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Toyota Sienna 2004+
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Comments
ABS keeps tires right at the treshold of its maxium adhesion, and to top it all off, it controls the 4 wheels independently, whereas even the best drivers have to pump the brakes and thus lose traction momentarily. Think of it this way, ABS was developed for the airliners, if it doesn't work do you really think they would be using them still? And yes they are still used on every jet liner out there today.
A locked up tire on dirt creates a increasing wedge of material ahead of it that can improve braking. The same to a limited degree on snow.
Where ABS really does help is on wet surfaces, split mu surfaces and other limited traction situations.
I my limited view much of the reason we see little benefit from ABS is that it cannot perform miracles. I drive a pretty short distance to work in a small metropolitan area, very few people follow anywhere near the recomended 1 car length for every 10mph (or 2 second rule). Without enough distance (or time) no amount of braking perfection will make up for following too close. The other issue is that many accidents are such that no amount of braking can really help: intersections (blowing lights, failing to stop for stop signs etc), failure to yield and so on.
This corresponds to the airliner analogy. How many jets land on gravel surfaces? They only have to deal with wet surfaces. They are never allowed to land on surfaces that are not deiced as the longer stopping distances can be quite an issue when they exceed the runway length.
Skidding the front wheels does not cause a loss of control if you are going in a straight line, only if you attempt to steer while panic braking, not a generally good course of action.
Once you exceed the coefficient of friction and the tires are sliding (the definition of the former), you definitely do lose control!
If you happen to be in a situation where you coincidentally do not want to change the direction at all, then physics works for you (an object in motion tends to stay in motion and will not change direction without an external force applied). You have the illusion of control.
However, if you hit the slightest imperfection on the roadway that provides that redirecting force you will find out just how little control you have as you ride the vehicle wherever it is then headed.
I would also agree that the "wedging affect" of snow is probably negligible. That coupled with the fact that the vast majority of American drivers cannot remember the last time they drove on anything but asphalt or concrete (I live in Texas and I can't remember! And, trust me, you that do are in the minority), so I would argue that the negative affects possible with ABS fall way under the 80/20 rule.
I think the nail has been hit on the proverbial head with the idea that the lack of improved safety from ABS can be traced to the increased aggressiveness of us drivers in general. We take advantage of the added safety by pushing the safety envelope farther and so see no net improvement in real-world safety. But, man, are we ever getting there faster (well, maybe not actually), and in a far more exciting manner. Is hyper-tension on the rise?
Plus the benefits of ABS also applies to dry roads.
Gravel can be loosey-goosey with or without ABS. I rarely remember that I can steer when I stomp my brakes (usually on snow when that happens), but I felt that the ABS did help me steer clear a couple of times on snow when opposing traffic slid over the line.
Steve, Host
This is not something I worry too much about (stopping distance on a dirt road) but in answer to the question posed it is a difference worth noting between ABS and non ABS.
And don't tell Alaska Airlines that they can't land in Anchorage or Fairbanks unless the runway is deiced. And is Dead Horse still pea gravel?
Oh, and ABS was added to airliners as a safety measure, to prevent loss of directional control (extremely hazardous, that), NOT to shorten stopping distances.
i don't think these ABS/VSC systems are serviceable are they?
would you drive these vehicles with the system failed? would you knowingly drive with the airbag (frontal, side, or curtain) system failed?
Doubt they'll do that to the ABS. ABS works, why would car companies try to disable it?
http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/rr/abs.htm
i don't think these ABS/VSC systems are serviceable are they?
would you drive these vehicles with the system failed? would you knowingly drive with the airbag (frontal, side, or curtain) system failed?
I totally agree with the previous post that once VSC becomes standard on all vehicles, it will control the front wheel ABS. At that point drivers will experience the best of both worlds -control and stability. Until then, front wheel ABS will continue to extend stopping distances on rough surfaces. Whether that is "negligible" would probably depend on whether you stopped before or after you were broadsided at an intersection.
And I thought jets locked the front wheels on landing so they can't "steer" until they are down and ready to taxi to the gate.
Norbn, links are fine.
