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Toyota Prius

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Comments

  • pb17pb17 Member Posts: 33
    A recent reviewer said his mileage was 42 mpg when driven with a heavy foot. Nowhere near the 50 or 60 mpg quotes. Can these low powered vehicles be driven safely on a freeway without some aggressiveness and still achieve the EPA figures? Others quote high mpg in current non hybrid small cars. How much of this is hype and what is the reality?
  • ontheroadagainontheroadagain Member Posts: 44
    I'm new to this board,so forgive me if I'm posting this in the wrong place...(for a second try) but I did use the search function for "snow" and found that on Aug. 6th john1701a posted saying his car had no problems with snow. I also think I read that AWD and 4WD are not as important as I'd thought and that it was all about the kind of tires you had on your car.. Is this correct and are there any Prius more owners who might tell me how their cars dealt with real snow?

    Thanks!
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > Can these low powered vehicles be driven safely on a
    > freeway without some aggressiveness and still achieve
    > the EPA figures?

    295 lb.-ft. of torque can't be called "low power". And 0-60 in 10 seconds will get you onto a highway without any trouble. The 2004 is a configuration that will please many.

    Low MPG from testers is commonly the result of squishy tires, overfilled oil, and speeds well above the limit. Driven & Maintained properly, higher can be achieved.

    My high-speed, long-distance, almost all highway road-trip last year (the 1,200 mile Hybrid Road Rally in my 2001 Prius) resulted in an average pump calculation of 48.5 MPG. More normal driving results in an average of 50 MPG for me... and I'm using E10 (10% ethanol), which isn't as efficient as pure gas.

    The 2004 Prius should get even better MPG.

    JOHN
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    The benefit from BRISK acceleration tends to surprise people.

    They expect speeding up slowly to save gas. So they try and try with disappointing results. In reality, it's exactly the opposite that they should be doing. In other words, they should drive like they normally would.

    Pushing the pedal down rather generously is actually more efficient. Engines run better when maintaining a constant RPM near the high end. Prius will accommodate that quite nicely, if you let it.

    When the light turns green, I'm almost always the leader of the pack. That doesn't harm my 50 MPG average at all; instead, it actually contributes to it.

    JOHN
  • kpoeppelkpoeppel Member Posts: 13
    kernick,

    I compared the prius to the corolla in the "is it time to buy a hybrid...are they up to the chore?" discussion. I came up with these figures:

    Costs for 150,000 miles:

    2004 Prius:
    Price: $20480
    Fuel cost @$1.70/gal: $4636
    Oil change cost: $500
    (needs less frequent oil changes
    according to john1701a website)
    TOTAL: $25,616

    2003 Corolla (with similar amenities and accessories like power windows/locks, remote entry, and automatic transmission):
    Price: $17,075 (although you might be able to get a discount like you said)
    Fuel: $7,612
    Oil Change: $750
    TOTAL: $25,437

    So if one compares the Prius to a Corolla with similar amenities, the Prius about breaks even over it's expected lifetime. Of course, there's always that time-value-of-money factor. You have to wait several years to make back up the higher initial cost in fuel savings. You may not want to keep the car for 150,000 miles. You may not want a fully-loaded vehicle either.

    On the plus side, a Prius can do electric-only driving at low speeds and it has a continuously variable transmission. Those features might make stop & go driving much more plesant, esp. if you have to do deal with that on a daily basis.

    Hope this helps.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > Oil change cost

    Classic Prius is 2,500 miles more than Corolla. 2004 Prius (which isn't listed anywhere yet) is the same.

     
    > On the plus side

    2004 Prius offers a little more leg room and a lot more cargo room.

     
    > might make stop & go driving much more plesant

    Actually, any type of suburb driving... since the high-end for stealth in the 2004 will be around 50 MPH. And might is an understatement, just go for a test drive and you'll see.

    JOHN
  • antzantz Member Posts: 13
    ...Deductable and head turner attention with upper class status!!!
  • funpilotfunpilot Member Posts: 66
    The dealer told me they could not take an order now as the region has not given them any way to put it in. They basically said until they get them, there is no way at this time. Oh well.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > The dealer told me

    Then you should go to a different dealer. Other people have been able to place orders recently. So that would seem to imply that the dealer simply didn't want to have to deal with one that would require such a long delivery wait.

