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Comments
Cliffy come on now. While I have defended the OHC design for better port design capability and less friction over a push rod design. A DOHC has no advantage until much higher RPM, unless you can educate me on why a 5500 RPM truck motor needs DOHC's I'll stick with SOHC for simplicity thank you.
Barlitz,
Is it over for the Pats this year? I would like them to beat the Indianapolis this weekend. So how do you like that new truck of yours so far?
Anyways, enough of that, I'd say that the Toyota would probably come in a bit ahead of the ranger (maybe a grand or so) if they were in the same condition. But, take into consideration the lower purchase price of the ranger, lower financing available for the ranger, lower insurance rates for the ranger, lower cost of parts for the ranger, and better dealer accessibility for the ranger. Then, I'd put the ranger ahead by a pretty fair margin as far as the initial purchaser. I'll tell you what, though, with any used 4x4 you're going to be paying quite a hefty markup. It's that whole thing with supply vs. demand again. And, I wouldn't touch any vehicle, foreign or domestic, with 100K miles or more unless it was a cash purchase for a beater.
low and too high in the rpm range for hauling,towing, etc..."
I guess its time for me to dispell another myth.
There is a reason why compact and full size pickups were always built with freak torque.
The older truck engines just could not take ANY kind of high revving or tach jumping without over heating or prematurely damaging the engine. Hence all the coolers ect on high torque trucks.
These trucks had problems when they HAD to get high RPMS going up steep grades with heavy loads or towing. Overheating and engine damage was a BIG problem.
Now that technology has advanced, truck makers are designing engines that can finally BREATHE, and take the brunt of steep grades, maintaining speed and power.
Toyota was the first to offer this sort of design in their 190 hp v6.
Ford soon followed suit with the new f150.
Theres a reason why truck engines were built the way they were.
But now, people still cling to this idea of the old engines. Granted, torque IS good, but Ill take a little kick from the torque if I can get an engine that kicks a@@ all the way through the power band, without overheating and causing problems while trying to maintain speeds while towing or hauling. IMHO, these new truck engines are fantastic.
Isnt the ranger coming out with a multi valve job next year?
Toyota and Ford are definatrly LIGHT years ahead of Dodge and Chevy in engine design. There is no question about it. That v8 in the Tundra is a masterpiece.
MAgs are still crowing over it.
So yes , torque is good, but BALANCE is even better.
A 3.0 V6 4X4 extended cab with over 120K miles will be worth between $2500 to $3500 depending on how it was kept. I don't care what the book says, that is reality.
A 4 cylinder Toyota 4x4 extended cab with AC and 120K miles will go for $5000 to $7000 depending on condition.
These are what is called ACV or actual cash value as opposed to trade allowance. Now I am aware that the Toyota was more expensive to begin with but they do not depreciate at the same rate. In 8 year and that many miles, you would only expect a $500 difference if they went at the same rate.
The point here is that Toyota holds up better in general. Your uncle may have had one that was perfect and brought lots of money at trade in but that is the exception and any honest car guy will tell you that.
Also we would always stretch on a former customers trade being the same make just because. We would just OA it on the cap sheet.
And you made my point on the OA.
for more then Fords. Now it is true that a
DOHC in a truck is not as practicle for hauling
as a sohc or ohc but you got to love the gas
mileage of the dohc. You see for normal everyday
driving to and from work you don't have to use
the upper rpm's, but if you really want to rip
it you now the power is going to be there. That
is why those engines last so long and that is
the beauty of a DOHC.
"There is a reason why compact and full size
pickups were always built with freak torque.
The older truck engines just could not take ANY
kind of high revving or tach jumping without over
heating or prematurely damaging the engine."
Uh... no. Trucks are built with torquey engines to haul, tow, and perform other stressful duties. If you have an engine with "freak torque," as you call it, it can perform these tasks with ease. If you don't, it will struggle and be constantly revving to its redline. This causes excessive wear to ANY engine.
