VW brand experience - good or bad?

driftracer · June 2004

which is in the range of a couple of class-action suits I've been involved in.

http://kbb.com/kb/ki.dll/kw.kc.li?kbb.PA;;PA091;;&19002;+t&am- p;721&1992;Volkswagen;Golf%20GL%20Hatchback%202D

I used the 1.8 along with the 1.8T because I've had research and consultation experience with both engines.

Pardon the defensive tone, but it seems there's always someone here on Edmunds who jumps in and wants to split hairs just for the sake of argument, and I'm NOT interested.

Arguments are for people who can't debate, and I don't get involved in arguments.

newcar31 · June 2004

just for the sake of argument? Come on. I'm not one to stick up for VW, but is it really fair to bring up an engine that hasn't been used in over 10 years?

And the engine break-in synthetic oil topic....

Is it really a matter of opinion? Is it something that can be debated? No. It either messes up your engine up or it doesn't.

wetwillie · June 2004

"just for the sake of argument? Come on. I'm not one to stick up for VW, but is it really fair to bring up an engine that hasn't been used in over 10 years?"

Of course your right - indeed it is NOT fair. Toyota who, in the not too distant past, had a rep for blowing head gaskets and trannys has now become manufacturers of the most reliable vehicles ever built.

rickrover · June 2004

Plus Toyota had the sludge problem on their V6's a few years ago, it affected Lexus as well. No car maker is perfect.

I've had 2 VW's with 1.8t's and now have an 03 TDI Jetta wagon.

Niether 1.8t (2000 Passat, 02 GTI) ever used a drop of oil between 5k changes. The Passat had over 60k miles on it and never had one problem. The 02 GTI had the window regulator problem, but never had the coil pack problem - they were replaced proactively under warranty though. They don't come from the factory with synthetic oil, but I'd switch them over at 10k miles.

One thing that VW strongly recommends is to not change the oil on a new VW until 5k miles. I was used to getting it changed at 1k miles on a new car but the VW service guy talked me out of it. I've read the same on VW forums - you run the risk of the rings not seating properly if the oil is changed before 5k.

The 03 TDI comes from the factory with synthetic - I've had the Jetta wagon for a year and a half and over 20k miles without a single issue. Several of my friends own VW's and none of them are problematic - outside of the window regulator and coil pack issue - which was addressed a long time ago.

I just ordered my third 1.8t - an 05 Audi A4 Avant 6 speed with the Ultrasport package, it's replacing our 01 X5 - another amazingly dependable vehicle. My X5 has had exactly one warranty repair in 3 years, the backlit buttons on the steering wheel failed to light up - other than that it's had no problems either.

bpeebles · June 2004

It is good to hear some of the satisfied VW owners speak up. All to often, the dissatisfied folks tend to speak up more.

All vehicles have their issues (Honda had the automatic xmission in the Accord, Saturn has the oil-burning in ALL of their engines, Toyota had the sludge... etc)

I guess those of us that are happy with our VWs are too busy enjoying the 'long way home' in our wonderful German roadcars to spend much time here in Edmunds. ;-)

driftracer · June 2004

I have contact with a BUNCH of VW owners who are wrapped up in a class action suit and some of their vehicles are as old as 1990 models.

Fairness only works on the kindergarten recess playground - business is business.

newcar31 · June 2004

Class action suit for 1990 models? What's the problem?

driftracer · June 2004

Isn't that what we've been talking about?

Before you or anyone else asks more questions about the suit, I'll let you know that I won't discuss it or provide a link, not even in private e-mail, because that would conflict with Edmunds' rules on soliciting.

I can tell you that I'm the primary consultant on the suit and have testified - can't tell you how to get into it as a client.

newcar31 · June 2004

I just didn't think you could file class action suits because of a 14 year old car's oil consumption issues.

driftracer · June 2004

It's for two whole lines of cars, including Golfs and Jettas, and spans through 3 actual car generations.

Broaden your vision, man! Class Action suits aren't for specific incidents on specific products (at least not in product liability or warranty cases, usually).

newcar31 · June 2004

Oh, I know that the VW oil consumption issue isn't new, I guess I'm just not familiar with how a class action suit works.

I worked at oil change places through high school and college. We did fluid top offs, and we also checked the oil on every car before we changed it, so we could note if it was low on the work order. VWs with the old 1.8L and 2.0L were always low. I thought it was normal for VWs.