    JOHN
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    That deduction is what will make more and more buyers choose a Prius over a Corolla or maybe even a Camry. Toyota says that it has Camry legroom, so that's what you compare with. Better cargo space too. (It's a hatch!!) A Camry LE vs Prius would look like this:
    Camry LE 20th Anniversary Edition:
    $22,000 base, well equipped: $23K
    Prius:
    $19,995 base, well equipped: $23-$24K.
  • dupiedupie Member Posts: 22
    John1701a
    I placed an order for a 04 Prius on August 26 what is the time line that I should expect a reply from Toyota confirming the order, or don't they do that for regular orders? just computer orders? I have been following the Yahoo Groups and Edmunds with your comments, keep up the good work I am getting smarter about Prius every day because of you.
    send me a reply to:ddvet61@aol.com
    dupie61
  • kpoeppelkpoeppel Member Posts: 13
    A Prius is only a little smaller than a Camry, yet the Prius gets nearly double the fuel economy. Over 150,000 miles, the Prius saves almost $5000 in gasoline and oil change costs. So if one needs a car that is bigger than a Corolla and costs less to maintain then a Camry, the Prius is a good choice. This is especially true if one does a lot of stop & go driving (which includes "suburb driving" where there are lots of stop-signs and traffic lights). There are the environmental benefits as well.
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    The Prius and Camry will both sell well because they're different people that will buy both cars. here are the buyers running into Toyota dealers:

    Group 1: Let's do the math. Shall we?
       This group is concerned with driving a car that will cost the least to own and operate and they calculate every single cost that they're going to be putting in to the car to see which one costs the least. They're educated buyers, who are very analytical and research carefully. In other words, they're Prius buyers instead of Camrys.

    Group 2: I'm gonna buy a Camry and no one will stop me.
       This group has always driven Camrys to work and play. They're very loyal to the Camry brand and would never buy an Accord even if it was a giveaway on the TV show Survivor. They're Camry buyers.

    Group 3: I'm gonna buy a Prius and no one will stop me.
          This group is very environmentally concerned and is looking for the best way to get to work will benifiting the environment. They're Prius buyers.

    Group 4: How much was that incentive again?
       This group is concerned with incentives, or the lowest purchase price of a vehicle. They don't care about anything else- just a low price for a nice and roomy ride. They're Corolla buyers.

    See where everyone fits into the Toyota buying camps? that's why sales won't drop too much on the Camry, since some people are loyal to Camrys and will never buy anything else. Prius too.
  • funpilotfunpilot Member Posts: 66
    My dealer just got the low down on how to order so I got package 9. They said to expect the car in late Nov or early Dec. We shall see. Also ordered the Solara for my daughter (SEV6 with side curtain airbags....) That should come in one to two weeks.
  • pb17pb17 Member Posts: 33
  • pb17pb17 Member Posts: 33
    150000 miles, to me, is 15k per year times 10 years. That's a lot of miles for one owner. Most drivers trade long before that. When will the battery need replacing and what will that cost? Also, what mpg's are being used for the comparisons? How does this affect the costs?
  • coolguyky7coolguyky7 Member Posts: 932
    Isn't there a group that wants an economical car which doesn't require many trade offs? You KNOW that the styling, hatchback functionality, cool features, LCD screen, ultra-modern design, and mileage (not to even mention the low emissions) have to count for something! Also, you aren't going to see a Prius on every corner like a Corolla or Camry.
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    some people like to blend in to the crowd- in other words, if the crowd is driving Camry and Corollas, then I guess I'll have to buy one myself. the prius buyer is concerned with the cost to own of the vehicle or is a member of the Sierra Club or is environmentally concerned.
  • xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi All:

    ___Being an 03 Corolla LE (Auto) owner as well as an interested Prius enthusiast, I might have a thing or two to add to the discussion ...

    ___On a dollar to dollar basis, the 03 and even the 04 Prius will never pay itself off in comparison to a Corolla. I have reached a high of 44.2 mpg in the Corolla with an average over the last 6 months of ~ 41. I have a 185 mile daily commute and the 44,000 miles on the Corolla now which should give a pretty good idea as to what kind of hwy mileage is available to those driving them. I will bring up the Instantaneous Mileage readouts helping the Prius owners after more commentary ... I have spoke with an 01 and 02 Prius owners that haven’t received even 45 on average as is the case with many of the Prius reviews scattered about the web. Even those writing about the Edmunds 01 Prius review received just 41 mpg combined cycle! Maybe my case is peculiar given the almost all hwy miles and the amount driven but I am probably the type that would most consider a Hybrid.

    ___Now let’s do some gas math ... The 04 Prius will receive ~ 48 mpg on the hwy. It supposedly won’t match the Corolla in a drag race even with all the advancements to 60 but that really doesn’t matter here since the average high mileage end user is after maximum economy, not maximum performance. My Corolla receives an average of 41 in the summer and ~ 37 in the winter (3 months of the year). Over 160,000 miles (4 years in my situation), the Corolla uses ~ 4000 gallons of fuel with a 40 mpg average. The 04 Prius driving the same distance over those 4 years will consume 3,333 gallons of fuel. Since I average 60 - 65 mph in the Corolla, I will assume the EPA estimates will hold with the 04 Prius giving me that 48 mpg at the same average speed. 666 gallons of fuel over 4 years at $1.75/gallon (all time highs) comes out to be just $1,165.00.

