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Instead of letting the dealer treat you unfairly, you lowered the boom and got a lawyer and sued him. I bet now he takes notice!
Please let us know how it turns out.
Is it illegal to sell a vehicle with a broken odometer (without disclosing that it is a TMU, True Mileage Unknown), or is it also illegal to drive one? The latter definition implies that if one's odometer breaks, one is under the obligation to immediately fix it, whether he or she ever sells the vehicle or not.
Just curious.
tidester, host
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If you suspect that the odometer has been rolled back on a vehicle offered for sale, contact your local law enforcement agency or the DMV. If you suspect odometer fraud has occurred with a vehicle you have already purchased, the DMV can assist you in obtaining a record of all previous Florida owners and odometer statements from the dealers involved. If your suspicions are confirmed, you will need to retain an attorney in order to file suit against the violator. Due to the importance of the odometer reading in determining the value and condition of a vehicle, state and federal laws have been enacted making it illegal to tamper with a vehicle's odometer. Under the law it is illegal to:
Disconnect an odometer.
Turn back an odometer.
Drive with a disconnected or non-functional odometer.
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2006 Florida Statutes:
319.35 Unlawful acts in connection with motor vehicle odometer readings; penalties.--
(1)(a) It is unlawful for any person knowingly to tamper with, adjust, alter, set back, disconnect, or fail to connect an odometer of a motor vehicle, or to cause any of the foregoing to occur to an odometer of a motor vehicle, so as to reflect a lower mileage than the motor vehicle has actually been driven, or to supply any written odometer statement knowing such statement to be false or based on mileage figures reflected by an odometer that has been tampered with or altered, except as hereinafter provided. It is unlawful for any person to knowingly bring into this state a motor vehicle which has an odometer that has been illegally altered.
(b) It is unlawful for any person to knowingly provide false information on the odometer readings required pursuant to ss. 319.23(3) and 320.02(2)(b).
(c) It is unlawful for any person to knowingly possess, sell, or offer for sale, conceal, or dispose of in this state a motor vehicle with an odometer that has been tampered with so as to reflect a lower mileage than the motor vehicle has actually been driven, except as provided in paragraph (2)(a) and subsection (3).
(2)(a) This section does not prevent the service, repair, or replacement of an odometer if the mileage indicated thereon remains the same as before the service, repair, or replacement. If the odometer is incapable of registering the same mileage as before such service, repair, or replacement, the odometer must be adjusted to read zero and a notice in writing must be attached to the door frame of the vehicle by the owner or his or her agent specifying the mileage prior to repair or replacement of the odometer and the date on which it was repaired or replaced.
(b) A person may not fail to adjust an odometer or affix a notice regarding such adjustment as required by paragraph (a).
(c) A person may not, with intent to defraud, remove or alter any notice affixed to a motor vehicle under paragraph (a).
(3) Any motor vehicle with an odometer that has been tampered with so as to reflect a lower mileage than the motor vehicle has actually been driven may not be knowingly operated on the streets and highways of the state in such condition unless the certificate of title and registration certificate of the vehicle have been conspicuously stamped so as to indicate the displayed mileage is inaccurate and written notice has been placed on the vehicle as described in paragraph (2)(a).
(4) If any person, with intent to defraud, possesses, sells, or offers to sell any motor vehicle with an odometer that has been illegally adjusted, altered, set back, or tampered with so as to reflect a lower mileage than the vehicle has actually been driven, such motor vehicle is contraband and is subject to seizure and forfeiture by a law enforcement agency or the department pursuant to ss. 932.701-932.704.
(5) Any person who intentionally violates the provisions of this section is guilty of a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
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Hope that helps
Paragraph (c) states: "merely driving with a non-functional odometer is not, in and of itself, an offense."
Is it possible to drive a vehicle with a nonfunctional odometer and not know it?
tidester, host
I crawled under the car and found where the speedometer cable went into the transmission and unscrewed it. She was very happy.
Now I realize I was breaking the law. How about that!
