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Comments
-Andrew L
But the new GM minivans will mainly be unchanged, and everybody has seen the pics already, and said the likes and dislikes, now there is nothing to talk about anymore until after the first test drive.
Andrew: You say that there will still be 2005 models the older version until Nov/Dec. My question is if the new versions will be called 2006 MY? (2006 in 2004 does not make sense?).
-juice
~alpha
So that puts pressure on the value shopping niche.
-juice
This will still be one very COOL 2005 Oldsmobile Silhouette when I'm done with it!
You asked about the model years...The CSVs will be 2005 model year, because they will be available before the end of calendar year 2004. GM is doing the weird model year thing with some of their other new intros, too. For example, there is a 2005 Cavalier, to be replaced by the 2005 Cobalt at the end of the calendar year. I guess they are trying to get themselves back on a normal debut cycle, instead of having all their new models come out in the summer.
alpha01-
The Sienna you describe (CE w/safety package) is indeed a great deal. Too bad they seem to be vaporware here in northern NJ. They are theoretically orderable in this region, but my local dealership always has a lot full of XLE AWDs with $34,000 stickers and no CEs at all. I got my mom looking at vans again the other day, and she was not interested in anything that expensive. But at least she liked the Sienna's basic design, whereas her reaction to a 2004 Quest SE was, "$37,000 for this crap?"
By the way, we have a pretty big GM card rebate built up, so I'll get her to look at the CSVs when they come out. We might end up with one just because of price, though I'd wait to see how they fare in the crash tests before buying, since the current GM vans perform terribly.
-Andrew L
Besides, styling just isn't that important in this class. I don't think any of them look sexy. ;-)
The local no-haggle dealer has 9 Siennas, 3 are over $35k but all the others are under $30k, and one is even under $25k. You can find them if you look.
-juice
Yes, they are good but haven driven the current GM vans as rentals also, I think the new interior and upgraded mechanicals should be more competitive than some here are implying. I saw the Buick ad and the Terazza looked pretty slick.
And at least Honda's wheel covers are bolted on. So they won't fall off when you hit a pot hole, LOL.
-juice
Base Accords and Camrys come with pretty small rims, what 14" or so? You can get aftermarket 16" rims without having to pay for 14" alloys you don't want in the first place.
I bet they also exist for fleets and rental cars, too. Plus the huge bunch of non-enthusiast customers that probably don't even care.
-juice
Uplevel models (SE & XLE Camrys and EX Accords) have 16 inch wheels/tires standard, and 17 inch wheels/tires are available on the Accord EX V6 coupe, and will be available/standard on the Camry SE and XLE for 2005, depending on whether you have the 4 or either V6.
~alpha
-juice
Wheelcovers on vans and SUVs do make it look rental fleetish. The Rendezvous I rented clearly looked like something from Budget Rent A Car to anybody off the street, thanks to the dull gray paint and the wheel covers.
Spend a few hundred extra on a vehicle and get something that looks good I always say.
Anyone know when the new vans are coming? Have not seen anything yet.
That's actually not true. Have you seen the 2004 Dodge Durango ST and SLT with the silver painted wheels? Those are plastic wheel covers. They look just like alloys because the slots in the cover line up with the slots in the wheel, so no wheel is visible. The Ford Freestar wheel covers are like that too. I wish more companies would adopt this idea.
-Andrew L
According to GM, it will not be before Fall 2004. But as somebody mentioned above, it may not be until end of the year, and GM will even produce some current models for 2005.
Personally if we could afford the Sienna, or Quest and Odyssey for that matter, we wouldn't go with the Freestar unless it's close to $10K cheaper comparably equipped. Not to say the Freestar is not a capable van, it's got a few good things going for it such as safety and exterior looks. But the engine power, fuel efficiency and resale value simply are not up to its competitors level. Plus once you add a few necessities (e.g. canopy etc), you're looking at a price in the same range with the imports even after the rebates. That's just not gonna cut it for me.
Just off the top of my head, I wanna throw out some strategic moves to Ford AND GM AND Chrysler/Dodge:
1)make radical design changes inside and out to make your vans at least look modern and appealing! Need I say "Quest"? Style sells!
2)make radical engeering changes too. First, save all of us some trouble--just drop one kick-butt engine with kick-butt power and fuel efficiency (if you have one...if not MAKE one!) into all of your trim models, like Toyota, Honda, and Nissan all do! And while you're at it, drop in a 5-speed auto too. Or be a class leader--use a CVT transmission!