    ___As far as maintenance is concerned, since 30,000 I have been using Mobil1 w/ a SuperTech filter and have only done 2 oil changes (30,000 and 42,500) since the Synthetic switch. 12,500 sounds about right for the 04 Prius if I were to drive the same distance on a daily basis using 0W-20. Going much further before a change is beyond my level of comfort ... In other words; both are going to cost me the same amount in the maintenance dept. I don&#146;t know what the tires cost on an 04 Prius but the GY Integrity&#146;s on my Corolla are < $50.00 per and although they don&#146;t have the traction of some more expensive brands and or models, I will purchase them again because of their longevity. The fronts have just 5/32 and the rears have 6/32&#146;s. I just rotated them (they were rusted to the hubs however :( ) so I am expecting ~ 80,000 before a change is needed. I cannot say the same for the Prius as I believe they are using some low rolling resistance tires and will be a bit more expensive? Either way, I will assume the maintenance overall will be ~ the same although in reality, I suspect the Prius to be more maintenance intensive given the added electronics and drive train (CVT not withstanding?). I will give the benefit of the doubt and say the Prius&#146; battery pack at 160,000 is as strong as new. Many older Corolla&#146;s are driven this kind of distance and appear to meet and or exceed this comparison. Differences, $0.00 with the Prius&#146; Battery pack hitting the wall at that high a mileage over those 4 yrs. more than likely.

    ___Resale? I don&#146;t know for sure on this one but a 99 Corolla w/ 160,000 is still supposedly worth 5 - $7,000.00 according to Edmunds Used car price guide. From a newly purchased 99 Corolla LE in the $13&#146;s to $6,000 you lose just $7,000. On the Hybrid side of the equation, I have already read of a few newer model year Insight owners receiving ~ $3,000 in trade w/ far fewer miles and fewer years. We are speaking of a $17K loss here! I can&#146;t say what the 04 Prius will be worth in 98 w/ 160,000 but I am willing to guess that it will be worth considerably less than an 04 Corolla LE. There was a link provided in another thread to a California company selling used Hybrid&#146;s that showed significantly higher resale (or that is what they are charging anyway?) but in all reality, the Hybrid&#146;s will probably be bathing in red ink by comparison.

    ___Now for the initial out the door pricing. Apparently, the base 04 Prius will cost $20,500 + tax no matter where you live. I have asked and have only seen a Maximum of $500 under MSRP on a Prius. My 03 Corolla LE w/ ABS, Cruise, Mats, and All Weather Guard cost just $15,200. In my locale, I have to add another 6.5% in tax to the difference for a grand total of $5,644.00 in favor of the Corolla LE. Add another $100.00 for the 04 and you should be in the ball park at ~ $5,500 in favor of the Corolla.

    ___Tax incentives. I would receive the US tax deal giving me an extra $560.00 for 1 yr. ($2,000 in a 28% bracket). Clearly an advantage of $560.00 in favor of the Prius.

    ___Let&#146;s put it all together ... Even if an 04 Prius could hold half its value at 160,000 in 08, it would only just match the 04 Corolla LE. I have the feeling given the Insight owners experience that it would be much much less. In fuel, the Prius would save me ~ $1,165. In maintenance, it&#146;s a wash. In the out the door expense category, I would lose at least $5,500 by purchasing an 04 Prius. The Tax advantage would give me $560.00 in favor of the Prius. All total not including any loss at resale in comparison to the Corolla (highly doubtful) as well as the cost of holding an additional $3,775.00 over those 4 years, I lost $3,775 and this again does not include the probably extreme depreciation of the Prius over those 4 years and 160,000 miles.

    ___There are many other reasons to own an 04 Prius (SULEV, latest technology, more std features?) but in pure dollars and cents, the 04 Prius still cannott compete as has been mentioned time and time again ...

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
    ___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
    ___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
  • mdmetzmdmetz Member Posts: 27
    Basing resale on that of an Insight is pretty dodgy -- the Insight is a two-seater with limited market appeal (which is why it was advertised in the Washington Post at about $5,000 under sticker about a year after introduction), whereas the current Prius is closer to the mainstream, and the 2004 Prius even more so.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > I don&#146;t know what the tires cost on an 04 Prius but the
    > GY Integrity&#146;s on my Corolla are < $50.00 per

    The 2004 Prius uses the SAME tires, Goodyear Integrity's.

    JOHN
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > Since I average 60 - 65 mph in the Corolla, I will
    > assume
    > the EPA estimates will hold with the 04 Prius giving
    > me that 48 mpg at the same average speed.

    Actually, my 2001 Prius gets 48 MPG at that speed (using E10 too, which is a little less efficient than 100% gas). So the belief is quite HIGH that the 2004 will do several better. That would result in an additional savings of $450 to $650.

    On the Hybrid Road Rally last year, we drove even faster. Almost all 1,200 miles was highway. My average then was 48.5 MPG.