I'd bet she's divorced by now.
tidester, host
Kind of like Suzanne Somers in "American Graffiti".
tidester, host
- as they have to argue the mileage descrepency amounts, not you, since THEY sold you a vehicle with a defective odometer.(note I am making all of these numbers up in my head as I type) then your damages would be $3000 plus whatever you paid payments made to the dealership, down payment and gas mileage as you went back and forth asking them to fix it... so take that number and multiply it by 3 and add in any court and legal costs.... sometimes you have to make a stand, yes it can be time consuming, but if we all keep filing suits against these types of automobile dealers, just maybe after they pay enough, they will change the way they do business. I personally feel if we do nothing... then they will simply continue on with the next person that comes on their lot and then we'll see that other person posting here as well.
Yes. Nobody really knows the exact mileage of the car now.
Your paperwork from the dealerhsip should include a form called a "mileage statement".....check to see what is on that form. If things get into a legal situation that form will be very important...also, run a Carfax on the car and see what the mileage history shows. This could be helpful also.
Just curious, was this purchase from a new car dealership?
I certainly would contact an attorney or the attorney general. The burden falls back onto the seller to disclose any discrepencies pertaining to mileage, odometer, etc. If this odometer stopped working correctly the night you drove it home, there was obviously a problem. It is illegal to drive a car with a faulty odometer per the federal Odometer Act. The act also gives you the right to get your money back, hold the dealership responsible for the cost of fixing the problem, and report the vehicle with the DMV of having incorrect actual mileage so that it shows up on the carfax for the next owner.
I personally would demand my money back and get a different car. The dealership may say that they didn't know, that you purchased the car "as is," or that it is no longer their problem, but the Act states you have the right to purchase a vehicle with no misrepresentations. It falls upon the seller to either ensure the odometer was in good working condition AND accurate, or to fully disclose any discrepencies, inaccuracies, etc. It is then upon their shoulders to go after whomever they purchased the vehicle from to regain monetary damages. Just as if you were to sell the vehicle, it would then be on your shoulders to render the situation.
We were looking for a very specific vehicle - a mid 90's Toyota Previa with under 140K miles, preferrably under $3000. Unfortunately, this type of car is very hard to come by, and even harder to find with that low of miles. Most are exceeding 200K while being priced over $3000. We were resorting in a nationwide search due to the inability to find what we wanted. You couldn't imagine our surprise when we actually found a 95 Previa with only 105K only 2 hrs from our home! And to top that, it was priced at $2500 at a dealer.
We looked over this baby with a fine tooth comb. There were some wear and tear spots. There were a couple things not working, but nothing that affected the performance what so ever. The belts were at about half life. It needed 2 new tires. It purred like a kitten, though, running smoothly and quietly! We purchased the vehicle only 24 hours ago for $2100. This purchase was made without the ability to obtain a carfax, as we were passing through this town from an out of state trip, and we did not know any reputable mechanics in the area. We just wanted to complete our transaction without taking a chance that the vehicle would be sold from underneth us, and then get back home.
That afternoon, we arrived back home with our new purchase and decide to take her in for an oil change. While at the station, my husband found some maintenance records that we hadn't seen when first looking over the vehicle. There was a receipt from 2002 that indicated over 117,000 miles! Well, another issue was the oil. We had seen the oil was unusually thick, but knew this could happen when a vehicle sits awhile in the cold. We're in Michigan. It is cold right now. As soon as the oil change was complete, we were on our way to get tires.... and 4 miles down the road the engine started knocking so hard I thought it was going to blown itself right into the cab! We stopped, call the oil station, the manager came out; he crawled underneth and verified the plug, pan, and filter were all in place and tight. Also verified we still had oil pressure. There is nothing they did or we did within that 4 miles that could have caused the engine to knock.
We slowly made our way home. We pulled a carfax. The last reported mileage was out of Ohio's DMV at 185,146. The odometer clearly stated 105,195 upon purchasing. The dealer did not give us a mileage statement form to sign. Upon recalling the details, the sales person did not write down the mileage from the vehicle on any paperwork. We have the dealership in several violations of state and federal requirements.
