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The Outback sedan gets no respect... I've liked it since I first saw it in the old (pre-2000) body design...must have been 1998...
http://www.aaa.asn.au/NCAP/PDF%20Docs/outbackc04.pdf
And this is the link to all the tests
http://www1.tpgi.com.au/users/mpaine/ncaplist.html
Tony T.
~alpha
:-)
-juice
Maybe none of this is for sure as we have not seen US production cars yet.....
JP
1/ There will be no naturally aspirated 4 cyl Outback models in the 2005 lineup...only turbo 4 and 6 cyl.
2/VDC will be offered through the whole Outback lineup.( no more paying a CAD13000 premium for that priviledge)
3/The price of the 2005 entry level outback will now be CAD 27000-28000.( They presently start at around CAD32000,so decreasing by about CAD5000).
Now this fellow was not theorizing about these things he was stating them as absolute facts.He was also the only rep circulating out on the floor at the time I was at the Subaru display.
.....SCARY..........My wife could have done better with a brochure in one hand!(not being misogynistic here, its just that she is not a car person).
Congratulations Subaru ,you get my goat of the year award for incompetence at this years show.
That price drop is also hard to believe given all the added content. I'd be thrilled if pricing was kept flat.
Lastly, VDC is only on the VDC from what we heard.
I think that rep was just plain drunk. I doubt all three statements.
-juice
Bob
It just shows that although a lot of car companies pour a ton of money into these shows they then manage to mess it up so badly by the personnel they have staffing the booths.I have noticed similar instances in the past specifically with Toyota and Mitsubishi, although I will give some kudos to VW this year as they seemed to have a handle on facts/figures and info on forthcoming products etc.
Still, I suppose that hope springs eternal and we can but dream that all 3 points come true.( not going to happen).
The complete 2005 Outback lineup will consist of the naturally aspirated Outback 2.5i and 2.5i Limited, turbo-charged Outback 2.5XT, and the Outback 3.0R, powered by the second generation of Subaru's 3.0-litre 6-cylinder engine. Outback 2.5i is equipped with the naturally aspirated 2.5-litre engine and will be offered with a choice of 5-speed manual transmission or Subaru's new 4-speed automatic with Sportshift®; the Sportshift® automatic is standard equipment on the 2.5i Limited . The 2.5XT turbo can be fitted with a 5-speed manual or a new Sportshift® 5-speed automatic. The Outback 3.0R is also equipped with the new 5-speed automatic. The choice of powertrains means that there's an Outback to fit the needs of virtually any active lifestyle.
***Given that that much is untrue, I wouldn't believe another word the man said...
Cheers Pat.
CAD27,000 for a T4 or H6 is wishful thinking indeed, I had that dream myself last night. And not having an N/A 4 loses Subaru their #1 seller and only model that can run on regular fuel.
Those prices are wrong.
For the record our Outbacks will come as a 2.5i, a 2.5i Limited, a 2.5T Limited, a 3.0R base and a 3.0R VDC Limited. The base Outback 2.5i will be close (within CAD1000) of the 2004 model. The Outback 2.5i Limited will be close to the current 2004 Outback 4 Limited, (which is a bit overpriced IMO). The price of the rest less easy to estimate, but I expect the 3.0R to be in the 36-38K range and the 2.5T to be in the 38-40K range.
I'm curious - which models did they show? H6 and turbo??
JP
You can't tell people's tones when they're written vs. spoken! ;-)
-juice
Jowett
Legacy GT Turbo here I come.....The car will be the hottest thing out there!
SoA is foolish to play games with the pricing info while they try to unload the inventory on the lots...Even when the new ones are here, I'm going to look at the remaining 04 LLBean's and VDC's and decide how to spend my $$....and I'm going to decide how many days each year I really need AWD.
Mark
Owen
They may still be doing final packaging, too.
-juice
The cars still don't come out for a Month and a 1/2. That seems like plenty of time to me.
The pricing wait is frustrating, but the 05s won't be in dealers lots in volume until the summer. I'm sure it's only the dealers with high rankings that will get 05s in May.
Ken
May be interested in the 3.0R (avialable in auto only) or the Outback XT (we would pick the 5 speed). I know we dont know the actual price, but anyone care to hazard a guess at which of these will be the more expensive model. The H6 3.0R comes with cloth seats and no moonroof (=cheaper) but only comes with auto (5EAT) (= more expensive). The Outback XT only comes with the moonroof and leather (=more expensive), but can be had with 5 speed (=cheaper). Is it really more expensive for subaru to make an automatic car, or is the typical upcharge for auto a marketing thing??
MSRP on the current cloth seat base model H6 wagon (Outback 35 Anniversary Wagon) in Canada is 35995, happens to be the same price as the PP1 MT Forester XT.
The new 3.0R has so much new stuff than the 04 - 17" wheels, 40 more hp, sportshift, side/curtain airbags, etc - expecting it to be anywhere near the price of the outgoing model may be a bit optimistic?? But if they price it too high, they will be in the range where everyone expects leather so will not sell too many.