    Your point is still valid, owners that drive almost exclusively on highways (all fast, no commute slowdowns) won't gain as much as those that drive a mixture of city & highway (both fast & commute).

    JOHN
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > I will give the benefit of the doubt and say the
    > Prius&#146; battery pack at 160,000 is as strong as new.

    Don't forget that "strong" is almost meaningless for acceleration.

    Very little of the total overall capacity of the pack is needed for a quick burst of speed. So even with a deminished supply, you won't notice a difference. And since recharging at 45 MPH or faster only takes 2 minutes, the need for HEAVY acceleration more than once within that small window of time is quite slim. NORMAL acceleration uses electricity generated on-the-fly by taking advantage of optimum engine RPM efficiency, so that's entirely a non-issue.

    Lastly, the 2004 voltage from the pack is 207 volts. That DC power is converted to AC, then stepped up to 500 volts. If the pack is old and weaker, it will feed a lower voltage to the invertor. That just results in a loss of efficiency, the output will always be 500 volts regardless. So whatever may have been an strength concern there may have been with the classic Prius, simply doesn't apply to the 2004.

    JOHN
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > few newer model year Insight owners receiving ~ $3,000

    Insight is a very low-demand vehicle. There is not a large market for mini 2-seat cars. So the number of consumers interested in the NEW model is rather modest. That makes the interest in a USED one quite small.

    2004 Prius is a midsize vehicle. That market serves a totally, completely different audience.

    My friend trading in a 2002 for a 2004 with 18,000 miles on it was dealer quoted a little over $16,000 for the Prius he paid $21,000 for. That's not bad.

    I'll be trading in my 2001 with 60,000 miles on it. I'm expecting to get in the $12,000 to $13,000 range. That's not bad either, especially for a vehicle type that doesn't have a lot of actual long-term data available yet.

    JOHN
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > Even if an 04 Prius could hold half its value at 160,000
    > in 08, it would only just match the 04 Corolla LE

    It would be best to make generalizations when the hybrids are available in quantities just like vehicles in general, since that will affect the market as a whole.

    Corolla is tenatively scheduled to be offered as a hybrid in 2007. That will likely shake up the pricing of the used ones. Anyone want to give a guess how?

    JOHN
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    People are willing to pay for piece-of-mind. There is absolutely no guarantee that the price of gas will remain at reasonable levels. It could jump to $4 per gallon, just like it is in Europe now. That would push the benefit of high MPG significantly in favor of a hybrid. And remember, a hybrid doesn't have to be well loaded like a Prius. Corolla as a hybrid wouldn't have the extras that come standard on Prius, like the Multi-Display or Aluminum Rims or Automatic Climate-Control. That would easily drop the price by over $1,000.

    People are also willing to spend a little bit on the environment. That amount, even if small, shouldn't be ignored.

    JOHN
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    Really. if I go out to my local gas station and I suddenly see $4.50 a gallon for regular, don't you think I'd pay off my Odyssey, leave it in the garage and buy a Prius/Civic Hybrid? I already have a regualar Civic that after a $2000 trade and some bargaining was bought for under $9K.
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    was one of those DX with the Value Package sort. Here's what it includes over a Civic DX:
    Body Color door-handles
    CD player
    Air Conditioning
    Body Colored Trim
    And to think I bought it for just a little more than a DX.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    If everyone thought & felt the same way, things would be different. In reality, they don't. That's why when work benefits are offered, you get to choice between the pre-tax & post-tax options. Some choose pre. Some choose post.

    The same goes for car purchases. Just take a drive through my neighborhood. You'd be shocked by how many FFV vehicles you find. Almost none of them actually ever use E85 instead of gas. All they want is the ability to do it "if the need araises".

    Fortunately with a hybrid like Prius, you get the benefits of AT-PZEV-2 emissions and high efficiency all the time.

    JOHN
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    FFV cars, He, he, he........ Almost no one uses FFV anyways. So why do they buy it? If the need comes when it's time to put corn into their engine, then they're ready. Then again, FFV cars were created to help detroit sell more and more Excursions!
  • xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi All:

    ___Mdmetz, I only gave an example of an Insight owner reporting a problem with the resale of his vehicle but did not include the cost in the final equation. Hopefully what is posted below will help all with a true cost of ownership.

    ___For all, here is a breakdown with some reality thrown in ... John is expecting $13,000 from his $20,500 investment (not including the additional state taxes nor the $500 - $600 tax break savings) which is similar to what Edmunds would expect as well. Looking up a clean 01 Corolla LE w/ A/C, Auto, ABS, Power Windows and Locks, Cruise, and AM/FM/CD w/ 60,000 miles on it here at Edmunds gives a residual of ~ $8,420. The 01 Corolla LE with these options went for ~ $14,000 (I don&#146;t know where to find the exact actual new pricing?) not including state taxes. A clean 01 Prius w/ AM/FM/CD/Cassette and Cruise receives a residual of ~ $12,022.00. The 01 Prius went for ~ $20,500 when new. After all is said and done, the Corolla owner lost $5,580 on his 2 yr. old Toyota Corolla LE w/ 60,000 miles. The 01 Prius owner lost $8,478 on his 2 yr. old Toyota Prius according to Edmunds.