3)make all airbags(side, canopy, knee, etc), ABS and traction control standard. That takes care of the all important safety. Then make all of the cool features standard such as double power doors, power lifetgate, Stow-n-go or whatever else you wanna call it, adjustable pedals, etc. Leave the DVD and Navigation as options. And this takes care of comfort.
4)copy Hyundai's warranty!
Mass production of these extras will lower the cost. A better product will raise the price threshhold that the customers are willing to fork over. Then you set the MSRP somewhere in the middle to make it an irresistable value, and you have a winner! I garrantee you if you do this you'll shut up A LOT of people. And I'll be sure to get in line to check them out.
I still like the DC minivans exterior styling the best of the bunch, and with two wheel base versions and options from strippers to fully loaded, they cover the range of consumer budgets with a single platform with short and stretched versions.
Making all those features you mention standard would be severely limit any manufacturer's customer base by driving the base model cost upward, just as only offering a stripped down model would do the same.
Odd that you advocate a kick butt engine, then in nearly the same breath want all the safety features you can buy. The quality of the driver is still the biggest safety issue around, and gobs of available power can conflict with safe operation. No matter what you think, there is still a trade off between power and mpg, especially when that power is used for hard acceleration. Besides, these are minivans, not sports cars! Once you get to a point of adequate acceleration, which nearly all the current vans have when equipped with more than the base engine, you are talking very diminished demand by the vast majority of minivan customers.
Radical engineering changes bring about potential radical quality/reliablility issues. I'd prefer constant continuous improvement over radical design changes from year to year, with a more major update every 5 years or so. This allows for more resources applied to important features such as improved fuel efficiency, brakes, transmissions, etc, rather than styling related sheet metal redesign. Plus there is tremendous tooling costs for any radical new designs, which again will drive costs of production upward. Nissan is currently fighting the quality issues brought about by rapid introduction of many new models.
Side air bags are on the new GM vans but head curtains are not. A few years ago no one had curtains but I guess GM should try and get them in there. It's an issue but not a big one for most.
Nobody should follow Hyundai warranties. Hyundai has to have them, the big 6 makes do not. They hurt the bottom line and are not a big selling feature.
I don't think the new GM vans are any breakthrough, but I think they will be decent and will hold market for them till the all new vans (Lamda?) comes.
A 240 hp with good low end torque and 27 mpg mileage is kick butt enough for me, which is what the imports are already offering. Personally I actually don't think sportiness or the lack of is a big deal for minivans. Like badgerfan said, who is going all out in their minivan. That said, the D/C's 150 something hp and a 3-speed auto transmission is just pathetic. I hope they're not still offering those. I have to disagree with the notion that a high power engine is inherrantly incompatible with safety. It should help in that matter in the event of an emergency, as long as one exercises common sense in daily driving.
I guess my bottom line is in order to compete with the imports, the big three have to outdo them in every aspect. And that certainy requires something radical.
I don't fault DC for offering it. It may be underpowered, but still serves a market segment. Anyone who wants more power can easily get the 3.3 or 3.8 V-6's that are adequate. Choice is good in my opinion.
I'm certainly not defending GM, I have thought their minivans were mediocre and a step behind the competition dating way back to GM's first belated entry into this market, and the new ones are more of the same.
The current D/C vans do look decent if a tad conservative to me. Maybe they can style them in a more modern and appealing fasion when it comes to redesign. Vans don't have to look either goofy or antique. They could be radically classy and unique.
The Quest does seem to suffer from teething problems. But they'll be soon ironed out and Nissan will have a killer product.
GM owning so many brands certainly has the flexbility to come up distinct vans for distinct customer base in terms of price, style and options. The new vans look essentially the same inside and out for Chevy, Pontic, Buick and Saturn.
Don't get me wrong. I think all the domestic vans are very decent and will serve most of the folks just fine. But again, the big three will NOT hold their grounds for long if they're just satisfied with adequite vehicles. This applies to their complete line of products. Toyota already outsells Ford and is currently No 2. To compete, you have to OUTCLASS and OUTPERFORM your competitors in every way. Your products have to make your customers fall in love with them at first sight and completely blow them away. Think outside the box GM!
I think perhaps people in vans don't care as much about alloy wheel looks, it's not like you're going to get stares driving along in any minivan...so why try?
Perhaps GM's secret to success could be quicker or interim updates? Seems like the life cycles last forever.
-juice