I think you might be upset and grasping at straws because toyota put a car-based engine in the tacoma and "patched" it with gearing. In your defense, however, the 2.5 4cylinder and 3.0 V6 offered in Rangers are also "car" engines.
Yes, Ford is supposed to put the SOHC 4.0L V6 in the Ranger possibly next year. It has 210hp and 240ft/lbs of torque (at 250 higher rpm). It uses basically the same internal mechanicals as the OHC 4.0L. So, there are some gains in terms of hp and torque. My father has the "cammer" engine in his Explorer. It feels the same as my 4.0L (a bit smoother though) in the lower rpm range, but it charges to the red line in the upper rpm range much better. This might be much better for hauling [non-permissible content removed] but only marginally better for hauling other stuff like lumber, trailers, and rocks.
However, I am more interested in the development of Ford's supercharged 4.0L in the works to be used in the Adrenalin. It's rumored to be 280hp and 300+ft/lbs of torque. Unfortunately, it will probably only be offered in 2wd trucks as is the Lightning. Oh well, I'll just keep saving for my Instacharger kit from BBK.
Yes, I would consider the "balance" on the 4.0L to be quite good. It produces torque in the very low revs and has a broad, flat power band. With just the few more hundred dollars of mods I'm adding (cat-back & Superchip, already have induction system), it should be around 190-200hp and 270-280ft/lbs or torque. The 4.0L reacts very well to mods and can easily reach 300hp and 350ft/lbs of torque with only bolt-ons. Check out www.rangerpowersports.com if you're curious.
Also, you will almost always receive more for a trade at a dealership of the same make. I have experienced this first hand each and every time with every make I've owned (Ford, Pontiac, Olds, Chevy, and Toyota). I'm not brand loyal. I go with whoever puts out the product with the best value.
Hindsite, The truck is working out great I'm thinking of doing some minor mods for offroading and a little more speed,I gave up on the Pats when they were 4 and 0 it seems every year they start out good and then fall apart, We miss the discipline of coach Parcells.How was Plymouth? I've lived in Boston my whole life never seen Plymouth rock,bunker hill monument or even walked the freedom trail,geeez there's a lot of history in Boston,maybe I should spend less time on this site and enjoy the city around me, my blood pressure would probably go down to.
Good Luck
I like to see the Pats make it and can't stomach the fact that Indianapolis or the Miami will probably make it in the AFC East. Although the Bills are still in the hunt.
Nice truck you have. So what kind of mods are you gearing up for?Anyway I saw an Excursion the other night at Home Depot and have to say it was a beauty. He had no problem loading those 4' x 8'plywood.
of torque with only bolt-ons. Check out
www.rangerpowersports.com if you're curious."
Thats nice. I got my Tacoma dealer equipped with the TRD supercharger. IT's is warrantied, right along with my engine.
Im pulling aroun 260-70 HP, with 290 torque.
The difference is, that this is an OPTION, and dealer installed, not some hackneyed job.
I can get 0-60 around 7 seconds, sometimes less.
Basically, this thing smokes. If you like a litle speed, I say go for the charger. Although alot of companies actual results are lacking. Its nice to know TRD is excellent quality, and you get the numbers they throw at you.
John
Well, sounds good to me if you are keeping the truck. Rancho shocks I have heard are great shocks. I know of a few guys that have replaced the shocks in their Tacoma TRD with Ranchos. Is there a topic here for shocks and if not maybe you can create one.
ty
Vince, a site devoted to splash Rangers. You might like it.
General comment on 100K+ vehicles, slightly off subject but here goes:
Cliffy,
Since you imply you are in the business, talk to me about the VALUE of the early 80's Toyota trucks in particular the diesel versions. Was that high quality from Toyota. Before you answer, I owned an 81 Longbed diesel and it is one of the main reasons I will not buy Toyotas new. This is after unsatisfactory dealings with up to zone managers in both Colo and Calif.
As stated, I have owned many toyotas and yes they are high quality vehicles BUT...
they do break. Currently working on both of my 87 Celicas that are eating tires, front end checks out fine.