    ___In other words, the 01 Corolla LE owner can expect ~ $2,900.00 more residual from his investment than the 01 Prius owner.

    ___As for mileage, the 01 Prius was rated at 45 on the hwy. Getting 48.5 mpg on the hwy is comparable to me receiving 42 on the hwy in the 03 Corolla. 44 #&#146;s in the tires ... I am running 36. As for the 04 Prius&#146; hwy mileage, 51 on the hwy is a great number of course but I would say for arguments sake that is what you will receive. At 51 mpg over 160,000 miles, the 04 Prius should use 3137 gallons vs. the 03 Corolla&#146;s 4000. At $1.75, that equates to $1,510 over the 4 yr. comparison. Advantage, 04 Prius by $1,510.00.

    ___As for the battery pack, even Toyota&#146;s 04 Prius information shows the 04 Prius&#146; battery pack good for just 150,000 miles. What good means is anyone&#146;s guess as well if the 150,000 miles is over 10 to 12 years. Over just 4, I would expect it to be Ok at 190,000 +? My assumption here but I do know there is a replacement coming and using the Canadian Taxi drivers 200,000 mile experience over 1 to 2 years as a good comparison. The 03 Corolla? I have the feeling the engine will still be strong at 300,000 given the all hwy miles but I am only guessing? Its not a matter of the voltage regulator&#146;s holding voltage at the wheel motors, it&#146;s a matter of the Prius&#146; battery pack holding charge, charging in an efficient amount of time, as well as being able to continue to assist the vehicle in all city modes for the phenomenal mileage it is estimated to receive. I have yet to see a true cost for a battery pack replacement but it will need to be replaced at some point and I have a feeling it will not be cheap. Advantage, Corolla but I do not have a cost basis given the estimates of battery pack life as well as the unknown cost of the battery packs themselves. At 160,000 miles, I would say that a Prius is worth less than the Battery pack replacement itself thus leaving the owner with a dilemma. Replace the pack for more than the car is worth or taking it to the junk yard?

    ___A final tally as far as the 04 Corolla and an 04 Prius is concerned ... Advantage goes to the 04 Corolla owner by $5,500 for out the door costs, $2,900 for resale, (- $1,500 for fuel), (+ $350 for sales tax and - $560 in federal tax savings for a total $210 saved). Let us say $6,700 in total. I know there are minor errors here but I am just trying to get close ... Remember, this still does not include the cost of a battery replacement which the 04 Prius will need at some point once past 150,000 miles.

    ___Considering future Hybrid&#146;s, I can&#146;t wait. If the Acura MDX or Lexus RX330 (an RX400 and MDX is scheduled) would have been a Hybrid, I know where my money would have probably gone. If the Corolla was a Hybrid and made sense as far as the economics are concerned, I would own one as well. The problem is that so far, the Hybrid owner for the sake of the environment and/or our oil dependence is getting murdered in the pocket book. I purchased an economy car for economy, not to pay a lot more for the sake of making a statement.

    ___As for fuel prices, the highest I have ever paid is $1.75 for regular unleaded regular in this area. This was just last month. I don&#146;t know if we will have $4.00 a gallon gasoline next year or a more stable $1.30 but if we were to hit $3.00 per gallon, I think this country will be having more trouble with the millions of jobless created from such high pricing and most automobile owners won&#146;t be driving anywhere. At that price, I will be living in my car at work and not commuting except on my days off!

    ___As another data point, I have received an all time high of 32.4 mpg in our 03 Acura MDX 4WD SUV (260 HP motor in a 4400 # vehicle with ~ 1,500 #&#146;s of people and cargo) yet its hwy rating is just 23. You can read more about this here: www.acuramdx.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13012 . Anyone with an instantaneous mileage readout can achieve better than EPA estimates IMHO with a few fuel savings tips and tricks of their own. It&#146;s to bad the government didn&#146;t mandate instantaneous readouts in all vehicles. The US as a whole would more than likely have a much bigger congestion problem given the lower speeds everyone would be traveling but overall, I can bet we would achieve an instant 3 to 5 miles/gallon increase no matter the vehicles driven including Expeditions, Excursions, Suburban&#146;s, Yukon XL&#146;s, and Hummer&#146;s!