I remember when the 99 Jettas came out and we had people bringing them in for oil changes even though VW offered free ones. They were bringing them in because the VW dealers were backed up. I remember one guy with the 2.0L came back for a top off 1000 miles after an oil change after he checked his oil at the gas station nearby. He needed a quart, and I know it wasn't underfilled from the oil change because I did it. Interesting. The engine holds about 4 quarts and VW recommends 5000 mile oil changes. That engine will blow up if you don't check the oil between oil changes.

driftracer · June 2004

VW only offered free (warranty-like) oil changes at 5,000, 10,000 and 20,000 miles - if you want an oil change in the meantime (danged good idea), you bought it.

corvette · June 2004

How many miles on your X5?

bjbird2 · June 2004

If you're not familiar with class action suits, read "King of the Torts" by John Grisham. It's a real eye-opener into a world of greedy lawyers who win billion-dollar class-action settlements from corporations selling bad products, then rake fantastic fees off the top, with far smaller pay outs going to the people harmed by the products.

saugatak · June 2004

It's a real eye-opener into a world of greedy lawyers who win billion-dollar class-action settlements from corporations selling bad products, then rake fantastic fees off the top, with far smaller pay outs going to the people harmed by the products.

What's the difference between greedy lawyers and the business execs at VW who are cashing fat bonus checks and stock options for selling overpriced lemons?

There's an easy way for automakers to stop class actions. Make a good product or, if the product has a problem, fix it on your dime, not the customer's.

If automakers did those 2 things, driftracer would have to find another line of work.

newcar31 · June 2004

I know, and people were bringing the cars in at the same 5K interval and within the mileage for free oil changes. I even reminded the customers that they had free oil changes at VW and always got the same response. I guess people figured they could call the dealer and get in for an oil change in a couple days, not 3 weeks to a month.

driftracer · June 2004

the problem with these "free" maintenance visits is that VW restricted dealers from upselling, because the maintenance visit actually did quite a lot for the car (air filter, cabin filter, etc) AND it paid like any other warranty claim - cheap - the tech does an hour's work of work on your car and gets paid 3/10 of an hour -

Techs were screaming at their service advisors about losing money all day long, so many shops made these visits "less convenient" for the customer and they went to Jiffy Lube...

driftracer · June 2004

"There's an easy way for automakers to stop class actions. Make a good product or, if the product has a problem, fix it on your dime, not the customer's."

Ironically, the same action can stop lemon law suits and breach of warranty action - it's a Catch 22 - I wish ALL manufacturers would work harder to eliminate their problematic issues - on the other hand, I know they won't, for bean counter and legal reasons (hurdles), so I don't have to worry about being out of work for a LONG time...

bjbird2 · June 2004

"What's the difference between greedy lawyers and the business execs at VW who are cashing fat bonus checks and stock options for selling overpriced lemons?"

Probably not a big difference.
My point is that the people harmed by the products should get the larger benefit of these class action suits, not the lawyers. The compensation the lawyers rake off the top is way out of proportion to the amount of effort put in.
Now back to the cars...

jrosasmc · June 2004

You noted that there were some VW vehicles as old as 1990 models that were cited in the class-action suit that you mentioned earlier.

I'm just curious- were the Vanagon models ever affected or involved in any of this? I know that almost all VWs (including Cabriolet) used the 1.8-liter four in '90, but the Vanagons used the 2.1-liter horizontally-opposed engine. I think that motor was known for blowing head gaskets.

driftracer · June 2004

and they weren't sold in sufficient numbers to build a large enough complaint base for their head gaskets issues, I'm guessing.

cate · June 2004

Similar with my case. The garage near my home knows me very well now: they can write down my name, phone number, car year, model. I visit them every month since I bought my 97 Passat GLX VR6. Having owned this car for 9 months, I spent about $2000 on it, including some maintainance and repairs, such as clot in AC, thermostat, a belt under the hood, lock of trunk, misfire, etc. The CEL went on 3 times for different reasons.
VW dealer near my home also sucks. The earliest possible appointment I can get is always two weeks later, and this is because I didn't buy this car from him. And He wanted to charge me $650 for a CEL on last year, while another independent garage fixed the problem for me with $100.
The advantage of this car is, you feel comfortable driving it. My husband loves it, although its reliability is the pain.
Overall, my suggestion is, if you have another car as backup, and if you are DIY fan, go for it. Otherwise, keep away.