This morning, 12hrs from the time of purchase, we promptly called the dealership demanding a full refund for the car and to make arrangements for them to pick it up. We have spoken with the US DOT odometer fraud unit, the MI Sec of State, have all complaint forms in hand, have enough proof to pursue civil action, and have spoken with our attorney. Our attorney advised for us to give them a 24 hour time span to rectify the situation via written notice. I have faxed them such a notice, which outlines our expectations and prospective actions. According to our attorney, MI judges also has the tendency to revoke a dealer license once fraud has become evident in a sale.
The dealer, however, is refusing to refund our monies as of this afternoon. We have gotten every excuse from they didn't know to it was purchased "as is" and we are stuck with it. The US DOT agent made it very clear that they can use any excuse they want, but liability and burden is on their shoulders. We will win our case .. but I just want my money back. This is frustrating.
Anyone know how long it takes to get your money back?? :confuse:
Here's the sentence structure in the State of Illinois at any rate:
ODOMETER FRAUD
720 ILCS 5/17-11
1ST Offense
Up to $2500 Fine &/or Up to 1 Year in Jail
2ND Offense
Felony Up to $25,000 Fine &/or 1 to 3 Years in Pen.
I am still finding out what penalties they can face in MI. I have found a lot of interesting things, though, including state law violations on the sales process.
If the dealership has any sense it will take as long as it takes them to drive to your house with a cheque.
$4000 less than what? Some price listed in a book? You can't believe everything in those books.
Why do you want to trade it in already? It's only 5 years old and just approaching middle age. I say drive it for 5 more years and be happy.
-mike
They should have ordered an odometer head with the correct miles on it. Not given you back the same odometer reset to 0. Did they tell you this is what they are doing? And did you agree to the repair. If you agreed then I don't think there is much you can do.
A small claims court will have no interest, esp if the dealer can produce your service file where the problem was diagnosed, you were informed of the problem and what they needed to do to fix it, you authorized the repair, then picked up the car when it was done and signed the repair order stating it was fixed to your satisfaction.
You can't sue unless you've lost something, but if you show your service records to the buyer in a fair market sale (not some dealer trade-in quote, which is not fair market value), I suspect the new buyer will not demand a discount, because he/she knows the actual mileage.
it's only when nobody can prove the mileage on an odometer swap that you're going to lose $$$, because, obviously, nobody knows the actual mileage.
The dealers low-ball you because they don't want the hassle of having to prove the mileage. For you, if you sell, this is no problem (I presume).
If I'm buying a car and there are any hints of a issues with the odo, I immediately walk away and suggest anyone buying do the same.
Also if you can't trade in the vehicle, then you basically have "lost" an avenue to get rid of the car when you want to upgrade.
I would definitely hold the dealer responsible for it and try to get whatever I can out of them. Personally? I'd turn around and replace the cluster with one of the proper milage.
The way that carfax works is that they compare the milage at every registration, if the milage goes backward, then it's flagged, if your state states the milage on your inspections it'll be flagged by both the state and carfax.
Bad situation all around.
-mike
But you'd have a hard time proving a financial loss I think. The avenue of "dumping" your car at a loss doesn't strike me as one worth defending anyway.
But it does suck, nonetheless. The dealer and owner should have both been on their toes a bit more here.
Wish I hit this forum a long time ago. I'll check back in with updates.
that car TMU (true mileage unknown) and hit the trade
or auction value real low................
That was his comments on Canadian cars resold in the US with a speedo/odo changeout from KM to mph. Even with
proper paperwork and disclosure with stickers from the
importers on the door jamb..............
That guy is in a tough spot come trade in time.......
Thru no fault of his own ! Dealers will RUN from that
vehicle.
Once the original owner is out of the picture, yeah, then it might become a problem for the lazy buyer not willing to check things out, or the lazy dealer not willing to show documentation, but by then it's not the original owner's problem.
Sure you might scare away the overly suspicious paranoid buyer but you don't want to deal with people like that anyway. Seems to me any reasonable person will accept the documentation on the car's true mileage and the sticker's records.
-mike
I need to check this out more.....
-mike
IN California, the mileage declaration form is right on the Certificate of Title. You can't get more TM than that.