    ___I only posted to this thread because kpoeppel posted what I thought was misleading information in regards to the true cost of ownership of a new Corolla vs. a new Prius. I am all for the Prius as a technology demonstrator but until those Hybrid costs are more aligned with an IC based economy car, the 04 Prius won&#146;t be sitting in my driveway in the foreseeable future ... I am however considering a low mileage 01/02 Insight w/ CVT if one becomes available in my area sometime soon. I want to try and receive 90 + mpg as well ;)
     
    ___Good Luck to you all.

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
    ___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
    ___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
  • kpoeppelkpoeppel Member Posts: 13
    The Prius is not the cheapest way to get from point A to B. But remember that not all of its additional cost is due to it's hybrid powertrain. The Prius also comes standard with lots of features and accessories. I compared the Prius to a *similarly equipped* Corolla (see message #270 on page 15). To get a Corolla with as many features as a Prius comes standard, the price comes to about $17k. The total cost of each for 150,000 miles (the distance each car should go without needing major components replaced) was about the same. The Prius costs $3k more up front, but saves about $3000 in gasoline over the automatic Corolla. As for the tires, I think the Prius also uses Goodyear Integrity tires, so the tire costs should be about the same. I do all the math in a spreadsheet program so I can keep it up to date easily. For the gas mileages, I took the average of the city/hwy rating. For someone who does mainly highway driving, the Prius will not save as much like xcel said.

    As far as depreciation, what the new-car buyer loses the used-car buyer gains. So in an overall economics sense, depreciation does not add to the cost of either car. I also checked some used-car websites, and the 01-03 Prius' seem to be holding their value...I was hoping for a bargain!

    Maybe hybrid technology will be offered in economy cars when it becomes cheaper.
  • kpoeppelkpoeppel Member Posts: 13
    See page 122 of the "Is it time to buy a hybrid?" discussion, message # 2409. I did an in-depth comparison of the 2004 Prius to a 2003 Camry and 2003 Corolla. I couldn't find data for the 04 Camry/Corolla at that time. I wanted to have an idea of the cost of adding the hybrid powertrain alone. From what I gather from the comparison, the Prius powertrain adds about $3000 to the cost of the car. It nearly makes back this amount in fuel savings over 150,000 miles.

    So I guess it's a time-value-of-money issue...and a "do I need the power windows, locks, bells and whistles in my new car" issue...and a "will the battery pack fail before 150,000 miles" issue...and a "do I want to trade it in for something new in a few years" issue...etc.
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    Here's what I see:
    Initial Purchase Price:
    Camry LE: $21K
    Prius: $22-23K, depending on equipment
    Corolla LE: $18K loaded. (Leather, the works)
    Advantage: Corolla LE

    EPA Mileage:
    Camry: 26/30
    Corolla: 28/34
    Prius: 58/49
    Advantage: Prius

    tax credit:
    Camry LE: $0.00
    Corolla LE: $0,000.00
    Prius: $516 net gain
    Advantage: Prius

    Trunk space:
    Camry: 13-15 Cubes
    Corolla: 12.5-13 cubes
    Prius: 17 cubes (It's a hatch!!)
    Advantage: Prius

    Incentives:
    Camry LE: $1200
    Corolla LE: $800
    Prius: $0.00
    Advantage: Camry LE

    Grand Total:
    Camry LE: 1 Advantage
    Corolla LE: 1 Advantage
    Prius: 3 Advantages
    Any questions? Please post.
  • dainadaina Member Posts: 11
    I'm from the greater vancouver area.

    Can dealers only sell certain models that they like and not the others? 'cause I visited a dealer and they said they would not carry the new prius. Do they really have the choice?
  • little_pogilittle_pogi Member Posts: 149
    depends on the market demand in that area. They do have control on what they order and sell in their area. I'm sure there's a dealer in Vancouver that will accept an order for a 2004 Prius. Who would pass a chance to have a decent profit by just ordering a car for a waiting buyer.

    One thing nice here in Southern California (aside from the weather), there are over a dozen Toyota dealership within a hour's drive. One of the biggest, Longo Toyota, may have a 2004 model just for test drive purposes only.
  • dainadaina Member Posts: 11
    Yeah, but where can i test drive one?
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    probably Carson Toyota. Their inventory is huge, I've heard, so they'll probably have an 04' prius at intro time for testing.
  • mrvadeboncoeurmrvadeboncoeur Member Posts: 146
    in Canada, only Prius-certified dealerships can sell
    a Prius. (They need to have a specially-trained
    maintenance tech on staff, among some other things.)
    (US used to be like this, not any more, sadly...)

    I'll ask over in the Canada-Prius list that I know
    about, see if there's a particular dealer in your
    area to go to. In the meantime, you should call around...

    I've read that the Vancouver taxi driver with a
    Prius (322,000+km (200,000+miles) on his first 2001,
    traded in for a 2003) has a 2004 on order now.
    Yellow Cab #15 in Vancouver, BC. If he's got one
    on order, he must've ordered/bought it from somewhere...