mellow_vw · June 2004

I own a 2001 Silver Jetta GLS. I've only had a few problems with my Jetta. The notorious window in door incident, faulty brake light, and my front bumper wasn't attached properly. I bought the car used though and the bumper was already detached so there's no blaming VW for that. I have notice many other Jettas with the same problem however. I think it just might be that the front bumper is low and people aren't careful when they park their cars. I'm nearing 48,000 miles on my car and I still love it. I really wish I would of gotten a 1.8T as opposed to my 2 liter though. Those new 1.8T GLI's are quite nice. Since I've bought my VW I've read about the oil consumption on countless boards. My Jetta does consume more oil that average but nothing to extraordinary. I usually add 1 quart of oil through 2 oil changes. Nothing too crazy.

As far as people saying the new model year Jettas won't experience the window problem I would say thats false. My friend got a platinum gray 2003 GLI VR6 and she had her window problem before mine.

newcar31 · June 2004

"My Jetta does consume more oil that average but nothing to extraordinary. I usually add 1 quart of oil through 2 oil changes. Nothing too crazy."

After working at a lube shop, I'd have to say that "average" means burning little to no oil. Most regular cars don't really burn any oil.

saugatak · June 2004

My point is that the people harmed by the products should get the larger benefit of these class action suits, not the lawyers. The compensation the lawyers rake off the top is way out of proportion to the amount of effort put in.

Can't disagree with you, but if the lawyers lose the class action, they foot the entire bill and don't get paid a dime, so they deserve some profit for the risk taken.

I'm more steamed about the compensation paid to top business execs who are getting ridiculous option packages even when they underperform.

At least the greedy lawyers have to win before they get paid.

Also, you can always opt out of a class action, pay your own lawyer by the hour (fair compensation), hire your own experts and do a lawsuit on your own.

saugatak · June 2004

I wish ALL manufacturers would work harder to eliminate their problematic issues - on the other hand, I know they won't, for bean counter and legal reasons (hurdles), so I don't have to worry about being out of work for a LONG time...

Not trying to imply that you belong in the unemployment line. I'm sure you're worth every penny paid to you and probably more.

From what you're telling me, it sounds like there's some tacit collusion between the class action lawyers and the auto industry.

The class action lawyers get mucho bucks, the auto industry gets some kind of legal cover from lemon law suits and can put an end to their legal liability.

Figures. You can't expect justice when you put auto industry execs and class action lawyers in the same room.

driftracer · June 2004

"The class action lawyers get mucho bucks, the auto industry gets some kind of legal cover from lemon law suits and can put an end to their legal liability."

The firm I work for has 3 current CA suits, but also over 5,000 current lemon law/breach of warranty suits - I don't think THEY are giving any slack to ANY manufacturer...

In fact, it's more like a predatory hunt....

granolaj · June 2004

I'm considering purchasing a Jetta wagon 2.0 GL or GLS (probably used 2002 or 2003). I've read about the various reliability problems with the Jetta. Are these problems isolated to the sedan, or do they occur in the wagons, too?

driftracer · June 2004

problems as sedans, but I haven't seen any lawsuits, more than likely because of the low wagon production numbers.

Stick with the 2.0 and you'll be fine, but it's still not a car I'd drive without an extended warranty.

granolaj · June 2004

Thanks, driftracer. If I buy a Jetta, I'll definitely get an extended warrany.

driftracer · June 2004

I LOVE VW products, having owned 8. Their interiors and fun to drive factor are great. They just aren't cars, with my experience in seeing hundreds of lemon law cases, that I'd own after a lease term or without a warranty...

driftracer · June 2004

prices are negotiable like everything else in a car deal!

fintail · June 2004

Guy I know at work with an 04 Jetta TDi was loving it...but now at 3 months and 3500 miles has a rattle in the dash, a rattle in the door, a sunroof that works now and then, and a drivers seat that isn't anchored properly. He's taking it in tomorrow to have it remedied. We'll see how it goes.

