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I think they should pick the Mazda 6 and do away with the others. That car has great potential. The only prblem I thought is had were slightly questionable ergo, a terrible stereo in the base version and bad mileage (compared to Camry /Accord). Otherwise, it is right up there and handling wise is probably the best.
Sigh. But then again I guess if Ford started doing that, it would be a smart move, something they dont possibly want to do.
I will never get this Ford/GM/Chrysler strategy of making multiple mediocre vehicles for the same segment instead of making one kick-[non-permissible content removed] car.
The Fusion SE (after adding AT, 6cd changer with MP3, ABS and DRL) comes to $19,221 - which includes the $1,000 rebate and is below MSRP. It is the TMV price which broadly reflects what is actually being paid.
The Accord SE with AT comes to $21,419 (no options added because everything is standard).
Now to get a hang of real world depreciation (and not projections 3 years out which may/may not be true) I got the TMV used private party price of 2006 models of both cars with exactly the same options as the above new cars and 15,000 miles (I used the color black everywhere).
The result
Ford Fusion
New: $19,221
Used: $14,578
Depreciation: 28% ($1000 rebate has been added back to the base to calculate depreciation because it did not exist when the currently prices used car was purchased new)
Honda Accord
New: $21,419
Used: $17,573
Depreciation: 18%
So for the extra $2,200 that you shell out for the Accord over the Fusion, you get a car which
- Has much better resale value
- Is a proven reliable car (any new car will carry additional risk premium around it)
- Mileage better by at least 4-5mpg
- A more powerful engine (marginally so, but noticeable)
- A much better interior, not scrapped from crappy trucks
On the flip side, you get somewhat dated styling. Handling wise both are reasonably good.
You can do your own math around these numbers. For me it is worth a deal, especially when you also look at the current state and projected future of both companies. For all you know, a year from now Ford will be in dire straits and start another round of employee discount pricing and mass sales to rental fleet to demolish the value of your car. I dont see that happening with Honda. I would still pay the premium for the Accord.
Of course you may chose differently.
Note: The discounted dealer financing is a trade-off with the $1000 off. You get this or that, you dont get both. This is standard across all manufacturers.
Plus, the Fusion was nominated for "Best Interior" awards last year, but gee...unfortunately it lost it to the Lincoln Zephyr, it's luxury sibling.
According to information here on edmunds.com it is not an either/or in this case. Perhaps this is an error on edmunds part, but there certainly is nothing that prevents a manufacturer from structuring these offers whatever way they choose to. For example, when we purchased a VW it was discount financing or nothing.
The average mpg difference is about 1-2 mpg, depending on whether you use CR numbers or government numbers. Accord is higher on the highway, but there is little to no difference in city or mixed figures.
Not that I really want to debate depreciation, since I am not one who trades cars in, but...
Depreciation: 28% ($1000 rebate has been added back to the base to calculate depreciation because it did not exist when the currently prices used car was purchased new)
So in other words the real depreciation of Fusion would be 20%, using your numbers (and a couple hundred less that Accord when measured in dollars, which is what really matters). Fusion has had rebates and/or discount financing since its introduction.
If you have seen the center console in the Fusion (and the Taurus) and also seen the center console in the new Camry, for example, and would still in some way like to justify the former by quoting sales statistics of trucks, may all your future cars come with the same interior.
I quoted mileage numbers depending upon what I observed on on my own drives in multiple cars along the same route (mostly highway). I find most of these quoted numbers to be quite unreliable. For example, this weekend I drove the Mazda6 to and from NYC from DC (clean highway miles) and got 20mpg! On the same route I have gotten 22 out of the Fusion and 27 out of the Camry (also 17 out of the Sonata).
I have not followed Fusion prices from the start so I am unaware of the discounts. I would also be VERY surprised. What kind of new, potentially revolutionary, car launch needs discounts from the get go?
I think therein lies a story.
The Taurus has a different layout (radio and A/C and everything else) than that of the Fusion or F-150. Plus, the F-150 was last redesigned in 2004, and the Fusion in 2006. Yes, the new Camry will be better since it's a newly introduced vehicle. Usually when a vehicle is redesigned, it tries to better the competition one up. When the Fusion gets it's next redesign, then I'm sure it'll aim to the top for it's segment, AT THAT time.
As it was, I'm reporting the information for 2006. But when the 2007 awards are given, I'll post the info as usual. AIC Link
But to say Ford trucks have crappy interiors is absurd and a malinformed statement.