    Note that it'll be at least mid-October before a
    2004 Prius is at a showroom for a test drive, though.
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    A prius certified dealer has a mechanic who is up to scratch on how to maintain, fix, and service a Prius and that same dealer must have at least one dedicated salesperson to the Prius model. All the dealers in my area are Prius Certified.......
  • pb17pb17 Member Posts: 33
    Can a diy'er do any maintenance on the Prius? Oil change, etc? Does the electrical/battery system require any maintenance? How about the engine?
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    I change my own oil (synthetic, of course) and the oil, engine, A/C filters. That's pretty much it. I'd do spark plugs too, but they haven't needed changing yet.

    In fact, the only other thing that needs to be done under the hood is changing the engine & invertor coolant. Owners can do that themselves too. But the steps for the invertor coolant are rather lengthy, not difficult though.

    That's it for propulsion. The electrical system itself requires no maintenance at all, ever.

    I assume there's a fuel filter, but no mention of it is made in the 120,000 mile schedule. So it apparently either rarely or never needs to be changed.

    JOHN
  • xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi Kpoeppel:

    ___You can barely option up a Corolla LE to 17K even with a Sun Roof, Leather, and Side air bags ... (all of these luxury options or not even available on the Prius). Than again, steering wheel controls and the LCD display cannot be ordered with the Corolla either. With the Prius, you pay MSRP. With a Corolla, you pay $100 to $200 over Invoice.

    ___Total Cost of Ownership to 150,000 miles? That is where the Prius quickly goes South. I have yet to see the price of those battery modules, but the price of $2,000 to $5,000 has been mentioned. The 1.5 L Prius engine will probably need as much maintenance or more as the 1.8 in the Corolla so there is going to be a huge disparity either with the battery replacement or the resale at 150,000 + in the case of the Prius. How much will it cost you? If you were a prospective buyer of an 01 Prius and it had 150,000 on it, what would you pay knowing Toyota says the batteries need replacement right now?

    ___The Prius saves $1,500 with gas at the highest price of all time as posted above. For a hwy commuter like me, $3,000 is extremely unlikely. The Prius cannot break even economically no matter how many miles you drive it unfortunately.

    ___As for depreciation, you bet it is going to cost the new purchaser dearly. Buy a new 04 Corolla or buy a new 04 Prius. You lose a far larger amount on the Prius no matter the savings in the mileage department.

    ___Now how about this for out of the box thought ... Since the 04 Prius&#146; 1.5 L motor is responsible for the 04 Prius&#146; hwy mileage, why not just build it without the electrics? Could Toyota tune it for 90 + HP like the 93 HP of the Honda Civic Hybrid instead of 78 yet still achieve 12.8 seconds to 60 matching the 01-03 Prius&#146; acceleration? This non-Hybrid Prius would probably weigh 50 - 150#&#146;s less than the 03 Prius with the loss of the electrics and would cost ~ the same as the Corolla yet release the same emissions as the Hybrid Prius on the HWY. In fact, it would probably cost much less given that it is made from a std. 1.5 L IC engine, std. CVT or manual drive train, std. interior/exterior, and without the LCD. I don&#146;t see the 01/03 Prius owners screaming about the lack of acceleration so why not? It would have the same emissions for the HWY commuter, same or better HWY mileage given the small losses not incurred in the extra drive train motors, and the interior/exterior appointments of a Corolla only costing much less? I would purchase that vehicle given the 04 Prius Hatchback&#146;s size, the now much less expensive price, same HWY emissions, a std. IC low TCO, as well as great HWY mileage of 51 MPG +! Than again, if the VW TDI&#146;s had a decent rep for quality and low emissions and the US had clean low sulfur fuel available to all, we wouldn&#146;t be talking the Hybrid&#146;s.

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
    ___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
    ___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    If you love your Corolla so much, why not buy a fleet for your business? It seems like you have a landscaping business and Corollas can be bought en masse. (Aka Cavalier style, in fleet)
  • xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi Jchan2:

    ___I don&#146;t love my Corolla either. It&#146;s decent but I would rather have a $15,200 relatively high end economy car that received 50 + on the hwy instead of just 40. I am just debunking the thought that there is an economic payoff for Prius owners vs. a Corolla owner at this point in time given what you and others have posted to date.

    ___As for my Landscaping business, what are you talking about? I use trucks for that.
     
    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
    ___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
    ___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > Since the 04 Prius&#146; 1.5 L motor is responsible for
    > the 04 Prius&#146; hwy mileage, why not just build it
    > without the electrics?

    Since fewer & fewer people are actually able to use highways at highway speeds, that's why.

    Gas wasted by commutes delays is a very real problem that shouldn't be ignored.

    Heck, even on my way up to northern Minnesota the cruise can't be set until after about an hour of driving *AFTER* leaving the cities. Traffic is so heavy that constant speed isn't possible. Every slow down and speed up results in a benefit provided by the electric drive.