I still think this guy is okay if he sells the car. I wouldn't worry about it. Yes, you have 30 seconds of explaining to do, but with the sticker, your service records and CARFAX, you've got a very good story.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
-mike
Even if it is the most ironclad explanation with the best documentation... Because.. when I get ready to sell it, all that is now third-hand information, and the next person will be even less likely to believe it..
With a hundred similar used cars out there, why take a chance on anything like that? IMO, the owner has a car with diminished value.
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Shifty, the reason being is that when an odometer statement is signed it reads "I______________________state that the odometer now reads" Meaning you are signing of on what the odometer says, not what the odometer says+the door sticker. And if the odometer is not the mileage then the box reading "I hearby certify that the odometer reading is NOT the actual mileage. WARNING-ODOMETER DISCREPANCY" must be checked. Which regardless of the documentation you have will scare future buyers
speedo/odo clusters for the flashy white faced Caddy
clusters. They have the vehicles existing odo reading
programmed to the new cluster at a speedo shop or some
say the GM dealer uses the Tech 2 machine to do it.
It can be done on the GMs but unsure about others.........
But then again I post about TMU and they think I am crazy!
Then 6 months down the road some of them are posting
about a "crooked" dealer trying to rip them off by
either lowballing their trade or not wanting it because
of the odo change or other screwy mods they did !
-mike
How can a car be branded TMU when there's a sticker on it that says the true mileage?
If you're going to tell me that the dealer who put the sticker on now tells the owner that the sticker might be falsified, I'm going to fall down laughing and call a lawyer.
well as lift kit mods on vehicles altering the speedo/odo readings and TMU.
Most of the guys on the GM truck forums report that the
speedo AND odos read lower with larger diameter tire/rim
combos.
But also there are other problems like SES and ABS
lights aglowing and related issues................
Then the problems down the road with state inspections
(like NY that fails your vehicle if ANY SES-ABS light
is on) and emissions test at inspection time.
Not to mention many dealers are getting gunshy of
reprogramming new tire sizes or doing a CPS (crank
position sensor) relearn (when the PCM is changed or
"burned" for a performance tune) for a fee.........
Prob. because of liability !!!!!!!!!!
But yet again if the dealer sells/installs that mod
then its usually a NO problem deal.........
This applies to my GM experience with mods and dealers
use of the Tech 2 machine.....YMMV !!!!!!!!!!!!!! :P
Hold up there deputy dog....
The cars odometer never stops working while its in the shop. It breaks and the customer proceeds to drive around until they discover the odometer isnt working, then they drive to the dealership to get it fixed. meanwhile nobody knows how many miles it wasnt working or how many miles it was driven...Thus TMU. I bet the majority of folks would have no idea their odometer stopped working...its just not something that many folks monitor like the gas gauge.
how trusting are you? This is car sales and not girl scout cookie sales. :P If a salesperson told you don't worry, there is a sticker on the door with the "real" mileage... would you believe him?? Remember, there isnt anything official to prove anything other than a hand written sticker and what the guy tells you....also would you pay the same as a car that doesn't have any odometer issues?
-mike
size trucks (not sure about the others).
Some deal with the ABS sensor that imbedded in the front
wheel hubs and the revolutions of the wheel don't jive
with the parameters in the PCM or ABS computers ??????
Then it throws a ABS malfunction light and PCM code.
But I am posting of NEW 04-07 GM full size trucks.
GMs ABS system (and other brands that use it)can be a
PIA and the brain is a issue
that costs $1000 bucks when it fails (often!)
But there are a few rebuilders out there that will take
care of your failed unit for less than $200 bucks!
(search fleabay for them)
Check out gm-trucks.com fullsizechevy.com
letstalksnow.com/forums
What kills me is most of these guys don't care anyhoo!
ABS unit failed (and when it does it makes all kinds of
crazy noises) Pull the ABS fuse ignore the light!
Larger tire size throws a SRS light......Ignore it and
put a piece of black tape over it !
Gee ya mean the speedo/odo reads lower?
Cool...........ignore it!
Among other things.................LOL!!!!!!!! :P