Spartanmann, there's still a lot of granite looking sand on the side of the hilly road I live on left over from the winter and it's slippery. I'm sure I could get the ABS to kick in nicely on it :-)
Steve, Host
I'm new to this Sienna forum (but have been reading for quite some time this and other Sienna 2004 related discussions since I'm preparing myself for negotiations.)
So, here is my question. Can anyone comment on effectiveness of the hood protector and/or any side effects of one (i.e. increased noise level at higher speeds, etc.)
Thanks.
My landings at Anchorage and Fairbanks were mostly Pan-Am, and in the wintertime there was no hope of removing the thin layer of hard frozen ice on the runways at those temperatures. I can't imagine how they might do it even today.
Oh, the runway always "looked" clear, but in truth was coated with ice. Queasy feeling as the aircraft slewed left and right slightly down the runway on landing.
The Barrow flight was all cargo igloos in the front half of the Alaska jet. Lot of CR-Vs there but didn't see any Siennas.
The aging Odyssey seems to be holding its own against the Sienna in the surveys:
AutoPacific Announces 2004 Vehicle Satisfaction Awards
We have a comparison going over in Honda Odyssey vs Toyota Sienna; feel free to join in.
Steve, Host
Similar information to what I spoke of can be found here:
http://www.abs-education.org/faqs/faqindex.htm
Quote: "In what circumstances might conventional brakes have an advantage over ABS? There are some conditions where stopping distance may be shorter without ABS. For example, in cases where the road is covered with loose gravel or freshly fallen snow, the locked wheels of a non-ABS car build up a wedge of gravel or snow, which can contribute to a shortening of the braking distance."
We are considering getting a Sienna, and I was wondering:
Are leather seats more comfortable?
My post was purely to dispell an illusion posted by others that ABS provides shorter controlled stops in all situations. This is simply false and can lead to some unfortunate consequences if the driver is not aware of the actual limitations. ABS does provide controlled stops, just not necessarily shorter stops in all situations. Rear wheel ABS is essential.
Front wheel ABS is an improvement on icy and wet pavement, but not so for gravel and rough surfaces.
Your owners manual makes this VERY CLEAR!
You're right. The widespread acceptance of ABS by auto manufacturers and racing teams is all a big conspiracy. Oh by the way, the black helicopters are circling outside too.
The Attack on Anti-Lock Brakes
Fixing Antilock Brakes
Steve, Host
The fundamental problem, identified in the second link is that most drivers don't have a clue how to use ABS to its potential, and suffer from the "moral hazard" phenomena which makes them think that ABS makes them invincible (also commonly demonstrated by drivers of AWD/4WD vehicles in the snow). ABS isn't the problem, lack of driving skill is.
Try the Toyota Sienna Owners: Future Models discussion.
Steve, Host
Steve, Host
I'm the proud owner of a new 8-passenger Sienna LE with option package 11 (the Stereo/DVD combo). The van shares garage space with my '00 ECHO and, as you might imagine, is in many ways the polar opposite of that car. The ECHO's reliability helped sell me on the Sienna, so I hope my faith in Toyota is well-placed.
We had to order our Sienna XLE (with pkg #5)to get the options and avoid the leather. I personally think leather (SEATING SURFACES only, remember)is way over rated in most cars. Mostly because the leather used in mass appeal autos is of fair to poor quality. I remember all the vinyl seats cars used to have and most of the leather you get in cars today feels no better than the vinyl. Yes, you can get quality leather seats but you typically find it only in premium autos. The leather in the Sienna we test drove did not impress me in the least.
Try out both leather and cloth and weigh the pros and cons of each. One big advantage of leather is that spills clean up easily.
The same could be said of Granny's clear vinyl sofa "protector" slip covers, but I never was comfortable sitting on them. Of course, the sofa looked great for whoever inherited it! ;-)
So far, I have yet to see leather seats in any vehicle that still look good after 3 years of use. They stretch. They sag. They bunch. They wrinkle. They take on a rich patina clearly delimiting the (as Jay Leno would put it) buttockal area that has spent the most time on the seat.
For many years now, cloth seats have held up much better, even if they sometimes would require stain removal. Most that I have seen have suffered very little such need. Perhaps fabric protectors and the new fibers are responsible for their generally excellent and easy cleanup. They are certainly very tough and wear very well.