Don't quite understand why Canada doesnt get the base Outback XT in cloth, Maybe MY 06.
JP
Ken
Bob
JP
Ken
It will be available in a sedan, OK it's an Outback sedan, but it is a sedan.
As for stability...well guess the Outback VDC wagon will have to suffice.
Cheers!
-Ian
Honda Accord Traction Control Edition?
Toyota Camry Stability Control Edition?
Subaru Outback Vehicle Dynamics Control Edition?
It seems odd that Subaru can get away with having a seperate model trim just for the VDC, but somehow they do.
I think that it should be standard on the VDC line, Standard on the GT/XT Line, and optional on the rest of the trims.
The turbocharged models should have it for when the turbo kicks in and alters the dynamics of the car, especially in snowy/icy conditions. (Isn't this one of Subaru's pride points: Safety in adverse weather?)
Anyway...
PS. Does any body know if the Legacy GT and Outback XT will get the VTD or will it be active all-wheel drive?
Ciao!
In addition, these models will have the optional 5EAT (standard on H6).
DaveM
Subuaru has led the safety charge thus far, why not make stability control an option on all of the new Legacy/Outbacks?
~alpha
Ken
One person's view but I believe that given the choices available to me I have a reasonable argument here. If I have a choice between an Infiniti G35x, Murano, Audi A4/A6, Pacifica, VW Passat, next gen. Fords and Chryslers, and Acuras all around $28k to $38K I might just choose the car that has the most safety features if everything else is equal. (Granted the Japanese brands including SOA have better reliability than the europeans and the US brands). So to keep folks like me as a SOA customer, charge for the VDC, but let me, the consumer, decide. Creating too many contrived niches will no longer work for SOA work given the plethora of AWDs coming between July 2004 and Feb 2005. SOA should focus on what they do best...sell a product that performs at a much higher level than the price you paid for. Safe cars with AWD is SOA's niche...they tried FWD sedans and failed. They can't compete against Accords and Camrys and Altimas volumes...maybe not even 6s. These cars can be had with VDC or will make VDC an option... In my opinion AWD loses some of the luster when this electronic wizardry is added. Proof: Check out the Popular Mechanics video of the RWD 300c on a frozen lake bed--if it is indeed a true rendition of what Stability Control can do for a 300HP RWD then AWD may no longer be a major safety selling factor except for a few number of consumers. So for SOA to stay in the game make the H6 and VDC available on sedans...if necessary, make it an option. Consumers will let you know if you planned it right. I will buy a 2.5GT or H6 Sedan (not outback) with VTD and VDC over an Accord, Camry, Altima, 6s, G35x, Murano, A4/A6, AWD Passat! I will buy a G35x, Murano, Highlander (HYBRID!!), AWD Passat with V6s and VDC over a 2.5GT Sedan because it is artificially constrained as a top of the line Sedan. Why should I have to go to an Outback Sedan (ugliest thing I have ever seen--IMHO) to get the features that should be in a high performance sedan (250hp+250 lbs torque). You can get the highly touted Mazda chassis in the Volvo V40 AWD and the S60 AWD with the higher end electronic wizardry should be reason enough for SOA to change their marketing position. Just one person's ramblings ;-)
Toyota's VSC wasn't cutting it so they'll actually employ a different system by 2005, the one joe mentioned.
-juice
Active AWD: Entry-level to mid level models
Auto VTD: High end and sport models
Manual VTD: Ultimate sport application
The only one AWD system that doesn't work well in their positioning is Continuous AWD since it spans all models except the STi. While it's a fool-proof system, it's purely reactive and doesn't have the technical appeal of the other types of AWD flavors. If Subaru were to just make VDC an option to all VTD models, that would just widen the gap even more between automatics and manuals. Subaru will eventually need to begin offering the STi Manual VTD to higher-end models to even things out.
But I agree that Subaru does need some kind of stability control option regardless of the transmission type in order to remain competitive. The issue with VDC is that it's an integrated stability control system with VTD. Unlike other stability control systems that simply clamp down the brakes on an individual wheel, VDC will first try to correct an over/understeer situation by diverting torque forward or rearward.
Ken
You are right that this kind of strategy has created a "dilemma" for SOA as they do need different price points (Active AWD to Manual AWD). Right now their issue is mostly about product positioning and less about competition--until next year. Then you have several "manu-matics"/"shiftmatic"/"autostick" FWD/RWD/AWD vehicles with all kinds of electronic wizardry. SOA then is facing a competitive environment more than a product positioning issue. It will be interesting to see how they respond. Hopefully they will remain competitive.
On a separate note can you imagine what happens if Toyota takes their AWD and Hybrid and applies it to the Camry, or Nissan applies AWD to the Altima, and Honda takes the Hybrid Accord and adds the Element's AWD to it? The manufacturers are applying Hybrid to the SUVs as they can charge more and also helps them with MPG. I doubt that the big 6 producers are benevolent and would allow a 100K unit market share go unchallenged.
For dealers they are a cash cow, demanding MSRP or even higher, with wait lists. That alone establishes a lot of good will with your dealer network.
-juice
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