No. Mileage patterns depend highly on driving style. And it has also been observed on Edmunds roadtests many many times that the actual mileage obtained is way off the stated mileage, many time highway/city combined coming was off even city mileage (mostly lower).
I very clearly quoted what I noticed on the same roads amongst many cars something called 'real world mileage' and just in case you didnt know, every car forum has a thread on this topic, including this one. So obviously, consumers notice a difference.
Where did you get your depreciation percentages from?
A little more attention to my post would show you the clear method and math I used to get to those percentages.
What do you mean $2700 more than a Fusion??, Camry is like $4,000 more for a like optioned Fusion SEL V6 loaded...
Clearly people as well as professional auto journalists beliieve that a Camry XLE V6 (which amongst many other things smokes out a Fusion SEL V6 while giving more mileage) is better than the Fusion. Also post depreciation the gap is somewhat closer to $2.5k.
Also, I believe is price is the only criteria, the Sonata is a much better deal than the Fusion.
Anyways, what is the 'extra' that the Camry worth to you? Obviously less than what it is worth to me. Hence I will still claim the Camry is better, while you are free to claim otherwise.
Clearly the Camry charges a premium and people are paying the premium for a reason (whatever that may be) while Ford had to offer discounts on a brand new car.
And also clearly, for some people the price differential is sufficient to sway them in the direction of the Fusion.
Nothing wrong with either thing. Everything can sell at a certain price.
It will compare the price of two cars, matching them feature for feature. Matched feature for feature, the Fusion comes out to 2458 less when bare minimum features are matched, and 2634 when the cars are loaded, but matched.
These prices include any rebates. But of course some things can't be perfectly matched. The Accord has 23 more HP, but the Fusion has a 6 speed transmission (vs. the Accord's 5) as well as AWD.
The last long trip we went on the calculated mileage, in a single vehicle varied from tank to tank by about 4-5 mpg. This was despite it all being pretty much consistent freeway driving at fairly consistent speeds (the high and low figures both occurred during stretches that were all freeway). Some of the variation could certainly be due to some pumps filling the tank fuller than others, etc. but, in any case, the measured mpg can vary quite a bit even with the same driver and car.
Sonata pricing is pretty similar to the Fusion, actually.
Also if you look hard enough, you could get an Accord for about $2000 off sticker, not all dealers will do it, but you will find some that will. Toyota/Honda do not like to talk about discounts/rebates, but dealers will do whatever it takes to sell cars.
I was in Japan for three weeks last year. I saw so many different style Toyotas. Everey day I would see ANOTHER Toyota model that I had not seen before. I realized that these people are truley master of flexibility that can build so many versions with little volume at a time and switch to another style.
Good luck with your Fusions, and I hope all remain reliable for years to come. Reliability (Not the good loooks) is the key to repeat customers and good resale value.
Joe
I compared the Accord SE and Fusion SE by adding DRL, ABS, the 6cd changer and AT/x to the Fusion. Given the specs on the website, thats the closest you can get. Also, the TMV price better reflects the actual selling price.
And thanks for using the website of the internet's self proclaimed (and self promoted) auto expert and Detroit apologist Michael Karesh. I wish you would stick to tried and tested and fair sites like Edmunds instead of running off to crazy places.
I actually always hit the same mileage within a range of mpg in my car when driving around similar areas. Also, this was not a single trip mileage but an average of about 3 trips in this car and each time, the numbers were really close.
Sonata pricing is pretty similar to the Fusion, actually.
Actually no. I just helped a friend get a V6 Sonata for $17.3k (after tax and registration). You dont even get an I4 Fusion SE for that much. If we start considering discounts, then the Sonata has much more. Also, they do stand behind their product with 5yr bumper to bumper, 7 year tranny and 5 yr roadside.
Oh, and it also has ABS (optional on Fusion) and stability control (not available on Fusion) standard. Given all that, the Fusion hardly even compares!
Rather than relying on anecdotes, I have looked at invoice less rebate prices for 2007 models (I know I could buy either of these at invoice quite easily). V6 Sonata invoice starts at $19,071, while V6 Fusion starts at $18,947. Both prices are after deducting $1000 rebate that is available to anyone (Sonata has additional owner loyalty rebate, but I did not include this).
In addition, Ford has discount financing and after checking elswhere it seems that you do get keep the $1000 rebate, even if you take this financing.
Depending on what features are important to you, and assuming you like the type of ride/handling that the Sonata gives you, and are comfortable with the seats and non-telescoping wheel in the Sonata, it can be probably be a better buy than the Fusion.