I do believe, if it were necessary, I would actually pay the premium for the cloth. But, hey! I don't have to! ;-)
Of course there are downsides to leather as well, like BBQ thigh on hot summer days.
Stephen
MBTex is not leather in any shape manner or form, it is indeed a Vinyl product albeit a very good one. MB Tex like many of the high quality vinyls offered by European makers lasts much longer than most any leather can.
Toyota uses a highly processed leather that is very finished. It will last for a long tme, but ten years may be a bit beyond its ability. Just as ten years may be beyond the Toyota fabric's life as well.
Also, where do you guys see these packages on the toyota website?
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2004/toyota/sienna/100257809/options.h- tml?x=95&y=17&tid=edmunds.n.prices.pricebox..1.Toyota*
GT
XLE Package #19
Includes power moonroof with sunshade, leather trimmed seats, second and third row side sunshades, 17" x 6.5" alloy wheels, P225/60R17 all season tires, rear seat audio, 2 wireless headphones, front side airbags, front, rear and third row curtain airbags, DVD rear entertainment system and DVD navigation system. NOT AVAILABLE with HG.
GJ
XLE Package #16
Includes stability control, traction control, brake assist, rear disc brakes, windshield wiper de-icer, daytime running lamps, power moonroof with sunshade, leather trimmed seats, second and third row side sunshades, heated front seats, rear seat audio, JBL Synthesis AM/FM stereo, 6-disc in-dash CD changer, cassette player, 10 speakers, 2 wireless headphones, front side airbags, front, rear and third row curtain airbags and DVD rear entertainment system. NOT AVAILABLE with GK, GT, HG.
GC
XLE Package #13
Includes power moonroof with sunshade, leather trimmed seats, second and third row side sunshades, heated front seats, rear seat audio, JBL Synthesis AM/FM stereo, 6-disc in-dash CD changer, cassette player, 10 speakers, 2 wireless headphones, 17" x 6.5" alloy wheels, P225/60R17 all season tires and DVD rear entertainment system. NOT AVAILABLE with GH, GI, GJ, GK, GT, HG.
GI
XLE Package #15
Includes power moonroof with sunshade, leather trimmed seats, second and third row side sunshades, 17" x 6.5" alloy wheels, P225/60R17 all season tires, rear seat audio, 2 wireless headphones, front side airbags and front, rear and third row curtain airbags and DVD rear entertainment system. NOT AVAILABLE with GJ, GK, GT, HG.
GH
XLE Package #14
Includes stability control, traction control, brake assist, rear disc brakes, windshield wiper de-icer, daytime running lamps, power moonroof with sunshade, leather trimmed seats, second and third row side sunshades, heated front seats, JBL Synthesis AM/FM stereo, 6-disc in-dash CD changer, cassette player, 10 speakers, front side airbags and front, rear and third row curtain airbags. NOT AVAILABLE with GI, GJ, GK, GT, HG.
FR
XLE Package #12
Includes stability control, traction control, brake assist, rear disc brakes, windshield wiper de-icer, daytime running lamps, leather trimmed seats, second and third row side sunshades, heated front seats, front side airbags, front, rear and third row curtain airbags, P225/60R17 all season tires and 17" x 6.5" alloy wheels. NOT AVAILABLE with GC, GH, GI, GJ, GK, GT, HG.
FP
XLE Package #11
Includes power moonroof with sunshade, leather trimmed seats, second and third row side sunshades, 17" x 6.5" alloy wheels, P225/60R17 all season tires, front side airbags and front, rear and third row curtain airbags. NOT AVAILABLE with FR, GC, GH, GI, GJ, GK, GT, HG.
FC
XLE Package #10
Includes power moonroof with sunshade, leather trimmed seats, second and third row side sunshades, heated front seats, JBL Synthesis AM/FM stereo, 6-disc in-dash CD changer, cassette player, 10 speakers, P225/60R17 all season tires, and 17" x 6.5" alloy wheels. NOT AVAILABLE with FP, FR, GC, GH, GI, GJ, GK, GT, HG.
