • siberiasiberia Member Posts: 520
    My understanding is that the EGR valve stays closed and the system defaults to stored settings and remaining sensors. The EGR valve remaining closed is verified by much lower AIT (air inlet temperature) typically only 20F warmer than outside temp rather than 100F warmer.

    This turns on the engine light but does not seem to matter to the engine other than running a little better. I think it would be good to have a discussion about whether this is a good idea, or not. Since it is illegal it is referred to as the ORM (off road modification) with a wink.
  • mdamickmdamick Member Posts: 277
    What I did was connect a relay in place of the EGR.
    This turns on a resistor that tells the PCM the EGR is there.
    I have found that off the line performance is enhanced as the EGR is programmed to stay open for ~3 seconds off the line and the CRD is quite doggy.
    This also keeps the MIL light off.
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    Rubbing sound from the rear brakes has something to do with the make up of the brake pad material. I have 20K miles on my 2005 CRD and still have this issue on occasion. I could could have had the dealer replace the pads and resurface the rear discs but brakes work fine so I have left them alone.

    Pinging noise from engine could imply garbage fuel (low cetane). Try a different brand of fuel or add some cetane improver to see if the pinging goes away. Have you tried B5? That definitely kills any pinging!!!
  • synlubessynlubes Member Posts: 184
    cerberous likely to by crysler probably tomorrow
  • caribou1caribou1 Member Posts: 1,354
    I confirm from EU local news, DC now spells: capital D alone!
    (understand this as you please :sick: )

    Daimler wants to push their little Smart coffin in the heavy traffic to recuperate a projected return over investment. This is a pertinent illustration of finance wanting to rule technology. When I get too close to Smart cars on the road, I tend to let them pass because the occupants are exposed.
    Jeep is considered as expensive as a MB over here. At least DC helped local governments collect more value added tax money and made the way clear for asian builders. Anyone interrested in buying a SUV with a 1.2 liter engine :confuse:
  • lyfordolypenlyfordolypen Member Posts: 4
    We have a 2005 CRD that now has nearly 30,000 miles on it. When newer, it would often make a moaning sound when first driven in the morning. When backed up, it sometimes made a terrible banging sound -- don't know how else to describe the sound. It was like someone was behind the Jeep smacking it with a bat over and over.

    Two dealers had it overnight and said they couldn't hear anything unusual. Hmmm. They did tell me that the e-brake is known to rub and cause noise, and that "Chrysler is working on it." Apparently, not too hard. At any rate, the moaning and banging is pretty much gone by now, so our neighbors don't fall down laughing when we back out of the driveway.

    That's really my only gripe. We get 30-33 mpg cruising at about 70mph, usually on B99 biodiesel. Surprisingly, it's hard to tell the different in performance or mileage when switching between BioD and dino.

    I've read some comments from people who say they'll never use BioD. Why? I can see not using home-brew, but what I buy is produced by legitimate companies certified to meet ASTM standards. I'd rather use a biodegradable, clean-burning fuel made from US-grown biomass than dino from foreign countries.
  • semperfi06semperfi06 Member Posts: 20
    I believe you have mentioned it before, but can you describe how you connect a relay in place of the EGR and what parts are needed?
    Thanks, SemperFi06
  • boilermaker2boilermaker2 Member Posts: 131
    Whether justified or not, there is a concern by manufacturers and many retail vendors of fuel that anything higher than B20 (B5 or B10 for some) is bad news. This is especially true for older vehicles. BioD acts as a cleaner (emulsifier) which has led to plugged filters and stalled vehicles which is bad business for the retailer.

    On newer vehicles with the higher pressuer, atomizer, fuel rails like the CRD, there is a fear of the injectors being gummed up.

    Though the ASTM guidelines are strict. Some in the business believe that they are not stringent enough.

    B100 has a shorter shelf/storage life but this affects mostly on-farm, long-term storage customer with 6+ mos or greater storage capacity. Not sure if B99 is much different.

    Don't kill the messenger!
  • mdamickmdamick Member Posts: 277
    Disconnect the EGR and connect a relay coil to the plug.
    Connect a 5K potentiometer through the normally open contacts and across the IAT sensor-the back 2 connections on the IAT/Boost Pressure sensor.
    Adjust the pot so when the EGR is on the IAT reads about 195F.