In regard to the Tacoma or Ranger, beatings taken off-road or even in work situations will eventually take its toll on the suspension etc. Both have CV joints in the front drive train and they will eventually require replacement. Also that design is great for hwy, good for off-road but cannot compete with non-IFS vehicles that can articulate MUCH better than either a Ranger or Tacoma.
Plus's for Ranger, in MY humble opinion and in no special order:
- Anti-lock brakes standard.
- XLT has many amenities only found on an optioned up Tacoma.
- Reasonable price(you can get a nicely equipped 4X4 for around $19K) and reliability and good quality.
- Crash test results (Beat to death here, no pun inteneded)
- Comfortable ride, handles great on the road, perhaps a bit hoppy off road w/standard shocks.
- Great off-road performance, at least seems to work well for me.
- Personal but I liked the wheel style.
- Great financing at the time of purchase, 2.9%.
- Lower insurance cost and can do basically all a Tacoma would do.
- true switch on the fly 4X4.
Thing I do not like:
- directional signal stalk, crappy placement.
- buttons on radio too small for my hamfists.
- performance. Gets it around ok but should have a snapper option engine.
- Stock shocks and tires are less than desirable.
- did not like small size of slider rear window opening so did not get it.
- would be NICE to redesign lower shock mounts and bring them up like the Tacoma. Have NOT hit mine yet, or if I did no damage but could happen.
- would like a low fuel low windshield washer fluid light.
- would like a lighted glovebox.
Most of my complaints are nits.
Just my 2 cents.
But where is that torque at? Probably high in the rpm range. You'll have to rev your engine to pull those numbers, so you'll be causing excessive and premature wear. I'm sure it's an improvement over the stock engine though.
As for the supercharger kits being a "hackneyed job", the BBK Instacharger was developed by Ford for use on the 4.0 OHV in the Explorer. Due probably to cost savings, they used/developed the SOHC 4.0 in its place. They sold the supercharger to BBK.
Personally, I'm not worried about certain things not coming as an option from the factory. I have the knowhow to modify my vehicle to make it better suit my needs. As for the warranty, I'll wait until after it expires to make any "major" mods like a supercharger or ignition system. Most problems, if any, drop out in the first few thousand miles. None yet on my '98 ranger (16K) or my '99 contour svt (10K). It might be nice for some items to be a factory option, but they'll also increase the price of every trim level. Costs, such as R&D, manufacturing, and overhead, will be allocated across the board and increase the price.
"I can get 0-60 around 7 seconds, sometimes less. Basically, this thing smokes."
And you bought it to use as a truck? Who are you trying to kid here?
"Im pulling aroun 260-70 HP, with 290 torque."
But where is that torque at? Probably high in the
rpm range. You'll have to rev your engine to pull
those numbers, so you'll be causing excessive and
premature wear. "
Um..that may have been the case with the old truck engine designs, but not the new multivalve engines that are able to breathe and perform well at those RPM's.
"I'm sure it's an improvement overthe stock engine though."
well, the stock Tacoma six is the best v6 in all of the compact trucks, so for most people it is fine. But I wanted a little "spice" in my driving. Plus its worth every penny when I tag mustangs and Ranger drivers who try to race "them thar' rice burner" at the stop light! muhahahaha!
YOu should see the look on their face when I slow down to let tham pass after I destroy them! Thats right buddy...no "rice burner" here!! muhahahahahaha.
"As for the supercharger kits being a "hackneyed
job", the BBK Instacharger was developed by Ford
for use on the 4.0 OHV in the Explorer. Due
probably to cost savings, they used/developed the
SOHC 4.0 in its place. They sold the superchargerto BBK.
Personally, I'm not worried about certain things
not coming as an option from the factory. I have
the knowhow to modify my vehicle to make it better
suit my needs."
Its too bad the Ford dealers wont stand behind that though.
" As for the warranty, I'll wait
until after it expires to make any "major" mods
like a supercharger or ignition system. "
Thats stinks. Too bad. Maybe if Ford were a more performance oriented company.....but its hard to be when you target the ma and pa "value" crowd.