frogpond · June 2004

I purchaced a new 01' Jetta wagon and only had it for a year and a half because it was in the shop more times than I can count. To make a long story short I decided to give VW another chance and fought and eventually the dealership helped me out more than VW did and got me into a new Golf TDi. Well a year and a half later and while not as many or as frequent, problems still persist. While the Golf has some of the best handling, performance and standard features for its class and price there are little nagging problems that my wife's Toyota has never had. The seatbelts are problematic, the bolts in the driver door consistently come loose, bulbs burn out prematurely and the interior while looking rich seems to scratch, chip and scuff just by looking at it again something that does not happen in my wife's car. These small quality issues really bug me and the Golf will sadly be my last VW.

lewshel · July 2004

My wife just ordered a 2004 VW 4Motion GLX (See prices paid thread). While my 2003TDI with 37,000 miles is not perfect it still would be my first choice as a car. I hope to keep it in the family to the the 200,000 mile mark. To date we have received good sales and service at Patrick VW.

boaz47 · July 2004

MSN has a car site where you can compare cars and reliability ratings.

http://autos.msn.com/research/compare/compare.aspx?src=URES

Just click on reliability ratings and punch in the car you are interested in. To some it will be a surprise.

In my case reliability ratings wouldn't be nearly as important if sales and service were on the top of the list for VW. But traditionally studies haven't shown Parts and service to be one of VWs strong suites.

bjbird2 · August 2004

Interesting, check the reliability of the Honda Accord, Nissan Maxima, and Toyota Camry on that site. I thought they were supposed to be more reliable than the Passat.

driftracer · August 2004

I looked up a Ford mustang, just to stay out of the VW vs Honda fray, and found some weird input on engine reliability. The poll showed engine management system problems, but it doesn't say WHO reported these issues, or how many people were polled, showing how many cars were in the polling group.

That site leads you to believe that they ALL have engine management problems, which is ridiculous.

No offense to any consumer, but getting my reliability ratings from someone without experience related to the automotive field is just about as reliable as a group of people rating cologne or perfume - to some, a certain fragrance is great, to others, it stinks, but it's the same smell, no matter what.

Take tires, for instance - the Tire Rack has a great rating system if you know nothing about tires and trust total strangers. I'm not dogging their system, because I buy tires from them all the time - I just don't read the ratings.

I just bought a set of tires for my son's car, and it was a size and speed rating I hadn't bought before. I looked at the consumer ratings - right next to an entry from one guy saying "these things are great, they blow away the Micheleins they replaced", the next guy said "these totally suck".

Neither account is subjective, neither has any meat to it, since there were no real test stats, just an opinion from someone who took 15 seconds to blather their thoughts about something they really know nothing about.

turbotorque · August 2004

I leased my first Passat back in 1998 (1999 model). There were minor annoying issues pertaining to the windows, and some electrical stuff. Nothing that ever left me stranded. It DID burn oil though. This did not bother me much because it was a leased vehicle.

In 2001, I traded that Passat in for a 2002 model. I had the usual ignition coil problem, I had a battery that died because the electrical components to it somehow shorted out, and a couple of the minor issues. Still nothing, that ever left me stranded.

I live and work near several VW dealers, so getting the minor issues addressed has never been much more than small hassle. I've usually been able to get them taken care of at the regular service intervals.

All and all, the extra hassle has been worth it, considering the alternatives. For one thing, I am fairly tall, and VW is among the few automakers who produce sedans that tall people can be comfortable in - especially when it comes to having the top of the sun visor ABOVE my eyes.

My lease expires in a couple of months, and I will most likely either buy the car at the end of the lease or I will buy/lease another VW.

corvette · August 2004

With respect to Tire Rack, I read the reviews, but don't place too much faith in them. The numerical survey results are useful for comparing similar tires, but by no means are they absolutes.

gorgon_67 · August 2004

In October 2002 I purchased a new 2003 Subaru WRX to replace my 2000 GTI, which I purchased new in 2000. The GTI had constant, and I mean constant, problems -- power window "retainer clip" broke three times leaving window inoperative, glove box hinge broke twice (cheap plastic), virtually every exterior bulb burned out within 24 months, clutch went out at 40K (a thousand bucks to replace), an engine valve blew, the CD changer went on the blink and on and on and on... My Subaru (now at 41K), on the other hand, has been reliable, with only an occasional rattle and one broken part (a minor interior trim piece). I therefore recommend that anyone considering the purchase of a used GTI strongly consider the WRX (or RSX or Civic hatchback or Sentra Spec-V) before committing to such an unreliable vehicle. I hope that someone can learn from my experience. Bottom line is that unless VW has made some comprehensive quality improvements in the last few years, this is a brand to be avoided...