    When the PCM does not want EGR it reads ambient, and when the EGR is on it reads the higher temperature and it stays happy.
  • faroutfarout Member Posts: 1,609
    lyfordolypen: I doubt you will really care too much, but I will warn you anyway. V M Motori and DCX for 2005 in the owners manual did NOT even say Bio fuel was an option, even though it came with B-5 in it from the factory! In 2006 DCX said ok to B-5.
    However V M Motori and every part maker related to the engine has said the use of over B-5 voids the warranty, as far as they are concerned. Personally B-10 seens to be ok, but B-99 is asking for big time problems. The turbo is about a $3,000. item and the wax build up in injectors, and outer parts is a huge risk, even with an extended warranty.
    Our CRD was replaced by DCX a month ago, we had it in the shop 25 times. When we drove it in to get our reeplacement Jeep Compass we choose, the dealer put a seal on the fuel tank, and put a big red sign on it not to move it, DCX picked it up. We were told they tested many parts to see if they could find a fix before going to the auction. The fact we did not use Bio fuel except once when we were low on fuel we used B-20. The Service manager told us that every thing is looked at in these buy backs. So this is just a note to let you be aware.

  • caribou1caribou1 Member Posts: 1,354
    Do you mean that the signal of your Lambda sensor is left aside by default as long as the IAT is high enough?
  • mdamickmdamick Member Posts: 277
    What I found is that the IAT with the EGR active is about 195F.
    I simply put a resistor in that tells the PCM that the temperature is where it is supposed to be when the EGR is supposed to be active.
  • caribou1caribou1 Member Posts: 1,354
    This said, someone could try to put a blind over the intercooler when shifting hesitations occur. It would be a cute way get the EGR out of the circuit? Worth a try :)
  • nescosmonescosmo Member Posts: 453
    Well we all worry about the Boost Pressure Intake Air Temp Sensor to be clean at all time, but what about the Camshaft Position Sensor. Does it have to be clean?, it is in the same intake chamber which is extremilly dirty with soot from the EGR. Talking about soot, what about doing the Orm, does it work, is it worth it?, they said that the soot will go away and the oil will be always clean. are you guys are doing the Orm regularly?.- Like some input - Thanks.

  • mdamickmdamick Member Posts: 277
    That would raise the IAT some & might cut down the amount of EGR flow.
    It would be an interesting experiment.
  • bmartinpebmartinpe Member Posts: 51
    I have just been told that my 2005 Liberty CRD is ready to be picked up with its sixth EGR valve replacement. This makes the seventh EGR that the little beast will have. Earlier I was told that the emissions warranty expires at 36,000, and consequently the EGR replacement will be on my dime after that time. Can I really afford to replace the EGR with each oil change?
  • boilermaker2boilermaker2 Member Posts: 131
    Silly question: What is the Orm?
  • hamchamphamchamp Member Posts: 33
    Just an update. The 05 CRD Jeep was replaced on April 27, 2007 by a 07 Dodge Dakota. I think you all knew that. However, today the Jeep in A Heep finally got repaired. That dealership called and said that it was fixed. It has been there so long, 110 days, they forgot that DCX is now the owner of the vehicle. We are happy with the replacement vehicle. A big headache off our shoulders. hamchamp
  • bmartinpebmartinpe Member Posts: 51
    When I went to pick up my Liberty and its seventh EGR valve and sixth glow plug (4 original and 2 replacements), I asked the service advisor to quote my cost on replacing the EGR valve. The parts department came back with a price of $192 US for the EGR valve. I forgot to ask if that included the throttle body and gaskets. We estimated 3 hours to pay the mechanic to do the work at $102 US per hour. So there you have it: about $500 per EGR replacement. . .with each oil change. Yes, I have asked for a meeting with the zone representative.
  • synlubessynlubes Member Posts: 184
    please let me no what he says
  • nescosmonescosmo Member Posts: 453
    Boilemaker.... O-R-M means Off Road Modification and what it is; You take the off the plug from the maf sensor near the air filter off and by doing that the Air Control Valve will open and the EGR valve will close, giving fresh air to the engine all the time. The Cell will come on but the engine will not absorb any more soot, fuel mileage will increase, the crd will run smother and the oil will be clean all the time. Until now peaple has not experience and disadvantage but to myself I do not know what to do. If things go that way, that will be the solution of the EGR issue. I have tried it but engine rattle some.

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