" Most
problems, if any, drop out in the first few
thousand miles. None yet on my '98 ranger (16K) or
my '99 contour svt (10K). It might be nice for
some items to be a factory option, but they'll also
increase the price of every trim level. "
Yep. ya get what you pay for.
"Costs,
such as R&D, manufacturing, and overhead, will be
allocated across the board and increase the price.
"I can get 0-60 around 7 seconds, sometimes less. Basically, this thing smokes."
And you bought it to use as a truck? Who are youtrying to kid here? "
Oh, I use it to haul my walleye/muskie boat, and for offroading in the swamp/forest/hill country.
It gets used like a truck. It gets taken into ridiculous places for trout fishing .
It barely gets washed, and loves the mud.
Once again a race truck, Heck wanna race a Lightning or R/T?
Oh wait! This one is REALLY funny!
"It's worth every penny when I tag mustangs. You should see the look on their face when I slow down to let them pass after I destroy them!"
Maybe the women driving the V6, auto Mustangs (no offense ladies, just demographics)! I'll bet that look on their face means: What the hell is that idiot doing? Did he think that we were racing? (laughing)
I doubt that a truck that can barely muster a 7 second 0-60 could come anywhere close to beating any V8 powered Mustang. The only case I could think of would be an incompetant driver or maybe stalling the car on take-off. Hell, even my 4dr family sedan would beat your little truck, and it's got a naturally aspirated (no supercharger here), small displacement (2.5L) V6 (not the V8 power of a muscle car). Please, it is really starting to get deep in here, and you're shoveling like a madman.
But wait, another funny tidbit:
"Its too bad the Ford dealers wont stand behind
that though." about the BBK Instacharger.
Well, duh. BBK does that. Why would Ford warranty the product of another company?
And yet another one:
"Thats stinks. Too bad. Maybe if Ford were a more performance oriented company.....but its hard to be when you target the ma and pa "value" crowd."
Have you ever heard of Ford Motorsports, Roush Racing, Saleen, Steeda, SVT (Special Vehicle Team, Ford's in-house tuner), or many of the other Ford tuners. Ford produces one of the fastest production cars sold in the US, the S351 Saleen Mustang (55 large). Ford's standard warranty comes right along with it. Have you ever heard of the Lightning, the fastest production truck ever built? Have you ever seen an SVO Mustang, a Ford Taurus SHO, an SVT Contour, a Thunderbird SuperCoupe? Have you ever heard of the Ford GT40? What about the Mustang Cobra? What about the Mustang Cobra R (Corvette and Viper killer) of which 300 units will be built this year (real big deal, last run was in '93)? And, I could go on...
Ford is not performance oriented, huh? Hey everybody, watch out for that smokescreen!
Oh, this one is good too:
"Yep. ya get what you pay for."
But, you are actually right on this one. Last three vehicles, '95 ranger, '98 ranger, and '99 SVT Contour. A total of 60K miles between them. One problem: windshield wiper switch in the '95. Yes, I did get exactly what I paid for, three reliable well-performing vehicles. If you're wondering, I traded in the '95 for the '98 because it was time that I needed a 4x4. I just bought a couple of snowmobiles, and towing in the snow was a bit difficult with the 2wd non-LSD '95. Got the '98 4x4, problem solved.
Tell us this. Do you read car/truck mags, go out and drive vehicles, go to the track, go to a parts store, talk with your friends about automobiles, fix up your truck (IF, you even actually own one), etc... OR do you just keep reading that 2-year-old article over and over again all the while posting it (and a bunch of other nonsensical garbage) to this board all day long?
How many log in names do you have Vince?
"? Higher revs = higher temps, higher stress =excessive wear = engine breakdown"
Your not listening Cthompson. The older truck engines were not designed for this, so THEY had the wear and tear problems. The newer engines CAN and DO excell under these conditions, with minimum wear and tear.
And yes Cthompson, Ford is a "ma and pa" car/truck maker. Thats their motto, really.