In the case of Honda/Toyota, when looking at selling prices it actually would be the Civic and Corolla that would be more comparable to the Fusion.
HTH
Yet 2006 Fusion uses 2004 F-150 center console. It is thing that customer notices and touches all the time and how stupid should be Ford management to save pennies on things so critical for customers. This center panel is on every Ford product. Center console in my 2003 Ford Focus is better than in Fusion. Why not to use the same center console from European Mondeo? Mazda can come up with convinient and stylish console, why Ford cannot?
And like anything else, the negative is that when people wish to upgrade their headunit...they simply won't, can't, won't bother, maybe not possible, or use some cheesy aftermarket panel to retrofit it.
You can't please everyone...
Actually center panel was one thing that irritated me in new Mustang. Another thing is shifter – feels flimsy and not easy to use. And also solid rear axles does not help handling so cannot call Mustang real sport car. Mustang is a solid and well-designed car. But some things need improvement.
As far as driving better, the Fusion feels much better and more confident to me than the Camry did when I test drove. Also, someone posted actual noise levels inside the cabin of the Accord/Camry/Fusion/Sonata. These noise measureing devices don't lie. Fusion is not as noisy as you percieve..
I guess it all comes down to asking yourself is the $2-$4,000 dollar difference really worth it when comparing a Camry/Accord tot the Fusion/Milan? For me, no-way.. That is why I have a shiney new Fusion SEL v6 in silver frost sitting in my garage..
I think that pretty much sums it up. And as a car lover, I do always wish that Ford/Gm etc come up with awesome cars to keep Toyota and Honda from becoming pricey. I have seen some seriously disgusting behavior from Honda as well as Toyota dealers. The fun of a free market is when everyone is competing and no one or two people are unfairly dominating.
Having said that, though. I still think Ford/GM/Chrysler have a looooong way to go. My flatmate has a Chrysler 300 and inspite of the good looks and power, the interior looks seriously trashy with really cheapo plastics.
I dont care much either about the Fusion or the Camry btw (except for the fact that I will still prefer the Camry and Accord over the Fusion for my rental trips). I am not planning to buy either in the near future. That honor will go to either the redesigned G35 coupe or the 335coupe, depending on how nice the first one comes out
is the same as this F-150:
Yes the radio is the same and the HVAC controls are the same but that seems like it to me. (The Fusion shown has EACT but if it didn't, it would have the same HVAC as the F-150.
This is a Camary:
My problem with the Fusion and Mustang that I own is that I wish the radio, HVAC controls (which are basically the same in both cars) were mounted higher so as to be out of the way of the shifter, especially on the Mustang which is stick. They did this with the Edge, but I'm conflicted because I think the Fusion center stack looks better.
Here is the Edge so you know what I mean. Moving the vents to the sides allowed them to put things up higher:
I do like the new Shifter though. If you really want to know where some of the interior bits on the Fusion came from, look to the 1998 Mazda 626, cause that is where that shifter came from.
As for the controls in all Fords being the same, thats the point. Why should someone who decides to own a second Ford vehicle, be punished by having to learn to work a second interior? I hope Ford continues to do this.
Two comments about the Toyota. Those smooth round climate control knobs give you no feed back about how they are pointed from touch. The Ford knobs you turn the long knob which then points to the setting so you don't need to actually take your eyes off the road to know what it is set too.
Second, all of that "satin alum." plastic in the Camary will look like [non-permissible content removed] in about two years. The stuff is very very easy to scratch. Don't believe me, go look at a preowned Mazda6. Probably why Mazda used tons of that plastic in the Mazda 6 and Ford did not use any in the Fusion. Incidently, the Alum you see around the radio on the Edge is metal, not plastic.
Notice with the Fusion you get repeat audio controls on the wheel? Where are they on the Camary? Also, you don't have to Navigate through that annoying shift gate on the ATX with the Fusion. Anyone know if the Camary has an MP3 input jack? The F-150, Fusion and Edge do, standard.
Mark.
People will still be buying the Camry in multiples of what the Fusion sells, and Toyota will continue to profit nicely from each sale. Ford, not so sure what its future holds.
I guess it all comes down to asking yourself is the $2-$4,000 dollar difference really worth it when comparing a Camry/Accord tot the Fusion/Milan? For me, no-way..
scape, please stop with your media campaign to convince us that we all paid too much for our cars. It has not, can not, and will not work. We all like our rides for various attributes. Choice is good. Competition is good. Why can't you leave it at that and move on?