    JOHN
  • kpoeppelkpoeppel Member Posts: 13
    Please understand that I am not telling anyone what to do with their own money. I'm sorry if my posts came off that way. I am not trying to tell anyone what kind of car they should buy. I was just trying to give the Prius a fair comparison since the fact that it comes standard with many options makes the hybrid system appear to cost more to the consumer than it actually does.

    As far as the battery, I acknowledged the possibility of the battery needing replaced after 150,000 miles. That is why I only did a comparison out to 150,000 miles. If the Corolla lasts beyond 150,000 miles w/o needing any kind of major repairs than it is the clear winner for holding it's value past 150,000.

    As far as the Price of a comparable Corolla, I got my numbers and options from toyota.com, the same place I got the numbers and options for the Prius. I just checked, and a 2004 Corolla LE automatic with option combination #2 (no moonroof) costs $17,105 including destination and handling. The Prius costs $20,480 with destination. These were the MSRP's, one might get a big discount on the Corolla. Unfortunately, dealer discounts are highly variable and hard to quantify, so I had to stick to the MSRP's.

    Gasoline costs over 150,000 miles:

    2004 Corolla (automatic) mileage: 29/38
    Gas consumed if city miles: 5172 gal.
    Gas consumed if hwy miles: 3947 gal.
    Fuel cost @$1.60/gal if city: $8275
    Fuel cost @$1.60/gal if hwy: $6315

    2004 Prius mileage: 55 avg.
    Estimated city: 59 mpg
    Estimated hwy: 51 mpg
    Gas consumed if city miles: 2542 gal.
    Gas consumed if hwy miles: 2941 gal.
    Fuel cost @$1.60/gal if city: $4067
    Fuel cost @$1.60/gal if hwy: $4706

    Costs to buy and fill with gas over 150,000 mi:

    2004 Corolla LE
    (with option combination #2):
    city: $25380
    hwy: $23420

    2004 Prius:
    city: $24547
    hwy: $25186

    So the prius saves about $800 if all city, but costs $1766 more if all highway.

    It was never my intent to demonstrate that the Prius is the cheapest car one can own...it clearly isn't. A base Corolla with standard transmission is much cheaper. A base Echo with standard tranny is cheaper still. My point was to try and see if the Prius hybrid system makes up it's extra cost in fuel savings. To do this, I needed to compare *similarly equipped vehicles*. According to the numbers above, the hybrid system in the Prius pays for itself in the city, but not on the highway.
  • xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi Kpoeppel:

    ___I am not here to tell anyone what to drive either. What I did do is pick up an 03 Corolla for $150.00 over invoice in July of last year. Picking up a Prius for $150.00 over invoice is all but impossible from my reads and questions posted here in the Prius forum. Using MSRP on a Corolla no matter where you live would be nuts but there are those that don&#146;t know how or cannot bargain through Costco, Sam&#146;s, there local Credit Union or whatever ...

    ___Secondly, I own that 03 Corolla LE w/ Auto and receive ~ 41 mpg on average. At $1.60/gal over 150,000 miles, I use 3658 gallons and pay $5,853. If I owned a Prius, I would use 2941 gallons over the same 150,000 miles and pay $4705. In other words, I would save just $1150 for a car that cost more than $5,000 more out the door even after the tax deal and another unknown large expense for new batteries at 150,000 miles. You wouldn&#146;t buy a Corolla with 150,000 miles if you had a $2,000 to $5,000 engine to replace yet you say many would purchase the Prius with the same mileage knowing what we know about its battery replacement date. You simply have to consider the Battery replacement when considering TCO. If you don&#146;t, you are vastly understating the TCO of an 04 Prius in comparison to a Corolla. What it comes out to be is an approximate $10,000 advantage over 150,000 miles in the case of a new Corolla in my case. Less for those that have more city travel but in the end is the same. The TCO of the Prius is much higher.

    ___And finally, as far as using cruise, I travel I94/I294/I55 in the Chicago area for my daily commute. I use cruise each and every day to maximize mileage. As long as traffic is moving, I receive what appears to be the best mileage at ~ 30 mph w/ the torque converter locked up and practically idling along at 1200 to 1300 RPM. Now I am wondering if you know what Increase/Decrease/and Resume are actually used for? Except for maybe L.A. and N.Y., there isn&#146;t much worse than what we have to drive through here in my locale.

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
    ___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
    ___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > Increase/Decrease/and Resume

    At a rate of several adjustments per minute, they quite simply are not convenient. Traffic is too heavy for that most of the time.

    Don't forget, time of day (literally within 15-minute windows) can have a huge impact on vehicle density.

    JOHN
  • xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi John:

    ___This is where I would tend to differ. I have the Instantaneous graph and mileage readouts in the MDX and watch the differences with and without cruise. There is an ~ 2.5 mpg difference and the only way to get the extremely great mileage in it is with feathering of the cruise. You remember your trick going up and down hills? The MDX acts the same way and I have used it in both the Corolla and X for the same reasons. Miles/gallon.
     
    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
    ___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
    ___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
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