As for tagging the Mustang...so what. Sometimes it is fun. I've raced all sorts of cars and pickups. Im usually not the one to start them.
Needless to say, I have some POWER under the hood.
Its fun to let it loose once in awhile.
You said you would only come back to defend the Ranger. What does babbling about Spoog not owning his truck have to do with this?
Let's not "ShowBoat" the Cobra two much, it was recalled in 99 because it could "Produce" the HP it said it could. Read the edmunds write up...
CP The XLT comes with so much stuff, because it is an option package/trim level. A decently priced option package/trim level, but we need to keep that in mind...
My $.02
-wsn
P.S. I am not claiming this to be a fact but I have heard a first hand story about a Tacoma with a TRD Supercharger taking v8 Mustangs also.
As to your problem with the diesel, I have no idea what the problem could have been. I am sure however that the 22R engine used until '95 was the most reliable engine ever stuffed into a commercial vehicle. I can also say with authority that the 2.7 almost never shows up in the service department for anything but an oil change.
The 3.4 had some head gasket problems which was a materials issue (unlike the problem on the old 3.0). We don't see the 3.4 in any more either now.
Also, can I infer from your comments about the Ranger that you believe the Tacoma is not a true "switch on the fly" 4WD? If that is what you meant to imply, it would be pure absurdity. All Tacos equipped with 4 wheel demand are true shift on the fly and most are equipped that way. The only difference is that you are not relying on switches and vacuum lines to engage the 4WD. You are physically moving the gears in the transfer case. Ask me which I think will last longer! You can do it up to 50 mph in and out.
Cthompson--Its been said but the DOHC engine is supposed to run at higher RPMs. Welcome to the 20th (?) century.
WSN, you were not in the first Tacoma vs RAnger room. I did list numbered posts that spoog had made along with references to asking why he never said anything in his first post about his TRD?? and its SC.
And I guess spoog has ever heard of any of the performance Fords mentioned above or doesn't want to hear about it that is.
supposed to run at higher RPMs. Welcome to the
20th (?) century."
What exactly are you talking about? As for DOHC engines, I've had 2 in the past 3 years. The first was an Olds Cutlass Supreme International with the H.O. Quad-4. It was a wonderfully performing, yet fatally flawed, engine. I blew the head gasket and cracked the head, which happened quite often to that particular engine. A buddy of mine races an Olds Achieva with a tuned version of the H.O. Quad-4. He gets 240hp out of a 2.3L engine w/o mods, only balancing and blueprinting. My second, and current, DOHC engine is in my '99 Ford SVT Contour. It has been voted to the top 10 engine list almost since its introduction in '95. Currently, it placed 2nd. (I'll post the link when I find it.)
Welcome to the 20th Century? I'll assure you that I am more technologically savvy than you can imagine. To put a DOHC engine in a truck is a waste of money for the manufacturer. A SOHC engine will reap the benefits of an OHC design. Who needs to rev a truck up to 6 grand on the tach. These upper reaches are the only areas of improvement for the DOHC over the SOHC. Toyota put the Camry engine in the Tacoma and then "patched" it with gearing. Just a little info to help you stride into the 21st Century...
So, tell me this. While engine will have the most adverse affects on it in terms of wear and longevity:
(1) An engine running at or slightly above idle
(2) An engine running at or slightly below redline
Well, which is it? Please answer this question. You've ignored 90% of the questions I've posted to you. The other 10% that you answered, you completely misunderstood the question.
People would dyno their cars, and get rear wheel horsepower of about 250. Then, they'd complain that their car wasn't putting out the rated 315hp. But, they didn't take drivetrain loss into account (about 20%). So, a car dyno'd at 250hp was putting out 315hp at the flywheel.
But, some cars were dyno'd around 220hp. Ford has recalled all Cobras for exhaust and ignition/computer mods, so the guys with "good" Cobras in the first place will be getting free ponies courtesy of Ford.
Personally, I am upset about Ford's slow reaction to the situation. But, they certainly have never been known as a "people corporation," and they're at least going to remedy their mistake.