I guess for the same reason you can't stop preaching that Toyota will forever dominate the car/truck market, never to be toppled, never to have any problems with any of their vehicles they produce.. so.. were even..
Just as GM sold Cavaliers for years at a overe $800 per unit loss, just to gain or work-around C.A.F.E. credits.
You did not, perhaps, mean the Corolla rather than Camry?
True, old habits die hard, even at the face of new facts.
For instance, if I were in the market for a V6 sedan, and I only buy cars with more cylinders than wheels, I'd hesitate to buy any from Ford, Honda and Toyota. Not from Ford because it's relatively weak, not from either of the other two because their V6 engines chew up their shared weak Aisin transmission, in spite of their fine power.
That leaves GM, Mazda and Nissan as contenders in my list (no Koreans). As I've had enough of the venerable 3.8 GM push-rod, GM doesn't have any offers with the 3.6 DOHC engine for a competitive price. The 6 has the same weak V6 as the Fusion, but it's narrower and noisier than the Ford. Which leaves only Nissan with its aging and expensive Maxima, as its Altima has a horrible torque steer.
The bottom line is that there's no compelling offer to me. At the moment, I'll sit out this vintage of cars.
And most of all lets remember, these are family sedans, not sports cars.
Ford IS making a profit on the Fusion/Milan/MKZ. The past few years the mantra has been if it's NOT posting a profit, it's not getting built which means less to fleet sales as well.
Yes, it is. It's got a "peaky" torque curve and needs to be revved to yield its power. At the moment, all my three cars are American, so I'm not a Japanese car fan-boy, but Toyota and Honda developed fine V6 engines with broad power bands.
Maybe the 3.5 will be better, but we know that it'll be a while until it makes to the Fusion.
As I said, as I and no one else buys the cars I drive, I'll sit this vintage out and enjoy no car payments for at least a couple of years.
At 60 mph 0.8 seconds translates to 70 feet so if vehicles move with constant speed after reaching reaching 60 mph Camry would be several lengths of ahead. You still think it's not whole lot? :P
Disclaimer - not a Camry fan, actually would choose Fusion over it if it had standard ABS, better crashworthiness, and the 3.5, which I understand will come in 2008. Oh - I forgot - it needs to be a wagon or hatchback with a stick shift
2018 430i Gran Coupe
I am not sure that you know about latest GN offers. This engine is offered on both Pontiac G6 and Saturn Aura. Check out Aura - you will be surprised. And they are more affordable than anything from Japanese Big Three.
" Which leaves only Nissan with its aging and expensive Maxima, as its Altima has a horrible torque steer"
I thought Maxima and Altima use the drive train. And I think that I am right. If you did not notice torque steer on Maxima – please check it again.
And there is a new Altima (but not Maxima yet) which supposedly has less torque steer than previous model.
No, I still beg to differ with you, the 3.0 Duratec with the VVT now available is not "weak". The Fusion weighs less than many of its competitors also. Its power and torque are almost identical. Its torque curve is actually very good. Plus, this engine is made to rev and can do so with little problem.
I am not trying to argue that the Camry V6 would best the Fusion V6.. This would be a argument I could not win, along with looking foolish trying to do so.
60 mph = 88 ft/second * 0.8 seconds = 70.4 feet.
That's the math and it's correct, except that it's the wrong formula. That formula says that if one car is doing 60 mph MORE than the other car then it will be 70.4 feet ahead after 0.8 seconds. Of course in a 0-60 run the difference between the 2 vehicles is never 60 mph, even at the end.
I drove a LaCrosse with that engine and loved it! Variable cam phasing, when well done, is a 4 valves per cylinder engine's best friend: low-end grunt and plenty of high-end breathing.
Perhaps the new Altima has an improved suspension and even-length half-shafts, but I hesitate at Nissan. Besides, with the V6 it gets into Maxima territory...
Again, nothing that appealing in this vintage...
I'm not at all impressed with the 2007 Altima except for styling.
Mark.
Fusion: it runs distance dv*t/2=88ft/sec*7.2sec*0.5=316.8 ft
Camry: it runs distance dv*(t-0.8sec)+v*0.8sec = 88ft/sec*6.4sec*0.5+88ft/sec*0.8sec = 352 ft
So, I was wrong - 70.4 ft is way too much, but 352-317=35 ft, which is still quite a bit, isn't it. I think I got it right this time, except if the acceleration rate is not constant, the results may be reduced or increased.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
We all get caught up in 0-60; there are better tests for more real life situation - many European magazines compare 60-100 km/h (about 40-60) on 4th gear and 80-120 km/h (50-75) on fifth, as real passing situations. Much more informative for every day performance. We don't have these tests here, I guess mostly because automatic transmissions, or perhaps plain lazyness of the magazine staff.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Well the very fact that we are discussing V6's over here, and the act that people do spend extra money and give up gas mileage for a more powerful engine shows that appeal for power is universal. More power is always good, and a .8 second gap is quite big. And you may chose to feel happy otherwise but a Camry gets more mileage that the Fusion bith real world as well as EPA.