ES
XLE Package #9
Includes power moonroof with sunshade, leather trimmed seats, second and third row side sunshades, heated front seats, JBL Synthesis AM/FM stereo, 6-disc in-dash CD changer, cassette player and 10 speakers. NOT AVAILABLE with FC, FP, FR, GC, GH, GI, GJ, GK, GT, HG.
EP
XLE Package #8
Includes power moonroof with sunshade, leather trimmed seats, second and third row side sunshades and heated front seats. NOT AVAILABLE with ES, FC, FP, FR, GC, GH, GI, GJ, GK, GT, HG.
GK
XLE Package #17
Includes leather trimmed seats, second and third row side sunshades, heated front seats, front side airbags and front, rear, and third row curtain airbags. NOT AVAILABLE with GT, HG.
EI
XLE Package #7
Includes power moonroof with sunshade, leather trimmed seats, second and third row side sunshades, 17" x 6.5" alloy wheels, P225/60R17 all season tires, JBL Synthesis AM/FM stereo, 6-disc in-dash CD changer, cassette player and 10 speakers. NOT AVAILABLE with EP, ES, FC, FP, FR, GC, GH, GI, GJ, GK, GT, HG.
CZ
XLE Package #5
Includes stability control, traction control, brake assist, rear disc brakes, windshield wiper de-icer, daytime running lamps, power moonroof with sunshade, front side airbags and front, rear and third row curtain airbags. NOT AVAILABLE with DG, EI, EP, ES, FC, FP, FR, GC, GH, GI, GJ, GK, GT, HG.
DG
XLE Package #6
Includes power moonroof with sunshade, leather trimmed seats, and second and third row side sunshades. NOT AVAILABLE with EI, EP, ES, FC, FP, FR, GC, GH, GI, GJ, GK, GT, HG.
CY
XLE Package #4
Includes leather trimmed seats, second and third row side sunshades and heated front seats. NOT AVAILABLE with CZ, DG, EI, EP, ES, FC, FP, FR, GC, GH, GI, GJ, GK, GT, HG.
HG
XLE Package #20
Includes power moonroof with sunshade, front side airbags and front, rear and 3rd row curtain airbags.
CX
XLE Package #3
Includes leather trimmed seats and second and third row side sunshades. NOT AVAILABLE with CY, CZ, DG, EI, EP, ES, FC, FP, FR, GC, GH, GI, GJ, GK, GT, HG.
CU
XLE Package #2
Includes power moonroof with sunshade. NOT AVAILABLE with CX, CY, CZ, DG, EI, EP, ES, FC, FP, FR, GC, GH, GI, GJ, GK, GT, HG.
CP
XLE Package #1
Includes stability control, traction control, brake assist, rear disc brakes, windshield wiper de-icer and daytime running lamps. NOT AVAILABLE with CU, CX, CY, CZ, DG, EI, EP, ES, FC, FP, FR, GC, GH, GI, GJ, GK, GT, HG.
There are only four packages on the XLE without leather, none of them have DVD.
Might I suggest an aftermarket DVD for much less money or even a portable DVD (or even several) that you remove from the car when not in use (less likely to be stolen, easy to have repaired).
I swear I saw a XLE Sienna with cloth seats and a DVD at the dealership though.
As an aside, does anyone know if any minivans are available with true side airbags (designed to protect the torso) for the second and third rows?
Several high end luxury cars (Audi, BMW, MB) offer side airbags in the rear, all of them recomend that the bags be deactivated for children if they are the primary occupants.
Side curtain airbags don't have the same problem as they extend from the top and hug the window line closely and will generally not hit a person before the person hits it. It is a good idea to ensure your children are never leaning against the side of the car. In the Sienna due to the arrangement of the seating it is not possible to really lean on the window sill.
If you are really concerned about side impact safety for your children, please consider the new Britax seats:
http://www.britaxusa.com/products.cfm?action=ShowProduct&pro_- id=55919304-ADD8-4E21-84D0D7E6C23B708C
http://www.britaxusa.com/products.cfm?action=ShowProduct&pro_- id=E1B65DDE-13AE-4AB6-BEE87A144FAFBCB5
I have a Sienna with package 7 which includes side airbags, side curtain airbags and VSC and highly recommend them all. A few dollars invested at purchase could reap huge cost savings and quality of life benefits someday in the future.