jettaluva · August 2004

I own a 2002 jetta 1.8t. I love the power, the ability to pass idiots on the road and let me tell you I live in NY, there are lots of them:)I love the overall look of the car. Thats what made me buy it. There are some things that i wish i had known though. Depreciation for one. My car is worth about 1/2 of what i paid for it in ONLY 2 yrs. Yikes!!! Not that i have plans of getting rid of it, but that is pretty bad. Not crazy about the interior of the car some surfaces scratch easily and the coating on the door handle on the inside of the drivers door
has peeled away. I too had the window problem fixed and the coil issue taken care of. I have read some posts on a problem with oil consumption but have not had that problem with mine. In fact I let it go a little too long last oil change but when i checked it was still full. Seriously. Just wanted to share with you how much I love my car. She's got balls baby!!!!!

nfleck · August 2004

i recently bought an 04 Passat GLX, and for the most part i have enjoyed the car. I have had one problem with it, however. Evidently there is a computer that regulates the transmission, and it has malfunctioned twice. When I slow down to stop, the transmission jerks. I would like to know if anyone else is having this problem. Other than that I love the car. The interior is nice. The controls are easy to use and conveniently placed. I would recommend this car to everyone.

ekim1 · August 2004

You're not kidding. I came to this site to get some information on VW's and now it looks like we've either got some third graders writing in or all the stats on the school systems are correct. I tried to ignore it and wade through the grammar and spelling (or lack of) but I feel like I'm reading hieroglyphics.

Stick to the topic please. Batteries and brakes don't make a car. Oh, and by all means - check your grammar and spelling. The whole idea of someone writing in, is to communicate; so use the language as it was meant to be for our benefit.

boaz47 · August 2004

to the same issues for just about any car. I have indicated my problems with VW are with sales and service. Not that the cars I have had from VW didn't have some slight dependability issues but they would have been easier to over look if they were dealt with in a professional manner. The surveys that so many discount indicate that many people feel as I do and so VW most often receives a failing grade. Those that disregard surveys still have to read the reports by VW executives themselves that indicate they are fully aware of quality issues and know that sales and service are problems as well. These same executives have indicated that VW plans on addressing these issues and indeed seem to be attempting to do just that.

To those that now have a VW they have to weigh the fun factor against the problem factor and decide if one out weighs the other. For most people the fun factor just doesn't cover the problems. At least not at this date. That is more than likely why Jetta is down by 10,000 units over this time last year. Passat is down closer to 5,000 units.

http://www.autosite.com/editoria/asmr/svsedan.asp

dfmarcus · August 2004

"That is more than likely why Jetta is down by 10,000 units over this time last year. Passat is down closer to 5,000 units"

Auto sales are down in 2004 - it's not just VW. Accord, Corolla, Maxima, Taurus, Focus, etc.

alfox · August 2004

mixed views. Parallels humanity in general I guess.

I've had no real problems at all with my 2k Passat GLS V6 wagon. But that's just my annecdotal evidence. Fun cars to drive for sure - been a good ride for the buck.

anonymousposts · August 2004

"Oh, and by all means - check your grammar and spelling. The whole idea of someone writing in, is to communicate; so use the language as it was meant to be for our benefit."

A lot of people that post here do not have time to go back and make sure their posts are error free. Even with a few grammatical and spelling errors most people will get the point. So my suggestion is to get off of your soapbox and enjoy Edmunds, spelling mistakes and all.

boaz47 · August 2004

Yes, but 10,000 units to VW means a lot more than 10,000 units would to Ford, Honda and Toyota. I fully realize that we have more or less agreed not to use any dependability studies like JD Powers to make our point so sales and reputation are about all we have left. According to VW themselves Dependability and reliability are issues they know they must deal with.

Now from what I have read the younger driver realizes VW has these issues but believes the Fun factor far outweighs any such issues. I always thought my VWs were fun. They were just a pain to keep running.

lewshel · August 2004

If you check the VW Vortex website there is a section on this issue. We had the same problem and VW has a transmission CPU re--program (flash) to solve this. It took a couple of hours at the dealer and it seems to have worked.

VW brand experience - good or bad?

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