Once again, I never said the Fusion is a bad car. If this were 2003/2004 it would have the market floored. But this is 2007 and other manufacturers have moved on. Even the Sonata Hyundai introduced 2 years back (by replicating as much of the Honda/Toyota they could) has the Fusion beat.
And Accord/Camry have become the segment benchmarks for a reason. The new Camry took that reason a couple of steps forward and the 2008 Accord will also most probably do the same. People know that if they are not in the mood of too much research o anything, they can buy one of these two off the shelf and not be worse off. Though one may have heard good things about other cars (like the Fusion), buying them still requires some closer scrutiny.
For Ford etc to win they will have to break that mentality. They will also have to ensure that people think the same way about their cars too. But the Fusion is still short of reaching that point.
And more that that, I think feel wise the Fusion engine is the worst. The Camry/Accord/Sonata engines do not feel peaky and the run-up is very smooth. You are at triple digits before you even realize it.
The Mazda3 is peaky in a very nice and entertaining way. You simply love revving that engine coz it feels awesome. when you floor the Fusion it feels like it is groaning and complaining and is being forced to accelerate. It doesnt feel smooth at all.
And once again, this is not the result of driving the car on a min test drive. I rent these cars every week for business trips across reasonable distances and its almost equivalent to owning each and every of these cars, which I dont think most members here can claim. I dont think you can know everything about a car in a 5 min test-drive on city. streets.
I am not a slow driver and definitely not slow to accelerate. When I floor the gas in these cars with the I-4, I really don't think "I wish it would accelerate faster".
I think most buy a V6 in any of these midsize cars because they are afraid that the engine will break if they rev it above about 3000 rpm. Or they just can not stand to actually hear the engine and so they keep it at low rpm for that reason.
Your sure about this? better get out on the net and visit some other chat rooms. There are Camry owners wondering when their EPA #'s are supposed to appear for the V6.
"And more that that, I think feel wise the Fusion engine is the worst. The Camry/Accord/Sonata engines do not feel peaky and the run-up is very smooth. You are at triple digits before you even realize it."
Worst engine, in what way? I could only assume you mean HP/Torque? The Duratec with VVt revs quite nicely and confidently. It has already been proven, over and over until I am blue in the face showing the actual Decibel numbers from Camry/Accord/Sonata. The Fusion is not any "louder" when reving up. When I hit the gas going 70mph I'm at triple digits also in my Fusion pretty quick.
Much of this is perception. This is what Ford needs to overcome. I still blame some of this on the media over the years bashing and trashing anything Ford or GM. The Fusion/Milan are great cars. They are proving to be very reliable. Fit/finish/quality is very good and on par with Accord/Camry. Image is what Ford now needs to overcome.
That may be, but in one area Fusion is well behind its competionion that is general safety: features (ABS, traction control, side airbags) and structural crashworthiness (front impact and side impact). Perhaps not extactly a death trap, but definitely well behind competition in the general price/size range. There are some signs of improvement (side airbags std.), but there is still a distance to go.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
I like where the radio is in the Mustang actually. I rest my hand on the shifter (mine's a stick too) a lot and find that I only have to lift my index finger to reach a lot of the buttons. That means I don't have to take my eyes off of the road as much when passing Camries, Accords, Fusions, and Sonatas at warp speed. Why do they all insist upon racing? Is it because of forums like these which pump up their confidence? :P
As for the controls in all Fords being the same, thats the point. Why should someone who decides to own a second Ford vehicle, be punished by having to learn to work a second interior? I hope Ford continues to do this.
I'm with you there. Even my wife was able to work everything in my new Mustang without question due to her experience in her Explorer. It's a good stress reducer seeing as only one of us bothers to read the owner's manuals.
Second, all of that "satin alum." plastic in the Camary will look like [non-permissible content removed] in about two years. The stuff is very very easy to scratch. Don't believe me, go look at a preowned Mazda6.
I had a 2004 Mazda6 and can verify the scratching. Tiny little scratches were everywhere. You'll notice that the newer 6 does not have that silver plastic anymore. Any guesses why?