To all the Toyota people. While your engines are high tech marvels with known performance and reliability they are engines of convenience because of their shared components with the car lines. Just like the Ford tritons. There is no advantage for DOHC's for a truck motor that doesn't spin to 7000 rpm.
You kill me! You spout things out without ever looking to see if you have anything to backup your "Spouts" When i click on the "Original" Ranger vs Tacoma link my name shows up more than once, and to "backup" my statements look at post # 647...LOL!
Cobra's
The Cobra problem was a little bit more envolved that people's ignorance about fly wheel HP and rear wheel HP. Reg mustangs and Camaro's where stomping the Cobra, because it was not making it's "Claimed" HP. I was good of Ford to bring them back in, but it's odd that the problem was not noticed on a "limited production" car...
my $.02
-wsn
CP I believe you have said you have a K&N airfilter. Do you have the drop in or the filter-charger?
I have owned on Toy truck and 6 Toy cars. No 22R but did have a 20R engine and it was running great at 130K, so will not dispute you on that. The diesel, however, first ate injectors evey 1,000 mi foir the first 5K of life and had 2 injector pumps in that period. Then the engine gradually ate itself up until at 35K it became undrivable. All the time Toyota zone managers and dealers kept telling me it was my fault, not the vehicles.
"Oh what a feeling?"
So yes I got soured real easy with Toyota for their lack of customer support. While not a Tacoma it was a Toyota truck that at the time was having the reputation of high quality. Bull, the engine was a dog and highly unreliable. It was only produced for I think 3 years and found its way into the Corolla.
"Also, can I infer from your comments about the
Ranger that you believe the Tacoma is not a true
"switch on the fly" 4WD?"
No, did not mean that as I know it is. Is it a chain driven transfer case? Just curious how you move moving gears without a clutch to stop movement before engagement.
Other plus items in my opinion for Ranger:
- Anti-theft system, passive, standard on 4.0's. Engine will not start without the coded key.
- Full trailer wire connections.
- extended cab frame rails as of 98 model reported to be 400% stronger than the previous design.
- 8.8 inch differential gears, reported to be 35% stronger than the 7.5 inch design.
Pleased with the performance so far but the KKM is exclusive to Ford.
guess anyone who owns a Ford 4.0 SOHC. Since
that's where it redlines. FYI."
FYI: The SOHC 4.0L V6 is not yet available in the ranger, only in the Explorer due to initial production capacity.
And, with peak torque of 240ft/lbs at 3250rpm, why would someone need to run it up to 6 grand on the tach?
mviglianco1:
The performance gains from a drop-in K&N are negligible. Its biggest plus is longevity. The filter-charger should realistically net a gain of up to 10-12hp and 10-12ft/lbs of torque. But, other bottlenecks in your intake system will limit the performance improvements of the FIPK. So, maybe a new TB, MAF, airbox, and intake pipe would be in order.
http://www.wardsauto.com/best10/engine_frame.htm
Cpousnr, I'm a little embarrassed about not knowing how it works either but every Ford I've driven in the last 20 years once the hubs were locked or if they had auto locking hubs could be shifted from the floor mounted transfer case handle into 4wd high and back out again. Now lo range you had to be completely stopped and in nuetral(sp?). I know GM and Dodge shared a lot of those transfer cases so it's not that novel of a feature.
http://www.wardsauto.com/best10/engine_frame.htm
I don't know the exact mechanicals, but I'd bet failure was due to lack of use. It is a good idea for any 4x4 system to be engaged monthly for 5-10 miles. It will keep everything lubed and in working order. When you do it, just avoid dry pavement. Wait until it rains or go on some gravel and flip on the 4x4.
I haven't had any of these probs on my '98 ranger 4x4, but I see them to be most common in '94 and older trucks. My guess is that it would be due to lack of maintenance, which is probably the cause of well over half of mechanical failures (just my opinion).
Actually, this does point out the need to read your owners manual. Toyota advises engaging the 4WD system once a month as well but there are no vacuum hoses to rot on a Tacoma.